At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Deagon's position is not coherent.

Is BB's 'nothingness' the Swirl of the Root? Yes or No?

• If Yes: Address how it is explicitly stated that BB's 'nothingness' in her Cursed Cutting Crater Noble Phantasm is Imaginary Number Space.
• If No: Why bring it up?

Since the Mooncell specifically records what is on Earth, how did BB record and digitilize the Swirl of the Root? Is the Swirl of the Root located on Earth?

• If Yes: Address the Swirl of the Root being outside the world.
• If No: Explain how the Mooncell, which specifically records what is on Earth, recorded the Swirl of the Root.

It didn't come into existence 8,000 years ago, that's just when Catalhoyuk disappeared.

You should read the text again. It says origination (not disappearance) occured 8000 years ago.

So this begs the question, the Swirl of the Root, according to your theory combined with facts, didn't have the authority to create things until 8000 years ago? What about more ancient things?

Regardless, I don't think citing Gaia, Demeter or Tiamat is useful for you here, because both of them derive their power from Catalhoyuk and the fact that they have conflicting stories is attributable to the fact that they may not know about Catalhoyuk, and conflicting religious beliefs are common in Type-Moon.

Gaia's statement is from a timeline where the Olympian gods ruled Earth, and the entirety of humanity, with an iron fist for over 12,000 years. There is simply no way for a civilization in Catalhoyuk to birth a goddess through their worship thousands of years later.
In that timeline, humanity on the surface Texture (i.e. outside Olympus) live on these islands:

What makes Gaia's authority less valid in that timeline?

---

Tiamat's true authority is the Sea of Life (a mud made from Imaginary Number Space incidently), which created all life on Earth (including much older life than 8000 years ago). She was later considered an earth mother goddess (instead of just a sea mother goddess), so gained Potnia Theron as an extra.

Spoiler: Origin of Tiamat

Choices Your Majesty, what's the Abyss? Is there something lower than the underworld? Gilgamesh Ah, the Abyss, yes. In Mesopotamia, there are the heavens and the earth, the underworld under the earth, and beneath that, the Abyss. The Abyss is a sea of nothingness. The gods Abzu and Tiamat came from that dark sea, and created Mesopotamia. You could call it the primordial sea that existed before life itself.

??? However... This is the oldest evil of them all. The Original Sin II... the sin of parting from ■, and leaving paradise. Choices Aah, but... ??? Life was born from the sea. The primeval sea, Nammu, the goddess of the beginning. To mankind, the goddess is the sea itself. The roaring of the waves became a voice to expose your sins.

Nammu is an other name for Tiamat, aka. Beast II.

---

Nasuverse Earth is a world of dimensions, and different Textures with separate cosmologies co-existed during the Age of the Gods.
For example, we do know for a fact that within Nasuverse's Proper Human History, Fafnir literally ate the sun during Ragnarök in the Scandanavian Texture creating a hole in reality, however the suns that existed in other Textures didn't get eaten. Multiple versions of the same celestial bodies exist:

While in the middle of her Noble Phantasm, Ishtar warps to Venus; however, this is not the Venus in the outer space of the modern era, but rather, the Venus in the outer space of the Age of Mythology. Afterwards, grabbing (the concept of) Venus and loading it onto her bow as a bullet, the Venus Blaster shoots this Venus that had been turned into a bullet towards the Earth (surface), and from another person’s perspective, it casually warps into the modern era’s airspace through the utilization of Displacement Magecraft. The targeted mountain range perishes due to the destruction caused by this Venus, the destruction being a nuisance to Venus as well as to the Earth.

So conflicting religious beliefs doesn't mean they are false in this context. Within the Mesopotamia Texture, the Underworld where the souls of the dead go literally existed, and the sea of nothingness called the Abyss literally existed under the Underworld.


You are claiming that the goddess of Çatalhöyük pre-existed the cosmos, however this is not consistent with the fact that goddesses being born require human worship and that her authority of creation just originated 8000 years ago.

You proposing a bizarre contradictory cosmology, and if it doesn't stand out to scrunity then it doesn't have credibility.

My response above covers this in more detail

Not really, you simply pivoted into creating a new argument instead of addressing my argument.
How does being the origin or mother of earth mother goddesses amount ("in other words", according to the scan) to creating the entirety of cosmos?

The fact that Paracelsus regards Manaka as "Potnia Theron" -- the Goddess of Catalhoyuk's authority (Potnia Theron itself as a real world concept being directly associated with Catalhoyuk) that passed down to the various Earth Goddesses (the Ten Crowns ability that comes from the primordial goddess is also called Potnia Theron), and that the subtext of that title is her being called "Queen of the Root" should eliminate any ambiguity that the two are closely related and that if Catalhoyuk is being referred to as "the root" then it's indeed the Root, not some generic origin or root.

Potnia Theron (aka. Mistress of Animals) is common authority among earth mother goddesses; Potnia Theron is the authority to give birth to Demonic Beasts, and in the story Manaka's goal is to give birth to Beast 666.

Dr. Roman A goddess creates life. But when she turns to chaos, she becomes the enemy of humanity, the mother of Demonic Beasts. It's an Authority called Potnia Theron, the “Womb of a Hundred Beasts.” Anyone with this Authority possesses the seed of life... They can make an infinite amount of monsters, provided they have the resources. Based on the number of Demonic Beasts, the goddess to the north likely has this Authority.

---

The reason Manaka is called Potnia Theron is specifically due to a prophecy of a goddess of destruction welcoming something coming from the abyss (in the context of the story, it is Beast 666 which Manaka was trying to summon). Earth mother goddesses seek destruction when they turn into chaos, such as Tiamat. Devouring the world and destroying the world are also common among villains in the franchise; Sodom's Beast was going to devour Proper Human History for example.

Manaka: “Your friend. Caster. Although he is helping me out tonight, he’s not that bad. Thanks to him, my precious Saber can wield his sword, even within the Ramesseum Tentyris[The Shining Great Temple Complex] that Rider has dispatched. Is he really that precious? After all, that sword is an honour and it can even transcend time.” Yes, the girl said―――― She hums a song. Is it the song of a fairy dancing in the garden with moonlight pouring down on her? Is it the song of the holy one who blesses the Holy Grail War? Or. Is it a prophecy of Potnia Theron[Princess of Beasts] of the end who welcomes something which comes from the abyss? Manaka: “Past. Present. And, future.”

This girl. This menace was trying to bring destruction to the world. She didn’t bat an eye on reaching the Root, and she was going to achieve her goal even if she had to offer all of creation as a sacrifice to it―――― She was the one who surpassed even Fafnir’s greed, Potnia Theron! Lancer was surely executing her rampage for this.

Rider: “O’ Potnia Theron the goddess who will devour the world, and the knight who protects it. Tonight, we, know now what we are here to do for this present world. We are here, in order to slaughter you all.”

Spoiler: Heck, in the final part of the story, the incomplete Beast 666 keeps calling Manaka "Mother"

It had just taken in 2 out of the 3 remaining crowns, having obtained up to 4 of them a long time ago. It had no choice but to wait now, to seemingly sprout up as much it likes for there were 7 Heroic Spirits’ souls, 7 messengers who were in charge of 7 crowns. If it was allowed to devour, crunch, and eat a bit more of the innumerable sacrifices which had been handed to it in place of the 7th Servant, 7 heads having 10 large horns would probably take form. Thus, now. As it had neither a head nor eyeballs, it had no choice but to look up as a faceless fleshy sea. At its kind mother’s return. Yes, that’s right. It’s mother. It had a mother. It which was crawling around underground wasn’t aware that his creator was an almighty father. The one who turned their gaze kindly, with their same as ever smile, whoever it was, was its mother. Their appearance seemed to be of a young girl. When she came back down to underground, its mother, this omnipotent girl who was beautiful and even gorgeous, would always, carry in a new sacrifice. Without a brain in its body, its fleshy sea of squirming darkness, without having a substitute organ prepared to govern its thoughts, regardless of whether it shouldn’t have existed, it shivered in delight. It was impossible to rearrange it as a language, but if he had to express it would it be like this? ――――Welcome back, Mama. I’ve been a good child. When you weren’t here, I drew in lots of the sacrifices, and devoured their souls. I ate, a lot, a lot, a whole lot. So praise me, Mama―――― Mother: “Good child.” The girl who was its mother said, while showing her form on the cliffs of despair. On the far off upper regions. Judging from the squirming flesh to the deep depths there was a considerable distance, however, the girls’ voice which was like a whisper could accurately reach it.

---

You are making massive stretches. The ruby text of Potnia Theron for Manaka also calls her the "Princess of Beasts" and "The World’s Princess". Do princesses wear crowns too, since earth mother goddesses are associated with crowns?
The ruby texts refers to the fancy titles of Manaka.

The Ten Crowns belongs to Beast 666.

03 - Khakkhara of Domination The teacher's pointer that BB carries. A device that lets her make full use of her authority as an advanced level AI. Although limited to the Far Side of the Moon, this allows BB to modify the spiritron lawsgame rules within the SE.RA.PH. ◆ "Ten Crowns of Domination" worn by the Beast of Babylon converted into a teacher's pointer. This is the male principle corresponding to the female principle of the seven-headed beast, and its true nature is a phallus (erect rod). The symbol of the king of the world who was granted throne and authority by a great dragon and received the right to, for 42 months, spit out as many insolent words as desired and desecrate all things. The beast's heads were the seven hills of the Roman Empire... Capitolium, Palatium, Aventinus, Esquilinus, Caelius, Quirinalis, Viminalis. In other words, they meant the Roman Empire itself, and the ten horns symbolized the emperors... Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasianus, Titus, Galba, Otho, Vitellius.

Beast 666 (aka. Beast VI/G) is bound by duality and exists as a counterpart to Sodom's Beast/Draco (aka. Beast VI/S). They are not two halves to be joined, but forces representing opposing concepts like Yin and Yang.
Just like Beast III is split into L and R (Lapse and Rapture), Beast VI is split into S and G (Sodom and Gomorrah).

Spoiler: Beast VI being split into two parts

Knight I thought there was something sinister this time around...but I don't sense the noxious gas of L or the lingering scent of R. Things aren't going as planned. I guess I have no choice but to search more thoroughly. ... Yeah. It'll be all right, Merlin. I will accomplish my goal, and then return to where I belong. Soon. One of these days.

Arthur My True Name is Arthur Pendragon! When L and R are both present, so too will S and G manifest under either sky...

One of the two horns of the Sixth Beast, defeated by the Chaldea of the parallel world in which it resided. The one born from the Logos of Depravity. It is said to manifest when the degeneration of the most prosperous city of the era reaches its zenith, just so it may savor its malignancy. The Beast of Sodom is its name. It is the beast that in the New Testament was said to have destroyed Babylon.

Arthur Ok...listen up Merlin. You know, I've been travelling the worlds in accordance with your prophecy, searching for L and R at that Chaldea from far away─── There I kept awaiting the continuation of the prophecy, for portents of S and G. And yet... You intervened, an intervention unprophesied and unplanned. Just because it seemed fun!?

Kama So what do you want? Are you here to laugh at me? Fine, go ahead. You can see for yourself how much of a loser I am. I'm not good for anything anymore. I'm sure you've already got a seat saved for you in the real world, since you're on the winning team and all. You gain nothing by messing with me now. Unless...you're here to absorb me as the yin to your yang, and become a more fully realized Beast III or something? ??? Don't be silly. You and I could never merge into a single being. Your existence is one of giving, mine is one of taking. You are a hell of infinite women, and I am a hell of a single, boundless woman. We may both be Beasts born of pleasure, but in all other respects, we could not be more different. You and I are not right and left halves of the same whole, taking up hands in service of a common goal. We're diametrically opposed enemies who can scarcely stand to look at one another. I could never eat such a being. You would taste awful, and no doubt give me a terrible stomachache.

Everything was according to the plans of Kama, the immature form of a Beast. Kama formulated a plan to annihilate Chaldea so she could fully emerge as Beast III/L and to assert her dominance over the existence that formed a pair with her, Beast III/R, by defeating those that defeated her. Originally, her plan should have been perfect, but Kama's policy of "corrupting the Master of their own volution" created a chance for a counterattack and eventually, the incident came to an end with Beast III/L's defeat. Even though she thinks Chaldea an eyesore, she also finds Beast III/R (Kiara) odious; that human-like nature could be said to be Beast III/L's weak-point. As a pair, R and L make up Beast III, but its visual concept is "the hell of women".

Does this mean that, according to your theory, the power of the Swirl of the Root, which you believe is Ten Crowns, is bound by duality and binary opposition?

 

[Deagonx]

Is BB's 'nothingness' the Swirl of the Root? Yes or No?

• If Yes: Address how it is explicitly stated that BB's 'nothingness' in her Cursed Cutting Crater Noble Phantasm is Imaginary Number Space.
• If No: Why bring it up?

This is the third time I have been asked this question, and I already responded "No" to the previous two times. This thread has already become far longer than necessary, only more so by asking me questions that I answered even in my most recent post. Further, it is not stated that the "nothingness" is INS. Those are two separate sentences and nothing connects the two.

So this begs the question, the Swirl of the Root, according to your theory combined with facts, didn't have the authority to create things until 8000 years ago? What about more ancient things?

If the power originated from that goddess 8000 years ago, that doesn't mean the goddess herself came into existence 8000 years ago nor her power. Just the ability that was passed onto the mother goddesses she gave birth to, like Tiamat, Ishtar, Gaia, etc. This needn't be identical to the primordial goddess' power as she is clearly a different kind of being entirely from them.

You are claiming that the goddess of Çatalhöyük pre-existed the cosmos, however this is not consistent with the fact that goddesses being born require human worship and that her authority of creation just originated 8000 years ago.

You proposing a bizarre contradictory cosmology, and if it doesn't stand out to scrunity then it doesn't have credibility.

First, it was outright stated that the primordial goddess predates the cosmos. Moreover, this isn't a proposal, it is just what the scans actually say. Your argument that it allegedly creates a contradiction means very little, because there are many contradictions in Nasuverse. We do not get to rewrite the source material over it. As such, the scans very clearly say that Catalhoyuk is the "Root" from which all things came into being. Any ambiguity that could be argued for there is eliminated by the other evidence mentioned about it. (Shiki's ability, Potnia Theron).

You are making massive stretches. The ruby text of Potnia Theron for Manaka also calls her the "Princess of Beasts" and "The World’s Princess". Do princesses wear crowns too, since earth mother goddesses are associated with crowns?

Yes, princesses wear crowns. In any case, those other titles don't hurt the case for this at all. The fact that Caster calls her this as a result of identifying her as the Queen of the Root/Princess of the Root is definitive. Your claim that it was as a result of this prophecy is a misinterpretation. The scan that mentions the prophecy isn't identifying the prophecy as Potnia Theron (or the prophecy of Potnia Theron), it's questioning whether this is a prophecy from her (instead of, say, a song from a fairy, or a song from a holy one).

Does this mean that, according to your theory, the power of the Swirl of the Root, which you believe is Ten Crowns, is bound by duality and binary opposition?

This is a strawman.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The first case you proposed against the Swirl of the root being Tier 0, was the belief that it's given "being" by the consensus of humanity, do you still hold that to be the case? Or did they change again mid-way through the thread?

It's difficult to tell, because you haven't stuck to exactly one justification and another in an incohesive manner, leaving another aside to establish a new one regardless of it conflicting with another justification to gave prior to that.

You held that the Swirl of the root exists outside of the world, but not as a monad, just as a place where one becomes a god when they touch it, this however conflicts with what you're saying now, seeing as you acknowledge that the Mooncell records the "mother goddess" of which you liken the goddess in question to be the Swirl of the root, the Mooncell records phenomena of the planet, it observes and records, do you hold that the Swirl of the root is both within space-time in a specific location where it can be recorded and simultaneously outside of the world where it can't be recorded?

Why is it that the Mooncell can record the Swirl of the root and not Sefar? Do you take it to be inferior to Sefar? But beyond Arcueid who is beyond Zeus who defeated Sefar?

You referred to the Swirl of the root as nothing but an unused mana piñata, then you proceeded to acknowledge that Ryougi Shiki was in it and she described her experience, you held the description of the experience to be true to derive a contradiction by supposing a monad can't have something inside of it, do you still hold that the description of Ryougi's experience holds truth value?

Well this also gives a new distinct fourth translation. It says "there is a cause, an absolute one, that is the basis for all events." That would mean it's just being called an absolute cause, not "absolute oneness"

To quote you

Since you're interested in a Tier 0 thread, I suppose we both understand the implication of the word "absolute" in philosophy and theosophy, right? You did acknowledge that it's an absolute first as an interpretation to derive a contradiction with it being "absolute oneness" or absolute unity, do you still hold that belief or did that change? Seeing as you're saying it's possible for the Swirl of the root to be divine spirit level and be contingent on belief, but this conflicts with what you said beforehand and causes contradictions, you can't affirm a possibility from a contradiction, unless you think it's both an absolute first cause and simultaneously a contingent existence, which is it?

The explanation you're demanding is within the quoted section. Even Theoretical said: "everything flows from the Root." There is a scan that says "we are all just atoms that originated from this common source.

To quote you

You acknowledged it as the source of all, unless of course you don't hold that belief and it changed as well mid-way through the thread, if it didn't, then the Swirl of the root would be an emanator that gets influenced by its emanations? The idea of emanationism implies the Swirl of the root to be a necessary existence for all contingent things to come into existence, is it both that and a contingent existence? Is it contingently necessary? If that's even a term that is

You actually acknowledge the descriptions of Ryougi Shiki's experience to be true several times, this is going to be very relevant because I need to pinpoint what you're trying to say.

The wish of Çatalhöyük is the coming of that day.

Furthermore, you liken the Swirl of the root to not a directive will and a will of its own and you acknowledge that, yet you simultaneously liken it to a mother goddess who had a wish for humanity to escape the planet and reach the age of will? Does it not have a will and a will simultaneously?

Presumably the "gods sustained by belief" thing does not hold true for the Root itself. Or perhaps it does, I can't really say, as the source material doesn't specify.

The responses you've provided so far as mostly consisting of you just saying "the source material doesn't specify", it's just a case of "well the source material says that not me", seems to me that you're just not willing to engage anymore, because the source material does provide extensive information about the Swirl of the root itself. I can't say the same about this goddess who's apparently the Swirl of the root, by any attempt to further extrapolate on her existence derived from preexisting information in the "source material" itself only derives contradiction from extensive information about the Swirl of the root, how odd isn't it?

Don't understand if you hold the position that every piece of evidence sent, to make a case for the Swirl of the root being Tier 0 is false and for what reason to be precise.

Now let's look at the statements in question:

it is said to record all things, happenings and records all of knowledge. These records are the source of extensions of the material, as a result of the world being fashioned using the information in akasha.

Do you disagree with the statement that suggests the Swirl of the root records all happenings?

When it is said that the akashic records are the source of all things, it is meant to signify the information within it being used as blueprint to create the material world. The material world is said to not guarantee permanence and that the only eternal thing is something formless, the only notion said to be worthy of being called eternal is the only true record, which never changes even to the perspective of the observer who can assign different meanings to objects of reality.

The origin is implied to be the core of your soul, as its stated that the origin is the true essence of the ultimate reality deep within the souls of all things. It is also called a record, the records are then stated to be not affected by anything even your own thoughts, they're said to easy eternally even if the world one day disappears, they will remain and forever remain to be unchangeable as seen again here.

Do you reject the statement suggesting the Akasha is eternal and the records of it are unchangeable, unlike the dynamic and ever-changing and transient material world? Do you reckon the character lies? Or the character is just lying?

Everything flowed from it from simplicity to multiplicity but to its absolutely simple nature, the created or contingent beings are far too hopelessly complex to return to the simple absolute first, as they're mediate emanations rather than immediate emanations

Do you reject with a statement from a True Ancestor Royalty, saying things are too complex to return back to the source and disagree with the analogy of things flowing from it which implies emanationism? You did use this statement beforehand and accept it, do you reject it now and do you reckon she was lying, or she didn't know about that which what she spoke of?

She continues with an unsteady voice, staring at him.As if she is pouring out a lonely feeling that no one can understand."...the vortex of origin. A place where all causes are swirling, where everything is prepared, and therefore there is nothing. That is my true identity. I am only connected to it, but I am a part of it.

Do you reject with Miss Omniscient, saying the Swirl of the root is where everything is predetermined and where there's nothing? Do you reckon she just wasn't omniscient enough or was just lying?

Shiki was actually in the process of disappearing or rather fading into nothingness but instead of her, SHIKI gets separated from Shiki, then Shiki gets sent somewhere else whilst SHIKI in spirit stays in the Swirl of the root and after being seperated from Shiki, SHIKI seemingly fades into nothingness, in this same scene, Shiki says this is "death", she continues on to talk about the Swirl of the root is a world that can only be reached by the dead, it is fundamentally impossible for the living to behold the Swirl of the root, she begins to wonder why is she the only one alive, but after this, is where she begins to be separated from SHIKI

This is relevant to what's above when I say nothing, do you reject the description of Ryougi's experience of it now? I do recall you accepting it, you used the entire passage to derive a contradiction from it, did you change your mind? This is very important because Ryougi says Kara is a world only the dead can reject, reaching it means disappearing and returning to nothing, seeing as SHIKI returned to nothing and permanently died, I ask do you reject this experience now? Where she says there is neither darkness, light, sound, it's nothing and not even nothingness exists there? If you still accept it, then did this non-being evolve into something that can be digitized? Do you reckon it's even metaphysically possible to add information to a rejection of information itself?

This one is an actually interesting question, you said Illya is a reliable person when it comes to the understanding of Swirl of the root, this was used to derive a contradiction with the Swirl of the root being Tier 0 by saying it's just a mana piñata.

Rooted in the Nous of hermeticism, akasha is a metaphysical plane of existence

Do you reject the statement of her saying, the Swirl of the root records anything and is capable of creating anything? If not then we're left with a dilemma whereby the Swirl of the root is recorded by the Mooncell and records itself being recorded by the Mooncell, which is metaphysically impossible, you have to provide a satisfactory response to this dilemma that is created by your interpretation.

As far as EXTRA and CCC go, she‘s about the only one who can bring Golden White Face [Konjiki Hakumen] down to a level where “it’s possible to defeat her no matter how slim the possibility.”

So far, the goddess is inferior to Amaterasu of which Arcueid is second to in Extra Verse, do you think the Mystic Eyes killing something more powerful than this goddess who's the Swirl of the root, imply the eyes are superior to the Swirl of the root? How odd, the eyes glimpse the Swirl of the root itself to derive the predetermined conceptual death of all things within the Swirl of the root, I suppose the Swirl of the root is beyond its own nature, beyond and below, what do you think?

Speaking of the Mystic Eyes, we went over how a character you used to derive a contradiction and says everything is already recorded in the Swirl of the root, this aligning with the power of the eyes of direct death themselves, which are described as glimpsing the Swirl of the root itself, in other words the conclusion of all things? Does it mean the root creates the conclusion of all things, including the conclusion of itself? How would that work, it gives the eyes the conclusion but how can it give the conclusion of its conclusion if the conclusion will already derive from it? Thoughts?

This is a world purge by rewriting events, making the most of the EX skill "Pothonia Terrone," which BB has acquired.

The goddess who is the mother of the earth mother gods who created the earth is, in other words, the "root" that gave birth to all things.
０１ - C. C. C.カースド・カッティング・クレーター
ムーンセルを掌握したＢＢによる、世界を犯す攻撃。
霊子虚構陥穽とも。

ＢＢが獲得したＥＸスキル『百獣受胎ポトニア・テローン』を最大限に活用した、事象書き換えによるワールド・パージ。

大地を創造した地母神たちの母にあたる女神とは、即ち、万物を生み出した「根源」である。
It embodies the power of all creation possessed by the mother goddesses—originating from a forgotten goddess approximately 8000 years ago (the goddess of Çatalhöyük) and branching to Tiamat and Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, etc.

Many are depicted with mural crowns. This is because many of these goddesses were also guardian deities of cities.

The statement to be precise, reading slowly into it uses "mother gods" as a plural, "who creates the earth is, in other words, the 'root' that gave birth to all things", There's nothing that I see special about this goddess in question, because there are more than one mothers of earth, who was described in a similar vein, just as Gaia is.

To double down further into this, we know different mythological systems have events that happen only within their respective mythologies, Surtr is said to have destroyed everything in Ragnarök, humans, the gods and the world itself.

God arjuna assimilated various Indian gods into himself, he was said to be capable of destroying and remaking everything alike, but anytime he did, it was only performed in the Indian texture remade by the Foreign God, which has Yuga cycles, "everything" in this case is just an explanation of how it applies only to the extent of the mythological system in question.

Gaia predates this so-called authority which gives birth to all things? How do you distinguish between an authority's birth, a manifestation of a god's omnipotence with the birth of the God itself? Supposing it was, that means she didn't have that authority prior to 8,000 years ago, something gave birth to all things, then she got that authority 8,000 years ago and gave birth to all things too? Is that what I'm getting here? To power to give birth to all things is predated by another mother goddess who gives birth to all things?

The birth of "all things" and earth being attributed to mother gods in plural, how would she be the Swirl of the roof if they imply pantheistic notions to the creation of everything, some of the mother gods appearing before us in FGO (looking at Tiamat, who has no resemblance with how the Swirl of the root is shown and described).

Every pantheistic God is predated by the Swirl of the root itself, the Swirl of the root is the source of all pantheistic or celestial beings in Type Moon, the goddess in question is intrinsically mythological, she cannot be said to be the source of everything if she's part of the everything that which she is the source of, are you saying she's the source of all y? But is Y itself? This doesn't follow categorically, it's just another paradox derivable from your arguments.

In context they're just reflecting mythology. Gaia's powers come from Catalhoyuk.

Çatalhöyük is a mythological goddess as well, they give exactly two examples of mother goddesses.

Çatalhöyük a mother goddess who falls under the category of Earth mother Goddess she is:

• A mythological primordial, who created the earth, which signifies her creating "all things" because creating 'earth' is a subject used as a condition to derive the predicate of them creating 'all things' (totally doesn't relate to the earth mother goddess authority breaking when you leave earth IMO)

Gaia a mother goddess who falls under the category of Earth mother Goddess

• A mythological primordial who created who created 'earth', which signifies her "in other words" giving birth to all things from chaos, because of the subject and predicate relationship between earth and all things (totally not the reason why the authority breaks when a person leaves the planet)

◆

Those born on this earth cannot defy the authority of the mother goddess, as that would mean rebelling against the very system of life. However, when they leave this earth, head to space, and end the childhoood as intelligent lifeforms, they will have broken this authority.

The authority is said to embodiment of the power of all creation, but breaks when you leave earth, how odd, don't you think? Is there no connection between being the source of all things and being limited to earth? Do you happen to reject that too? Hmmmmmmm what a dilemma is it not? Weird how the authority doesn't work on being's alien to earth's laws, maybe just maybe everything about her is limited to earth, oops could be wrong though, what do you think?

Some of them predate Earth and the entire universe

Who predates the universe as a mother goddess? I mean the universe don't conflate it with the textures just to be clear.

Not sure the point of the Moon Cell question, I don't see the contradiction there.

So lemme get it straight, if Y records all x, the reason for Y recording all x, then there's a part of x (suppose it's an event) whereby part of x, takes a part of x (sefar consuming all possibilities of the Mooncell it had accumulated).

You're saying the Mooncell, records a possibility of something harming and taking information of itself as if that is a part it's a part of its system? If so, then why did it get sealed into a place where the Mooncell could neither observe nor touch? The Mooncell core otherwise known as the holy grail has administration over the records it has and the possibilities it stores, it can delete things that go against it, if it truly just recorded a part of it getting harmed it wouldn't designate Top Servants, Regalia users and so forth to defend itself, why would you designate something to kill something that you assimilated as a record itself?

The Moon Cell isn't part of Arcueid.

and is simultaneously recorded by the Mooncell, but the Mooncell which records something that records all things is a part of someone (Arcueid)

Oops I thought I sent the evidence for the Core of the Mooncell being an extension of Arcueids existence, guess I was wrong; I'll send it again, back to my question.

How is it that the Mooncell records something that records all things including the Mooncell, and is simultaneously recorded by the Mooncell, but the Mooncell which records something that records all things is a part of someone (Arcueid) who can apply necessary laws that it has to follow, the same person gets killed by something recorded by the Mooncell, which records all things including a force that records all things? Is the record that can kill the Mooncell a record of the Mooncell?

Not sure the point of the Velber/Sefar questions, the source material doesn't specify.

Fascinating.

As for Shiki, she isn't a Divine Spirit so she wouldn't have an "authority."

BB is not a divine spirit, she's an A.I, Manaka is not a Divine Spirit, she's a human, so I ask again; why is it that Ryougi is not associated with the authority of "The Root" as the "Root"?

Adding on to the confusion is the fact that the statements you used to derive a negation to it being Tier 0, in themselves imply the Swirl of the root being Tier 0 individually. Take the statement of Arcueid for example

An absolute first
https://gyazo.com/f6590daedd0b45935f14678dbb3c0ad7
The point where this universe began, yet also the point where it will end.
https://gyazo.com/f6590daedd0b45935f14678dbb3c0ad7
At this point, there is an 'archive of all things'. Though it is less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence'; not really information. It is 'existence' and nothing more. It has no will unto itself, and no possible directive either. It simply lets causes flow out of itself.

This is the best possible explanation of lack of distinctions for something, a lack of reducibility of something, absolute unity, since you're interested in a Tier 0 thread I'd already assume you're familiar with some of the views that center around Tier 0, from kabbalah to Neoplatonism.

In kabbalah G-D is said to exceed human comprehension so much that G-D appears to be nearly non-existent, the only thing you can know of God is that he exists, the fact that the Swirl of the root even by the statements you accept imply ineffability to this extent is damning.

The idea that one cannot apply dual distinctions to G-D relate to that as well, one cannot say A is a God and A is Not God, because God is existence, all existence exists in God, ʾēn sōf as a designation for G-D in itself is understood as being completely formless, eternal and absolute nothingness that is ʾên אֵין, because nothing-ness has no boundaries, it being nothing is associated with it being infinite/without end.

In that same description Ryougi gives for the 「　」, same description you used to derive a contradiction as well, stating that is is a place with no sound, no light, no darkness, a place where there's nothing, a place where not even "nothingness" exists, a place where a description serves no meaning, expanding anywhere and everywhere, I'm confused as to how your critiques hinged on Ryougi's experience of it, but at the same time you unconsciously deny the experience by saying a place of nothingness is an unused mana piñata.

You also said the cases made for it being Tier 0, only tried to resolve contradictions into harmony by adding additional terms like "mediate and immediate" emanation beforehand, but simultaneously agreed to "all things and causes flowing from the Swirl of the root" several times, if the process of emanation is accepted to be the way in which the Swirl of the root creates.

Then the distinction between immediate and mediate emanations is necessary, not all things are created at the same time or stage, that's a core point of emanation, emanation is an unfolding of existence itself, all existence fundamentally being God, this happens in hermeticism as God emanates the Nous the divine mind, which emanates all things, the stage from God emanating the nous is an immediate emanation and the rest is a mediate emanation.

Happens in Neoplatonism as well, The One Emanates the Nous, the material world is created in the likeness of the nous as well by the demiurge, the second principle the nous is the immediate emanation of the one and what comes after is a set of mediate emanations. Gnosticism doesn't have any significant difference from Neoplatonism, the only significant difference is that the demiurge is Yaldabaoth/Yahweh and is treated as an evil false god.

Happens in kabbalah, Atziluth is the highest world out of the four and one of the primary emanations or an immediate of ʾên or ʾēn sōf, an eternal unchanging world divine world, closest in proximity to the divine. Briah/creation happens to be a mediate, it's bizarre to even accept that all things flow from the root including Mana and go back to saying, "it has mana", if all things flow from the Swirl of the root, then the Swirl of the root cannot be reducible whatsoever to what it emanates.

At some point, emanation becomes integral to not only the understanding of how absolutely transcendent the emanator is, but how it cannot be comprehended in principle and in regard to human intellect, because in the stages of the process of emanation, intellect becomes emanated from the emanator itself. In kabbalah it's primarily through Daʿaṯ emanated from God, In Neoplatonism and hermeticism it's through the Nous.



All knowledge is within the Akasha, a part of the Swirl of the root, that's why those deeply connected to it such as Ryougi, grasp everything about reality, that isn't to say it is knowledge itself, because it's not knowledge itself, knowledge emanates from within it and is thus facilitated in the akashic records, which has records of all happenings in the material world and all unchanging senses of the "self" or the "I".

Because everything including intellect flows from within it, whatever is regarded as it, attributed to it by "wisdom" and "intellect", describes what it is not, because that implies reducing it to its emanations, the emanator cannot be the emanation, that causes metaphysical inconsistencies.

In reality, it is “ultimate knowledge” Intellectual wisdom has created a standard called the ultimate, and in the end it has become a finite thing, which is why it is called this way. It's not correct, but I'm doing it that way because it's the easiest to understand. Originally, all the magic systems that are widespread in the world are based on the thin river that flows from this vortex.

If I had to pronounce this term, it would be kara. Each person receives it differently. To put it simply and easily, it is the vortex of the origin. However, since the vortex of the origin is called the vortex of the origin, it is still different from 「　」The problem with the drama CD was how to translate this into dialogue.

Because it emanates intellect which facilitates the existence of names, naming it the "Swirl of the Root" is the simplest way to understand it, but it is still different from Kara, just as Ein Sof, is fundamentally nameless as well, the term 'The One' is understood to be the simplest way to understand how G-D is fundamentally Absolute One.

but you accepted that things do indeed flow from it and emanate from it, but simultaneously you say, "it can be recorded by the Mooncell" and it's reducible to multiplicity, hence it shouldn't be possible for you to say it not digitized by thee Mooncell as if it's composed of information to be digitized.
So, in summary from what I'm getting from your position is (Correct me if I'm wrong, btw this is update as well!)

• Something that records itself being recorded by something and recording itself being recorded by something recorded by it
• It creates everything, including laws that establish laws that break the laws that it created by creating the laws that break it
• It creates humans who believe it to establish its existence, so it's created by the humans who create it by believing in it and it creates humans after that
• Void Shiki is considered it, but has never been shown to have the primary authority of it
• It creates something that records something that records all things simultaneously
• It is beyond the reaches of someone (Arcueid) who can apply necessary conditions to something that records and is beyond it, so it is beyond something that is beyond it, thus it is beyond and below
• Everything is predetermined within it, including events of it being recorded by something that also records all things including the Swirl of the root itself
• It records people who are considered to encompass the Mooncell (Arcueid), but that which is encompassed by it, is killed by a record of a record of itself.
• It is both absolutely nothing, akin to Ayin in kabbalah and is simultaneously a mana piñata.
• It is potentially confined by belief as you say, but simultaneously is the source of belief itself and all things (still confused as to how from a logical standpoint can you derive a possibility from a contradictory argument).
• It is both fully inside space-time and both fully outside of space-time.
• It both has a will unto itself and doesn't have a will unto itself.
• It is both fully multiplicity and is both fully absolutely simple.
• Its essence has information and simultaneously has no information.
• It is fully describable in essence, yet fully ineffable in essence.
• It is determinate and simultaneously indeterminate.
• It is both finite and infinite and without end.
• Through a subject-predicate relationship, creating earth signifies (as a conditional statement) that you gave birth to all things, yet simultaneously this conditional statement doesn't imply that it's limited to earth, despite the power that embodies all of creation breaking once you leave earth.
• All mother gods (in plural) are responsible for the creation of Earth, yet simultaneously only this Swirl of the root goddess is.
• The authority of this Goddess who is the Swirl of the root, became a thing 8,000 years ago, as you say yourself, Gaia gave birth to all things as long as 12, 000 years ago, yet this is the Swirl of the root goddess using an authority that doesn't predate all of creation.
• And lastly and perhaps the most fascinating point about the position is, Manaka is not a Divine Spirit but has the authority associated with the creative powers of this Goddess that is the Swirl of the root, but Void Shiki doesn't have the authority as a part of the Swirl of the root itself because she's not a Divine Spirit.

it feels as if the thread is about to be concluded, some of my questions were left unanswered beforehand, it appears you don't seem to be willing to engage, seeing as you refuse to respond to some of the continuous inconsistencies of not only what you're arguing, but how you're interpreting of the source material.

 

[Deagonx]

The first case you proposed against the Swirl of the root being Tier 0, was the belief that it's given "being" by the consensus of humanity, do you still hold that to be the case? Or did they change again mid-way through the thread?

That changed very early on when it was determined the translation wasn't accurate. I don't know why this is being brought up now.

You held that the Swirl of the root exists outside of the world, but not as a monad, just as a place where one becomes a god when they touch it, this however conflicts with what you're saying now, seeing as you acknowledge that the Mooncell records the "mother goddess" of which you liken the goddess in question to be the Swirl of the root, the Mooncell records phenomena of the planet, it observes and records, do you hold that the Swirl of the root is both within space-time in a specific location where it can be recorded and simultaneously outside of the world where it can't be recorded?

First, I didn't liken the goddess to the Root. The source material called her that directly. Second, there's nothing that indicates that something must be somewhere within space-time to be recorded.

do you still hold that the description of Ryougi's experience holds truth value?

Considering it was stated no less than three times in KnK, yes. The only basis for doubting it appears to be the proposal of monism.

Seeing as you're saying it's possible for the Swirl of the root to be divine spirit level and be contingent on belief

I didn't take such a stance.

The responses you've provided so far as mostly consisting of you just saying "the source material doesn't specify", it's just a case of "well the source material says that not me", seems to me that you're just not willing to engage anymore,

Many of the responses, including the majority of this post, are primarily made up of strawman arguments or questions about things the source material never says, or claiming it is merely my own personal belief instead of the scans saying something. It's become somewhat pointless, so yes my engagement is going to trend downward. Arguing that the implication of a scan creates a contradiction somewhere doesn't mean much, but the insinuation is that this somehow literally invalidates the scan itself. Interestingly, the scan that needs to be invalidated is always the one that creates a problem for monism.

Do you reject with Miss Omniscient, saying the Swirl of the root is where everything is predetermined and where there's nothing? Do you reckon she just wasn't omniscient enough or was just lying?

In that same scene, she says: "Shiki was forever floating off in a sea called the Swirl of the Root. All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「 」."

Do you reckon Miss Omniscient was just confused? Or do you think Miss Omniscient was correct that Shiki was in the Swirl of the Root?

If you still accept it, then did this non-being evolve into something that can be digitized? Do you reckon it's even metaphysically possible to add information to a rejection of information itself?

You're presupposing that these things are impossible in a fictional world where impossible things happen regularly. We needn't imagine it "evolved" into something for this to occur.

If not then we're left with a dilemma whereby the Swirl of the root is recorded by the Mooncell and records itself being recorded by the Mooncell, which is metaphysically impossible

I don't see why that would be impossible at all.

The statement to be precise, reading slowly into it uses "mother gods" as a plural, "who creates the earth is, in other words, the 'root' that gave birth to all things", There's nothing that I see special about this goddess in question, because there are more than one mothers of earth, who was described in a similar vein, just as Gaia is.

Th primordial goddess is the creator of all of those mother goddesses, according to the information matrix.

Oops I thought I sent the evidence for the Core of the Mooncell being an extension of Arcueids existence, guess I was wrong; I'll send it again, back to my question.

You did send that scan, it just doesn't say that.

Çatalhöyük a mother goddess who falls under the category of Earth mother Goddess she is:

• A mythological primordial, who created the earth, which signifies her creating "all things" because creating 'earth' is a subject used as a condition to derive the predicate of them creating 'all things' (totally doesn't relate to the earth mother goddess authority breaking when you leave earth IMO)

"The mother of the earth goddesses who created the earth, is, in other words, the "Root" that gave rise to all things." It's not describing the primordial goddess herself as an earth goddess or that she created the earth. She's the mother of the beings categorized as earth goddesses who created the earth. She's also the Root, according to the scan.

BB is not a divine spirit, she's an A.I, Manaka is not a Divine Spirit, she's a human, so I ask again; why is it that Ryougi is not associated with the authority of "The Root" as the "Root"?

BB is emulating those powers using the Moon Cell. Manaka does not have an Authority, she just also is called Potnia Theron.

but at the same time you unconsciously deny the experience by saying a place of nothingness is an unused mana piñata.

Again, this falls into the familiar pattern of the source material saying something, me presenting it as evidence, and then you describing it as some sort of personal theory of mine.

but you accepted that things do indeed flow from it and emanate from it, but simultaneously you say, "it can be recorded by the Mooncell" and it's reducible to multiplicity, hence it shouldn't be possible for you to say it not digitized by thee Mooncell as if it's composed of information to be digitized.

There's no contradiction with something producing emanations and something being recordable.

So, in summary from what I'm getting from your position is (Correct me if I'm wrong, btw this is update as well!)

Most of these do not represent my stance, but that seems to be intentional.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

This is the third time I have been asked this question, and I already responded "No" to the previous two times. This thread has already become far longer than necessary, only more so by asking me questions that I answered even in my most recent post. Further, it is not stated that the "nothingness" is INS. Those are two separate sentences and nothing connects the two.

The previous questions, including the one in your previous post, were about whether your position is: Swirl of the Root = INS
You answered no for these. My previous post did not ask this question.

The question I most recently asked is on whether: Swirl of the Root = BB's nothingness

If your answer is no as well as you seem to imply, then we are in agreement, and can consider BB's nothingness, and the Mooncell recording it, unrelated to the topic and move on.
The same Noble Phantasm description mentioning 'nothingness' mentions BB's mastery of Imaginary Number Space as a result of the digitilization of that 'nothingness', and further descriptions of the Noble Phantasm defines it as control of Imaginary Number Space, but let's skip that for brevity.

If the power originated from that goddess 8000 years ago, that doesn't mean the goddess herself came into existence 8000 years ago nor her power. Just the ability that was passed onto the mother goddesses she gave birth to, like Tiamat, Ishtar, Gaia, etc. This needn't be identical to the primordial goddess' power as she is clearly a different kind of being entirely from them.

If the power of creation originated 8000 years ago, then the power started existing 8000 years ago and not prior. The power also branched in addition, but that is beside the point.
The fact she is a goddess means that she, by the Nasuverse definition of the term, came into existence after humans.
The creation power acquired 8000 years ago, and previously didn't exist, could be based on phenomena human started worshipping before her birth as a goddess though.

First, it was outright stated that the primordial goddess predates the cosmos. Moreover, this isn't a proposal, it is just what the scans actually say. Your argument that it allegedly creates a contradiction means very little, because there are many contradictions in Nasuverse. We do not get to rewrite the source material over it. As such, the scans very clearly say that Catalhoyuk is the "Root" from which all things came into being. Any ambiguity that could be argued for there is eliminated by the other evidence mentioned about it. (Shiki's ability, Potnia Theron).

There is no outright statement that literally says a goddess chronologically predates the cosmos in existence.
I belive what you are refeering to that being the origin/mother/archetype of earth mother goddesses that created the Earth amounts ("in other words") to being the 'root' that gave rise to all creation. A natural interpretation of this is that she is ultimately the source/root for all creation acts on Earth by spawning the earth mother goddesses who performed them.

If your position is contradictory, that makes it fundamentally inferior to a non-contradictory position, and therefore inferior to the OP's thesis.

---

Tiamat's authority makes her the mother and origin of all life; the very existence of other life forms proves her existence and thus makes it an impossible paradox for her to die as long as others live.
But as a goddess she is chronologically born after humans due to their worship, even if they happened to worship something older than humans, and a Mesopotamia Texture/cosmology was formed to best suit the dominant intelligent lifeforms and their mythology (ex. making the Abyss of nothingness Tiamat is believed to have come from literally exist).

A goddess, including the goddess of Çatalhöyük, having an authority based on creating the universe from primordial chaos or nothingness doesn't mean that she chronologically pre-exist humans, as her existence is actually contingent on their worship.
Some Japanese gods had authority based on creating heaven and earth, allowing them to churn space-time into existence from primordial chaos or do the reverse, and be unbound by the time axis like Amaterasu:

『Amenosakahoko』 The abominable ritual reenacting the nation-making rite of Izanagi and Izanami, but in reverse. It is a unique type of magecraft that Erice, who inherited the powers of the underworld, gained after becoming something like a Servant. Using the replicated Shinto shrine object called the "Amenonuboko," she churns space and time to calculate the target's structure, sending everything that encompasses the target—structure, mass, meaning, and even its fate—into primordial chaos. If the target is a Servant, their Spiritron structure is completely nullified. It is a conceptual reversed entropy that returns one to death.

My raft, borrowed from Sukunabikona, arrives on the watery swell. Join together the eternal and mortal lands to recreate the heavens and earth! Ame-no-Kagami-no-Fune! Woohoo!!!

---

Some Mesopotamia gods would have authority based on the creation of everything, including the universe, by splitting it from primordial chaos.

Enuma Elish (The Star of Creation That Split Heaven and Earth) Gilgamesh's final Noble Phantasm which reveals creation--the beginning of everything. The severing of space which comes from the Sword of Rupture, Ea, the sword crowned with the name of a god from Mesopotamian mythology.

While the Sword of Separation, Ea, is categorized as a sword, in itself it is close to that of a staff. Its three lithograph each represents heaven, earth, and underworld; They each rotate to a different direction, which represents how the world is. All three together represents the universe.

Ea! Sing praise as you like! I will tell you of the beginning. Heaven and Earth split. Nothingness congratulated Creation... and my sword cleaved the world. Mortar of the stars...heaven's hell is the eve of creation's celebration! Enuma Elish!

Dr. Roman Back when what was above was not called heaven and what was beneath was not called earth, the god Abzu mated with the goddess Tiamat, and gave birth to many children, the gods. But as the children grew, they desired power, and they rebelled against Tiamat to widen the world.

Yes, princesses wear crowns. In any case, those other titles don't hurt the case for this at all. The fact that Caster calls her this as a result of identifying her as the Queen of the Root/Princess of the Root is definitive. Your claim that it was as a result of this prophecy is a misinterpretation. The scan that mentions the prophecy isn't identifying the prophecy as Potnia Theron (or the prophecy of Potnia Theron), it's questioning whether this is a prophecy from her (instead of, say, a song from a fairy, or a song from a holy one).

Yes, Domina Cronum, the authority of princesses below actual monarchs.
I am not saying Manaka doesn't have impressive titles, but the ruby text is just referring to those fancy titles, and you are trying to force a convoluted connection about crowns.

The Mistress of Beasts title aligns with Manaka’s summoning of Beast 666, and the beast refers to Manaka as its mother. Potnia Theron is also referred to as the "goddess who will devour the world" by Rider and he recognizes Saber as , which ties into what Manaka is trying to do, and Sigurd uses Potnia Theron as a title for a person more greedy than evil dragons.

Misaya's father clearly recognizes Masaka as the personing humming the song; he manages to percieve her as a monster, and not just as outwardly cheerfully innocent or holy. And the prophecy he percieves her singing is all about her, and foreshadows the story. This prophecy is fulfilled when Manaka attempts to summon the end the world through welcoming the beast which comes from the abyss.

This is a strawman.

This is the logical implication for the Ten Crowns being the power of the Root, and some sort of subtext for it. If the implication is ridiculous, it should be dropped.

 

[Deagonx]

The question I most recently asked is on whether: Swirl of the Root = BB's nothingness

I answered yes to this.

If the power of creation originated 8000 years ago,

I'm not saying that. The text seems to imply the divine authority (not the ability itself) derived from the goddess 8,000 years ago, not that the literal power of creation itself didnt exist 8,000 years ago. There's a considerable distinction there.

A natural interpretation of this is that she is ultimately the source/root for all creation acts on Earth by spawning the earth mother goddesses who performed them.

If your position is contradictory, that makes it fundamentally inferior to a non-contradictory position, and therefore inferior to the OP's thesis.

The only way to hold this position is to posit that it is a coincidence that:

A) Using this goddess' power gives her an ability identical to Shiki

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."

"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

B) That this is called Potnia Theron and Manaka is called Potnia Theron by Caster who considers her "Queen of the Root." That's not reasonable, in my opinion. Even if you believe the statement represents a contradiction, that does not overwrite what it plainly says.

A goddess, including the goddess of Çatalhöyük, having an authority based on creating the universe from primordial chaos or nothingness doesn't mean that she chronologically pre-exist humans, as her existence is actually contingent on their worship.

Then she would either be an exception or this would be an anti-feat. Again, this doesn't override the scan. Even if your argument is taken at face value the conclusion would simply be "Nasu wrote something contradictory again."

you are trying to force a convoluted connection about crowns.

No, it's about the title Potnia Theron, not the Ten Crowns. You're the one that brought up crowns.

This is the logical implication for the Ten Crowns being the power of the Root, and some sort of subtext for it. If the implication is ridiculous, it should be dropped.

That's not really logical. Void Shiki has powers that -- in their earthly applications -- are also bound by duality.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I know, Marshadow is banned from Nasuverse topic nonetheless but the person speaking here, isn't Shiki Ryougi, it's just regular Shiki, the pitch of the voice of 「Shiki Ryougi」 and that of Ryougi Shiki is different, Ryougi's one comes off as more masculine as it does here, assuming he just picked this up from reddit or space battles. Ryougi defeats and kills Archetype Earth nonetheless, the tone at which she was speaking about Arcueid there and in Melty Blood had changed too, considering how confident she was when going up against her.

Well, being the messenger I am, this is how they replied:

All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive.

Both Artoria and Arcueid got many buffs and changes, but void/ryougi has stayed almost thesame throughout. The only major change was that she was compared to a Sword Saint while using a sword, which can hold their own with servants. Overall this scaling is way more consistent than you implying ryougi can beat archetype (lmao?), when she’s consistently put below servants, but on a level where she can fight with them somewhat evenly. And this is with a sword btw. Ryougi with a sword is stated to make knife Ryougi look like a common musou enemy. And you think she can beat an ultimate one. Also before you cope that they’re different, they’re heavily implied to be one and the same.

It was immediately decided that Ryougi Shiki's style was to fight with Mystic Eyes and a knife. However, the truth is this: This woman is originally a murderer who wields a katana. Compared to her current self, her usual self pales in comparison. "...I was deceived. The fight to the death with Asagami Fujino was not serious, was it?" To the magus's words, Ryougi Shiki shook her head in denial. Her cold eyes conveyed that she is always serious, no matter what weapon she uses. Receiving her gaze, the magus realized. Now—what did this woman answer? What kind of vessel is here? When did this opponent stop being Shiki? "I see...so we finally meet...!" Holding his left arm to stop the bleeding from the wound on his shoulder, the magus roars. The woman in the white kimono—Ryougi-Shiki—showed an unmistakably feminine smile. Just like that, she launched an attack on the magus.

The fact that Ryougi is stated to be originally a katana wielder is referencing the fact that void is the original personality, and Araya notes that it seems like Shiki switched vessels, and stopped being Shiki all together.

Void even has this skill in FGO,which regular Ryougi does not.

Cloud Shine: B

After switching one's attitude to that of a swordsman, the user performs ultra-high speed movements and slashes. Five intervals... nine meters of space are instantly covered, as if a flash of light.

Self suggestion ryougi is fan-fic. Doesn’t help that nearly every depiction of void has her using a sword as well.
Also, sword wielding ryougi/void was threatened by the collapse of a building. Sure, the collapse was started by Arayas magecraft, but it did nothing besides decreasing the stability of the building, allowing it to collapse. No added AP.

Also, Ryougi canonically loses to the extra servants.

The arcade mode in question is called a dream, it even says in the same raw scan you sent, but they leave that off in the English version. Even then, the entry for her confirms it’s a dream,just whether it’s her own or someone else’s is unknown. In the very same arcade mode, Ryougi says that death doesn’t exist for arc, and she can’t see her death.
Her only wincon doesn’t work, she’s massively outclassed in every stat. The god killer part is just referencing her catchphrase, lmao. Ryougi is just putting on a brave face.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, being the messenger I am, this is how they replied:

What is the username of the individual you're in contact with off site? If it's a banned user you shouldn't be their proxy. If it isn't a banned user they should comment themselves.

 

[GarrixianXD]

What is the username of the individual you're in contact with off site? If it's a banned user you shouldn't be their proxy. If it isn't a banned user they should comment themselves.

I'm unsure if that user is okay with me disclosing his identity and I do not know if he's even a member of this site therefore I wouldn't even know if he's banned. Even if he is, he may not want his identity disclosed on-site due to the toxicity he may attract. Though, I'll say that this is as far I'll go. I only complied since I saw Theoretical kinda asking for a response from him.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Well, being the messenger I am, this is how they replied:

All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive.

Both Artoria and Arcueid got many buffs and changes, but void/ryougi has stayed almost thesame throughout. The only major change was that she was compared to a Sword Saint while using a sword, which can hold their own with servants. Overall this scaling is way more consistent than you implying ryougi can beat archetype (lmao?), when she’s consistently put below servants, but on a level where she can fight with them somewhat evenly. And this is with a sword btw. Ryougi with a sword is stated to make knife Ryougi look like a common musou enemy. And you think she can beat an ultimate one. Also before you cope that they’re different, they’re heavily implied to be one and the same.

It was immediately decided that Ryougi Shiki's style was to fight with Mystic Eyes and a knife. However, the truth is this: This woman is originally a murderer who wields a katana. Compared to her current self, her usual self pales in comparison. "...I was deceived. The fight to the death with Asagami Fujino was not serious, was it?" To the magus's words, Ryougi Shiki shook her head in denial. Her cold eyes conveyed that she is always serious, no matter what weapon she uses. Receiving her gaze, the magus realized. Now—what did this woman answer? What kind of vessel is here? When did this opponent stop being Shiki? "I see...so we finally meet...!" Holding his left arm to stop the bleeding from the wound on his shoulder, the magus roars. The woman in the white kimono—Ryougi-Shiki—showed an unmistakably feminine smile. Just like that, she launched an attack on the magus.

The fact that Ryougi is stated to be originally a katana wielder is referencing the fact that void is the original personality, and Araya notes that it seems like Shiki switched vessels, and stopped being Shiki all together.

Void even has this skill in FGO,which regular Ryougi does not.

Cloud Shine: B

After switching one's attitude to that of a swordsman, the user performs ultra-high speed movements and slashes. Five intervals... nine meters of space are instantly covered, as if a flash of light.

Self suggestion ryougi is fan-fic. Doesn’t help that nearly every depiction of void has her using a sword as well.
Also, sword wielding ryougi/void was threatened by the collapse of a building. Sure, the collapse was started by Arayas magecraft, but it did nothing besides decreasing the stability of the building, allowing it to collapse. No added AP.

Also, Ryougi canonically loses to the extra servants.

The arcade mode in question is called a dream, it even says in the same raw scan you sent, but they leave that off in the English version. Even then, the entry for her confirms it’s a dream,just whether it’s her own or someone else’s is unknown. In the very same arcade mode, Ryougi says that death doesn’t exist for arc, and she can’t see her death.
Her only wincon doesn’t work, she’s massively outclassed in every stat. The god killer part is just referencing her catchphrase, lmao. Ryougi is just putting on a brave face.

Give me a moment, i will deal with this

 

[Deagonx]

Give me a moment, i will deal with this

It'd be better to just ignore it. If it is Marshadow or even just someone who straight up isn't a user here, it'd honestly be better to delete it.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

It'd be better to just ignore it. If it is Marshadow or even just someone who straight up isn't a user here, it'd honestly be better to delete it.

Deagon, can you let hyperzero95 comment here? You know who. or only admins can allow that?

 

[Deagonx]

Deagon, can you let hyperzero95 comment here? You know who. or only admins can allow that?

I'm not inherently opposed to it, but I don't know that user and the discussion has already covered a lot of ground. Do you believe he has something to add that hasn't already been said by yourself, Shadow, Paul, or Theoretical?

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I'm not inherently opposed to it, but I don't know that user and the discussion has already covered a lot of ground. Do you believe he has something to add that hasn't already been said by yourself, Shadow, Paul, or Theoretical?

Yes, i fully believe so, he is way more knowledgable in TM then i am.

 

[Deagonx]

Very well, he can make a comment.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Very well, he can make a comment.

Thank you

 

[Agnaa]

It'd be better to just ignore it. If it is Marshadow or even just someone who straight up isn't a user here, it'd honestly be better to delete it.

I disagree. I could get what you were saying if it was about a user banned for misrepresenting/fabricating evidence, but in every other case, we should (and do) allow it. The content of an argument is what matters, not who said it.

The one real caveat being, if those posts involve rule-breaking (i.e. fabricating evidence), then Garrixian will be liable for not vetting the posts properly to avoid that.

 

[Tdjwo]

I disagree. I could get what you were saying if it was about a user banned for misrepresenting/fabricating evidence, but in every other case, we should (and do) allow it. The content of an argument is what matters, not who said it.

The one real caveat being, if those posts involve rule-breaking (i.e. fabricating evidence), then Garrixian will be liable for not vetting the posts properly to avoid that.

Wait, so if ur banned, u can still contribute to a crt as long as ur not breaking the rule?

 

[Agnaa]

Wait, so if ur banned, u can still contribute to a crt as long as ur not breaking the rule?

We allow a few occasional posts to be passed on from banned users, if on-site users care to do so, but it can't reach such a frequency that it's circumventing a ban. As long as they weren't banned for things along the lines of fabricating evidence.

For other cases where one may want to do that (if they simply never made an account, or if they can't log into their account right now), there's no such limit.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Well, being the messenger I am, this is how they replied:

All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive.

Both Artoria and Arcueid got many buffs and changes, but void/ryougi has stayed almost thesame throughout. The only major change was that she was compared to a Sword Saint while using a sword, which can hold their own with servants. Overall this scaling is way more consistent than you implying ryougi can beat archetype (lmao?), when she’s consistently put below servants, but on a level where she can fight with them somewhat evenly. And this is with a sword btw. Ryougi with a sword is stated to make knife Ryougi look like a common musou enemy. And you think she can beat an ultimate one. Also before you cope that they’re different, they’re heavily implied to be one and the same.

It was immediately decided that Ryougi Shiki's style was to fight with Mystic Eyes and a knife. However, the truth is this: This woman is originally a murderer who wields a katana. Compared to her current self, her usual self pales in comparison. "...I was deceived. The fight to the death with Asagami Fujino was not serious, was it?" To the magus's words, Ryougi Shiki shook her head in denial. Her cold eyes conveyed that she is always serious, no matter what weapon she uses. Receiving her gaze, the magus realized. Now—what did this woman answer? What kind of vessel is here? When did this opponent stop being Shiki? "I see...so we finally meet...!" Holding his left arm to stop the bleeding from the wound on his shoulder, the magus roars. The woman in the white kimono—Ryougi-Shiki—showed an unmistakably feminine smile. Just like that, she launched an attack on the magus.

The fact that Ryougi is stated to be originally a katana wielder is referencing the fact that void is the original personality, and Araya notes that it seems like Shiki switched vessels, and stopped being Shiki all together.

Void even has this skill in FGO,which regular Ryougi does not.

Cloud Shine: B

After switching one's attitude to that of a swordsman, the user performs ultra-high speed movements and slashes. Five intervals... nine meters of space are instantly covered, as if a flash of light.

Self suggestion ryougi is fan-fic. Doesn’t help that nearly every depiction of void has her using a sword as well.
Also, sword wielding ryougi/void was threatened by the collapse of a building. Sure, the collapse was started by Arayas magecraft, but it did nothing besides decreasing the stability of the building, allowing it to collapse. No added AP.

Also, Ryougi canonically loses to the extra servants.

The arcade mode in question is called a dream, it even says in the same raw scan you sent, but they leave that off in the English version. Even then, the entry for her confirms it’s a dream,just whether it’s her own or someone else’s is unknown. In the very same arcade mode, Ryougi says that death doesn’t exist for arc, and she can’t see her death.
Her only wincon doesn’t work, she’s massively outclassed in every stat. The god killer part is just referencing her catchphrase, lmao. Ryougi is just putting on a brave face.

Spoiler: Gonna collapse it as it is long as heck

All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God. All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God.

All around Type-Moon is a joke parody where Artoria, Ryougi and Arcueid somehow meets together in the same exact timeline with no established explanation or anything of the sorts. No different from Carnival Phantasm or the joke routes in Melty Blood where Hisui can shake the planet. Metafiction is not a compelling argument. If anything, it's further proof that AATM is non-canon since the characters break the fourth wall, which highlights its comedic and non-serious nature.

The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning,

No, it's further proof that AATM is a blatant joke parody and not meant to be taken seriously or used for scaling. Saber swinging a brick sword is objectively less pratical than normal Ryougi doing the same exact thing, with the added effect of her MEoDP and the metaphysical properties of her swordmanship skills embodying the Root's essence. Also, didn't they say that Saber is more pratical than Ryougi AND Arcueid? Further proof this is nonsense and just a way for TM to save face and not anger Saber stans in an irrelevant joke parody of all things. Going by actual lore, feats and statements, Artoria is super fodder and gets folded by Arcueid and Ryougi at their weakest.

and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive.

Further proof AATM is nonsense and ignorant of actual lore, considering that Void stated that she can crush and rewrite all of creation as if it wasn't a big deal at all:

—So I can do - whatever. Recompose the the laws of nature, revert living beings to their evolutionary forebears. To overturn the system of the world, there's simply nothing to it. It's not a remaking. I simply crush the old one with the new world in its place. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

And the entire goal behind Araya reaching the One through Ryougi's body was returning everything to Nothingness and record all history:

"───So that's why you crave the Root. It has all the records. Even if it doesn't, it can reduce everything to nothing. You want to erase all these filthy humans for your own sake," she said. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

"... When you attempt to touch the Akashic Records, the Counter Force moves to stop you. When someone who hates humanity like you gains omnipotence, it raises the chances of the world's end. There are two kinds of Counter Force. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Oh, here is Ryougi, an inferior personality, using MEoDP to destroy an infinite realm and the abstract boundaries defining it:

Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

And MEoDP is merely an aspect of Void's vast powers (As they include all imaginable powers since Akasha is the source of everything):

Eyes of Direct Death is only one aspect of the powers of this body called "Ryougi Shiki".- Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception [Others], p.035-036.

Here is Tohno, whose MEoDP at the time was objectively inferior to Ryougi's due to being unable to kill abstract concepts, but only the concept of "you" meant as an entity with concrete existence, killing Maiko Yamase, who embodied a self-contained universe approaching True Chaos (The middle ground where potential is shaped after either Yin or Yang) and merging Heaven (Akasha) and Earth in other words, a second creation. This contrasts with Gaia, which was formed by "separating" Heaven and Earth from True Chaos. Maiko had the ability to reshape the abstract forms defining Creation by connecting to True Chaos and potentially rewrite all of creation.Indeed, Arcueid herself said that no one she knows of (Which includes herself among others like Kaie Karyou, Type-Moon, Altrouge, Aoko etc), could destroy Maiko, while Tohno could:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265510332122665062/TOnLqJ4.png?ex=66a1c5d7&is=66a07457&hm=9f6d52173a9e1949d7ddc5d99fe9f683a8c4b9e60c041c7582fe867fced09e0c&

And obviously Ryougi can easily replicate it as Tohno is explicitly unable to see abstract concepts at this point in time, while Ryougi can. She destroyed the abstract foundations of an infinite dimension, so there is no question she can directly affect True Chaos itself, rather than rely on the existence of Maiko as an entity with tangible presence like Tohno was limited to. And Void confirmed she can kill everything with no exceptions by the time of the Epilogue:

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to naught. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

AATM's version of Ryougi considering Arcueid's MP as impressive is secondary and contradicting to primary lore featuring Arcueid conceding inferiority to a single aspect of Void's powerset. This is why, after all, Base Ryougi folded Archetype Earth. Nothing to see here.Do you seriously think MP is greater than MEoDP, with all of the in-story wank the eyes receive? Arcueid even said Tohno can be said to be even more of a monster than her thanks to them. And Wallachia said that Nanaya's power is hard to pass up and fits him as a killer more than Arcueid, and Nanaya is below Ryougi in overall power and potential.

Both Artoria and Arcueid got many buffs and changes

??? Arcueid has been hard nerfed, with things like her self-destructing if she goes over a certain limit with her back up, or her losing her abstract reality warping with Marble Phantasm. Not that it matters, since we are clearly debating the Arcueid from the Original continuity, not the Remake version. KnK is set into the OG Tsukihime in the first place.

The only major change was that she was compared to a Sword Saint while using a sword, which can hold their own with servants

Sword Saint is a cringe dollar store copy of Self Hypnosis, nerfed just so that can Servants can compete with it. Par the course for Modern TM.

Original Shiki's Self Hypnosis technique reconfigures both her body and mind entirely for combat, transforming her muscles and blood vessels so she doesn't even need to breathe. It removes all human functions, leaving her as a living weapon:

A long, long, time ago. Samurai had been said to accept killing and be killed naturally the moment their swords were drawn. This wasn't because of an emotional state as a warrior. The instant they gripped the handle, they would awaken. Their bodies transform into ones existing only for killing, their brains turn into ones moving only for survival. This wasn't beyond the level of bracing oneself before a match. By drawing their katana, the functions of their brain switched. They were not switching their body to one suited for battle. Their brain was remaking their bodies into one fit for combat. By doing so, the muscles work in a way that should not be used by living beings, and the veins change the circulation route of the blood, prevent them from even breathing. ... Yes, human functions useless in battle are completely ejected as they are transformed into a part meant for war. "That stance. So you transformed yourself by autosuggestion. I'm surprised." The woman in the kimono answered, yes, to the muttering of the pained magus. The true identity of the fear that ran down Araya the moment Shiki opened her eyes was this. The magus cursed his ignorance. To think that there was a clan that this skill had been passed down to the current age. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

In Stay Night, it's stated that the principle behind martial arts, archery, and magecraft is "Nothingness," where the user rids themselves of unnecessary attachments and becomes one with nature to execute their task:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265510964078444584/pffroso.png?ex=66a1c66d&is=66a074ed&hm=8c41060423d3f20ff39a1fa324f96cb577bfc19e3ac65ef85cf2b3cab0932528&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265510991228043396/S5WL75Y.png?ex=66a1c674&is=66a074f4&hm=389080e0f35d410d223bc4e0d9f190310ac156eec9c811f103651559dc7d21b7&

This mirrors Shiki's self-hypnosis. The Ryougi family has based their powers on Taiji and Akasha. Their dual personality represents Yin and Yang unified in one system, giving them versatility. They can awaken Shiki's Origin and protect her from the Counterforce during birth. Shiki herself is an empty vessel crafted from Akasha, described as necessary to reach the source of all things due to her purity. This suggests that Shiki's self-hypnosis is the highest application of the Nothingness principle, supported by Shiki's statement that her family followed this principle to extremes:

"I suppose I have something along those lines. I train by taking down everything using that as my premise, so if you call it a finishing move, it is one. But we aren't of that school. And it's originally a self-created style as well. "The thing you train is your mindset, Ryougi adds. "You remake your body. From your breathing to the placement of your feet, awareness, thoughts, to be able to remake all of them for combat. Even the way of using your muscles changes, so it might feel like you become a different person. I suppose tensing your body and mind as a fight starts, and while you are fighting, is the foundation of all martial arts. However, we followed only that too much, and as a result our path went too far. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

In KnK, self-hypnosis is further described as a suggestion used to execute predetermined systems, such as martial arts or magecraft, customized to bring out the user's true nature. The stronger the suggestion, the stronger the effect:

-- Spells. Within the realm of mages, they were nothing more than suggestions aimed at oneself.There is a magecraft for causing wind to blow. Just like a certain type of weapon, this was a power which had an ability that was determined from the start. No matter what mage used it, its effect would not change. Only the incantation was different.The incantations called spells were for the purpose of activating the magecraft that one's body had become familiar with. Its contents showed the nature of the mage. That was because as long as you kept the necessary meanings and keywords for the activation of that particular piece of magecraft, the details of the incantation could be changed to suit the user's fancy.The incantations of a narcissistic and pompous mage who easily got infatuated with themself was long. But it was also true that the more meaning you put into the spell, the more powerful the final effect. This was because the stronger the suggestion you put upon yourself, the stronger the ability you pulled out from yourself would be. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Shiki's self-hypnosis brings out her true nature as an empty vessel, aligning her with her Origin of Akasha/Nothingness. This transformation empties her mind, leaving her with clarity and transparency, and channels her impulse to kill, making her body a killing machine. Origin-awakened characters become stronger the more they align with their impulse, and Shiki's impulse is to kill all of creation, desiring to return to the Nothingness she represents.



Shiki reaches a state of Nothingness and becomes one with her sword, achieving a perfect combat mindset. Araya Souren noted her stance as the strongest and most foundational, symbolizing her connection to Nothingness, the source of all combat disciplines:

It was a seigan stance—the most widely used and foundational posture in many schools of swordsmanship, regarded as the strongest. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

She draws out Void Shiki's combat skills while remaining in control, which is why Araya said she stopped being Shiki and that he finally met "her," seeing a glimpse of Void as the line between them blurred.
Moreover, Shiki's swordsmanship is formidable enough to contend with supernatural entities without the power of her Mystic Eyes and even allows her to see into the future:

For Shiki, the knife is just a substitute. The weapon she is most accustomed to using is a katana. When Shiki wields a katana, she can contend with supernatural entities even without using her Mystic Eyes, and she can even achieve a level of future sight similar to that of Akira Seo. - Character Introduction from Tsukihime's fourth Character Popularity Poll

This future sight was demonstrated when she foresaw where Araya would teleport, allowing her to intercept him:

The magus suddenly appeared at the garden, and without wasting time after his spatial shift, struck out his remaining arm. He looked up at the night sky and opened the palm of his hand so as to crush the circular tower. But at that instant, his body was slashed from the shoulder down. At that instant, his body was slashed from the shoulder down."Ryougi.....Shiki. "The magus, looking up at the sky, murmured."You.....""....Impossible."Unbelievable, he had said. It was natural for him to. Because, when the magus appeared at the garden and looked up at the sky, what was there was Ryougi Shiki, falling down from the tenth floor. The woman he was fighting - at the instant the magus had connected space from the mansion to the garden and moved - had jumped without hesitation from the hallway of the 10th floor. The magus' form still remained on the 10th floor, but she had jumped off to get to Araya Souren at the garden when he hadn't yet existed there. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Araya stated that Shiki's true fighting style was being a killer with a katana, with her knife and Mystic Eyes being substitutes, indicating that her sword skills are formidable on their own. And combined with the 4th poll statement shows that it carries metaphysical properties that can rival the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception:

No one had known her true form. He had assumed that Ryougi Shiki's fighting style was by her mystic eyes and knife. But the truth was this. This woman is meant to be a killer using a katana. Compared to how she is know, her normal self cannot even match up to her. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This is further supported by Void's Last Arc in Melty Blood, where she performs a seemingly simple slash with her sword, even though the game goes out of its way to not show MEoDP activated during the move. The attack is named 'Empty Boundaries,' after Akasha/The One, indicating the transcendental nature of Shiki's swordsmanship. Shiki's Origin powers are based on the One, the underlying unity behind all things and the source of existence. Her MEoDP represents the fundamental truth that all things are contingent on the One for their existence and can be ended by it. MEoDP is only one aspect of her vast power; her Origin makes her an empty vessel capable of using all powers like Void, though she lacks the knowledge to wield them. MEoDP aligns with her nature and impulse of nihilism the most out of them, and she gained knowledge of it after coming in contact with Death during her coma and perceiving it with her mind. Her self-hypnosis instead represents that fundamental truth in sword combat, where swords symbolize purity and truth in many cultures. This means her sword skills align her movements with fundamental truths, and her strikes carry a metaphysical weight to them, allowing her to damage the true essence of her enemies, regardless of their nature (Be it physical, metaphysical, magical, intangible etc.). Her alignment with the interconnectedness of all things also grants her the ability to glimpse into the future. (edited)



When combined with MEoDP, her sword skills complement it by bringing the truth of both death and existence into combat. If self-hypnosis synchronizes Shiki's actions with fundamental truths, and the lines of Death also count as truths of existence, then Shiki's self-hypnosis makes her take the most perfect actions to trace them, making her a weapon of unmatched lethality and skill.

Overall this scaling is way more consistent than you implying ryougi can beat archetype (lmao?)

I'm not "implying" anything, because it was officially stated that Ryougi killed Archetype Earth in Actress Again. It happened. It's a true event. There is nothing to imply, there is only you trying to cope with this.

when she’s consistently put below servants

Where?Nasu's incoherent mess of interview statements? The guy who gets even basic lore and characterization wrong to the point the Zero writers made fun of him for that? The guy who contradicts his WoG with other WoG? The guy who admitted to being a compulsive liar, that his words are not absolute as he felt Gen was more fit than him for an answer regarding Zero, and admitted that his team forced him to rewrite Tsukihime almost entirely or add story elements against his will, meaning it's questionable how much he even knows?And even then, are you aware that Nasu stated that Void is the second strongest in a list that included the DAAs, Types etc.? Right? Or that he said that Azaka (Who conceded she cannot match up to regular Shiki) is stronger than Touko, who can keep up with Aoko in speed? Such statements places Ryougi above Servants, so you saying that he "consistently" places Shiki below Servants is cherrypicking, regardless of you being aware of it or not. At least I am honest instead and know that his statements are contradicting and impossible to use. On top of always losing against the actual source material in the case of logical contradictions anyway.In the actual franchise? Ryougi's body/Soul is full of black boxes/abstract phenomena/Origins due to being Akasha/Nothingness itself, which is the source of all phenomena and concepts:

"Her body is full of black boxes so I can't even make anything similar." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

And a single one of these Black Boxes is so powerful that Servants are automatically obliterated by trying to wield it more than once DESPITE having the support of a Mythological Mystic Code:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265511821876658218/xeKn0Z5.png?ex=66a1c73a&is=66a075ba&hm=6134471e91b31f1dd0edcecf5924c9c3a1b1db951c06624f64a43b78db97d66e&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265511851488182375/ymr7AbO.png?ex=66a1c741&is=66a075c1&hm=6a9de1a631bbc951d1f2909ab607ccca78fb6b103cd07af32d011e0cdfccc7df&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265511893532020867/5w23oaN.png?ex=66a1c74b&is=66a075cb&hm=79cea165a28f036119d427bc31aa62f8f7f7f6f7c5a107038c4b0c31f7123600&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265511927124332585/BCmAc2H.png?ex=66a1c753&is=66a075d3&hm=17a00dbf96e21693de816df1ed988e31ede667b7689846d2efad540ed85d957e&

So a small fraction of Ryougi's essence can disintegrate Servants passively.Then we have people with an inferior Origin awakening to Ryougi such as Nanaya Shiki playing with Arcueid as if she was fodder, dodging her attacks with the hands in his pockets:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265512156716208272/Uah3Pzh.png?ex=66a1c78a&is=66a0760a&hm=7748da85079e6147946054a3a5e1655776e2e819cbb77be5e2777d533b21bfad&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265512188307832893/bDoJy76.png?ex=66a1c791&is=66a07611&hm=a1cde9927f197a150c43a5cd7c9b4eca75b97e35ba47c3701c6082633a332363&

forcing her to summon archetype earth to win

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1192310693765062770/1265512252187082784/anPKxXl.png?ex=66a1c7a1&is=66a07621&hm=3d4b2fc9da91f24b2d25a9eed9a7882a61431e55906ece8e3b059dd8ecf75db3&

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Yet Arcueid, as I'm sure you'd agree with, can obliterate Servants casually, especially given she has been consistently stated to rival Crimson Moon in power and scale

:https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...21f517f519f5967739e433e2e13fcbd55eb1f29240c2&

Arcueid after she has succumbed to her vampiric impulse and lost her ability to reason.Though regarded as equivalent to the Crimson Moon, she is a completely different entity. You could say she’s the materialized form of Arcueid’s overflowing vampiric impulse. When Berserk Arcueid appears, Arcueid herself is freed from her desire to drink blood. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Dictionary: Berserk Arcueid [Person's name • True Ancestor], p.050Another name for the organism that was used as the template for the True Ancestors. Also known as the Crimson Moon Brunestud. After he vanished, individuals close to him in power started being honored with the title of Brunestud. However, in the long history of the True Ancestors, only two have ever received the name. - MB Act Cadenza PS2 Manual: Tsukihime Dictionary

The same Nanaya also moved faster than Fully Inverted Akiha could visually track, who has been stated to probably exceed a rampaging (Red) Arcueid:

“In one of the routes, she ended up inverting and demonstrating her power to its fullest extent That dreadful form, with its fluttering vermillion hair, is probably capable of exceeding even a rampaging Arcueid.” - Tsukihime Plud Period

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We then have Ryougi herself wiping her ass with Nrvnqsr Chaos, a Top Tier DAA and one of the 27 DAA while still being sleepy (lol) :

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And even in her win quote, Ryougi is more annoyed at her needing to kill so many monsters rather than being strained in any capacity in dispatching Nrvnqsr. Normal Dead Apostle Ancestors that are utterly beneath anomalies like Nrvnqsr are compared to Divine Spirits and mountain sized Divine Beasts:

Introduction - Four Great Demon BeastsFour Demon - The Great Beast.The familiars that serve as limbs for Merem Solomon, the Dead Apostle who is both one of the 27 Ancestors and the Burial Agency.It is said that each one is equal to a single Ancestor. - Character Materials - The Four Great Demon Beasts

Explanation 03 - Demon of the Right LegClass: King of the EarthUser Wish: Manifestation of divine punishment and huge tsunamiDesign reference: The animal sculptures and stuffed animals decorating the temple, and also the temple itselfThe black dog of destruction. The bell of the end. The dog of gods. The whale dog.The demon of conquest and destruction that Merem prefers to drag along with him. It doesn't have any specific powers, but just having a huge body close to 200 meters in length is enough to qualify it as a "demon". - Character Materials - Four Great Demon Beasts

The whole forest shook, and suddenly, one of the boy's legs ruptured.If there was such a thing as a god's beast, then it would refer to something like that.A dark mass. A silhouette like a whale stood up from the middle of the forest.Were there so many birds in this forest of death? A flock of wild birds, big enough to cover the stars, fly up.The black whale, made a sound like a scream.Something was clinging at an alarming rate, starting from the legs of the giant beast.It was a group of trees, literally running over the black skin of the whale.The enormous beast, which had the size of a mountain, was covered entirely by trees in less than a minute, and halted, becoming a new part of the forest.The beast that would stomp and crush the world was, however, defeated by the corrosion of the world it should crush. - Tsukihime 2: Talk

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DAAs are also massively above normal Dead Apostles, who are already comparable to prime Kirei in combat prowess:

Monster. There were no other words to describe the man before him. At this moment, Kotomine Kirei’s current combat ability is equal to that of a Dead Apostle - Fate/Zero Act 16

The same Kirei with a speed feat that arguably surpasses Saber under Kiritsugu, and whose inferior SN iteration matched a lower tier Servants under disadvantageous conditions.Oh look, a higher level but still normal Dead Apostle like Jester can rival Servant Gilgamesh:

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Yet even Ancestors are nothing special to Ryougi in combat. And of course, we have Ryougi later killing Archetype Earth herself:

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Also notice how Ryougi said that Nrvnqsr was way easier to kill than Araya Souren. This is also evident by how Shiki could defeat him with ease with her knife, while she required her katana to defeat Souren. This is because Souren has the second strongest Origin awakening in the verse (Stillness, which is essentially the Dyad from Plato, acting as the "dark" counterpart of the One in TM in a Yin-Yang dynamic that has been blatantly symbolized in KNK between him and Ryougi) combined with the strongest willpower in the entire verse (OA beings can raise their stats according to their strength of will and mental state) and centuries of combat experience. With the novel even stating that no one in the modern era could compete with Araya in close combat:

Thus, the only way for Araya to eliminate Touko was through close combat. Araya was a man who had survived tumultuous times. In physical combat, there was no one in the modern era who could stand against him. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

And of course, Araya blitzed and stomped Knife Ryougi with minimal effort, despite this same Ryougi having defeated Nrvnqsr Chaos and Archetype Earth.Yet Self Hypnosis Ryougi speedblitzed Araya while being half dead and barely standing up:

Araya became witness to it. The extraordinary feat of the girl, moving after his scream, then acting faster than his scream. Both arms, holding the katana, came up, at a speed fast enough to be mistaken for a flash. The katana raised high was then swung down with swiftness even greater. The scream Shuku was cut in half by the sound of the slashing blade. The spatial distortion that should have crushed Shiki was killed before her. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5The magus once again focused power into his arm. He only opened the palm of his hand and clenched it. But just doing that, however was too slow in the face of Ryougi Shiki's sprint. Araya, having no time to say anything or to even think, received it. Ryougi Shiki burst forth. She ran, still in the stance she was when she slashed the distortion, to attack the magus. Before she stepped forward, Ryougi Shiki swiped the katana in a horizontal line. The barriers the magus was relying on dispersed. So as long as it was only the outermost one, he had in fact, been prepared for it to be killed by one attack. If she came close, he had planned to use the time Shiki spent killing the second one to end the battle. But, she, with just one swing, simultaneously obliterated the two outer barriers within range, then took one step forward. If her sword swung at godlike speed, how fast was her movement? -Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Ryougi Shiki with only one step covered a space of four meters. Her body flowed. The one step she walked was at the same time a step to repeat her deadly slashes. It almost even seemed as if with her unbelievably fast body, time wasn't so much as being stopped but rewound. The slash came at him. The magus leapt back. Ryougi Shiki looked at the magus, still in the stance of swinging the katana. A stream of fresh blood dripped from her lips. She had not received any injuries. It was simply just her wounds from last night opening. With several ribs and organs damaged, blood regurgitated out from her mouth by her merely walking. Bearing wounds so grave, she still performs her slashing dance. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5The right arm of the leaping magus fell. No, not his arm. His arm, from the top of the shoulder down diagonally into the chest, fell to the floor of the hallway. The magus, Araya Souren - possessing the physical prowess to dodge even a speeding bullet after it was fired - leapt back after he had been completely cut, while not realizing he had been. "Who are you?" The magus didn't spare a look at the damage and looked at the person standing frozen ahead of him.- Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5That attack just now indeed would have brought him a fatal wound. Had Shiki's second slash killed not two, but three of his barriers, Araya's body would have been cleaved in two from the torso. The magus's closest one, his first barrier, Fugu, prevented that. Its protection faintly slowed her advance, sparing him a fatal wound. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Ryougi Shiki looked at the magus, still in the stance of swinging the katana. A stream of fresh blood dripped from her lips. She had not received any injuries. It was simply just her wounds from last night opening. With several ribs and organs damaged, blood regurgitated out from her mouth by her merely walking. Bearing wounds so grave, she still performs her slashing dance. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5Coughing, blood dripped from her mouth. Had yesterday's injuries not been there, she would have slashed at the magus without rest and may have decapitated him. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

So no, I have absolutely no idea where you got that Ryougi is "consistently" below Servants when the entire franchise tells you she is special and a big deal, even to people like Arcueid or Tsukihime characters. Oh wait, maybe you meant in non-canon parody works? The fact that's the only source you can rely on to even place Arcueid above Ryougi is telling. Reminder that same parody you are referencing has Arcueid thinking Artoria's brick sword with no special properties or hax to it is a force to be reckoned with. Or Ryougi thinking that MP is above Akasha, which is fundamentally incoherent as MP's reality warping and all phenomena and non-locality is sourced from Akasha in the first place. And Arcueid herself, alongside Roa, Wallachia or others constantly wank how mighty and great MEoDP alone is in comparison to True Ancestors and vampires.

The fact that Ryougi is stated to be originally a katana wielder is referencing the fact that void is the original personality, and Araya notes that it seems like Shiki switched vessels, and stopped being Shiki all together.

? Ryougi's true fighting style being using Self Hypnosis has literally nothing to do with Void.



Regarding the rest, again, SH brings out Shiki's inner nature as an empty vessel and fully aligns her with her Origin. Hence she was using Void's swordmanship skills and acting similar to her, so much that Araya may have seen a glimpse of Void and may have confused her with Self Hypnosis Ryougi, or the difference was so slight he couldn't even tell, hence his confusion and fear. Just like how Tohno acts very closely to Nanaya when extremely serious or as DEATH, or how Kishima seems to be what an "Agent of Destruction" would be when in CRV. Ryougi in this state is essentially a pseudo Void channeled by Self Hypnosis entirely for Shiki's sword fighting. That's why Araya said "We finally meet" , referring to him finally facing Ryougi Shiki at her maximum power possible without Void outright taking over, but still making use of her true nature. But the one in control was still Shiki. It's simply that the line between her and Void were blurred in SH. We know that it wasn't Void as Shiki was described as smiling in a feminine way, which reflects her being the feminine personality, whereas Void in the Epilogue is described as distant with ice-cold eyes. With even her "smiles" being more akin to a mocking act rather than anything else. This references how SH empties Shiki's mind and let her act as her true feminine self, free of her internal conflict and attempts at honoring SHIKI's memory with her masculine act. Being entirely focused on combat and exercising her true nature of spiritual purity.



In addition, Void would never fight Araya in the first place, as they have actually have the same objective of ending creation, so it wouldn't make sense for them to fight each other lol. Araya even stated his original plan was to simply meet Void and draw her out, and only LATER he decided to take over her body and use her powers for himself:

So, what was it that you wanted, Araya? For Shiki and SHIKI to tear each other apart and leave behind an empty shell? Or did you just want to meet Ryougi Shiki?""Two years ago was to draw 'her' out. But it's different now. I told you the conclusion was already out. Shiki does not require that body. That body which is connected to the origin, I shall be taking it and making it my own." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

All of this points to her clearly being still normal Shiki, not Void. Especially when she spoke in the same manner Shiki would and nothing suggests she changed attitude in the first place.

Void even has this skill in FGO,which regular Ryougi does not.Cloud Shine: BAfter switching one's attitude to that of a swordsman, the user performs ultra-high speed movements and slashes. Five intervals... nine meters of space are instantly covered, as if a flash of light.

Are you for real? Lmao. This skill is a reference to this line:

Araya knew well that to the swordsmen in the past of the old schools, a distance of 3 ken (5 meters) was the equivalent of zero. Probably, the Shiki of earlier could even cover a space of 5 ken/nine meters with one step. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

If anything, this show that Ryougi is so powerful that her just WALKING is considered a special skill by Servant's standards. In fact, I thank you for providing this information. More proof Servants are super fodder to Ryougi: One step from her defies their understanding to the point their system had to classify it as a special skill, despite it being further restricted by Void's Servant container.

Self suggestion ryougi is fan-fic.

???? lolHere is the novel talking about it:

"Aikido is just for fun. There's only one thing I've done since I was young.""Since you were young, eh. I thought you were strong. It was you who let loose a high kick at the back of a fleeing opponent's head. I thought how you acted was different. It was because of that. So do you have anything like a finishing move?"I ask the lamest questions. But Ryougi goes mmm, and falls into serious thought."I suppose I have something along those lines. I train by taking down everything using that as my premise, so if you call it a finishing move, it is one. But we aren't of that school. And it's originally a self-created style as well."The thing you train is your mindset, Ryougi adds. "You remake your body. From your breathing to the placement of your feet, awareness, thoughts, to be able to remake all of them for combat. Even the way of using your muscles changes, so it might feel like you become a different person. I suppose tensing your body and mind as a fight starts, and while you are fighting, is the foundation of all martial arts. However, we followed only that too much, and as a result our path went too far."In response to this dialogue that seemed to scorn oneself, I couldn't do anything but **** my head. "What, if you are strong then that's that. There wont be any instances where you go around getting bashed up like me. And you finished off those three guys in an instant. That's an incredible self-created style right there. "When I spoke, remembering that refreshing instant of when I met this girl, Ryougi seems a bit surprised."That's different. I only copied what I had seen. More than that, there's never been an instance where I've used our house's school of fighting."She nonchalantly spat out that frightening statement, then Ryougi collapsed onto the bed and fell asleep. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

No, what should be surprising wasn't this. Shiki was completely different from what she was last night. Did anger over Enjou Tomoe's death allow her to exert power greater than normal? No, it definitely shouldn't be that. The magus glared at the girl in the white kimono. Ryougi Shiki corrected her stance, returning her grip on the katana from two hands to one. Just by doing that, the girl returned to the girl from yesterday. Coughing, blood dripped from her mouth. Had yesterday's injuries not been there, she would have slashed at the magus without rest and may have decapitated him."...? A difference based on the weapon?" Araya was astonished. The reason Shiki became like a different person was none other than from a method of controlling battle will, trained to the extreme. A long, long, time ago. Samurai had been said to accept killing and be killed naturally the moment their swords were drawn. This wasn't because of an emotional state as a warrior. The instant they gripped the handle, they would awaken. Their bodies transform into ones existing only for killing, their brains turn into ones moving only for survival. This wasn't beyond the level of bracing oneself before a match. By drawing their katana, the functions of their brain switched. They were not switching their body to one suited for battle. Their brain was remaking their bodies into one fit for combat. By doing so, the muscles work in a way that should not be used by living beings, and the veins change the circulation route of the blood, prevent them from even breathing. ... Yes, human functions useless in battle are completely ejected as they are transformed into a part meant for war. "That stance. So you transformed yourself by autosuggestion. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

So did the narrative end with Araya capturing Ryougi? Since according to you the technique that allowed Shiki to beat him is all imagination? LOL.

Also, sword wielding ryougi/void was threatened by the collapse of a building. Sure, the collapse was started by Arayas magecraft, but it did nothing besides decreasing the stability of the building, allowing it to collapse. No added AP.

Lies. It was explicitly stated that Araya would have crushed/compressed his complex with his own power, just like he already compresses space in general with his "Shuku" spell, but on a much larger scale:

The magus suddenly appeared at the garden, and without wasting time after his spatial shift, struck out his remaining arm. He looked up at the night sky and opened the palm of his hand so as to crush the circular tower. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5Araya chose to compress the mansion itself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

If Araya and Ryougi are building level, than Archetype, who is factually below either of them, would be wall level, which obviously doesn't line up, given how she played pinball with the continents. Tohno Shiki, who has a much weaker origin awakening than either Araya and Ryougi, physically stomped Dead Apostle Sion, who survived having the Moon slammed on her in her weaker base form (Same Tohno that lost to Base Ryougi FYI). And a weaker manifestation of Nanaya physically destroyed Nrvnqsr Chaos, who requires continental force in order to be destroyed.
And are you aware that Araya is flat out stated to be unmatched in the modern age in physical combat? Right? That includes Burial Agency members (Who considers even someone like Ciel to be a weakling) and other people way beyond building level.

Also, Ryougi canonically loses to the extra servants.

A restricted Ryougi into an unknown type of container, as she was vaguely summoned by Taiga with a vague wish granting device. And even the Moon Cell itself places the stuff it summones into containers always.The real Ryougi is above Nanaya, who killed Arcueid, who is massively stronger than Hakuno's Servants even as a Servant herself. And then there is the whole neat incident where the Servants in CCC required to wield a portion of Ryougi's power to combat BB, which was considered so extraordinary that no Servant outside Gilgamesh could use the MMC more than once. Meanwhile Ryougi's body is full of black boxes/abstract phenomena that forms Origins. So we know even further that Monster Ryougi is a nerfed version, as literally the entire Fate/Extra series hammers the point that Servants are fodder to Arcueid, an inferior dollar store Crimson Moon (BB) and Origin awakenings.

The arcade mode in question is called a dream, it even says in the same raw scan you sent, but they leave that off in the English version. Even then, the entry for her confirms it’s a dream, just whether it’s her own or someone else’s is unknown.

Ryougi isn't referring to her being in a literal dream, but is referring to her being trapped in a reality marble where everyone has vanished and it feels like a dream. Many characters have stated this. They are in the Tatari's reality marble summoned by Osiris. Even Wallachia himself refers to it as the "midsummer night's dream":

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Furthermore, even within this context, "dream" for Ryougi/Void in particular has a special significance, in relation to the Epilogue:

—That said, mine and Shiki's dreams seem to be different. Shiki, you see - she hates to be alone. I know. So pedestrian, isn't it? How tiresome Shiki is. How tiresome reality is. How tiresome - I am.Her voice, barely even a whisper. She was looking somewhere afar, deep into the night. As if it was of incalculable importance, something never to be seen again.—But there's no helping it, I'm afraid. I am a body and nothing more, after all. We are the one thing, she and I, so I've no choice but to follow along with her dream. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

Void explains that while hers and Ryougi's dreams are similar, they diverge in their perspectives. Ryougi despises the world but is willing to endure it for the sake of a peaceful life with Mikiya. In contrast, Void desires the end of creation and reality itself, despite still loving Mikiya. However, as Void is merely the body and Ryougi the mind with a stronger will, Void is compelled to follow Ryougi's dream.



In Melty Blood, Ryougi exceptionally follows Void's impulse to kill her target. She mentions to Tohno that this night is special because "Her" is urging her on for the first time. Here, Ryougi is acting on Void's dream of ending everything that exists, but this impulse is directed solely towards Archetype Earth. Consequently, Ryougi declares that the "dream is over" before their fight begins.And we further know this not a dream in truth because.....Melty Blood already explicitly show if Arcade routes are just dreams, scary stories told to friends, etc. But logically, all that it is referencing is either the unique dream-like nature of Tatari, or Ryougi following Void's impulse directed towards Arcueid. Nothing suggests this timeline is actually made up lol.

In the very same arcade mode, Ryougi says that death doesn’t exist for arc, and she can’t see her death.

Leaving out context now?Archetype states Ryougi has come to instill death into what which cannot die, with Ryougi seeing that Archetype currently has no end/death in her, but is still confident in killing her anyways:

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And the guidebook confirms Ryougi did indeed kill Archetype in that timeline:

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This is because those without a concept of death aren't truly immortal still, as they are contingent upon The One for their existence and can thus be ended by it.



MEoDP is the ultimate representation of the fact that everything that flows from The One/The Root is contingent upon it and is capable of ending and being returned to the source. Everything relies upon The One for its existence and can thus be ended by it. The only unending non-contingent thing is The One itself:

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05

"... Indeed, I was foolish. I should have had all the proof I needed after the events at the hospital. Whether it is dead or alive, if it moves you cut off the root of that motion. That is your ability. Even if I am a stopped organism, as long I exist like this there is a thread that permits my existence. If that is cut I would definitely die. The unique exception is this left arm, but even that can't be hidden forever. No matter which saint's bone it is as long as it functions there will always be a cause for that movement." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

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The god killer part is just referencing her catchphrase, lmao.

Probably the funniest part of an already ridiculous post. Are you really distorting the context of a straightforward statement? Ryougi's catchphrase is about her being able to kill even God, and she said this right before fighting Archetype Earth. The guidebook confirms that she won by referencing that phrase, but this time altered to signify that Shiki actually killed a God in the form of Archetype Earth.

Ryougi is just putting on a brave face.

Nope, we already know that she outright stops in her tracks if she cannot see Death on her opponent rather than rushing in like an idiot:

Shiki didn't respond to his trivial and hugely vulnerable advance. Although she knows that the man in front of her is an 'enemy', and that he wishes to kill both her and Enjou, she can't make herself rush in as usual.--- This bastard, I can't see him... ! Hiding her inner surprise, Shiki coldly looked the man over. The death she could see on people if she merely wished to, this man doesn't have any. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

So this isn't arrogant boasting on her part, and AE herself said that Ryougi came to bestow Death on which that cannot die (Herself). This lines up with Void's statement in the Epilogue that DP can kill everything with no exceptions. And the narrative of Melty Blood further backs this up. Void urged Ryougi to take out Archetype Earth, as she is normally suppressed by Ryougi's force of will the vast majority of the time, meaning that she couldn't have took over and vanquished AE by herself with a thought. And Void would have not bothered to urge Shiki if she wasn't capable of winning against AE, with the story itself hyping up their battle as being one with an unclear outcome. Void is omniscient, she knows everything that is going on down to the last atom.


Her omniscience is the reason for her boredom. So why send Normal Ryoug if she couldn't take out AE for their sake? Why did the very narrative hype the fight as being close by blacking out with a cliffhanger? Why did Archetype acknowledge that Ryougi can bring Death to her and taunted her in trying it by first defeating her in a fight?You have the game itself, Void, Ryougi, Archetype herself and the guidebook all saying that Ryougi can and has killed AE. You saying "no it's not true" is not an argument.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I answered yes to this.

Great! Then the follow-up questions apply.

The first issue is regarding the Mooncell's recording capabilities.

1a.​

The Mooncell's capabilities struggle with recording souls among other metaphysical aspects. It would be absurd for it to be able to record and copy the Swirl of the Root, considering that is where souls and all metaphysical concepts originate from and return to.

How do you reconcile this?
I hope this is not through a request to ignore contradictions.

1b.​

Considering the Mooncell specifically records what is on Earth, how does your hypothesis explain the Mooncell supposedly recording the Swirl of the Root?

Originally Moon Cell was just an observation device made by an otherworldly civilization. Moon Cell only contained equipment to observe and record life on Earth, but after many, many years it came to have its current functionality. Its mission was to observe, but when trying to observe there can be no “blind spots.” (Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle. The observer determines an event by observing it. What isn’t observed is not certain.) An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth. To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device. And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution. It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveilling, even gaining control over the administration of the planet.

The Mooncell was only able to analyze Velber after its arrival on Earth:

The true motive of the Umbral Star remains unclear, but during its previous attack on Earth, the Moon Cell did get a chance to analyze its structure.

Is your position that the Swirl of the Root doesn't actually exist outside of the world, and exists on Earth? Or is it a position we should full-heartedly embrace while turning a blind eye to its incoherence, because Nasu might've said some unrelated contradictory things?

---

2.​

You claim that BB's digitalization of 'nothingness' before life (something Tiamat's life-creating Imaginary Number Space mud is btw) has nothing to do with Imaginary Number Space.
However BB becoming a master of Imaginary Number Space is a direct result of the digitalizing of the 'nothingness'.

Further, it is not stated that the "nothingness" is INS. Those are two separate sentences and nothing connects the two.

Having obtained the power of the original goddess, BB successfully digitized the “nothingness” before life was born. This made her a master of imaginary number space, where time and space are both uncertain.

Imaginary Number Space has been called 'nothingness' multiple times.

Reinol Gusion is a magician with a rare imaginary attribute. To put it simply and roughly, he is a diver who can plunge his hand into a dimensional gap. The imaginary space, which is said to have nothing, is like a dimensional pocket, and those who fall inside become things that are not bound by space or time. He used that property as a time capsule.

Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time. The only thing that could interact with this dimensional pocket was the original spell. Primarily that meant only someone with the same affinity for Imaginary Numbers could access it, but in certain cases there were other methods. Or so she had heard from Trisha.

Gilgamesh :: I but it seems I slept a bit too long. In any case, in these thousand years, no, a time approaching eternity, my body was left to lie in nothingness. My soul was unaffected, but my abilities were unfortunately tarnished. That is why I have been weakened.

…That’s unexpected. Giving no comment on my decision, Gilgamesh quietly departs. As if to return to the depths of nothingness where we met.

Unlike the Swirl of the Root, Imaginary Number Space was not called an absence of darkness (and light) or the absence of nothingness (and existence).

If there is nothing connecting the 'nothingness' and Imaginary Number Space (despite the evidence above), how does digitalizing the nothingness make one a master of Imaginary Number Space specifically?

I'm not saying that. The text seems to imply the divine authority (not the ability itself) derived from the goddess 8,000 years ago, not that the literal power of creation itself didnt exist 8,000 years ago. There's a considerable distinction there.

You might not be aware, but divine authorities ARE abilities.

Authority [miracle] Kennou. Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms. An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building. Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past. A normal skill “is able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle,” but an Authority works “simply by making things happen because one has that right.” A divine spirit Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (self-destruction). In CCC the one who swallowed up Moon Cell has reached a level of power that is Authority class.

So we have a being (goddess) who can't actually chronologically pre-exist humans.
And her creation powers originated just 8000 years ago.

Doesn't sound like the Swirl of the Root at all.

A) Using this goddess' power gives her an ability identical to Shiki

Not identical, as the feat by BB would be done thanks to Imaginary Number Space. Let's look at a description of what the ability does:

This anti-world Noble Phantasm outputs that information through an ultra-precise 3D printer and crushes the present world with the world the user desires. The space eroded by BB becomes imaginary space and a curse that consumes reality. "CCC", as the name suggests, is a cursed pit that bores out reality. In addition to scattering all objects inside on an atomic level and reconstructing them, it is capable of overwriting and reprinting information in fields such as luck and coincidence. While theoretical, it is also thought possible to distort the time axis by interfering with gravitational fields and rewrite the law of cause and effect.

So we can observe:

1- Information is outputted to overwrite the world​

We know the source of that information is Imaginary Number Space from description of a variation of the Noble Phantasm:

Drawing the Mooncell’s power, she changes into the shape of an invincible nurse. Immediately after, she draws malignant information from her territory - the imaginary space - and overwrites the surrounding channel (common awareness) into something chaotic.

2- An expanding pit that transforms space into Imaginary Number Space is created​

The expanding shadows consuming the world are stated to be Imaginary Number Space:

Imaginary Spiritron Trap [concept/noble phantasm] Ryoushi Kyokou Kansei. This is BB’s imaginary number space which is depicted as black noise and black tentacles in game. Anyone who comes into contact will be unable to do anything as BB takes ownership of their data.

Which is a call back to the original Sakura Matou's shadows being Imaginary Number Space:

3- The target is scattering inside, and modified within​

We know the target of BB's Noble Phantasm is sent inside Imaginary Number Space and therefore modified there:

Mash Ah! So, the reason we couldn't contact Chaldea's Hawaiian office isn't because this place became a Singularity, but— ??? Right you are! It's because the entire office disappeared into Void Space, like it never existed to begin with!

BB It didn't take long for Chaldea's Hawaiian office to catch on, so I went and tossed them all into my shadow♪ And I tossed the other observatories in for good measure♪ So now, there's nothing left up here! I plunged it all into the shadow of the void. Destroying the evidence, as they say☆

BB Scream and cry all you like; you can't turn back now. You are about to get veeery intimate with the unending darkness of Void Space!

Cursed・Cutting・Crater. The hole of curses boring into the world, utilized by BB who has synchronized with the Moon Cell in "Fate/Extra CCC". A space of insanity that transforms the surroundings into the space of imaginary numbers by enlarging its own shadow, lowering the rank of the world and the lifeforms existing in it to those of low-dimensional beings, and then treating them as toys as if it was their ruler.

4- The law of cause and effect can be overwritten​

This is referenced in regards to Imaginary Number Space:

Jeanne Alter All right, so I can kind of understand same-day printing before the con opens, but how can you offer to print after the con's already begun? Moolah It's simple. We send our printer into Void Space, invert cause and effect... ...and finish the printing the moment you finish your final draft. That way, once you're ready to send it to the printer, you don't even have to! It's our new landmark printing service♪

---

The mechanisms of the feat are completely different consider the Swirl of the Root ≠ Imaginary Number Space.
So yes, it would be a coincidence, and not a more notable or significant one than both 「Shiki Ryougi」 and BB being able to heal people.

B) That this is called Potnia Theron and Manaka is called Potnia Theron by Caster who considers her "Queen of the Root." That's not reasonable, in my opinion. Even if you believe the statement represents a contradiction, that does not overwrite what it plainly says.

She is called the Mistress of Beasts by multiple people, including Misaya's father, Assassin, Rider, Lancer, and Norma. This is in line her theme of an evil goddess trying to birth a monster of destruction (Beast 666). She also has other titles, such as Princess of Beasts, and Princess of the World.
Having a bunch of titles doesn't represent a contradiction or an issue.

Then she would either be an exception or this would be an anti-feat. Again, this doesn't override the scan. Even if your argument is taken at face value the conclusion would simply be "Nasu wrote something contradictory again."

I am not going to assume she is an exception. If you want to argue such, you need to present evidence explicitly saying she is an exception to the definiton of goddess, not ad-hoc speculations for your position. Your proposal contradicts the very term of 'goddess' as defined within Nasuverse.
It would be an anti-feat for said goddess, not for the Swirl of the Root, as we know for sure that the Swirl of the Root pre-exists humans and is not dependent on their worship.

No, it's about the title Potnia Theron, not the Ten Crowns. You're the one that brought up crowns.

You did say:

(the Ten Crowns ability that comes from the primordial goddess is also called Potnia Theron)

If this is true, then we aren't describing the Swirl of the Root. Not being bound by duality is a central theme behind the Swirl of the Root. The Ten Crowns are owned by and based on Beast of 666, who is called "King of the world", and it is a power/authority based on a specific logos/principle bound by duality.

That's not really logical. Void Shiki has powers that -- in their earthly applications -- are also bound by duality.

A limited selection of effects and applications of a power don't encompass what the power is. If the power is the same as that of Beast VI, then this is yet an other disqualifer for it being the power of the Swirl of the Root.

 

[Deagonx]

The Mooncell's capabilities struggle with recording souls among other metaphysical aspects. It would be absurd for it to be able to record and copy the Swirl of the Root, considering that is where souls and all metaphysical concepts originate from and return to.

How do you reconcile this?

Leo's simply mistaken here, hence "my guess." It's stated directly that the Moon Cell can record souls.

The Moon Cell is, in a manner of speaking, an eye that observes the Earth.
A processor that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future.
A database of humanity. A massive memory recording their habits, history, ideas, even their souls.

If there is nothing connecting the 'nothingness' and Imaginary Number Space (despite the evidence above), how does digitalizing the nothingness make one a master of Imaginary Number Space specifically?

I don't see the point in theorizing when the source material simply doesn't explain. It doesn't even directly say that's what caused her to be a master of INS.

You might not be aware, but divine authorities ARE abilities.

I wasn't saying it wasn't, I am saying that the instantiation of it as a divine authority possessed by the Earth Mother Goddesses that Catalhoyuk created being 8000 years old doesn't mean that the capability itself is only 8000 years old. We know it's far older than that, even if we didn't consider it the Root.

The mechanisms of the feat are completely different consider the Swirl of the Root ≠ Imaginary Number Space.
So yes, it would be a coincidence, and not a more notable or significant one than both 「Shiki Ryougi」 and BB being able to heal people.

You didn't present anything that distinguishes this from Shiki.

She is called the Mistress of Beasts by multiple people, including Misaya's father, Assassin, Rider, Lancer, and Norma. This is in line her theme of an evil goddess trying to birth a monster of destruction (Beast 666). She also has other titles, such as Princess of Beasts, and Princess of the World.
Having a bunch of titles doesn't represent a contradiction or an issue.

This doesn't address my argument. She's called "Potnia Theron" by Caster who considers her "Queen of the Root." The terms are even referenced together. One of the authorities that derived from Catalhoyuk, called the Root, is also called "Potnia Theron." There's a clear connection there. Mentioning that she had other titles doesn't do anything to undermine that at all.

If this is true, then we aren't describing the Swirl of the Root. Not being bound by duality is a central theme behind the Swirl of the Root. The Ten Crowns are owned by and based on Beast of 666, who is called "King of the world", and it is a power/authority based on a specific logos/principle bound by duality.

A limited selection of effects and applications of a power don't encompass what the power is. If the power is the same as that of Beast VI, then this is yet an other disqualifer for it being the power of the Swirl of the Root.

No, it isn't. As I said, Shiki's powers are also based in duality when she uses them in the real world. Ten Crowns is just a specific ability that is derived from the primordial goddess' authority, so it too falls under the "limited selection of effects and applications" of Catalhoyuk's power, not an encompassment of all her power on a fundamental level. You're creating a double standard here.

 

[Reiner04]

I got permission from @Firestorm808 to make a post here. My one friend who wishes to keep his identity anonymous wanted to share his thoughts and arguments over few points. Which are as following:

His argument is the following:

Arcueid and ORT both have feats of directly affecting the root, which goes against the immutability requirements.

In between Manifestations of the TATARI, Zepia is a part of the root, which Arcueid could control him and bring him back to existence with MP.

Scan 1

Scan 2

Scan 3

Scan 4

Scan 5
Void does not have a perfect understanding of everything. She said she could kill god, WOG is that she cannot, since "God" is neither alive or dead.
Article:
Nasu: "As long as it's alive", however. The thing is, God is not alive or dead so Shiki can't do anything to him. However, Shiki can kill what she thinks to be "alive", for example, say a telephone that she perceives as "being alive because it's not broken". On the other hand, if it's broken and therefore feels it's "already dead", she won't see lines.

Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not "Know" she is the Spiral, she guessed.
Article:
いえ――わたし自身が、その渦なのかもし れないわ

Article:
〜かもしれない FOR "MAY" OR "MIGHT"

〜かもしれない is the Japanese equivalent of "may" or "might." It communicates the implication that something may be true, but you're not completely sure. In other words, it refers to your guess when there is no concrete proof to support it.

Let's use the same scenario of you sneezing. Instead of "you wonder," you think you might have a cold. In this case, you can use 〜かもしれない and say: 風邪かもしれない

Here’s a source from a language learning site to prove I’m not bullshitting.
Source: https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/expressing-uncertainty-in-japanese

This paragraph from void also means nothing,scaling wise.

The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. That is my true shape. Though I am merely bound to it, I am nonetheless a part of it. And the part and the whole of a nothingness are the same, wouldn't you say?
It’s meant in a philosophical sense, and not literally meaning she’s the entirety of the root. That’s like saying Arcueid and ORT can affect its entirety, or that each servant in the throne can do so. It’s useless scaling wise.

Void's existence is fundamentally uncertain thanks to FGO:

“Since her way of being itself is uncertain, even while knowing the full story behind many bizarre incidents she does not get involved with them.”

It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence.

Voids entire scaling revolves around a low probability “what-if” that gets proven negative like later lore. Also, unlike popular opinion, the void in the KNK event that admits inferiority to PM isn’t in a servant container, but it’s the original ryougi in one of her dreams.

(Nasu Interview, 2016)
But Shiki is special – she's dead, but not quite. Her body had burned, but it's yet to completely burn up. She's there, just right before dying, asleep. The Ogawa Apartments that we see is the dream that Shiki is seeing. During the event, Shiki would say things like, "This is an awful nightmare," or "I can't wake up, so come with me," and if she does wake up, she, like everyone else, would die out along with the time period she's in. But if she doesn't wake up, she'll avoid the destruction of humanity as long as she's in that dream, and she'll be able to return to her original world.

There are no differences between the swirl of the root, akasha or “ “, they’re just different “parts” of the same structure.
A mage's ultimate goal, you see, is to reach the 'maelstrom of origins'. It's also called the Akashic Record, but it may be better to just regard the edge of the maelstrom as having such properties attached to it.


If I were to assign a reading to it, it would be "kara." How it's interpreted varies from person to person. *To put it simply and clearly, it means ”Spiral of origin." * However, since "Spiral of origin" already has its own name, *it is indeed different from " ". * This was the source of my dilemma when figuring out how to turn this into a line for the drama CD.

The author defines it here. He says they’re technically different terms but they have the same definition. The definition is the same “maelstrom”, different cultures just have different names for it. It’s more semantics than anything. Nasu doesn’t say the definition is incorrect. Synonyms are technically different concepts from the original word, but they are still the same.
At best, these 3 terms can be analogous to the trinity in the sense that all 3 are still the same “oneness”, or referring to it. They aren’t ontologically different.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay, I think it's clear that we need to organize this discussion. We keep jumping around from source to source, and it's getting exhausting.

I propose that we go through the sources one by one chronologically. The staff will determine whether or not the one source in isolation supports or contradicts Tier 0. From there, we will compare the number of supporting vs contradicting sources overall.

For example, let's start by clearing away the 1998/2004 | Kara no Kyoukai Novel, which is basically where it all started.

On its own, does this source support a Tier 0 rating?

I will log our final staff determination, and we will move to the next source Tsukihime, and so forth.

 

[Agnaa]

idk if going source-by-source is a good way to go about it, I think argument topics are more important, since it's kinda weird to split those up by source, since each time you'd only get part of the argument.

 

[Deagonx]

I can make a summary post going over what I believe are the most important sources concerning specific elements of Tier 0 addressed in the standards.

 

[Firestorm808]

idk if going source-by-source is a good way to go about it, I think argument topics are more important, since it's kinda weird to split those up by source, since each time you'd only get part of the argument.

As you can see from the earlier discussions in this thread, there is already trouble keeping track of the discussion across several different sources at once. It just keeps going in a circle with more scans being thrown in at a time.

Frankly, there are about 7 or so relevant source entries for us to discuss about. It would be more efficient for the staff to make agreements piecemeal than in bulk.

If staff can't agree on the usability of a single source, can we really expect a bulk topic discussion based on multiple sources to go smoothly?

 

[Agnaa]

I didn't realise the fundamental canonicity of certain sources was in question. If so, then that's a fair enough place to start ig.

It just seems like a bad idea of it's simply being the evidence split across; if one entry has two scans that need to be combined with two scans from another entry to form a coherent argument, they can't be evaluated alone.

 

[HyperZero95]

I got permission from @Firestorm808 to make a post here. My one friend who wishes to keep his identity anonymous wanted to share his thoughts and arguments over few points. Which are as following:

His argument is the following:

I'm not particularly interested in whatever the Root is accepted as Tier 0 in truth, but I can certainly clear up misunderstandings regarding KnK.

Void does not have a perfect understanding of everything. She said she could kill god, WOG is that she cannot, since "God" is neither alive or dead.

Nasu also said that Shiki can only kill things that physically decays, which is explicitly contradicted by the novel. He also claimed Aoko in KnK is an apprentice that didn't learn the 5th Magic, which is also basic lore proven wrong by every source. Do not cite a dude who constantly contradict himself, is a compulsive liar and was heavily regulated by his team in writing these stories. Even the Fate/Zero writing team made fun of his incoherent claims.

Regardless, this isn't a big deal. Shiki said that if a God is alive, she can kill it. A truly omnipotent god (Or source in the Root's case) wouldn't be able to be killed though. And it's noted in KnK itself:

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05

So she is definitely aware of it. But notice it's more because a god would have no limits and be a perfect existence. As MEoDP relies on the fact that all things stems from the Spiral of Origin and has flaws that traces back to it. The Root has no flaws of that kind because it doesn't rely on anything else to exist. It's a self-sustaining omnipotent singularity. Not idea if that's what Nasu meant with "it's neither dead nor alive", but it's whatever.

It’s meant in a philosophical sense, and not literally meaning she’s the entirety of the root. That’s like saying Arcueid and ORT can affect its entirety, or that each servant in the throne can do so. It’s useless scaling wise.

By that logic, everyone may be the Root as everyone is connected to it. Including the Mikiya she is talking to. It's the source of all existence, and everyone having a connection is the reason abilities like MEoDP are so powerful. But there are various degrees of a connection to Akasha. And Void's connection is the highest it can possibly be due to her Origin itself being shaped after the Root. This is why she said she "may" be the Spiral. This is made evident by this paragraph:

—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root."

—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

While normal Ryougi can see a glimpse while using MEoDP, Void can go much further than that, to the point she could be considered the Swirl itself. The reason she is uncertain is because Void is still only an Avatar of the Root, rather than the Root itself. She is still bound to it, but her essence is shaped after it, expressing its hypotetical will if it was sentient. So while she is still contingent on the Root, she is so close to it in terms of connection that she could be considered the same. As she draws the maximum power possible from it without being outright omnipotent. It's not "useless for scaling", it's actually the opposite. In fact, here is Void explaining what she can do with that connection:

—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

—The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. That is my true shape. Though I am merely bound to it, I am nonetheless a part of it. And the part and the whole of a nothingness are the same, wouldn't you say?
—So I can do - whatever. Recompose the laws of nature, revert living beings to their evolutionary forebears. To overturn the system of the world, there's simply nothing to it. It's not a remaking. I simply crush the old one with the new world in its place. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

And we know "world" in this context refers to all creation, given the context of the rest of her conversation with Mikiya, such as this:

If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation.
—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

And if you don't trust Void, there is Araya wanting to use the Root to turn everything to Nothingness and record all history, something that he planned to do by taking over her body and her powers:

"───So that's why you crave the Root. It has all the records. Even if it doesn't, it can reduce everything to nothing. You want to erase all these filthy humans for your own sake," she said. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

In fact:

In that case, why are there those who reached the origin? The answer is simple. There is no way of reaching it. There are just humans who have reached it. No matter what branch you study, magecraft is nothing but a descendant that was attached later on. Ability is like that. You have it from the moment that you are born. It is the difference between being chosen and not being chosen. A humans who is connected to the origin from the moment they are born. We are a dominant organism that has digressed too far from the first great element that was our origin by becoming complicated and diversified, but there are rarely people who are born from the origin. Colourless souls who are born connected to 「　　」. That is probably the only existence that can reach the original source. In that case all that remains is to find it. In finding it, I spent ten years of my life." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Ryougi Shiki. The Ryougi clan was a family who had toiled over the ages to give birth to one with an empty body who could act as a vessel, all in order to create a human with maximum uses. To be empty was 「　　」. Without realising what a dangerous thing they were doing, they had given birth to a body called Shiki who was connected to 「　　」. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5,

"There was no great reason. I just became tired of creating more paradoxes every time I tried for the fundamental truth. The more we studied, the further away we got. It's the same as the Maelstrom of Origins. You can't approach it without the innocence we call emptiness, but in an empty state you aren't aware of it, so there's no point," - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

The narrative falls apart entirely if Void wasn't extensively connected to Akasha.

Void's existence is fundamentally uncertain thanks to FGO:

Sure, Void is also a waifu that blushes and admires humans thanks to FGO. The original non-retconned Void is a far different character.

Also, unlike popular opinion, the void in the KNK event that admits inferiority to PM isn’t in a servant container, but it’s the original ryougi in one of her dreams.

No, she is indeed in a Servant container, as her agility and her Mystic Eyes are ranked below her weaker personality, which makes no logical sense. The statement you cited simply says that this is supposedly the same Shiki from KnK that is dreaming this event. It doesn't contradict her in the dream being in a Servant container. Not to mention, again, Nasu is a completely and notoriously unreliable source.

Normal Ryougi Shiki canonically killed Archetype Earth in MBAA, and Arcueid herself conceded inferiority to MEoDP alone against Maiko Yamase, and Tohno's MEoDP at the time was limited to perceiving the Death of concrete existences, making it objectively inferior to Ryougi's which can kill abstract concepts that acts as the foundation of the material reality. Even Aoko Aozaki using the Fifth overcame the attempts of Gaia, Alaya and the greater universe at suppressing her power. So the idea of Primate Murder doing anything to Void is silly and contradicted by the entirety of the lore.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'll be honest, this thread is completely cooked.

We are nearing 10 pages in, and still can't seem to decide whether to go over the evidence from the start or keep debating about it. The current debate isn't even about the scans initially presented in the OP (Which, itself, is extremely disorganized), and in fact, we seem to have two conversations going on in parallel here, even. Not to mention the banned users interceding from beyond the grave.

I say we wipe the slate clean and make another thread gathering up all the points for and against the proposal. Much more sensible course of action than sustaining this mess.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll be honest, this thread is completely cooked.

We are nearing 10 pages in, and still can't seem to decide whether to go over the evidence from the start or keep debating about it. The current debate isn't even about the scans initially presented in the OP (Which, itself, is extremely disorganized), and in fact, we seem to have two conversations going on in parallel here, even. Not to mention the banned users interceding from beyond the grave.

I say we wipe the slate clean and make another thread gathering up all the points for and against the proposal. Much more sensible course of action than sustaining this mess.

I don't mind setting up the new organized thread with the appropriate sourced raw scans and archives.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I can do it myself, since I'm free today. Gathering up all the scans used here should be easy enough.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I can do it myself, since I'm free today. Gathering up all the scans used here should be easy enough.

I am writing the aforementioned thread, by the by.

When I post it here, this one will be just closed, so, no use bumping this.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Tier 0 Swirl of the Root Retake

So, this happened. It was an utter mess. We decided to wipe the slate clean. The topic is obvious: Is the Swirl of the Root a Tier 0? The following is a list of points for and against the proposal. Points For The Root Is Apophatic Probably by far the most self-explanatory pieces of information...

vsbattles.com

Hop in.