Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokouji's new key and statistics - Part 2

[Dinozxd]

Ayanokouji says, "Will she kick it or destroy it?". For your interpretation, it will weirdly need to be "Can she destroy it?", which isn't the case over here. In fact, even him believing that she can do it a very good feat already. Secondly, if you were to kick something with enough AP, it will still break and destroy, so I don't know what are you thinking over here.

I'm not saying that Koji doesn't believe that she can destroy it. I'm just saying that he questions what she will do to the chair. Yeah, if you kick something away and it hits the ground then it might break or get destroyed but that wouldn't scale to your AP as it doesn't get destroyed directly.

A statement scaling not scaling as much as you want doesn't make it a bad assumption. We have no reason to go with the hyperbolic end when It isn't even confirmed. The best end to go with here is Fuuka kicking the chair and sending it flying which would give us like Street Level AP.

And again, why are we saying that she will destroy a part such as its foot? Destroy shows a significant amount of damage already, if the word was "damage" then I get it would have been good. Destroy would theoretically mean Fuuka damaging it to the point that it is rendered useless thereafter.

Breaking the leg of the chair would already make the chair pretty much useless if we're going with that.

I'm also still gonna repeat the argument I made before with more scans supporting it. The scans i found about this feat are these. There is no indication about Fuuka "destroying" or breaking this chair with one kick and Koji himself even states that he expects Fuuka to kick it away in the third scan on top of that.

And sorry to break it to you, she will need to break the part she's standing, there's like Kiriyama, Nagumo and some people who can actually keep up with her speed, there's actually no point in her placing her foot on the seat at first and then potentially think "Oh wait, I forgot I cannot destroy a chair from between. I will need to shift my leg towards the foot." kind of thing when she knows her own potential as well. Fuuka is not some idiotic character without much planning like Ibuki who legit thought that destroying an elevator door was a real thing she could do; she knows her limits.

Nagumo has no intentions on stopping Kiryuin as he himself states that she can break the chair If she wants (2nd scan). It can potentially take like hours for her to break it as the student council would just ignore her and let her do it.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

@Second22

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'm not saying that Koji doesn't believe that she can destroy it. I'm just saying that he questions what she will do to the chair. Yeah, if you kick something away and it hits the ground then it might break or get destroyed but that wouldn't scale to your AP as it doesn't get destroyed directly.

No, Ayanokouji believes that she can destroy the chair and that's the point. Secondly, weird but true, yes, things breaking or getting destroyed on the ground do scale to your AP, that's wiki standards, even though the ground influences it a lot.

A statement scaling not scaling as much as you want doesn't make it a bad assumption. We have no reason to go with the hyperbolic end when It isn't even confirmed. The best end to go with here is Fuuka kicking the chair and sending it flying which would give us like Street Level AP.

How is this even making sense lol?

Will she kick it or destroy it?, this thing legit just says that Ayanokouji knows that Kiryuuin can destroy the chair, simply because Ayanokouji knows the limits of his own verse and has been grading people's strengths a lot. "Or" is a thing which is literally related to a choice. Kiryuuin can basically choose what she wants to do with the chair, if it's her capability that she can, then she absolutely can. It isn't like you will personally go and straight up declare that Kiryuuin will just kick it, especially when she has a potential statement of her being able to destroy it as well.

Lowballs are when you are unsure about a high-end, and I can present many calculations to you where the work is a novel and the end chosen is a high-end even though you might want the low-end to get chosen. Sorry, I can't take this even seriously anymore if this is your entire argument.

Breaking the leg of the chair would already make the chair pretty much useless if we're going with that.

If you were to say something like that, then I am not going to answer this. The leg of the chair has like a ton amount of thread strength, which for your information wouldn't simply get broken. Secondly, it is a repairable damage, and not even close to what a word like "destroy" would suggest.

I'm also still gonna repeat the argument I made before with more scans supporting it. The scans i found about this feat are these. There is no indication about Fuuka "destroying" or breaking this chair with one kick and Koji himself even states that he expects Fuuka to kick it away in the third scan on top of that.

He expects her to kick it away, not like he said and took back the argument of her being able to destroy her.

Nagumo has no intentions on stopping Kiryuin as he himself states that she can break the chair If she wants (2nd scan). It can potentially take like hours for her to break it as the student council would just ignore her and let her do it.

Tbh I read the entire part of the Volume and never found anything which suggests the thing which you want to suggest. The only thing which Nagumo asked was if she would be satisfied with breaking the chair.

 

[wwereymy235]

The 6 professional fighters are stated to be stronger than the white room instructors who are implied to be on the same level of Shiba and Tsukishiro and he no diffed them whereas current Ayanokoji was having slightly difficulty with them

There is also the fact he himself stated he was getting weaker overtime due to the lack of intense training

False. Ayanokoji is stronger than his kid self. It would be prime koji that is stronger than him, 14 years old Koji.

 

[RoggerReggor]

False. Ayanokoji is stronger than his kid self. It would be prime koji that is stronger than him, 14 years old Koji.

I am the one who proposed that. I believe that the Island Arc Ayanokouji < 9-year-old Ayanokouji, due to the things which I listed a little above. I actually want someone to badly prove me wrong on this one honestly. I don't like a Kid Ayanokouji being better than a 17-year-old Ayanokouji myself.

 

[Dinozxd]

No, Ayanokouji believes that she can destroy the chair and that's the point.

The word "or" suggests that he is questioning what will she do. Also, Koji himself states that he expects her to kick it away lol.

Secondly, weird but true, yes, things breaking or getting destroyed on the ground do scale to your AP, that's wiki standards, even though the ground influences it a lot.

I remember that only the KE of the object you kick scales to you. And the ground influencing it a lot would meam that it does not scale to your AP lol.

Will she kick it or destroy it?, this thing legit just says that Ayanokouji knows that Kiryuuin can destroy the chair, simply because Ayanokouji knows the limits of his own verse and has been grading people's strengths a lot. "Or" is a thing which is literally related to a choice. Kiryuuin can basically choose what she wants to do with the chair, if it's her capability that she can, then she absolutely can. It isn't like you will personally go and straight up declare that Kiryuuin will just kick it, especially when she has a potential statement of her being able to destroy it as well

Well, I presented many scans of Koji and Nagumo just stating that she can kick it away or simply break it (not in one hit) so this whole thing kinda becomes pointless.

Lowballs are when you are unsure about a high-end, and I can present many calculations to you where the work is a novel and the end chosen is a high-end even though you might want the low-end to get chosen. Sorry, I can't take this even seriously anymore if this is your entire argument.

We are unsure about the high end especially when we have statements of characters contradicting the feat. I'm not saying that the high end can't be chosen no matter what, It's just not clear.

If you were to say something like that, then I am not going to answer this. The leg of the chair has like a ton amount of thread strength, which for your information wouldn't simply get broken. Secondly, it is a repairable damage, and not even close to what a word like "destroy" would suggest.

I just answered your argument abt "destroying meaning rendering it not useless".

He expects her to kick it away, not like he said and took back the argument of her being able to destroy her.

It does make the "Kicking it away" statement more reliable and that's what I tried to present there.

Tbh I read the entire part of the Volume and never found anything which suggests the thing which you want to suggest. The only thing which Nagumo asked was if she would be satisfied with breaking the chair.

Lol. The context here is that Fuuka is asking Nagumo for an apology about an incident and Nagumo tells her that she can break the chair if she would be satisfied with that. Fuuka wouldn't be satisfied if Nagumo prevents her from doing that instead of letting her do it. Simple.

 

[Dinozxd]

I am the one who proposed that. I believe that the Island Arc Ayanokouji < 9-year-old Ayanokouji, due to the things which I listed a little above. I actually want someone to badly prove me wrong on this one honestly. I don't like a Kid Ayanokouji being better than a 17-year-old Ayanokouji myself.

I don't think that those fighters scale above WR instructors. Ayanokouji just states that they are different in comparison to the WR instructors he fought. He even states that their movements are rough and not fluid unlike WR instructors which would make these fighters slower than WR insturctors. Koji himself states that he was not a match for them physical strength wise and also stated that he would lose the fight if he fought them straight up and that was why he used his speed, size, range (with baton) and pressure points advantage to beat them.

Shiba was already stated to be equal to Koji AP wise (I don't think that statement is limited to Koji's current state as well as he stated it in a general way) which he could match when he was a kid as well.

My final thoughts are are that Current Koji scales to his Kid Self AP and strength wise but his Kid Self scales higher than his Current self speed wise. Prime Koji scales above both in both categories obv.

 

[RoggerReggor]

The word "or" suggests that he is questioning what will she do. Also, Koji himself states that he expects her to kick it away lol.

Again, the word "or" is simply a choice of what she can do. He expects her to do so. You never really proved where did he take back his own words and mentioned that she couldn't destroy the chair again.

I remember that only the KE of the object you kick scales to you. And the ground influencing it a lot would meam that it does not scale to your AP lol.

No lol, the ground influences it to a point, but not like you expect it. The ground on itself cannot deliver a force. I argued with Cloud on a calc of Taiju's feat like months, months ago, and I was probably wrong on that. The ground influences the destruction in the way that it just increases the area, not like it increases the energy.

Well, I presented many scans of Koji and Nagumo just stating that she can kick it away or simply break it (not in one hit) so this whole thing kinda becomes pointless.

Tbf you never really showed how others wouldn't stop her. Suzune was still concerned about her foot on the chair. Rejoice, you are proving my own points xD.

We are unsure about the high end especially when we have statements of characters contradicting the feat. I'm not saying that the high end can't be chosen no matter what, It's just not clear.

Where exactly is a character statement contradicting the claim? If you are talking about Ayanokouji, he just expected her to kick it out of her way, nothing like he mentioned that she couldn't destroy it. You don't need to debate this Dino, not after Ayanokouji had a made a claim before already that she could destroy it.

I just answered your argument abt "destroying meaning rendering it not useless".

For a matter of fact, if you were to talk about how she would destroy the legs, I am afraid that would scale the feat a lot higher. You see, from the position she's in, that would mean exertion of a downwards pressure, which ideally would first be tackled by the chair seat, which easily contradicts your assumption, but that would even damage the chair material significantly, and would then affect the parts later on.

It does make the "Kicking it away" statement more reliable and that's what I tried to present there.

How exactly does it make it more reliable? For a matter of fact, reliability of a claim involves proving the other claim wrong or the supported claim higher. Expectations done from AnPr IA or awareness don't contradict it. Both are reliable.

Lol. The context here is that Fuuka is asking Nagumo for an apology about an incident and Nagumo tells her that she can break the chair if she would be satisfied with that. Fuuka wouldn't be satisfied if Nagumo prevents her from doing that instead of letting her do it. Simple.

I know the context, and Nagumo is just using his persuasion to trip Fuuka into not doing it more. You will understand if you read COTE volumes better and analyze Nagumo's character. But I will not dive into it. Your argument never made sense to me because yes, while Nagumo might not stop Fuuka in the first time, Fuuka and Ayanokouji both never predicted about how Nagumo wouldn't do that, so the one-hit stuff still makes a lot more sense, as Ayanokouji made that claim way before your assumption took place.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I don't think that those fighters scale above WR instructors. Ayanokouji just states that they are different in comparison to the WR instructors he fought. He even states that their movements are rough and not fluid unlike WR instructors which would make these fighters slower than WR insturctors. Koji himself states that he was not a match for them physical strength wise and also stated that he would lose the fight if he fought them straight up and that was why he used his speed, size, range (with baton) and pressure points advantage to beat them.

The reason why the instructors pulled out those fighters in the first place was because Ayanokouji had dogwalked every instructor in the facility. Secondly, Ayanokouji said "unlike previously, pure physical strength was no match for them", easily implying that he can overpower even the WR instructors with his pure physical strength.
Secondly, how are rough and spirited movements slower than fluid movements? Rough movements basically affirms, or rather makes the argument that the opponents were capable of fighting in an uphill battle.

Shiba was already stated to be equal to Koji AP wise (I don't think that statement is limited to Koji's current state as well as he stated it in a general way) which he could match when he was a kid as well.

No, I am sorry to break it to you but even current Ayanokouji's AP doesn't equalize with Shiba. He is referring to his holding back self and the amount of pressure he himself puts behind his punches. For a matter of fact, Ayanokouji believed that he could one-shot Shiba, so the entire point of this is bad.

My final thoughts are are that Current Koji scales to his Kid Self AP and strength wise but his Kid Self scales higher than his Current self speed wise. Prime Koji scales above both in both categories obv.

No, Kid Self would scale above Current Self in both AP and Speed. Current Ayanokouji was somehow breaking down in cold sweat against both Tsukishiro and Shiba, which basically implies that he wasn't still able to face two opponents at once, while the Kid Self could fight 6 people at once. Yes, you can say that he was using a baton or stuff, but he himself was confident that he could pull it off even using his fists.

 

[wwereymy235]

I proposed that.

Ayanokouji at the age of 9 could defeat 6 fighters, who narratively scale above White Room instructors. He was mentioned to have no changes in his pulse at the time when he was beating them. While, in Year 2 Island arc, he fought both Tsukishiro and Shiba.

Tsukishiro and Shiba can scale to other White Room instructors or be comparable to them, considering how they have similar histories with the Gen 5. Level 10 >> Level 4, and thus, the instructors Ayanokouji beats would be much superior to the instructors Yagami and Ichika were taught by, that can include the Tsukishiro and Shiba duo as well. However, narratively, Shiba scales below even Yagami, due to the fact that Ichika herself said that she could fight back Shiba if she wanted and even drive him away for a while, even mentioning that Shiba will actually have to try and get serious and come twice as hard., but against Yagami, she was a literal joke, he effortlessly negged her.

But still, let's scale both Tsukishiro and Shiba to the level of level 10 instructors. Ayanokouji beat them all lol. He even mentioned while fighting the 6 fighters: "Unlike previously, pure physical strength was no match for these guys.", which implies that Kid Ayanokouji possesses an incredible physical strength himself and can actually defeat instructors based on it, so Kid Ayanokouji can scale above even Tsukishiro and Shiba in LS. Not deviating from the topic, and coming back to it, Ayanokouji was somehow breaking down in cold sweat against Tsukishiro and Shiba, while against the 6 fighters, who individually scale above the instructors were beaten by him without a change of heart.

I believe this should be enough to say that Peak Level 10 Ayanokouji > 2nd Year Island Arc Ayanokouji.

Ayanokoji mentions that Tsukishiro and Shiba were one of the most competent fighters he’s ever fought. Also, 14 yrs old is his strongest form. 1 year later he enrolled in ANHS at 15. When he fought the 2 martial artists, he was 16, a few months short of 17. I find it hard to imagine he deteriorated in strength that much where not only is he weaker than his prime self but he’s weaker than his kid self.

 

[Dinozxd]

Again, the word "or" is simply a choice of what she can do. He expects her to do so. You never really proved where did he take back his own words and mentioned that she couldn't destroy the chair again.

I'm trying to point out how the kicking it away option is more reliable bruh

Tbf you never really showed how others wouldn't stop her. Suzune was still concerned about her foot on the chair. Rejoice, you are proving my own points xD.

Nagumo can just prevent them from stopping it. Suzune being concerned doesn't mean anything bruh it's not like she cares abt the chair's state or something. She was just concerned about her behaviour.

No lol, the ground influences it to a point, but not like you expect it. The ground on itself cannot deliver a force. I argued with Cloud on a calc of Taiju's feat like months, months ago, and I was probably wrong on that. The ground influences the destruction in the way that it just increases the area, not like it increases the energy.

The point is how it makes it easier for you to break something when you drop it from a distance. I probably can't break a brick with a kick but I can maybe break it if I kick it and send it flying it to the ground. That doesn't make me scale to the destruction of the brick.

Where exactly is a character statement contradicting the claim? If you are talking about Ayanokouji, he just expected her to kick it out of her way, nothing like he mentioned that she couldn't destroy it. You don't need to debate this Dino, not after Ayanokouji had a made a claim before already that she could destroy it.

The point is how Fuuka doesn't have to destroy it and we have more claims about the "Kicking it Away" option.

For a matter of fact, if you were to talk about how she would destroy the legs, I am afraid that would scale the feat a lot higher. You see, from the position she's in, that would mean exertion of a downwards pressure, which ideally would first be tackled by the chair seat, which easily contradicts your assumption, but that would even damage the chair material significantly, and would then affect the parts later on.

She doesn't need to kick the chair from the position her foot as literally NO ONE is stopping her from doing it. She can just kick the leg off (not confirmed that it would only take one hit as no one is stopping her) and it would only damage a small portion of the chair's leg. You don't understand how many options there are about making a chair unusable.

How exactly does it make it more reliable? For a matter of fact, reliability of a claim involves proving the other claim wrong or the supported claim higher. Expectations done from AnPr IA or awareness don't contradict it. Both are reliable.

Koji doesn't make the first claim via analysing her strength. He just analyses her demanour and makes the claim. So both options are unreliable I guess?

I know the context, and Nagumo is just using his persuasion to trip Fuuka into not doing it more. You will understand if you read COTE volumes better and analyze Nagumo's character. But I will not dive into it. Your argument never made sense to me because yes, while Nagumo might not stop Fuuka in the first time, Fuuka and Ayanokouji both never predicted about how Nagumo wouldn't do that, so the one-hit stuff still makes a lot more sense, as Ayanokouji made that claim way before your assumption took place.

It's not like he wouldn't stil prevent her from doing it lol. Even if there is a small chance of Fuuka not listening to Nagumo and attempt to break the chair, he would still let her do it as he wants her to be satisfied in the first place.

Koji himself doesn't straight up state that she can destroy the thing in one hit. The ppl standing there trying to prevent it from happening doesn't suggest that Fuuka can destroy or break the chair in one hit as well so I don't even understand why are you debating that.

 

[Dinozxd]

Debating the Fuuka chair subject is derailing as It's not even accepted in the first place. I believe that Koji scales higher than Ibuki by a lot so he should be Wall level anyway.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Ayanokoji mentions that Tsukishiro and Shiba were one of the most competent fighters he’s ever fought.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are both better than the 6 fighters Ayanokouji fought, especially when there are multiple reasons for the 6 fighters being stronger than both Tsukishiro and Shiba. Secondly, one of the most competent fighters is impressive but not when you know that Ayanokouji has fought a lot of opponents. Out of a 100, if they were in the top 10, they would still be one of the most competent fighters.

Also, 14 yrs old is his strongest form. 1 year later he enrolled in ANHS at 15.

Correct and precise.

When he fought the 2 martial artists, he was 16, a few months short of 17. I find it hard to imagine he deteriorated in strength that much where not only is he weaker than his prime self but he’s weaker than his kid self.

In the gym training, he mentioned that his strength has immensely deteriorated. Secondly, we have supportive evidences towards that.

 

[RoggerReggor]

No way you avoided that when I literally bought the entire volume just to address this debate. Anyways, here's the Japanese scan.

まず今から君に質問をする。返答次第では、この椅子に犠牲になってもらう」
蹴飛ばすのか、あるいは破壊するのか。
鬼龍院に足をかけられたあの椅子の命運が懸かっていることは確かなようだ。 桐山が帰る気配の無い鬼龍院を見て、改めて南雲に謝罪を伝える。
「相手が鬼龍院となると、下手に追い返すのは逆効果かも知れない。ここは一時的に2年 でも話を聞いた方が無難だろう」 ほりきたいちのせ

 

[Dinozxd]

No way you avoided that when I literally bought the entire volume just to address this debate. Anyways, here's the Japanese scan.

I don't understand what this proves as this is literally the same statement as the english version, but good job I guess.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I don't understand what this proves as this is literally the same statement as the english version, but good job I guess.

No, I actually have a nice statement. Nagumo in the Japanese said stuff which can be translated as "I don't think you will be satisfied by destroying the chair.", not anything which says that he would allow her.

And I was kidding, my friend has it.

 

[Dinozxd]

No, I actually have a nice statement. Nagumo in the Japanese said stuff which can be translated as "I don't think you will be satisfied by destroying the chair.", not anything which says that he would allow her.

I translated the japanese version you sent and that didn't come out. This isn't even the part where Nagumo was talking about Fuuka breaking the chair making her satisfied.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I translated the japanese version you sent and that didn't come out. This isn't even the part where Nagumo was talking about Fuuka breaking the chair making her satisfied.

It is in the another part.

 

[Dinozxd]

It is in the another part.

Yeah I translated that part too and Kiriyama just says that trying to prevent Fuuka would lead to a counterproductive result which kinda proves my point about the ppl trying to prevent Fuuka lol. It indirectly suggests that Fuuka is stronger than Nagumo too, maybe?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Yeah I translated that part too and Kiriyama just says that trying to prevent Fuuka would lead to a counterproductive result which kinda proves my point about the ppl trying to prevent Fuuka lol. It indirectly suggests that Fuuka is stronger than Nagumo too, maybe?

That "counterproductive" thing isn't referring to the thing you want to say, so you can rest assured. He's talking about the fact that Kiryuuin is a valuable resource. And no, there's no mention of him trying to prevent Fuuka. He legit said it would be counterproductive to turn her away, not anything like counterproductive to try to turn her away. Fuuka can be stronger than Nagumo or not, but anything, Nagumo is narratively much stronger than Fuuka if I were to say.

 

[Dinozxd]

And no, there's no mention of him trying to prevent Fuuka. He legit said it would be counterproductive to turn her away, not anything like counterproductive to try to turn her away. Fuuka can be stronger than Nagumo or not, but anything, Nagumo is narratively much stronger than Fuuka if I were to say.

Yes I told you the same thing. They are not stopping Fuuka if she tries to kick the chair. Simple as that.

Again, I don't wanna keep arguing about an unaccepted feat and derail the thread. The thread's about adjusting Koji's ratings and I already have my agree there. On a side note, I think i misunderstood the far higher stuff. That looks fine too ig.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Yes I told you the same thing. They are not stopping Fuuka if she tries to kick the chair. Simple as that.

By turn her away, he doesn't mean he will not stop her, it simply means that they will not try to get her out of the Student Council and at least let the 2nd years hear her opinion. Secondly, this was said after Ayanokouji made the destruction claim so I will not even try to justify it.

 

[Dinozxd]

By turn her away, he doesn't mean he will not stop her, it simply means that they will not try to get her out of the Student Council and at least let the 2nd years hear her opinion.

That still doesn't justify how no one wants to stop Fuuka. You told me that everyone was attempting to stop her in the feat where no one is attempting to do that.

Secondly, this was said after Ayanokouji made the destruction claim so I will not even try to justify it.

Koji after that states that he was anticipating Fuuka kicking away the chair which means that he was leaning on that option more than Fuuka destroying it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

That still doesn't justify how no one wants to stop Fuuka. You told me that everyone was attempting to stop her in the feat where no one is attempting to do that.

Listen blud, I am not going to address this any further. Ayanokouji said it like 2 sentences before that she can and maybe will destroy the chair, even before your supposed "Kiriyama and Nagumo wouldn't stop her" stuff took place, so there's not even any point in arguing this, as Ayanokouji completely said him when he was sure that she would be doing it in a single hit and Nagumo and Kiriyama WILL STOP her.

Koji after that states that he was anticipating Fuuka kicking away the chair which means that he was leaning on that option more than Fuuka destroying it.

He's just predicting that she will kick it away, it never really meant that she cannot destroy the chair now, especially when he has already said that she can, you never really proved the otherwise till now.

 

[Dinozxd]

Listen blud, I am not going to address this any further. Ayanokouji said it like 2 sentences before that she can and maybe will destroy the chair, even before your supposed "Kiriyama and Nagumo wouldn't stop her" stuff took place, so there's not even any point in arguing this, as Ayanokouji completely said him when he was sure that she would be doing it in a single hit and Nagumo and Kiriyama WILL STOP her.

Ayanokouji wasn't even implying that she can destroy it in the first place bruh. He was just going over possibilities what she can do to the chair. He never outright stated that she can destroy it or do it in one hit. It's not like he said "She can destroy the chair in one hit" or something like that. He just went over the possibilities of what she will do to the chair and was obviously leaning towards her kicking the chair away.

He's just predicting that she will kick it away, it never really meant that she cannot destroy the chair now, especially when he has already said that she can, you never really proved the otherwise till now.

Some logic please. Koji said that she was gonna kick it away which means that she can only kick the chair away in one hit, not destroy it. She might be able to destroy the chair (It's a possibility like Koji's elevator feat) but It for sure wouldn't happen in one hit and going by that, no person in the student council will attempt to stop her if she tries to do that because Nagumo already stated that she can break the chair if she wants after Koji said that.

 

[Amon.vl]

You should both stop arguing about the chair, it's so unnecessary right now.

 

[Dinozxd]

You should both stop arguing about the chair, it's so unnecessary right now.

Yes, I said that like 3 times.

 

[wwereymy235]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are both better than the 6 fighters Ayanokouji fought, especially when there are multiple reasons for the 6 fighters being stronger than both Tsukishiro and Shiba. Secondly, one of the most competent fighters is impressive but not when you know that Ayanokouji has fought a lot of opponents. Out of a 100, if they were in the top 10, they would still be one of the most competent fighters.

Correct and precise.

In the gym training, he mentioned that his strength has immensely deteriorated. Secondly, we have supportive evidences towards that.

Sorry for responding so late, I was at work at the time and didn’t leave till very late.


I reread the section where the 6 fighters come in. I identified that they didn’t bring them in because the instructors weren’t enough, it was just to give Kiyotaka a more real life experience of a fight. Also, Kiyotaka identifies their movement as rough and spirited instead of fluid like a martial artist. By this, we can guess that these 6 mercenaries were more like street fighters, so like Ryuuen. They’re wild animals in terms of fighting, not caring about honor or anything of that sort. Direct thought process of Ayanokoji, "These were opponents who were capable of irregular fights in an uphill battle rather than an even playing field. Unlike previously, pure physical strength was no match for them. The difference in muscle mass is obvious. They were the kind of guys that, in a head in fight, you’d have no chance of winning 100 out of 100 times against." Based on the description that Ayanokoji gave them, they were more on the muscular side compared to Ayanokojis 9 year old muscle mass. This brings me back to his fight with Albert where he couldn’t do any real damage because of his muscle mass, so he had to attack a weak spot. Ayanokoji does the same against these mercenaries. "In order to win, I must accurately hit the weak points of the human body. He had probably never fought a fighter of my stature before. I need to take advantage of the fact that I was small and short, making it difficult to face me." He never uses raw strength in order to beat these men. He used techniques and strategy to take them down as proved by what he said above.

 

[Catzlaflame]

It was strang to me that 9 year old Koji was stronger than his current self. Do you have any evidence to support that? I'm just wondering :3.

Y2V2:

However, while I was training to maintain my body everyday, my physical ability was slowly decreasing now when compared to when I was in the white room

 

[RoggerReggor]

Sorry for responding so late, I was at work at the time and didn’t leave till very late.

No worries.

I reread the section where the 6 fighters come in. I identified that they didn’t bring them in because the instructors weren’t enough, it was just to give Kiyotaka a more real life experience of a fight.

Yes, that's correct. Moreover, this statement can be used as a fact that instructors actually weren't enough, that thing can suggest superiority for some reasons, but I will address that later.

Also, Kiyotaka identifies their movement as rough and spirited instead of fluid like a martial artist. By this, we can guess that these 6 mercenaries were more like street fighters, so like Ryuuen.

Yes, they were described to have an experience of an uphill fight. Moreover, Ayanokouji mentioned that unlike previously, he could take them down based on his pure physical strength but had to use his speed and small size. Better speed can be suggestive towards a higher AP in verse wise. But I still wouldn't say they would be comparable to Ryuuen, they were probably much likely the members from Ooba (a Yakuza gang Ayanokouji's father, Atsuomi is somehow in contact with through his influence). If we were to say, that is like already pretty impressive considering how a Yakuza should be positionally much better than even Housen. But I simply cannot get them above characters other than Housen for now due to multiple reasons but only a single reason, so I will rely on the "unlike previously" stuff.
These are the quotes from the novel:

He said "unlike previously", which should easily refer to the previous brawls he had with other opponents. The brawls he had were with the instructors, as this statement was said like a few lines afterwards.

Ayanokouji himself said that he had defeated all the instructors who had taught him everything he had learn till he was 9.

Considering the "unlike previously" thing and him beating the instructors already, and the instructors being desperate to gather up in the room, I believe it all hints to the fact that even 4th generation instructors are somehow inferior to the 6 professional fighters. If the 6 professional fighters weren't better, then they simply wouldn't waste any time on having them fight Ayanokouji. Secondly, we also have the "you'd have no chance of winning 100 out of 100 times against thing". Of course, it wouldn't apply to Ayanokouji due to the fact that Ayanokouji could easily fight them without any difficulty, but this statement can potentially apply to any other person he has beaten due to the fact that there's supportive things here and there. So, it's almost like 4th gen instructors are inferior to Current Ayanokouji.

They’re wild animals in terms of fighting, not caring about honor or anything of that sort. Direct thought process of Ayanokoji, "These were opponents who were capable of irregular fights in an uphill battle rather than an even playing field. Unlike previously, pure physical strength was no match for them. The difference in muscle mass is obvious. They were the kind of guys that, in a head in fight, you’d have no chance of winning 100 out of 100 times against."

I didn't realize you had already quoted that lol.

Based on the description that Ayanokoji gave them, they were more on the muscular side compared to Ayanokojis 9 year old muscle mass. This brings me back to his fight with Albert where he couldn’t do any real damage because of his muscle mass, so he had to attack a weak spot.

I mean, he himself said that. That probably just means that the White Room instructors were like much inferior in a way that they might be hit and damaged through normal attacks instead of attacks which use Pressure Points.

Ayanokoji does the same against these mercenaries. "In order to win, I must accurately hit the weak points of the human body. He had probably never fought a fighter of my stature before. I need to take advantage of the fact that I was small and short, making it difficult to face me." He never uses raw strength in order to beat these men. He used techniques and strategy to take them down as proved by what he said above.

Yes. The only thing why I am setting on this conclusion is the "unlike previously" thing. Currently, I don't have any other reason to think the otherwise.

 

[wwereymy235]

No worries.

Yes, that's correct. Moreover, this statement can be used as a fact that instructors actually weren't enough, that thing can suggest superiority for some reasons, but I will address that later.

Yes, they were described to have an experience of an uphill fight. Moreover, Ayanokouji mentioned that unlike previously, he could take them down based on his pure physical strength but had to use his speed and small size. Better speed can be suggestive towards a higher AP in verse wise. But I still wouldn't say they would be comparable to Ryuuen, they were probably much likely the members from Ooba (a Yakuza gang Ayanokouji's father, Atsuomi is somehow in contact with through his influence). If we were to say, that is like already pretty impressive considering how a Yakuza should be positionally much better than even Housen. But I simply cannot get them above characters other than Housen for now due to multiple reasons but only a single reason, so I will rely on the "unlike previously" stuff.
These are the quotes from the novel:

He said "unlike previously", which should easily refer to the previous brawls he had with other opponents. The brawls he had were with the instructors, as this statement was said like a few lines afterwards.

Ayanokouji himself said that he had defeated all the instructors who had taught him everything he had learn till he was 9.

Considering the "unlike previously" thing and him beating the instructors already, and the instructors being desperate to gather up in the room, I believe it all hints to the fact that even 4th generation instructors are somehow inferior to the 6 professional fighters. If the 6 professional fighters weren't better, then they simply wouldn't waste any time on having them fight Ayanokouji. Secondly, we also have the "you'd have no chance of winning 100 out of 100 times against thing". Of course, it wouldn't apply to Ayanokouji due to the fact that Ayanokouji could easily fight them without any difficulty, but this statement can potentially apply to any other person he has beaten due to the fact that there's supportive things here and there. So, it's almost like 4th gen instructors are inferior to Current Ayanokouji.

I didn't realize you had already quoted that lol.

I mean, he himself said that. That probably just means that the White Room instructors were like much inferior in a way that they might be hit and damaged through normal attacks instead of attacks which use Pressure Points.

Yes. The only thing why I am setting on this conclusion is the "unlike previously" thing. Currently, I don't have any other reason to think the otherwise.

With the unlike previously, I suggested that the reason he has to use speed is because of their muscle mass. An ideal martial artists needs to be physically strong yes, but they need lower muscle mass in order to be quick and agile. These people were not martial artists, most likely Yakuza/Street fighters. Ayanokoji is no ordinary 9 year old so his pure physical strength along with his speed overwhelmed his opponents. In this fight, he has to rely and focus purely on speed because he can't physically hurt them without hitting their weak spots. They needed 6 of these Yakuza/Street Fighters to be at least at the level of the instructors to a little stronger. It is much harder to fight multiple people at once then it is to fight 1 at a time. It hasn't been suggested or said that they had multiple instructors fight Ayanokoji at the same time yet. My guess is that they later on had the instructors gang up on him which developed his Prime key, he wouldn't be able to get stronger than he is now otherwise.

 

[RoggerReggor]

With the unlike previously, I suggested that the reason he has to use speed is because of their muscle mass. An ideal martial artists needs to be physically strong yes, but they need lower muscle mass in order to be quick and agile. These people were not martial artists, most likely Yakuza/Street fighters. Ayanokoji is no ordinary 9 year old so his pure physical strength along with his speed overwhelmed his opponents. In this fight, he has to rely and focus purely on speed because he can't physically hurt them without hitting their weak spots. They needed 6 of these Yakuza/Street Fighters to be at least at the level of the instructors to a little stronger. It is much harder to fight multiple people at once then it is to fight 1 at a time. It hasn't been suggested or said that they had multiple instructors fight Ayanokoji at the same time yet. My guess is that they later on had the instructors gang up on him which developed his Prime key, he wouldn't be able to get stronger than he is now otherwise.

I believe we share different views (wow, I realized that quick), I guess I will try to affirm myself better.

1. For the first point, you will need to prove that the instructors are faster than the fighters. Secondly, these people weren't Yakuza/Street fighters yes. But we cannot say that when the verse doesn't say or has never implied that people with such fighting styles are somehow inferior. People like Housen and Ryuuen who are pure street fighters have overpowered martial artists like Suzune. Housen was implied by Ayanokouji himself to be superior to Manabu, whom I don't need to justify, is an experienced martial artist with black belts and even dans on top of them.
2. Secondly, the thing of them needing 6 Yakuza/Street fighters to equalize the level of the instructors would need heavy proofs as well. For the fact, it probably not the first time Ayanokouji had defeated multiple people in a fight. White Room would never do that. They will first need to check if he actually can do that and even teach him to beat and take down multiple people in a fight. They even made sure that Ayanokouji had enough knowledge of usage of weapons before the fight even started. White room might be an adaptability-centric facility, but it is surely not a facility which would give challenges before even telling the rules. Ayanokouji should have taken multiple instructors in a fight.
3. No, Beta Curriculum wouldn't include instructors ganging up on him. Or it might be, but the difficulty level would need to be higher. Like, if they were going to do it, they can even initiate a 1v20 fight in which Ayanokouji fights 20 instructors. But that's a mere assumption from sides of both of us, both are equally good and satisfying, and would result into an unproductive conclusion, so I would refrain from doing so further.

 

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[Doggo]

bunp

 

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[Memonto_Mori]

We talked about this in the private chat. Chess feats are not up to date and therefore it significantly reduces Ayano's intelligence and also reduces most of he indexes. Also, you need to prove that these feats are not off screen. If you prove it, it can be taken as narrative.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

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[Memonto_Mori]

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i agree senpai

 

[XxZetsuxX]

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