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Ordinary Magician vs Keyblade Wielder [Marisa Kirisame vs Sora: Battle for Most Skilled on the Wiki || GRACE]

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You might want to tone it down, Fuji. I may have missed something, but nothing from what Bob has said warrants making the debate into something it isn't. You can disagree with him peacefully, irrelevant if he's missing things and being mistaken about others.
 
You might want to tone it down, Fuji. I may have missed something, but nothing from what Bob has said warrants making the debate into something it isn't. You can disagree with him peacefully, irrelevant if he's missing things and being mistaken about others.
Yeah, alright. I've deleted that post. A lot of things claimed exit the territory of missing things or being mistaken (eg; "the game is 2D therefore every attack is also 2D and dodging them isn't impressive") though, so it's not exactly easy to give the benefit of the doubt.
 

if i remember correctly, you need to use english in the wiki
Yeah, there as well may be no characters beyond light speed, or can bust a multiverse at ease, sure... I wonder when people will truly learn.
i have no idea what linking that will even acheive but i'd appreciate it if you actually read the argument


fiction is based on reality we use physics and irl logic to quantify feats, the feat provided is impossibe with what we consider "physically possible and logical" and thus it's supernatural and gives no basis to quantify the characters skills nor abilities, so it's ignored and will not be considered skill

but let's not derail the thread
 
"That's more of a limitation of Sora's magic, after all, Yozora used one of Sora's powers to do that first move, it's just that slow and compensates by homing into the target, note that Yozora follows up once it has exploded away, in any case Sora clearly still has on the phone whole Yozora is dashing to attack, and he's not shy of directly teleporting too."

...Okay, so Sora is dodging magic that moves very slowly. You're just making this feat look worse. In any case, it's still "taking a selfie before dodging" and not "taking a selfie and dodging at the same time".

"It's the whole gimmick of KHIII, and it's elaborated on in the next part of the skill blog."

Alright, so it's the weapon switching thing I was already cool with. That works for me.

"Well, Sora clearly is manually wielding them even if telekinesis is involved, note how they stop if he takes damage, he can't just recklessly swing them around as otherwise they'd get in the way, which in fact is the main practical issue of dual wielding in general, so being able to overcome that is a major coordination skill feat."

The blog you linked says it is specifically the coordination of one's body, so by your own admission this feat doesn't count.

"Multiwielding swords and doing danmaku with them are quite separate things by definition, yes, but also note how I used a comma to denote that I swapped to another related point, rather than using it as if part of a list. In any case, the focus of that feat was to show that Sora is customized to deflecting things from all directions (note how the blades come quickly above and below Sora at the same time). Like most danmaku, the move shines on overwhelming opponents with the sheer amount of blades tossed around, it's not like your Touhou girls even bother aiming their danmaku for every individual bullet to a moving target, instead just mainly focusing on doing visually pretty patterns first then just firing at around the area the opponent is."

Except... he's the one summoning the swords?? He's the one in control of where they spawn, so this feat isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be.

"Which in turn I've already argued to also (yes, I don't think this is usable for skill either) be hax that shouldn't be used here, lol."

Well it IS allowed, so my point stands. Either find more stuff to support his enhanced senses or concede the point.

"It'd have to involve IR given that he's also deflecting lasers behind and above himself, awareness that can't be only given with eye sight. It's relevant as each laser is lethal out of ignoring durability.
Xemnas' whole element is nothingness."


Right, so it's the whole "doing a thing without getting hit" thing, which Marisa can do with equal or greater danmaku for far longer periods of time (multiple fights across several hours vs like 30 seconds). Also, claiming that a character uses void hax, so therefore all of their attacks are void hax, is very fallacious (I could make the exact same argument for a new Touhou character, come to think of it). In any case, being aware that there's an attack behind him at all disqualifies this from being IR; It's, again, very good spatial awareness and reactions, but not IR.

"Uh... no, Sora doesn't retain abilities earned in Chain of Memories (namely including the teleportation), which is why the KHII key onwards just mentions that most abilities in KHI were kept at that point, and jumping higher than normal in coordination with teleportation (with the teleportation itself falling as hax and this shouldn't be the main focus, lol), makes it a rather nice skill feat."

Alright then, that works. I can accept Marisa and Sora being about equal in mimicry. "Jumping higher than normal" is still a stupid point for someone who can fly.

Tbh this was a lot shorter than I thought it'd be given a lot of your response was "yeah this is minor/invalid", so not only are many of these points still wrong... your original post should only be as half as long as it actually is, which makes the stomp even more apparent.
 
Oh yeah, regarding this...

This isn't even remotely impressive. Sora just dodges twice (lol) and stands perfectly still holding his Keyblade in front of him the rest of the time and automatically blocks everything. It is nowhere near the level of coordination he showed the first time around, and the fact that Riku was there the first time means we have 0 indication that Sora could replicate that feat on his own.

...So the laser dome feat might also be unusable. Sad!
 
I already voted, but I just want to make it clear to both parties here that I've been invested in both franchies for as long as I can remember, and people like Fuji can vouch for me that I've talked about KH quite a bit before. I even enjoy discussing it in a VS setting a lot, and clarified a few skill feats that Sora did, to Fujiwara before her initial counterargument.

With all that being said, the amount of skill needed in verse to do basic Touhou stuff already sets a high skill floor, and Marisa is the hardest-working character in canon. The fact that in-universe fodder fairies have perception and skill feats that blow many series out of the water says it all. She surpasses many blatantly powerful and OP people through skill, practice, and intellect, and she even skillfully wields powers that she shouldn't even be able to access to begin with, again, through sheer skill and intellect.

Sora's battle skills, awareness, and growth rate especially are nothing to scoff at in my opinion, but Marisa should sort of just blow him out of the water here.
 
To be fair, Fuji, he's probably talking about the KH2 version of the laser dome, which certainly is much, MUCH more impressive of a dodging and deflecting feat. See here: actually doing things to dodge the attack, imagine that
Yea, I know that much. My problem is that Sora only does all the fancy dodging and deflecting when he's with Riku, but when he's alone, he just kinda... stands there. So the KH3(?) feat is not that impressive because Sora doesn't do a whole lot, while the KH2 feat is rendered less impressive by Riku doing half the work (it's still a cool feat, though).
 
Yeah, there as well may be no characters beyond light speed, or can bust a multiverse at ease, sure... I wonder when people will understand...
We aren't exactly denying that something happened or that characters are capable of a certain feat according to their series. The main point is if it actually qualifies as skill for the purposes of the wiki which would be independent from whether or not it is said to be or treated as skill in that series.

I've also been wondering how flying would factor into the whole 2D Danmaku thing that Bobsican was talking about and it seems like as if it is a very strong counter argument after all.
 
Wait. The laser dome feat is, yet again, being wanked to the high heavens - You can literally see the lasers flash before firing, indicating which one are about to fire. This is, in essence, Sora seeing the world's most obvious tell before standing still and holding a stick. I... don't think he even deserves a place on the skill list at all, if this is how his feats keep turning out.
 
Wait. The laser dome feat is, yet again, being wanked to the high heavens - You can literally see the lasers flash before firing, indicating which one are about to fire. This is, in essence, Sora seeing the world's most obvious tell before standing still and holding a stick. I... don't think he even deserves a place on the skill list at all, if this is how his feats keep turning out.
you are just coping.
 
Oh yeah, regarding this...

This isn't even remotely impressive. Sora just dodges twice (lol) and stands perfectly still holding his Keyblade in front of him the rest of the time and automatically blocks everything. It is nowhere near the level of coordination he showed the first time around, and the fact that Riku was there the first time means we have 0 indication that Sora could replicate that feat on his own.

...So the laser dome feat might also be unusable. Sad!
The automatic part seems to be a gameplay thing since Sora does seem to move to some degree and the projectiles all come from multiple directions and are unlikely to simply happen to hit Sora's Keyblade, so he's presumably moving it accordingly to the projectiles. It may seem less fancy compared to KHII but less moving across distances would be more efficient stamina usage in a fight to begin with.

What do you mean by this? It isn't very clear.
If the Danmakus were all 2D like Bobsican suggested, then abilities that allow for 3D movement like Flight would allow for easy dodging for something like that which appears to indeed be the case here which is a strong point against the argument he put forth.

Wait. The laser dome feat is, yet again, being wanked to the high heavens - You can literally see the lasers flash before firing, indicating which one are about to fire. This is, in essence, Sora seeing the world's most obvious tell before standing still and holding a stick. I... don't think he even deserves a place on the skill list at all, if this is how his feats keep turning out.
That's hardly his only feat though? Have you forgotten Sora's Intelligence section? There does seem to be an indication though paying attention to all of that the entire time and memorizing that isn't bad either. The same indication isn't present in KHII.

you are just coping.
That's not a good response.
 
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If the Danmakus were all 2D like Bobsican suggested, then abilities that allow for 3D movement like Flight would allow for easy dodging for something like which appears to indeed be the case here which is a strong point against the argument he put forth.

[Alright, my bad. My Engrish misunderstood the construction of that sentence lmao]
 
The automatic part seems to be a gameplay thing since Sora does seem to move to some degree and the projectiles all come from multiple directions and are unlikely to simply happen to hit Sora's Keyblade, so he's presumably moving it accordingly to the projectiles. It may seem less fancy compared to KHII but less moving across distances would be more efficient stamina usage in a fight to begin with.
The moving is just the lasers pushing him back, I feel. Him blocking it like that is... weird, but his profile does say his blocking extends to short area around him so that's what I was working off of.
image.png

That's hardly his only feat though? Have you forgotten Sora's Intelligence section? There does seem to be an indication though paying attention to all of that the entire time and memorizing that isn't bad either. The same indication isn't present in KHII.
Oh yeah, I know that, I'm just not as confident in the rest of his feats if the laser dome one had so much missing context. The tells, the lack of getting one-shot as was previously claimed, the KH3 version not being nearly as impressive, etc. KH2 works as a feat, I just think it's not as impressive as Bob claims, since Riku is there and also deflecting the lasers. It's still a very impressive feat, though.

Alright, my bad. My Engrish misunderstood the construction of that sentence lmao
You... really should have read that more carefully. He did make a legitimately good point about 2D danmaku and how flight would just neg it entirely.
 
sorry, Mad just probably saw the feat and thought it was actually what's happening, but it was actually gameplay mechanics.
 
The moving is just the lasers pushing him back, I feel. Him blocking it like that is... weird, but his profile does say his blocking extends to short area around him so that's what I was working off of.
image.png


Oh yeah, I know that, I'm just not as confident in the rest of his feats if the laser dome one had so much missing context. The tells, the lack of getting one-shot as was previously claimed, the KH3 version not being nearly as impressive, etc. KH2 works as a feat, I just think it's not as impressive as Bob claims, since Riku is there and also deflecting the lasers. It's still a very impressive feat, though.
The radius around Sora while blocking is something that I didn't consider though he has already proven to be capable of tracking and deflecting individual projectiles from that attack in KHII though the approach Sora takes here seems to be different.

You honestly shouldn't just dimiss everything on such a spontaneous basis since he is hardly the only one involved with the verse or the evaluation. There is an element of Durability Negation involved though there is indeed no one-shotting. Coordinating together with someone else without getting into each other's way would also be skill though I guess it would have less individual merit.
 
You honestly shouldn't just dimiss everything on such a spontaneous basis since he is hardly the only one involved with the verse or the evaluation. There is an element of Durability Negation involved though there is indeed no one-shotting. Coordinating together with someone else without getting into each other's way would also be skill though I guess it would have less individual merit.
I mean


Is there?

And yeah fair enough, I'm still a little skeptical of things given how I don't know who worked on what though.
 
hey Mad, it seems you have a overt bias when it comes to certain series, like a certain Keyblade wielder. it seems obvious that you aren't arguing in good faith too.
 
I mean


Is there?

And yeah fair enough, I'm still a little skeptical of things given how I don't know who worked on what though.

It's part of how Xemnas' element works, so the answer would be yes. There just isn't any one-shotting which is as far as I'm aware not a requirement for Durability Negation. Another notable thing is that this scene doesn't seem to give any prior indication for which projectile is coming unlike with Sora.

I'm for example one of the people who have worked on that verse.
 
Hey Nehz, the issue is that Mad has a overt bias when it comes to certain series, and he's isn't arguing in good faith when he obviously has a bias against KH. it's very frustrating when it's clear.
 
Hey Nehz, the issue is that Mad has a overt bias when it comes to certain series, and he's isn't arguing in good faith when he obviously has a bias against KH. it's very frustrating when it's clear.
I'm generally just answering the points that are being brought up. The only thing I have to add right now is that Mad Dog of Fujiwara shouldn't be surprised if people begin to question everything regarding Touhou due to comments of just suddenly questioning everything about Kingdom Hearts or any other verse for that matter, so that kind of thing is just not good.
 
I'm generally just answering the points that are being brought up. The only thing I have to add right now is that Mad Dog of Fujiwara shouldn't be surprised if people begin to question everything regarding Touhou due to comments of just suddenly questioning everything about Kingdom Hearts or any other verse for that matter, so that kind of thing is just not good.
Hey, I'm not questioning everything in KH. Haven't bothered to look too deep into the stats or abilities, but they seem mostly fine from what little I know. I simply don't have the energy to try and downgrade another huge verse right now, nor do I even particularly care in this case, so I wouldn't worry about it.

And honestly... Yeah, I'm used to it with Touhou by now. Dealt with it from Malomtek, from Eldemade, from Dread; It's just kinda how it goes with this verse.
 
Hey, I'm not questioning everything in KH. Haven't bothered to look too deep into the stats or abilities, but they seem mostly fine from what little I know. I simply don't have the energy to try and downgrade another huge verse right now, nor do I even particularly care in this case, so I wouldn't worry about it.

And honestly... Yeah, I'm used to it with Touhou by now. Dealt with it from Malomtek, from Eldemade, from Dread; It's just kinda how it goes with this verse.
You certainly seemed to do that for at least the skill-related parts of Kingdom Hearts which is what was being discussed for the verse in this thread. The possibility of a downgrade depends on whether or not it would even be justified and the only way I see that happening is if something is wrong with our understanding of the cosmology and the scaling. There is more room for interpretation for the abilities but there tend to be some connections to the cosmology and scaling as well, so I wouldn't count on it.

That's how it sometimes is I guess.
 
another one of just because it's fiction doesn't mean physics are a myth type of thing


assuming she is as big as a human that is quite literally physically impossible to do unless she phases trough them, as nehz said, this is not something that can be acheived with skill, this is more on the supernatural side of things
Feats of dodging rain occur in canon from time to time to show how impossibly fast or impossibly skilled people are at dodging. An infamous example is Archie Sonic managing to run through a rainstorm, dodge every drop of rain in it and come out completely dry. Dante and Vergil in DMC also have an infamous feat of cutting every drop of rain in a large radius surrounding them. Physically possible? No. But still a feat of skill nonetheless.

a large part of Marisa’s character is her being a human and managing to stand alongside these powerful youkai and gods and through sheer skill and effort. Making the impossible possible, and that can be seen with a lot of feats she rather casually performs. It’s a narrative intent thing here, I feel.
 
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