Ayanokoji (Classroom Of The Elite) Downgrade Part 2

[Vzearr]

Hey, this is a continuation of the first thread.

Abilities:​

Analytical Prediction: Ayanokouji qualifies for Analytical Prediction through:

(Could easily read all of Nanase's and Ryuuen's attacks)

Now I have (User Dinozxd) read both fights and there isn't any instance of Ayanokouji reading or predicting attacks). The only thing I saw that slightly reminds me of "predicting" or "reading" attacks is this scan where Ryuuen claimed that Ayanokouji predicted his attack and blocked it. This shouldn't get him Analytical Prediciton as Ayanokouji himself states that Ryuuen was attacking his abdomen several times already which made it easier for Ayanokouji to block the upcoming hit.

Intelligence:​

Now I'm not to erudite in intelligence scaling but I disagree with Ayanokouji having Extraordinary Genius levels of intelligence.

Extraordinary Genius is defined as individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers, and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations.

Ayanokouji qualifies for Extraordinary Genius through these things:

Did "Taylor Series" equations at a very young age in the White Room, stating that it involved Theory of relativity studies and Number theory

This doesn't qualify for even "genius:, the Taylor Series equations taught and learned in schools. People with average intelligence can do the Taylor Series Equations seeing as not everyone who does basic calculus is a genius (where the Taylor series equations are taught).

Called a genius among geniuses

He was called a genius among other 3 year olds with no statements of being geniuses. But this qualifies for genius intelligence imo not extraordinary genius.

Analyzed the pattern of a guessing game instantaneously and got a 100% which was a first.

This is impressive but not Extraordinary Genius levels of impressive.

By the age of junior high/high school, would have a mental age of 20-30

Not quantifiable for intelligence.

Can outplay a chess engine by the government that can play 20 Million moves per seconds and perform better moves

Well this one required me to do some research. Ayanokouji did this while in the white room when he was 2-9 years old. Classroom of the elite is set in 2015 ? Koji is 16 years old which means he would have been in the white room from 2001 - 2008 ish. Meaning the chess engine used in the example that can play "20 million moves per second" didn't even exist (until 2017) and its common knowledge that chess engines get stronger overtime and older ones are much weaker then newer ones.

I'd also like to add that I don't think this qualifies for Extraordinary Genius seeing as the strongest chess engine in 2008 was Rybka which had an estimated elo of 3238 which is only 356 elo above that of Magnus Carlsen so I wouldn't say chess engines from 2008 were vastly above current humans (they were and still are above current humans but not to a dramatic enough level that only an extraordinary genius could beat one).

I'd also like to show you this game where grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura actually beat Rybuka in 2008.

Also, it seems Mr.Bambu doesn't think beating a chess engine qualifies for the rating "extraordinary genius" (I won't be counting his vote on this so don't worry Its just something useful I thought I'd add)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Analytical Prediction - (Reads Ryuuen very easily and placed his hand in the places like seconds before Ryuuen even attacked there, Can think of every possibility and chooses the most optimal one and by extension he can predict the future to some extent by sheer mental calculations.)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Aside from EG which i'm not very good at it, I think this is a spite downgrade

Just saying

 

[Vzearr]

Analytical Prediction - Reads Ryuuen very easily

Reading someone's moves is different to seeing a move and reacting accordingly.

placed his hand in the places like seconds before Ryuuen even attacked there, Can think of every possibility and chooses the most optimal one and by extension he can predict the future to some extent by sheer mental calculations.)

Going frame by frame. He only moves his hand when Ryueen starts to wind up, proving he just see's the punch and has decent reaction skills.

Aside from EG which i'm not very good at it, I think this is a spite downgrade

Just saying

I do not care about this series and there is no reason I would have any spite against it.

Yes I said "I truly can't let this go under the radar because no one beats Goku." but this was obviously a joke as nobody cares about the version of Goku that Ayanokouji beat nor do I actually go under the thought that "no one beat Goku", its just a popular meme.

 

[Dinozxd]

First of all, I fully agree with this thread.

Secondly, this stuff was discussed for a lotta pages in the last thread so I don't think any new and actual useful arguments would come out here. I think we need a staff member to evaluate this.

 

[Vzearr]

First of all, I fully agree with this thread.

Secondly, this stuff was discussed for a lotta pages in the last thread so I don't think any new and actual useful arguments would come out here. I think we need a staff member to evaluate this.

I'd like to debate this with RoggerReggor seeing as he seems like a primary verse supporter, and as we didn't finish our debate in the past thread. I will make sure to notify staff though.

 

[Dinozxd]

I'd like to debate this with RoggerReggor seeing as he seems like a primary verse supporter, and as we didn't finish our debate in the past thread. I will make sure to notify staff though.

He is a primary verse supporter but he usually gets kinda hostile in debates which heats up arguments about the verse which in turn results in staff members having second thoughts about evaluating threads about the verse. That's what I'm mostly worried about...

 

[Vzearr]

He is a primary verse supporter but he usually gets kinda hostile in debates which heats up arguments about the verse which in turn results in staff members having second thoughts about evaluating threads about the verse. That's what I'm mostly worried about...

This is irrelevant to me. I've never debated him and I'm not going to take your word on whether or not somebody else is hostile unless you show me evidence.

Either way I still would like to discuss this with him so there is no need to extend this discussion.

 

[Worthless]

That's not the only instance in which it shows, and noted that he can predict movements.

Before I realized, I grabbed his right arm.

“—What? Who are you?”

Looking at his own arm, he looked at me with a sharp glint in his eyes.

“A-ayanokouji-kun!?”

“You, you were trying to throw her to the ground, right? It’s concrete here, you know. Just because you’re siblings doesn’t mean you can do anything you want.”

“It’s not admirable to eavesdrop.”

“Just let go of her hand.”

“That’s what I should be saying.” Vol 1 Chapter 7

“Ha!”

I understood that it had power to make me lose consciousness in one hit. With a confused look, he let out a breath and extended his right arm towards me.

If I grabbed his hand, he would probably throw me onto the ground. Instead, I slapped his arm away with left hand.

“Good reflexes. I didn’t think you would avoid every single one. You also understood what I was trying to do. Were you taught in some way?”

Finally stopping his attacks, he asked me a question.

“Yea, I did piano and calligraphy. In elementary school, I even got the championship in a music competition.” - Vol 1 Chapter 7

 

[Vzearr]

That's not the only instance in which it shows, and noted that he can predict movements.

Before I realized, I grabbed his right arm.

“—What? Who are you?”

Looking at his own arm, he looked at me with a sharp glint in his eyes.

“A-ayanokouji-kun!?”

“You, you were trying to throw her to the ground, right? It’s concrete here, you know. Just because you’re siblings doesn’t mean you can do anything you want.”

“It’s not admirable to eavesdrop.”

“Just let go of her hand.”

“That’s what I should be saying.” Vol 1 Chapter 7

"Before I realized"

This is just instinctive action I believe. Not analytical prediction.

“Ha!”

I understood that it had power to make me lose consciousness in one hit. With a confused look, he let out a breath and extended his right arm towards me.

If I grabbed his hand, he would probably throw me onto the ground. Instead, I slapped his arm away with left hand.

“Good reflexes. I didn’t think you would avoid every single one. You also understood what I was trying to do. Were you taught in some way?”

Finally stopping his attacks, he asked me a question.

“Yea, I did piano and calligraphy. In elementary school, I even got the championship in a music competition.” - Vol 1 Chapter 7

He literally states that Ayanokouji just has good reflexes, this is in no way analytical prediction.

 

[Dinozxd]

@Worthless The first instance you presented has really nothing to do with actual prediction at all. Manabu already positioned himself to Judo throw (I think) Horikita on the ground (shown more clear in the manga) which made Ayanokouji instinctively act and stop him (maybe an Instinctive Reaction feat?)

The second instance is written to showcase Ayanokouji's abnormal Reaction time (even Manabu himself states it) so I don't really see anything worthy there either.

 

[Worthless]

“Good reflexes. I didn’t think you would avoid every single one. "You also" understood what I was trying to do. Were you taught in some way?” - Manabu

Surprised you can all say that with confidence, considering how explicit the statements are.

 

[Vzearr]

Surprised you can all say that with confidence, considering how explicit the statements are.

Understanding what someone is trying to do isn't analytical prediction, its more of a sign that he sees the attack coming and moves accordingly. It comes with solid martial arts training which I presume Ayanokouji has.

 

[Worthless]

If I grabbed his hand, he would probably throw me onto the ground. Instead, I slapped his arm away with left hand.

If you disregard the entire context, then yes that's what it means. Lmao. But whatever I suppose it's ultimately up to the admins to decide whether to believe your bullshit or not.

 

[Vzearr]

If you disregard the entire context, then yes that's what it means. Lmao. But whatever I suppose it's ultimately up to the admins to decide whether to believe your bullshit or not.

Why is everyone on this site so hostile

 

[Dinozxd]

Why is everyone on this site so hostile

I think that made a good example for what I was tryna say about the supporters of this verse lmao

 

[TheShape03]

I agree with the thread.

If you disregard the entire context, then yes that's what it means. Lmao. But whatever I suppose it's ultimately up to the admins to decide whether to believe your bullshit or not.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I think Ayanokouji will need an entire thread on his Analytical Prediction, and about Extraordinary Genius...

This doesn't qualify for even "genius:, the Taylor Series equations taught and learned in schools. People with average intelligence can do the Taylor Series Equations seeing as not everyone who does basic calculus is a genius (where the Taylor series equations are taught).

Vzearrr, this must be the last time you take things out of context. He did it when he was like 4 or 5 (considering how we see a decent amount of students around him). It doesn't matter if an average schooler does it, doing it at age 4/5 and doing it in a high-school is a totally different thing. It isn't also the only thing he has; he has a much more knowledge about things than this. And if you don't believe, read this for god's sake.

He was called a genius among other 3 year olds with no statements of being geniuses. But this qualifies for genius intelligence imo not extraordinary genius.

I don't know how contradictory this statement is, being called a genius among 3-year-olds is a statement of being genius. Also, let me tell you his achievements around this age itself.

• He had consciousness right from the time he was a newborn, he literally still remembers the time when he was a newborn, and discovered his own hands.
• His thinking ability was also matured, he realized quickly as a kid itself that even if he cried, nobody would have come to his own rescue, so, from then on, he reduced his crying significantly.

For one, no kid of age less than 1 year has this much of intelligence, and second, his memory was also said to be perfect, because he absorbed information completely and didn't forget any time of his life, a huge part of the Volume 0 is basically narrated by him, including his own time as a newborn.

Well this one required me to do some research. Ayanokouji did this while in the white room when he was 2-9 years old. Classroom of the elite is set in 2015 ? Koji is 16 years old which means he would have been in the white room from 2001 - 2008 ish. Meaning the chess engine used in the example that can play "20 million moves per second" didn't even exist (until 2017) and its common knowledge that chess engines get stronger overtime and older ones are much weaker then newer ones.

I'd also like to add that I don't think this qualifies for Extraordinary Genius seeing as the strongest chess engine in 2008 was Rybka which had an estimated elo of 3238 which is only 356 elo above that of Magnus Carlsen so I wouldn't say chess engines from 2008 were vastly above current humans (they were and still are above current humans but not to a dramatic enough level that only an extraordinary genius could beat one).

Rybka isn't the best, currently, it is Stockfish. WR is futuristic, they adopted technologies such as Virtual Reality and stuff.

I'd also like to show you this game where grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura actually beat Rybuka in 2008.

And research? Chess.com itself says that Hikaru did it because of a flaw in the engine. You cannot really go below a draw in a match versus a chess engine. In fact, many GMs have themselves realized that it's impossible. I haven't seen Stockfish tie much, and I was talking about AlphaZero, something which was developed by Google and obliterated even Stockfish.

Also, it seems Mr.Bambu doesn't think beating a chess engine qualifies for the rating "extraordinary genius" (I won't be counting his vote on this so don't worry Its just something useful I thought I'd add)

He said "probably not". Arisu herself beat masters at chess at a young age, let's not talk about Ayanokouji who was no-diffing her. The another thing to be taken in view is how much time did he take. He was taking around 1 or 2 seconds while Arisu was taking a whooping 30 seconds, which for your information, establishes that Ayanokouji is 15 times qualitatively better than a grandmaster in processing speed.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, don't be in a misunderstanding, even if you do succeed in downgrading the chess feat (not the knowledge one because you cannot as it is stated), it will still not really let him get below the Extraordinary Genius, he not only has a ton of feats in both WMI and PSI which will never be replicated by humans, but he also has prediction feats, knowledge criteria and surpassing the upper limits completely satisfied, which again, is enough for him iirc.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Reading someone's moves is different to seeing a move and reacting accordingly.

Actually, it is the same. Analytical Prediction is reacting to initials which begin a move, I guess that's what you want to say.

Going frame by frame. He only moves his hand when Ryueen starts to wind up, proving he just see's the punch and has decent reaction skills.

Alright, let me tell you, you really didn't go frame-by-frame. I put it in the previous thread as well, and you guys only avoided debates from that point on.

I do not care about this series and there is no reason I would have any spite against it.

That much is fine. But I really don't like when you classify everything this character does as "even real people can do that" despite the fact that the case you find from RL is actually a ton times qualitatively inferior to what this guy does. For example, you found that schoolers are taught Taylor series, but you really didn't counter that this guy was not only taught Taylor series, but he was also taught stuff which is taught in the university and his knowledge was said to far surpass whatever a human could have learnt in their entire life, all at the age of 9. Secondly, normal WR student was said to reach a mental age of 30 by the time they were in junior high.

IQ formula is (Mental_Age/Current_Age)*100, so putting Mental_Age as 30 and Current_Age as 13 (typical junior high student age), you get an IQ of around 231, which in itself is an upper limit of a RL Genius possible, Ayanokouji is superior to each WR student, to the point where they surrendered when Ayanokouji had not even reached half of his entire training. It is a furthermore proof to why he should have it.

 

[Vzearr]

I think Ayanokouji will need an entire thread on his Analytical Prediction, and about Extraordinary Genius...

No. This can be handled in one thread.

Vzearrr, this must be the last time you take things out of context. He did it when he was like 4 or 5 (considering how we see a decent amount of students around him). It doesn't matter if an average schooler does it, doing it at age 4/5 and doing it in a high-school is a totally different thing. It isn't also the only thing he has; he has a much more knowledge about things than this. And if you don't believe, read this for god's sake.

That changes literally nothing other then he had the mental capacity of a high schooler at age 5, this still isn't qualitative for giving him extraordinary genius, or even genius.

I don't know how contradictory this statement is, being called a genius among 3-year-olds is a statement of being genius. Also, let me tell you his achievements around this age itself.

Yes this is what I said. But it isn't grounds for giving him extraordinary genius.

For one, no kid of age less than 1 year has this much of intelligence, and second, his memory was also said to be perfect, because he absorbed information completely and didn't forget any time of his life, a huge part of the Volume 0 is basically narrated by him, including his own time as a newborn.

This is just Hyperthymesia.

Rybka isn't the best, currently, it is Stockfish. WR is futuristic, they adopted technologies such as Virtual Reality and stuff.

Did you just completely disgard everything I just said ? He was in the white room from 2001 - 2008. There was no chess engine better then Rybka then ? Just because the white room is futuristic doesn't mean they have access to current chess bots, and adopting virtual reality isn't grounds for that seeing as virtual reality was around even before Ayanokouji was born.

And research? Chess.com itself says that Hikaru did it because of a flaw in the engine. You cannot really go below a draw in a match versus a chess engine. In fact, many GMs have themselves realized that it's impossible. I haven't seen Stockfish tie much, and I was talking about AlphaZero, something which was developed by Google and obliterated even Stockfish.

I'm pretty sure there have been chess engines that are similarly rated to Rybka (like mittens) who was rated around 3200 (100 less then Rybka) and we know multiple people have beaten mittens.

Also, don't be in a misunderstanding, even if you do succeed in downgrading the chess feat (not the knowledge one because you cannot as it is stated), it will still not really let him get below the Extraordinary Genius, he not only has a ton of feats in both WMI and PSI which will never be replicated by humans, but he also has prediction feats, knowledge criteria and surpassing the upper limits completely satisfied, which again, is enough for him iirc.

You would need to list those feats.

Actually, it is the same. Analytical Prediction is reacting to initials which begin a move, I guess that's what you want to say.

No, analytical prediction is when a user predicts the actions of others. Seeing a move is coming then reacting to it by blocking it is just a reaction feat.

Alright, let me tell you, you really didn't go frame-by-frame. I put it in the previous thread as well, and you guys only avoided debates from that point on.

I avoided an unnecessary debate. Your frame by frame is flawed mainly because of your arguments

"Ayanokouji still has his arm there" "Ryueen is shown attacking the same place"

What ? This is just not how it is. Ayanokouji has his arm in a defensive position where he could move it anywhere and quickly, he's also seen looking directly at Ryueen wind up so no its not analytical prediction.

"Ayanokouji placing his hand just so he can grab Ryueen"

This also isn't analytical prediction. We literally see Ryueen's arm being winded up, this is also the same thing I would do if someone is hammer fisting me, I'd simply put my hand to my head, quite a normal defensive move.

The rest of these follow the same principle. Ayanokouji see's Ryueen winding up and moves accordingly and roughly at the same time as him.

That much is fine. But I really don't like when you classify everything this character does as "even real people can do that" despite the fact that the case you find from RL is actually a ton times qualitatively inferior to what this guy does. For example, you found that schoolers are taught Taylor series, but you really didn't counter that this guy was not only taught Taylor series, but he was also taught stuff which is taught in the university and his knowledge was said to far surpass whatever a human could have learnt in their entire life, all at the age of 9. Secondly, normal WR student was said to reach a mental age of 30 by the time they were in junior high.

These aren't extraordinary genius level feats

IQ formula is (Mental_Age/Current_Age)*100, so putting Mental_Age as 30 and Current_Age as 13 (typical junior high student age), you get an IQ of around 231, which in itself is an upper limit of a RL Genius possible, Ayanokouji is superior to each WR student, to the point where they surrendered when Ayanokouji had not even reached half of his entire training. It is a furthermore proof to why he should have it.

You just proved he scales to only genius.

He said "probably not"

Probably not is practically the same as "no"...

 

[RoggerReggor]

No. This can be handled in one thread.

Tbh I still have a ton of work to do, and I don't really care if his AnPr is nuked as well, I am still finding scans for him being more supportive (even though the things I have found till now are legit still enough).

That changes literally nothing other then he had the mental capacity of a high schooler at age 5, this still isn't qualitative for giving him extraordinary genius, or even genius.

It changes the thing entirely. Tell me one person who did university level stuff in various fields while being of the age 4 or 5. You probably will mention William James Sidis, but again, I said various fields.

This is just Hyperthymesia.

Being hyperthymesiac doesn't explain the memory advantages he had. Hyperthymesia is still a condition which is not explaining everything he did. Also, hyperthemesia is related with life moments and not academic moments, so this argument isn't that good again.

Did you just completely disgard everything I just said ? He was in the white room from 2001 - 2008. There was no chess engine better then Rybka then ? Just because the white room is futuristic doesn't mean they have access to current chess bots, and adopting virtual reality isn't grounds for that seeing as virtual reality was around even before Ayanokouji was born.

I am going to turn this question against you. Did you completely disregard everything what the feat offers? He didn't do it in the WR, he did it in ANHS, meaning that it was in the 2020s or somewhere around that.

I'm pretty sure there have been chess engines that are similarly rated to Rybka (like mittens) who was rated around 3200 (100 less then Rybka) and we know multiple people have beaten mittens.

A 100 difference in ELO is significant when it gets above 3000, a single match earns you around 2 or 3 ELO, which means that you will need to win 33 or 50 matches in a row, depending on everyone's ELO of course. Also, Mittens is not a chess engine, it is a chess bot, a chess bot has a pre-determined behavior, and it isn't like a chess engine, which is adaptive to different game environments and just strives to win. It is possible to defeat Mittens by studying its move behaviors. Some chess bots legit go only for a queen, some are defensive, even beginner chess bots like Nelson have a fixed offensive pattern.

A chess engine is significantly different from a chess bot, don't equalize both of them. Rybka would obliterate Mittens just by exploiting its patterns.

You would need to list those feats.

His profile already does.

No, analytical prediction is when a user predicts the actions of others. Seeing a move is coming then reacting to it by blocking it is just a reaction feat.

I mean, it is exactly what I said. Analytical Prediction is not completely a supernatural prediction (even though it is, not to the degree you are thinking). You can analytically predict moves by studying and exploiting patterns and it might not be supernatural but just your adaptability regarding the ability.

"Ayanokouji still has his arm there" "Ryueen is shown attacking the same place"

What ? This is just not how it is. Ayanokouji has his arm in a defensive position where he could move it anywhere and quickly, he's also seen looking directly at Ryueen wind up so no its not analytical prediction.

He didn't see him wind up. He had started placing his arm upwards before even Ryuuen had finished the previous move.

"Ayanokouji placing his hand just so he can grab Ryueen"

This also isn't analytical prediction. We literally see Ryueen's arm being winded up, this is also the same thing I would do if someone is hammer fisting me, I'd simply put my hand to my head, quite a normal defensive move.

The thing is, you should have still regarded watching the anime clip. We don't really see Ryuuen winding up, I only captured it at the moment he had placed his arm already. The another thing which I want to mention is that Ayanokouji is doing this all at speeds which are relatively slower than Ryuuen.

The rest of these follow the same principle. Ayanokouji see's Ryueen winding up and moves accordingly and roughly at the same time as him.

Seeing the "winding up" and the initials before the "winding up" is completely different.

These aren't extraordinary genius level feats

You just proved he scales to only genius.

Vzearr, wth. I myself said that this was the upper limit of genius, but it is for a normal WR student, Ayanokouji scales way above them. It is just a supportive that a normal WR student is a high level Genius just by narratives themselves. It would be a waste of time for me to prove how Ayanokouji doesn't classify as a "normal WR student".

Probably not is practically the same as "no"...

It isn't. "Probably not" grammatically means "I am not sure, but I guess it most likely isn't.", it isn't concrete. And specially for the chess feat, because a lot of intelligence debaters were trashing on Ayanokouji's chess feat, many people, who can be said to be a lot more analytical, proficient in debating about intelligence than any VSBW person (I mean it), have made a document featuring his chess achievements. This basically proves that everything which is even on the VSBW is basically undermining his character. Do give it a read, it is a 28 pages big doc, and has a ton of details about stuff, how it works and RL things as well.

 

[wwereymy235]

Hey, this is a continuation of the first thread.

Abilities:​

Analytical Prediction: Ayanokouji qualifies for Analytical Prediction through:

Now I have (User Dinozxd) read both fights and there isn't any instance of Ayanokouji reading or predicting attacks). The only thing I saw that slightly reminds me of "predicting" or "reading" attacks is this scan where Ryuuen claimed that Ayanokouji predicted his attack and blocked it. This shouldn't get him Analytical Prediciton as Ayanokouji himself states that Ryuuen was attacking his abdomen several times already which made it easier for Ayanokouji to block the upcoming hit.

Intelligence:​

Now I'm not to erudite in intelligence scaling but I disagree with Ayanokouji having Extraordinary Genius levels of intelligence.

Extraordinary Genius is defined as individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers, and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations.

Ayanokouji qualifies for Extraordinary Genius through these things:

This doesn't qualify for even "genius:, the Taylor Series equations taught and learned in schools. People with average intelligence can do the Taylor Series Equations seeing as not everyone who does basic calculus is a genius (where the Taylor series equations are taught).

He was called a genius among other 3 year olds with no statements of being geniuses. But this qualifies for genius intelligence imo not extraordinary genius.

This is impressive but not Extraordinary Genius levels of impressive.

Not quantifiable for intelligence.

Well this one required me to do some research. Ayanokouji did this while in the white room when he was 2-9 years old. Classroom of the elite is set in 2015 ? Koji is 16 years old which means he would have been in the white room from 2001 - 2008 ish. Meaning the chess engine used in the example that can play "20 million moves per second" didn't even exist (until 2017) and its common knowledge that chess engines get stronger overtime and older ones are much weaker then newer ones.

I'd also like to add that I don't think this qualifies for Extraordinary Genius seeing as the strongest chess engine in 2008 was Rybka which had an estimated elo of 3238 which is only 356 elo above that of Magnus Carlsen so I wouldn't say chess engines from 2008 were vastly above current humans (they were and still are above current humans but not to a dramatic enough level that only an extraordinary genius could beat one).

I'd also like to show you this game where grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura actually beat Rybuka in 2008.

Also, it seems Mr.Bambu doesn't think beating a chess engine qualifies for the rating "extraordinary genius" (I won't be counting his vote on this so don't worry Its just something useful I thought I'd add)

For the chess feats. The story takes place in the future. (2030+)

Here's a document that goes more in depth with the chess feat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MSTeWYP318xytHGpu8QujQtJTSKTscZrpKJag-zvOW4/edit

 

[Vzearr]

Tbh I still have a ton of work to do, and I don't really care if his AnPr is nuked as well, I am still finding scans for him being more supportive (even though the things I have found till now are legit still enough).

Okay

It changes the thing entirely. Tell me one person who did university level stuff in various fields while being of the age 4 or 5. You probably will mention William James Sidis, but again, I said various fields.

The Taylor Series is learned in entry level calculus which is learned from grade 7-11.

Being hyperthymesiac doesn't explain the memory advantages he had. Hyperthymesia is still a condition which is not explaining everything he did. Also, hyperthemesia is related with life moments and not academic moments, so this argument isn't that good again.

Hyperthemesia is literally remembering (almost) everything. Even the most mundane things, so I do not know where you got that info from.

I am going to turn this question against you. Did you completely disregard everything what the feat offers? He didn't do it in the WR, he did it in ANHS, meaning that it was in the 2020s or somewhere around that.

Do you have proof of this ?

A 100 difference in ELO is significant when it gets above 3000, a single match earns you around 2 or 3 ELO, which means that you will need to win 33 or 50 matches in a row, depending on everyone's ELO of course. Also, Mittens is not a chess engine, it is a chess bot, a chess bot has a pre-determined behavior, and it isn't like a chess engine, which is adaptive to different game environments and just strives to win. It is possible to defeat Mittens by studying its move behaviors. Some chess bots legit go only for a queen, some are defensive, even beginner chess bots like Nelson have a fixed offensive pattern.

This guy defeats a 3000 ELO engine. Again, it isn't completely out of the realm of the smartest human alive to beat a 3200 rated engine.

I mean, it is exactly what I said. Analytical Prediction is not completely a supernatural prediction (even though it is, not to the degree you are thinking). You can analytically predict moves by studying and exploiting patterns and it might not be supernatural but just your adaptability regarding the ability.

That just isn't how it works.

He didn't see him wind up. He had started placing his arm upwards before even Ryuuen had finished the previous move.

That's a basic thing people do when in the position Ayanokouji is, would you leave your arm down ?

Seeing the "winding up" and the initials before the "winding up" is completely different.

He sees the winding up. We aren't going to agree so lets leave it to staff.

It isn't. "Probably not" grammatically means "I am not sure, but I guess it most likely isn't.", it isn't concrete. And specially for the chess feat, because a lot of intelligence debaters were trashing on Ayanokouji's chess feat, many people, who can be said to be a lot more analytical, proficient in debating about intelligence than any VSBW person (I mean it), have made a document featuring his chess achievements. This basically proves that everything which is even on the VSBW is basically undermining his character. Do give it a read, it is a 28 pages big doc, and has a ton of details about stuff, how it works and RL things as well.

Leave it to staff. I'm not reading a 28 page doc of info that isn't even wiki approved.

For the chess feats. The story takes place in the future. (2030+)

Evidence ? This directly contradicts what Rogger says to

Here's a document that goes more in depth with the chess feat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MSTeWYP318xytHGpu8QujQtJTSKTscZrpKJag-zvOW4/edit

Not going to read a 28 page doc that isn't even wiki approved.

 

[MarkGoldbridge]

Like I did with the first thread, I also agree with this.

 

[Dinozxd]

a document featuring his chess achievements.

Not reading allat

 

[RoggerReggor]

The Taylor Series is learned in entry level calculus which is learned from grade 7-11.

I seriously am not even keeping this to Taylor series, do you have stuff for people learning stuff so much that they learn it before they are in junior high, and the knowledge expands over several fields, so much that the knowledge has times said to be immeasurable and can never be replicated by a normal human.

Hyperthemesia is literally remembering (almost) everything. Even the most mundane things, so I do not know where you got that info from.

Hyperthymesia does not help one in academics, researches with a hyperthymesiac named J Price have proved that Hyperthymesia is not helpful in rote memorization. It is a selective ability and cannot be used to justify everything. Secondly, White Room itself was never able to find the cause for him having a perfect memory, so we nobles have no right to try to determine the cause of him.

Do you have proof of this ?

What do I need to prove exactly? The chess feat takes place in Y1V11, when Ayanokouji's a first year at ANHS.

This guy defeats a 3000 ELO engine. Again, it isn't completely out of the realm of the smartest human alive to beat a 3200 rated engine.

It is 3000 ELO but Stockfish on level 8 (probably a version which is close to what Mittens uses, but still having a better pattern algorithm). Again, this is basically being taken out of context. You find a source online which doesn't even come close to what Ayanokouji does and then begin debating how that source mentions the things which Ayanokouji did.

That just isn't how it works.

Listen, I am not making things up, I have read the entire Analytical Prediction page, just like I used to do my university textbooks (because I am hella paranoid), and then you tell me it isn't how it works. Are you still saying Analytical Prediction is only for those who have Precognition?

That's a basic thing people do when in the position Ayanokouji is, would you leave your arm down ?

Again, you are framing this as "everyone can do it", but everyone cannot, leaving your arm down is a better option by instincts, especially when you have been attacked there twice. Most of the people in these situations (if they are going serious and not like Ayanokouji who basically intends on losing somehow) will leave defense and try for offensive approach just so they can turn tides, so again, I am not really going to object what I am going to do.

He sees the winding up. We aren't going to agree so lets leave it to staff.

He doesn't. This is the clip, I am sure we aren't seeing different ones.

Leave it to staff. I'm not reading a 28 page doc of info that isn't even wiki approved.

Tbh I only asked you to because you were heavily misinformed and misjudging the feat, for a feat in the novel which you don't even know when happened so I assume you haven't read the novel. Reading the novel will probably be more than 28 pages and that, the feat itself shows some important things:

1. Ayanokouji can certainly outspeed the capacity of a chess engine heavily.
2. He can not only predict that, but also can see that he is going to win in 68 moves (in the first part) and then 90 moves to 120 moves (in the second part), depending on the moves Arisu made. He also literally predicted the amount of moves Arisu had herself to answer his moves, which means that he was certainly doing calculations on the same level as a chess engine does.

All of this is explained with calculations and a lot of stuff in the doc itself, if you mind reading that, that is.

Evidence ? This directly contradicts what Rogger says to

I am sorry, I really didn't have Here's the prologue which author releases with every volume (this if for V0):

I believe the feat takes place around 2015+Ayanokouji's age+4 = 2015+17+4 = 2036, so yeah, he wasn't wrong. wwereymy235 estimated correctly I guess.

 

[Vzearr]

This debate is exhausting, waiting for staff is just better imo.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Not reading allat

It might be funny to say this, but it legit took me around 15 minutes to read it entirely. I scale Ayanokouji's intelligence off-site in a much elaborate way (totally because the wiki doesn't have heavy standards for that) so I read it with an analytical POV, it will take much lesser time for you I believe.

 

[RoggerReggor]

This debate is exhausting, waiting for staff is just better imo.

Why suddenly back off from the debate?

 

[Vzearr]

Why suddenly back off from the debate?

Because we will never come to a conclusion. Especially for the analytical prediction.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Because we will never come to a conclusion. Especially for the analytical prediction.

1. The chess feats aren't debatable as they aren't replicable IRL even to a slight degree.
2. Hyperthymesia thing is completely a fallacy (for having researches which themselves said that it doesn't work in rote memorization and academics).
3. And analytical prediction also (isn't debatable), unless you were to come up with a really done up argument like "Anime feats don't work" even when the anime completely follows the novel and there's actually nothing in the novel which says that Ayanokouji cannot predict attacks.

So, except for this, I don't think there's anything left to clear up. So yeah, I guess you can basically explain the stuff to the staff yourself (even though maximum times you bring up an IRL case miles away from what the character from COTE does).

 

[Vzearr]

1. The chess feats aren't debatable as they aren't replicable IRL even to a slight degree.
2. Hyperthymesia thing is completely a fallacy (for having researches which themselves said that it doesn't work in rote memorization and academics).
3. And analytical prediction also (isn't debatable), unless you were to come up with a really done up argument like "Anime feats don't work" even when the anime completely follows the novel and there's actually nothing in the novel which says that Ayanokouji cannot predict attacks.

So, except for this, I don't think there's anything left to clear up. So yeah, I guess you can basically explain the stuff to the staff yourself (even though maximum times you bring up an IRL case miles away from what the character from COTE does).

It's all debatable, I just don't want to waste my time debating a topic if there is literally no benefit to it.

Also I didn't commit a fallacy I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also I didn't commit a fallacy I have no idea what you're talking about.

About hyperthymesia, I asked my real friend who studies classics and psychology and he said that hyperthymesia was basically the condition to remember moments of life which might not be important and is not helpful in academics. It is like if we are having some talk IRL and the second day I don't really remember what we talked about but I somehow remember how many strips were there on your stripped shirt.

You tried to compare a condition which was not even reported by WR itself, so that was the only possible conclusion I could come to. Read my entire last reply, I have pretty much cleared everything I believe.

 

[Vzearr]

About hyperthymesia, I asked my real friend who studies classics and psychology and he said that hyperthymesia was basically the condition to remember moments of life which might not be important and is not helpful in academics. It is like if we are having some talk IRL and the second day I don't really remember what we talked about but I somehow remember how many strips were there on your stripped shirt.

You tried to compare a condition which was not even reported by WR itself, so that was the only possible conclusion I could come to. Read my entire last reply, I have pretty much cleared everything I believe.

Yes I'm going to take your word on this !!

 

[Dinozxd]

It might be funny to say this, but it legit took me around 15 minutes to read it entirely. I scale Ayanokouji's intelligence off-site in a much elaborate way (totally because the wiki doesn't have heavy standards for that) so I read it with an analytical POV, it will take much lesser time for you I believe.

Using stuff that isn't even accepted in the wiki is just funny imo. I'm don't even wanna waste a minute reading that stuff man. Sorry.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The chess feats are accepted, That's why it's in the profile genius

 

[Dinozxd]

The chess feats are accepted, That's why it's in the profile genius

I wasn't even talking about the feat itself. The google doc is clearly not accepted so It's useless to even point it out in a debate.

Read my replies fully next time please

 

[Zefra3011]

In the Doc there are scans and they just explain them so at the end it's a legit proof, instead of explaining it in a message here Rogger simply sent the doc, if he did just ctrl C ctrl V and send it as a normal reply you wouldnt have used the "it's not accepted" excuse

 

[Dinozxd]

That doc isn't just about showing scans and explaining what they are? It has different interpretions about the feat that hasn't been accepted by the wiki when the wiki just says that Ayanokouji outplayed a chess engine.

And even if that wasn't the case, I still wouldn't care enough to debate this stuff as I have close to zero interest about intelligence scaling stuff. I wouldn't use it as an "excuse", I would just not care about it lmao.