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Ayyy another Nardo Speed Thread(The Lightning Round)

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Halkum145 said:
Damage's best argument is that lf is unavoidable and characters under spsm naruto's cannot be ls. but this is a mistranslation
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How is that my argument? Arc7 already brought up that translation point and I acknowledged it.

My argument is that 80% of the OP is irrelevant to what is actually being proposed. Much of the "supporting points" for the consistency of this don't actually exist.
 
Damage3245 said:
How is that my argument? Arc7 already brought up that translation point and I acknowledged it.

My argument is that 80% of the OP is irrelevant to what is actually being proposed. Much of the "supporting points" for the consistency of this don't actually exist.
Click to expand...
ok. Any reason not to join the current rel+ lariat?
 
Damage3245 said:
How is that my argument? Arc7 already brought up that translation point and I acknowledged it.

My argument is that 80% of the OP is irrelevant to what is actually being proposed. Much of the "supporting points" for the consistency of this don't actually exist.
Click to expand...
there's a databook statement with multiple interpretations that compare the Raikage's speed to light.

The Raikage is shown to be able to withstand moving at light speed in his Base form.

Slower Characters than the Raikage have shown light-speed attacks/Jutsu. In Mifune's case, his attack was shown being matched in travel speed by irrelevant Jonins' Jutsu with 1-tailed Nine-tails cloaks.

Meanwhile, a full-power KCM Naruto struggles to avoid Ay.

Minato, someone who Ay has fought several times can react to the movements of god tiers in the verse.

Edo Madara literally has a calc of him reacting and moving at 28% the speed of light.

I don't see why this is so contentious. There definitely is consistency.
 
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Damage3245 said:
My argument is that 80% of the OP is irrelevant to what is actually being proposed. Much of the "supporting points" for the consistency of this don't actually exist.
Click to expand...
Anbu stated light speed, many jutsu stated light speed, naruto dodges light fang while being held down, naruto dodges photon gun while sick and dying, lariat near light speed
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
Anbu stated light speed, many jutsu stated light speed, naruto dodges light fang while being held down, naruto dodges photon gun while sick and dying, lariat near light speed
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tbf the Anbu statement was a mistranslation and is actually translated to Lightning speed. Anbu being light speed is more out there tbh. I don't agree with it.
 
I’m in general agreement that words which are commonly used to describe similes don’t always denote the sentence, or statement to be hyperbolic or a figure of speech. However, the fact it’s commonly used to describe similes doesn’t help with making Bee’s statement any less contentious because it’s using language which usually describes the sentence as hyperbolic. But both interpretations are valid, it’s just within a vacuum, the interpretation that denotes the statement being more likely hyperbolic, or a figure of speech in nature would usually hold more true because of specific wording used.

However we aren’t looking at this statement in a vacuum, but rather, we have supplemental evidence which supports the interpretation of Bee’s statement being literal rather than hyperbolic. So let’s get into these scans.
  1. We have the Kakashi scan which explains the reason behind how Kakashi’s Raikiri gained its name, as explained by Guy, as a kid, Kakashi chopped through a lightning bolt with the jutsu, which caused the jutsu to be called “Raikiri” or “Lightning Cutter”. While this is supporting evidence for the claim, it isn’t good supporting evidence since the tier which “speed of lighting”, specifically the bolt generated falls under is an extremely vast tier, with characters who are hundreds of times faster than the speed of lighting not even reaching fractions of the speed of light, much less the speed of light itself. So while slightly useful, it isn’t the best evidence for Godernet’s claim. It’s just evidence that Raikage’s faster than the general speed of a lightning bolt. Which no one disagrees with.

  2. We have the Mabui scans which directly imply that because of Ay’s bloodline giving him a more durable body then average, it allows him to resist the kinetic force generated by Ay’s mass/weight traveling at the speed of light (which doesn’t even make sense from a physics standpoint, but it’s fiction, fiction does what fiction wants to do). This proves that Ay’s capable of enduring the force generated by this level of speed. I agree with this scan. Isn’t the best evidence for proving Bee’s lariat moves at speeds nearing SOL, but it’s slightly useful.

  3. Light Fang isn’t described to be this virtually undodgeable attack within the story, with the databook paragraph specifically explaining its cutting ability rather than its speed, with it being “unblockable”, not “undodgeable”. Just because the attack was released by Juubi Madara doesn’t mean it would hard cap the speed of specific attacks earlier on in the story, especially since the attack was casually react towards, and dodged by Six Paths Naruto. It’s like using Madara’s Sage Art: Lighting Dispatch to hard cap the speed of the verse to the speed of lighting. If zero contradictory evidence is provided then this debunk holds true imo.

  4. I agree with the distinction between combat speed and travel speed. Raikage and Bee could have Rel+ combat speeds with lariat, but not be capable of sustaining that level of speed for large amounts of time, or over vast amounts of distance. Rather, they can only release that level of speed within short bursts over short distances. Which is supported by the databook scan, and even the attack itself.

  5. If someone could provide either direct statements which connect Raikage’s speed with Mifune’s Issen Slash and Darui’s Laser Circus or deductive inferences which support Raikage being comparable, or above this level of speed then it’s usable, if we can’t do either then it isn't usable. I know the existence of the fastest shinobi statement but that’s contextually dependent. Was the statement itself made before Mifune’s Issen Slash or Darui’s Laser Circus?. Was it made by fallible characters or an omniscient narrator?. All of this should've been explained within the OP itself since it would’ve cleared up these uninformed questions i have as someone who isn't knowledgeable about Naruto.
Also to address Damage’s point regarding Darui’s Laser Circus, just because it isn’t currently accepted as SOL on wiki doesn’t mean it can’t be used as supporting evidence for one’s claim, the wiki’s ratings aren’t axiomatic, what actually matters if the ability, in actuality, has evidence for it moving at the speed of light, if it does, then it can be used as supporting evidence, if it doesn’t, or is contradicted, then it can’t be used, simple. However the burden of proof is currently on Godernet’s side since he’s making the positive claim right now, until he can provide evidence of Darui’s Laser Circus having similar properties of light, implying it moves at SOL, or has a direct statement telling such, it can’t be used as evidence for his claim.
  1. Edo Madara’s calc being used as support is fine.
After going through everything, and typing out this bible for over an hour now, I’ve reached my final conclusions. I’m basically in agreement with Arc, Option 3 currently makes the most sense given the evidence, I fundamentally disagree with a concrete rating since the statement has two valid interpretations, with the “it’s just a simile” interpretation usually being more likely true compared to the ladder. And the general lack of hard evidence. At best I'll agree with a “possibly” rating, it could change to a “likely” rating if more evidence is actually provided, or proven. But currently this is my stance. If more evidence is provided to the contrary then I'm also fine with disagreeing with the thread as well.

Thank you for listening to my ted talk, I didn't intend for this post to be this long, it just happens when you’re writing your thoughts down in google doc rather than on the wiki itself.
 
Deceived3596 said:
I’m in general agreement that words which are commonly used to describe similes don’t always denote the sentence, or statement to be hyperbolic or a figure of speech. However, the fact it’s commonly used to describe similes doesn’t help with making Bee’s statement any less contentious because it’s using language which usually describes the sentence as hyperbolic. But both interpretations are valid, it’s just within a vacuum, the interpretation that denotes the statement being more likely hyperbolic, or a figure of speech in nature would usually hold more true because of specific wording used.

However we aren’t looking at this statement in a vacuum, but rather, we have supplemental evidence which supports the interpretation of Bee’s statement being literal rather than hyperbolic. So let’s get into these scans.
  1. We have the Kakashi scan which explains the reason behind how Kakashi’s Raikiri gained its name, as explained by Guy, as a kid, Kakashi chopped through a lightning bolt with the jutsu, which caused the jutsu to be called “Raikiri” or “Lightning Cutter”. While this is supporting evidence for the claim, it isn’t good supporting evidence since the tier which “speed of lighting”, specifically the bolt generated falls under is an extremely vast tier, with characters who are hundreds of times faster than the speed of lighting not even reaching fractions of the speed of light, much less the speed of light itself. So while slightly useful, it isn’t the best evidence for Godernet’s claim. It’s just evidence that Raikage’s faster than the general speed of a lightning bolt. Which no one disagrees with.

  2. We have the Mabui scans which directly imply that because of Ay’s bloodline giving him a more durable body then average, it allows him to resist the kinetic force generated by Ay’s mass/weight traveling at the speed of light (which doesn’t even make sense from a physics standpoint, but it’s fiction, fiction does what fiction wants to do). This proves that Ay’s capable of enduring the force generated by this level of speed. I agree with this scan. Isn’t the best evidence for proving Bee’s lariat moves at speeds nearing SOL, but it’s slightly useful.

  3. Light Fang isn’t described to be this virtually undodgeable attack within the story, with the databook paragraph specifically explaining its cutting ability rather than its speed, with it being “unblockable”, not “undodgeable”. Just because the attack was released by Juubi Madara doesn’t mean it would hard cap the speed of specific attacks earlier on in the story, especially since the attack was casually react towards, and dodged by Six Paths Naruto. It’s like using Madara’s Sage Art: Lighting Dispatch to hard cap the speed of the verse to the speed of lighting. If zero contradictory evidence is provided then this debunk holds true imo.

  4. I agree with the distinction between combat speed and travel speed. Raikage and Bee could have Rel+ combat speeds with lariat, but not be capable of sustaining that level of speed for large amounts of time, or over vast amounts of distance. Rather, they can only release that level of speed within short bursts over short distances. Which is supported by the databook scan, and even the attack itself.

  5. If someone could provide either direct statements which connect Raikage’s speed with Mifune’s Issen Slash and Darui’s Laser Circus or deductive inferences which support Raikage being comparable, or above this level of speed then it’s usable, if we can’t do either then it isn't usable. I know the existence of the fastest shinobi statement but that’s contextually dependent. Was the statement itself made before Mifune’s Issen Slash or Darui’s Laser Circus?. Was it made by fallible characters or an omniscient narrator?. All of this should've been explained within the OP itself since it would’ve cleared up these uninformed questions i have as someone who isn't knowledgeable about Naruto.
Also to address Damage’s point regarding Darui’s Laser Circus, just because it isn’t currently accepted as SOL on wiki doesn’t mean it can’t be used as supporting evidence for one’s claim, the wiki’s ratings aren’t axiomatic, what actually matters if the ability, in actuality, has evidence for it moving at the speed of light, if it does, then it can be used as supporting evidence, if it doesn’t, or is contradicted, then it can’t be used, simple. However the burden of proof is currently on Godernet’s side since he’s making the positive claim right now, until he can provide evidence of Darui’s Laser Circus having similar properties of light, implying it moves at SOL, or has a direct statement telling such, it can’t be used as evidence for his claim.
  1. Edo Madara’s calc being used as support is fine.
After going through everything, and typing out this bible for over an hour now, I’ve reached my final conclusions. I’m basically in agreement with Arc, Option 3 currently makes the most sense given the evidence, I fundamentally disagree with a concrete rating since the statement has two valid interpretations, with the “it’s just a simile” interpretation usually being more likely true compared to the ladder. And the general lack of hard evidence. At best I'll agree with a “possibly” rating, it could change to a “likely” rating if more evidence is actually provided, or proven. But currently this is my stance. If more evidence is provided to the contrary then I'm also fine with disagreeing with the thread as well.

Thank you for listening to my ted talk, I didn't intend for this post to be this long, it just happens when you’re writing your thoughts down in google doc rather than on the wiki itself.
Click to expand...
All of this can be summed up as Arc FRA
 
ssgengar said:
Tbf it’s not that hard to believe, not sure how a fully powered naruto would be getting pressed this hard but then be able to dodge his fastest attack point blank, without the explanation of him holding back at least a little
Click to expand...
Because Shunshin is a massive speed amp. It also makes sense cause he was compared to Jonin Minato, and it's stated that V1 Ay is on par with Jonin Minato's base speed without Shunshin, so KCM Naruto~Jonin Minato~V1 Ay while KCM Naruto's Shunshin~Jonin Minato's Shunshin>V2 Ay is quite consistent.
Image
Image

ssgengar said:
Bc the idea of him deciding to use shunshin for the actual dodge wouldn’t make much sense either considering time was a big factor here. As desperate as naruto was to advance past the raikage he would’ve used it much sooner
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Maybe it just takes a lot of chakra and he doesn't wanna waste it.
ssgengar said:
Either way, if they’re both physical speed and applied in combat i don’t see what difference it makes anyway. Unless I’m missing something
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One is just speed, one is a specific technique. It's like Kaioken kind of, but just for speed.
 
Godernet said:
Option 3(The Arc Combo Meal): For those that believe Lariat should scale independently from V1(and possibly V2): Sub-Relativistic, higher with V1, Relativistic+ with Lariat(with room for possibly or likely based on consistency. How V2 compares to Lariat can be discussed here or in a different thread.)
Click to expand...

Just to note for option 3, I'm pretty sure that would be:

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic with V1, Relativistic+ with Lariat (possibly or likely on this part)

Not what is currently written there.
 
Damage3245 said:
Just to note for option 3, I'm pretty sure that would be:

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic with V1, Relativistic+ with Lariat (possibly or likely on this part)

Not what is currently written there.
Click to expand...
oh, wait yeah you're right I misread Ay's profile. My mistake, Thank you.
 
Godernet said:
Can I take it that you still hold the same opinions Damage?
Click to expand...
My current stance is against it, but if more staff members sign off on Option 3 then I'll compromise for that. Though I get the suspicion this is going to lead into discussions of V2 Raikage > Lariat, try and upgrade a ton more characters to possibly/likely Relativistic+.
 
The "probably or likely" part in option 3 is only used for greater consistency as a result of great contention. I still agree with direct scaling (the arguments discussed in the thread reduce the contention quite a bit in my opinion and are sufficient for direct scaling)
 
Damage3245 said:
My current stance is against it, but if more staff members sign off on Option 3 then I'll compromise for that. Though I get the suspicion this is going to lead into discussions of V2 Raikage > Lariat, try and upgrade a ton more characters to possibly/likely Relativistic+.
Click to expand...
I don't see that happening, Ay's top speed is with v2 + Shunshin, Ay even calls it "my fastest punch" or something like that. In this case, his classification in v2 would only be with Shunshin, C says that when he uses v2, that's why he will use Shunshin together to increase the speed even more. Anyway, nobody besides Naruto and Madara edo react to this, in Naruto's case, he needs to use Shunshin, and Madara edo is top tier so it's not surreal, no one else scale from Ay besides those mentioned, and for Naruto, it is a specific condition, and no one was shown reacting to his Shunshin in MK1.
 
In the case of the Bee, he would receive the classification for the Lariat, and only in the v1 and v2 of the transformations, as the citation in the databook uses it with the 8 tails mantle as an example. Only Sasuke and Kisame react to it, and I've seen calculations about it and none of them gave a result above the one used as a reference for the bee, so everything should be fine, it's just a reaction feat for Sasuke with the help of the Sharingan.
 
Damage3245 said:
Just to note for option 3, I'm pretty sure that would be:

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic with V1, higher with V2, Relativistic+ with Lariat (possibly or likely on this part)

Not what is currently written there.
Click to expand...
Fixed*

My stance atm is that Lariat > V2 as per my post
 
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