Ayanokoji (Classroom Of The Elite) Downgrade Part 2

[Zefra3011]

That doc isn't just about showing scans and explaining what they are? It has different interpretions about the feat that hasn't been accepted by the wiki when the wiki just says that Ayanokouji outplayed a chess engine.

Wait, so basically if something hasnt directly been accepted you can't use it as a proof? So like, if something isn't on the profiles automatically is not a proof? He just went deeper into the feat, what's wrong with that?

 

[Vzearr]

Wait, so basically if something hasnt directly been accepted you can't use it as a proof? So like, if something isn't on the profiles automatically is not a proof? He just went deeper into the feat, what's wrong with that?

the problem with it is we don't know if its correct information that is actually sourced correctly from correctly translated sources. For all we know it could be changed to the users personal beliefs.

 

[Zefra3011]

There are scans from the novel...

I bet of he didn't send the document but just wrote everything in a reply normally you would have discuss it normally as you were doing earlier

EDIT: if the explainations are wrong or innacurate you can see it given there are the scans from the novel

 

[RoggerReggor]

That doc isn't just about showing scans and explaining what they are? It has different interpretions about the feat that hasn't been accepted by the wiki when the wiki just says that Ayanokouji outplayed a chess engine.

The worst thing downplayers and downgraders will face in that doc is that it basically clears up all the interpretations which were bad and downplaying for the feat lol, so yeah, it basically sticks with 2 interpretations and both of them heavily favor his EG rating.

 

[RoggerReggor]

There are scans from the novel...

I bet of he didn't send the document but just errore everything in a reply normally you would have discuss it normally as you were doing earlier

EDIT: if the explainations are wrong or innacurate you can see it given there are the scans from the novel

Ye lol, I believe I will just copy-paste a lot of stuff from the doc so they wouldn't be "unverified" anymore and they would just be "my arguments". Thanks fr.

 

[wwereymy235]

the problem with it is we don't know if its correct information that is actually sourced correctly from correctly translated sources. For all we know it could be changed to the users personal beliefs.

The only thing that would need to be verified is the calculations. That’s it.

 

[blatgotyahat]

I seriously am not even keeping this to Taylor series, do you have stuff for people learning stuff so much that they learn it before they are in junior high, and the knowledge expands over several fields, so much that the knowledge has times said to be immeasurable and can never be replicated by a normal human.

Hyperthymesia does not help one in academics, researches with a hyperthymesiac named J Price have proved that Hyperthymesia is not helpful in rote memorization. It is a selective ability and cannot be used to justify everything. Secondly, White Room itself was never able to find the cause for him having a perfect memory, so we nobles have no right to try to determine the cause of him.

What do I need to prove exactly? The chess feat takes place in Y1V11, when Ayanokouji's a first year at ANHS.

It is 3000 ELO but Stockfish on level 8 (probably a version which is close to what Mittens uses, but still having a better pattern algorithm). Again, this is basically being taken out of context. You find a source online which doesn't even come close to what Ayanokouji does and then begin debating how that source mentions the things which Ayanokouji did.

Listen, I am not making things up, I have read the entire Analytical Prediction page, just like I used to do my university textbooks (because I am hella paranoid), and then you tell me it isn't how it works. Are you still saying Analytical Prediction is only for those who have Precognition?

Again, you are framing this as "everyone can do it", but everyone cannot, leaving your arm down is a better option by instincts, especially when you have been attacked there twice. Most of the people in these situations (if they are going serious and not like Ayanokouji who basically intends on losing somehow) will leave defense and try for offensive approach just so they can turn tides, so again, I am not really going to object what I am going to do.

He doesn't. This is the clip, I am sure we aren't seeing different ones.

Tbh I only asked you to because you were heavily misinformed and misjudging the feat, for a feat in the novel which you don't even know when happened so I assume you haven't read the novel. Reading the novel will probably be more than 28 pages and that, the feat itself shows some important things:

1. Ayanokouji can certainly outspeed the capacity of a chess engine heavily.
2. He can not only predict that, but also can see that he is going to win in 68 moves (in the first part) and then 90 moves to 120 moves (in the second part), depending on the moves Arisu made. He also literally predicted the amount of moves Arisu had herself to answer his moves, which means that he was certainly doing calculations on the same level as a chess engine does.

All of this is explained with calculations and a lot of stuff in the doc itself, if you mind reading that, that is.

I am sorry, I really didn't have Here's the prologue which author releases with every volume (this if for V0):

I believe the feat takes place around 2015+Ayanokouji's age+4 = 2015+17+4 = 2036, so yeah, he wasn't wrong. wwereymy235 estimated correctly I guess.

y1v1:

Everyone is equal at birth, but then I asked, why are there differences in people’s jobs and statuses? That was written in the second half of the passage. Is it a difference because one struggled with academics or because one didn’t try hard enough? A difference is created there. That’s the famous “scholarship studies.” These teachings haven’t changed at all, even in modern day 2015.

 

[wwereymy235]

y1v1:

Everyone is equal at birth, but then I asked, why are there differences in people’s jobs and statuses? That was written in the second half of the passage. Is it a difference because one struggled with academics or because one didn’t try hard enough? A difference is created there. That’s the famous “scholarship studies.” These teachings haven’t changed at all, even in modern day 2015.

Retconned.

 

[wwereymy235]

Retconned.

If you would like proof, read the beginning Y2V1 chapter 2. It explains why ANHS was created already well into the 21st century. Not only that, in volume 0 ANHS was made well before the whiteroom was constructed. Even then, Ayanokoji wasn’t born till at least over 3 years after the first generation selection experiment.

 

[Dinozxd]

The worst thing downplayers and downgraders will face in that doc is that it basically clears up all the interpretations which were bad and downplaying for the feat lol, so yeah, it basically sticks with 2 interpretations and both of them heavily favor his EG rating.

Lol I was never debating about the intelligence stuff. The first time I saw the thread and commented my agreement on didn't have the Inteligence part so I only agreed on the Abilities part. I'm neutral about the Intelligence part as Idk anything about scaling Intelligence anyway. Stop with this "dowplayers" and "downgraders" stuff for something I don't even agree on.

 

[RoggerReggor]

y1v1:

Everyone is equal at birth, but then I asked, why are there differences in people’s jobs and statuses? That was written in the second half of the passage. Is it a difference because one struggled with academics or because one didn’t try hard enough? A difference is created there. That’s the famous “scholarship studies.” These teachings haven’t changed at all, even in modern day 2015.

I don't know if that's Ayanokouji's 4th wall awareness (because this specific monologue was when the character was having a 1 on 1 session with the reader). But I guess that might be true. Though I think that ANHS still has a ton of futuristic things so there's a possibility that the story takes place in the future.

 

[Vzearr]

I don't know if that's Ayanokouji's 4th wall awareness (because this specific monologue was when the character was having a 1 on 1 session with the reader). But I guess that might be true. Though I think that ANHS still has a ton of futuristic things so there's a possibility that the story takes place in the future.

What exactly does it have that's futuristic ?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Lol I was never debating about the intelligence stuff. The first time I saw the thread and commented my agreement on didn't have the Inteligence part so I only agreed on the Abilities part. I'm neutral about the Intelligence part as Idk anything about scaling Intelligence anyway. Stop with this "dowplayers" and "downgraders" stuff for something I don't even agree on.

It's just a general opinion, I am not imposing that on you. But that's fine I guess.

 

[RoggerReggor]

What exactly does it have that's futuristic ?

Basically, its entire concept. Secondly, we don't have anything like WR which reportedly can make a curriculum which increases children capabilities.

 

[Vzearr]

Basically, its entire concept. Secondly, we don't have anything like WR which reportedly can make a curriculum which increases children capabilities.

Good proof.

 

[blatgotyahat]

Retconned.

They mentioned the years once iirc and it was that kiyo monologue, inform me real quick. I believe cote is in the future 2020-2030 considering how the school is built and the phone/point system etc.

Did they mention years again after y1v1?

 

[blatgotyahat]

If you would like proof, read the beginning Y2V1 chapter 2. It explains why ANHS was created already well into the 21st century. Not only that, in volume 0 ANHS was made well before the whiteroom was constructed. Even then, Ayanokoji wasn’t born till at least over 3 years after the first generation selection experiment.

makes sense

 

[Vzearr]

They mentioned the years once iirc and it was that kiyo monologue, inform me real quick. I believe cote is in the future 2020-2030 considering how the school is built and the phone/point system etc.

Did they mention years again after y1v1?

Your assumption has no real backing. Its best to just assume its set when the story was made.

 

[blatgotyahat]

Your assumption has no real backing. Its best to just assume its set when the story was made.

Bro reread what I said lmao Im on ur side on this because Year 1 Volume 1 its mentioned the current year 2015 in the universe.
But my point is that its believable to be set in 2020s forward considering the advanced technology the school has.

The novel still states its 2015 but as @wwereymy235 said its most likely a retcon. If u read Y2V1 chapter 2,
it explains why/how ANHS was created well into the 21st century. In vol 0 they even mention that ANHS was established before the wr was made lmao. Kiyo wasn't born years after the first gen experiment.

Kinu retconning isnt even something new

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

I disagree with the revision. In his fight with Ryueen, Ayanokoji calculated each of Ryueen's moves and possibilities and fought according to the best possibility. The moment Nanase transitioned into her alter ego, he calculated her pre-fight stance, her fighting skills, and what level of strength and speed she would have before the fight began. I believe what you're confusing about Extraordinary Genius is this. Ayanokoji solved the Taylor Series equations when he was 4-5 years old. It should also be taken into account that there is a three-fold age difference between him and a normal high school student. He did his work on the Theory of Relativity when he was in middle school, which is still a point that many expert professors cannot reach today. As a friend said, WR is a futurist and attention should be paid to when Vol 0 is written as + and calculations should be made accordingly.

 

[Vzearr]

I disagree with the revision. In his fight with Ryueen, Ayanokoji calculated each of Ryueen's moves and possibilities and fought according to the best possibility. The moment Nanase transitioned into her alter ego, he calculated her pre-fight stance, her fighting skills, and what level of strength and speed she would have before the fight began. I believe what you're confusing about Extraordinary Genius is this. Ayanokoji solved the Taylor Series equations when he was 4-5 years old. It should also be taken into account that there is a three-fold age difference between him and a normal high school student. He did his work on the Theory of Relativity when he was in middle school, which is still a point that many expert professors cannot reach today. As a friend said, WR is a futurist and attention should be paid to when Vol 0 is written as + and calculations should be made accordingly.

This is your interpretation with no real evidence behind it, all of the evidence sent has either consisted of someone spouting nonsense or someone lying about what happened.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

I was planning to open this, but you opened it, so I will explain it in detail.

Ayanokoji I do not agree with the extraordinary genius, the reason is clearly obvious. The chess engine that can make 20 million moves per second is not a current chess engine and nowadays people like Magnus Carlsen can beat these chess engines. Being called a genius among the geniuses is not an extraordinary genius achievement. The earlier a character's brain develops, the more intelligent he is. Ayanokoji also has this situation, but just solving the theory of relativity is not enough for an extraordinary genius. Many of Ayanokoji's feats are explained without going into detail. In this intelligence scaling, it is called off screen and taking the narrative scale is equivalent to taking the hyperbole scale, so I definitely agree with this downgrade.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

I disagree with the revision. In his fight with Ryueen, Ayanokoji calculated each of Ryueen's moves and possibilities and fought according to the best possibility. The moment Nanase transitioned into her alter ego, he calculated her pre-fight stance, her fighting skills, and what level of strength and speed she would have before the fight began. I believe what you're confusing about Extraordinary Genius is this. Ayanokoji solved the Taylor Series equations when he was 4-5 years old. It should also be taken into account that there is a three-fold age difference between him and a normal high school student. He did his work on the Theory of Relativity when he was in middle school, which is still a point that many expert professors cannot reach today. As a friend said, WR is a futurist and attention should be paid to when Vol 0 is written as + and calculations should be made accordingly.

Since there is no evidence behind it, it is taken as narrative. If you know intelligence scaling, you should know why narrative scales are not used.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

There are scans from the novel...

I bet of he didn't send the document but just wrote everything in a reply normally you would have discuss it normally as you were doing earlier

EDIT: if the explainations are wrong or innacurate you can see it given there are the scans from the novel

Having scans does not change anything, each feat must be explained in depth

 

[AloseVQ]

Looks good, I agree.

 

[Zefra3011]

Having scans does not change anything, each feat must be explained in depth

It's the exact purpose of the doc

 

[Memonto_Mori]

It's the exact purpose of the doc

No? It needs to be explained in the series. If you use conjecture to deepen the arguments explained in the series, it would be wank.

 

[wwereymy235]

No? It needs to be explained in the series. If you use conjecture to deepen the arguments explained in the series, it would be wank.

Not all series are made for what you qualify as in depth. COTE isn't focused on outsmarting like Liar Game is. We breakdown the narrative and back it up with proof to get the feats. You want Ayanokoji to blatantly say he calculated 3 trillion moves per second?

 

[Memonto_Mori]

Not all series are made for what you qualify as in depth. COTE isn't focused on outsmarting like Liar Game is. We breakdown the narrative and back it up with proof to get the feats. You want Ayanokoji to blatantly say he calculated 3 trillion moves per second?

Since Liar game is a manga, only visuals will be enough, but what we are discussing here is the COTE novel. The feats that are not explained in detail in the novel will be taken as narrative or offscreen, which is unacceptable. If you knew how to do intelligence scaling, you would understand what I mean.

 

[wwereymy235]

Since Liar game is a manga, only visuals will be enough, but what we are discussing here is the COTE novel. The feats that are not explained in detail in the novel will be taken as narrative or offscreen, which is unacceptable. If you knew how to do intelligence scaling, you would understand what I mean.

I obviously know how to do intellect scaling. One of the firs things the doc explains is how the narrative can be taken as actual feats for proven ability scaling. I'm assuming you use stop scaling which is why you're being so stubborn. Stop scaling isn't the best scaling as it's unreliable and favors animanga who's main purpose is to be scaled intellectually.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

I obviously know how to do intellect scaling. One of the firs things the doc explains is how the narrative can be taken as actual feats for proven ability scaling. I'm assuming you use stop scaling which is why you're being so stubborn. Stop scaling isn't the best scaling as it's unreliable and favors animanga who's main purpose is to be scaled intellectually.

What you are talking about is only valid for the liar game. Why do you think COTE white room feats are valid? Because they are explained in depth with examples, but all the other feats are almost off screen and narrative. I can discuss this issue for days, it is not a problem for me.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I heavily disagree with the idea of chess feat not being explaining enough. VSBW doesn't use STOP's scaling, the system which requires heavy explanation to prove reality of feats, and till now, the only fictional works which do it and are fairly intelligent would be Usogui, Reverend Insanity, Liar Game, One Outs, Mahjong Legend Akagi, etc (though I would say that COTE also can come to this list in some perspective). Magnus Carlsen doesn't beat chess engines on a daily basis, I don't know where this came from. There's a heavy difference between confusing a chess engine and making a better move than the chess engine, and a ton of GMs might qualify for the first, but the latter is very hard to do, if there are no issues in the engine, then it's impossible. Also, the doc also explains how Ayanokouji should have predicted 60 to 120 moves in the match and even made knowledge of patterns through which Arisu could escape his traps as well. And another thing is that Ayanokouji will still have the same intelligence rating (Extraordinary Genius) even if someone is able to correctly explain how chess feats aren't reliable.

• He already has a ton of successive prediction feats.
• He already meets the criteria of having knowledge over various sectors of science and technology.
• He already has hax which are extremely good for his own Information Analysis and has shown some insane intuition feats as well.
• He is quantitative and qualitative better than each person who is classified as a Genius in the verse. Rejoice, we have accepted that characters like Arisu, Takuya, Ichika, Shiro and Yuki should have an "At least Genius" rating. These characters, in Y1V11 were able to perform an insanely good FMA feat (which I soon will be proving how is unrealistic in CPI), in which, they took 15 rows of 3-digit numbers in literally 1.6 seconds and performed mathematical operations with them. People like Chiaki Matsushita, who are like low-mid tiers of the verse in intelligence, can perform a degree of FMA as well, making themselves decently into a good range of intelligence. FMA stands for Flash Mental Arithmetic btw. And also, all the characters I listed before, all of them don't comes close to what Ayanokouji does, his narrative superiority is being heavily underrated as well.

Correct explanation of feats is heavily unnecessary. It's the same as saying that if you get a result in a calculation which proves that the character is Mach 6.82, then the source material (which can be an animanga or a light novel) needs to make it clear that the character is Mach 6.82. That doesn't even make sense. At this point, you are just avoiding debating how the points in the doc are invalid or valid. Avoiding debates is fine, but still shifting topics while doing that isn't.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'm assuming you use stop scaling which is why you're being so stubborn. Stop scaling isn't the best scaling as it's unreliable and favors animanga who's main purpose is to be scaled intellectually.

STOP's scaling also uses only realistic feats which can be explained using IRL logics, the chess feat is already said to be inapplicable for people who use that lol.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree with the topic

Lelouch negs COTE

 

[wwereymy235]

What you are talking about is only valid for the liar game. Why do you think COTE white room feats are valid? Because they are explained in depth with examples, but all the other feats are almost off screen and narrative. I can discuss this issue for days, it is not a problem for me.

"The primary criticism most people have with scaling is not knowing the exact moves Ayanokouji and Sakayanagi made during the match. However, knowing that is NOT necessary for analyzing this portion of the feat. Since first off it’s likely nobody reading this doc or analyzing this feat is advanced enough in the game of chess for that information to mean anything in how this is scaled. What I mean by this is it doesn’t matter if Ayanokouji’s best move was Nf3, Bc6, or Qd2. That information wouldn’t change anything about the feat itself. Also since the COTE author isn’t a chess Master, creating a board position worthy of that isn’t his specialty but that doesn’t detract from the feat itself. Knowing the exact moves Ayanokouji and Sakayanagi made would only matter if you analyzed their chess match, not Ayanokouji’s feat within it. Therefore, based on proven-ability scaling, everything contained in the chess feat is valid."

 

[Memonto_Mori]

"The primary criticism most people have with scaling is not knowing the exact moves Ayanokouji and Sakayanagi made during the match. However, knowing that is NOT necessary for analyzing this portion of the feat. Since first off it’s likely nobody reading this doc or analyzing this feat is advanced enough in the game of chess for that information to mean anything in how this is scaled. What I mean by this is it doesn’t matter if Ayanokouji’s best move was Nf3, Bc6, or Qd2. That information wouldn’t change anything about the feat itself. Also since the COTE author isn’t a chess Master, creating a board position worthy of that isn’t his specialty but that doesn’t detract from the feat itself. Knowing the exact moves Ayanokouji and Sakayanagi made would only matter if you analyzed their chess match, not Ayanokouji’s feat within it. Therefore, based on proven-ability scaling, everything contained in the chess feat is valid."

I said that the chess feats are not just up to date, I wasn't wrong, I told you that almost all the feats other than the white room and chess are off screen and narrative. None of what you told me is an extraordinary genius scale. Characters like Magnus Carlsen can beat the chess engine, the fight of Ayanokoji.

 

[wwereymy235]

I said that the chess feats are not just up to date, I wasn't wrong, I told you that almost all the feats other than the white room and chess are off screen and narrative. None of what you told me is an extraordinary genius scale. Characters like Magnus Carlsen can beat the chess engine, the fight of Ayanokoji.

Magnus Carlsen can NOT beat a futuristic chess engine. Even chess engines today SLAM Magnus with no difficulty. Being able to outperform a futuristic chess computer is something no one can do today therefore validating Extraordinary Genius for Ayanokoji.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Characters like Magnus Carlsen can beat the chess engine, the fight of Ayanokoji.

We are either overrating Magnus Carlsen with a fake fact or downplaying a chess engine with this one. A chess engine would be insanely better than Magnus. Computers like AlphaZero can play roughly 20 million matches with itself in one second. A person averagely lives for 70 years and can have 2207520000 seconds for their entire lives, dividing that by 20 million gives 110.376 seconds, meaning that a person literally has to make a chess move every 1.8396 minutes for their entire lives, just so they can match what the AlphaZero computer can do in a second. Not to mention that AlphaZero is a literal AI which gets better with each game it plays. It's like in the first 20 seconds, it will play around 400 million stupid 100 ELO games, but in the next 20 seconds, it will play new 400 million stupid games, but it would be around 200 ELO now. It gets better with each passing second.

Also, the Ayanokouji outsmarted a dedicated machine, which in the most parts would be better than a chess engine if it has an AI program like DeepMind or AlphaZero.

Edit: I just read this again, and it sounds stupid due to one reason. In every 1.8396 minutes, a human has to play an entire game, not just make a move, I downplayed AlphaZero.

 

[Zeinx1]

I disagree

 

[Vzearr]

I disagree

Reasoning ?