Are Tier 2 Smash Characters consistent?

[Amexim]

But how is that an issue? Like at all. Goku is 2-B in xenoverse. That's... I assume, a fact. Everyone in Smash is low 2-C. How is having multiple profiles of the same character with EXPLICIT clarification IN THE PROFILE NAME that they are non-canon and from a crossover an issue of any kind....? Anyone who thinks it's Canon can't read.

Hell, honestly, I agree with Cal for the "massive differences" justification, or better yet, just clarify that everyone is 2-C or whatever on the pages for crossover games or something. It doesn't seem that bad, no one has to do it now or at all.

 

[Amexim]

No staff at least.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frankly, except for Kirby, all the characters who have smash statistics easily fall under the alternative canon rules. I just don't want any others in it.

@Ryu. Playing Devils Advocate, because I agree with you, but because of the SSE, the DBX comparison is a false equivalency. SSE literally starts off with Peach and Zelda supervising a fight between Kirby and Mario before s*** hits the fan. Goku still starts with the same Saiyan Saga. Granted, again, I don't want like, a Low 2-C Link profile or anything.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Except as shown with Heroes (Need I show the Heroes Goku?) Goku clearly has done many different things over the course of the series. At this point you are cherrypicking Cal. It's not really a false equivalency as you say it is. Where one starts in a story means nothing. Hell, going by said example, Pit literally starts from his Kid Icarus world. (Skyworld)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@JSW. Captain Falcon, Game and Watch, Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, and Wii Fit Trainer would be fine, because other than the first two (with the former's signature move came from Smash, btw), they have literally nothing notable from another media. Anyone else would be a no-go.

 

[Ryukama]

Frankly, except for Kirby, all the characters who have smash statistics easily fall under the alternative canon rules. I just don't want any others in it.

Of course Kirby is the only one that doesn't fall under it :^)

@Ryu. Playing Devils Advocate, because I agree with you, but because of the SSE, the DBX comparison is a false equivalency. SSE literally starts off with Peach and Zelda supervising a fight between Kirby and Mario before s*** hits the fan. Goku still starts with the same Saiyan Saga. Granted, again, I don't want like, a Low 2-C Link profile or anything.

In all seriousness anyways how does that at all change the point? Another fallacy should be taking irrelevant differences between two things in an analogy and claiming that it changes anything.

The point is that people were so adamantly against the idea of Xenoverse Goku because it was nothing but a Goku copycat with higher Tier 2 stats which might lead to a spam of irrelevant noncanon profiles. Yet these Smash pages which are nothing but copycats with higher Tier 2 stats that are going getting spammed got accepted.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But how is that an issue? Like at all. Goku is 2-B in xenoverse. That's... I assume, a fact. Everyone in Smash is low 2-C. How is having multiple profiles of the same character with EXPLICIT clarification IN THE PROFILE NAME that they are non-canon and from a crossover....?

Because it's pointless.

It's not a drastically different version of a character from an alternate timeline.

Nor a version of the character with new powers or forms.

It's a non-canon version of a character we already have, with the same abilities, but made for the sole purpose of scaling to something higher than they do in their own canon.

We don't need those pages, the same way we don't need numerous extra pages all of Cthulhu simply from different continuities/versions of the Mythos where he scales to something different. And even those would be more different than just taking an existing character, slapping a Low 2-C tier on them, and calling it a "Smash profile".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I could explain, but I don't care enough, as I don't want Low 2-C versions of those characters. Just keep the ones who have them, because those are the ones and nix Kirby if you feel like it.

Funny enough though, outside of the ones mentioned above, the Kirby characters would fall under the alternative canon rules, as Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede arguably influence the SSE the most.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I don't know if this is relevant to what we're discussing, but SSB Kirby isn't really just Kirby with higher stats, since he has significantly less hax than the canon one.

 

[Megamangohan]

I don't know if this is relevant to what we're discussing, but SSB Kirby isn't really just Kirby with higher stats, since he has significantly less hax than the canon one.

almost all of the characters have less hax than their canon counterparts, so agree

 

[Ryukama]

I'm neutral to the current haxless Tier 7 Kirby profile. However I just want consistency. Either allow these Tier 2 copycat pages as well as Xenoverse Goku and all those other examples Dragon named. Or don't allow any of it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Kirby's Smash profile treats it like playable Kirby exists in some sort of void as opposed to just being Kirby (an already established character with his own abilities). I genuinely have no idea why it exists.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just saying that other than Kirby, all the characters we have Smash profiles for now, we know and are relevant today because of Smash.

Shut up, Pit, Marth, and Roy ovo

 

[Amexim]

Why are we complaining about them being copycat profiles if their creation is simple, their designation as to why those ratings exist is clear (so what is true for Canon is plain for all to see), and it catalogues information about fictional verses (which is what this place exists as first and foremost)? I'm not saying we just add thousands of things like Kirby eats people. I'm saying that there's no reason to say no to information, even if it's superfluous. Honestly, if it's just a copy paste job, the only people who should be complaining are those who need to make the possible disambiguation pages. Which is as simple as making a link.

But to compromise, we can just make a verse page for crossover things that have "everyone's X tier" scaling, like J-stars or Smash and clarify where everyone's tiering is. Just editing the verse page. That's it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Does not mean they should have Smash stats.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There was a big thing a while back about "quality over quantity". This is like the exact opposite of that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dude, other than the Captain and G&W, they're literally just humans and a dog, all with no powers. G&W wasn't even a real character until Smash.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

So, as long as the noncanon version of a character has abilities that differ from the original, a profile is okay to make?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dude, other than the Captain and G&W, they're literally just humans and a dog, all with no powers. G&W wasn't even a real character until Smash.

And that sounds like a Game & Watch problem.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There was a big thing a while back about "quality over quantity". This is like the exact opposite of that.

Again, I agree with you about 95% of the Smash characters. But someone like Wii Fit Trainer is pretty much a useless profile without Smash stats. It's a 10-A human. That's it.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Dante (Shin Megami Tensei).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, as long as the noncanon version of a character has abilities that differ from the original, a profile is okay to make?

That's a factor. It depends.

 

[Amexim]

Is there, like, a memory limit to this wiki? Why are we refusing to add information because it's "pointless"? It's information. Which is what this wiki gathers. And it takes little to no effort to make. Is there any other real argument beyond "it says the same thing with different tiering?". Because that's not a reason as to why it can't be on the page. And Ryu is right. You guys should be consistent, and add XenoGoku AND Smash profiles. Should we get rid of Dante as well? If anything, he has LESS abilities because the page refuses to assume that he had any weapons from his canon incarnation. Which isn't even worth pointing out as a difference.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Would the Mii Fighter stay ?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dante (Shin Megami Tensei).

That Dante is canon to the Shin Megami Tensei storyline. He is far different from his normal counterpart. Last I checked, DMC Dante doesn't have Almighty attacks. Just like how Lili from Tekken is a canonical part of Digimon Reigitize.

There's a difference between this and Smash Bros.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Honestly, I just brought up SSB Kirby being haxless because I think some people were saying that it was just the same thing with higher stats, but it isn't. I'm not sure if this changes anything tho.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Is there, like, a memory limit to this wiki? Why are we refusing to add information because it's "pointless"? It's information. Which is what this wiki gathers. And it takes little to no effort to make.

We do not add just anything for the sake of simply adding it. If I made 15 Cthulhu profiles, I wouldn't say "It's OK bro, they were easy to make and it's information added". It's not needed, takes up space, and often causes more scaling issues than it's worth.

A big reason that simply "Goku but from Xenoverse" and "Low 2-C Wesker" were frowned upon was because it could open the floodgates to creating profiles for just anything. It doesn't matter how weird the scaling is or how non-canon something is to its original series. People could just say "Well why can't we have this, too?".

Which is exactly what's happening, right now.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

.. Will the Mii Fighters be deleted ?

 

[Amexim]

No. That's not a difference. And, Actually, if we're going by the newer versions of the game, Dante himself isn't even Canon anymore. A Kuzunoha replaced him, didn't they?

Onto the "difference", both characters are crossed over from another verse with the same and/or possibly LESS powers than their original counterparts do to a lack of showings of those abilities, the differences are mostly just tiering between the two (Dante from DMC2 and the SMT Dante here are basically the same with less powers and a higher Tier.). Xenoverse Goku...? Like... Come on...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, I agree with Azzy completely, but other than Kirby, the ones that have profiles are fine, because they have literally nothing (except for CF and G&W) without Smash. Without Smash, ROB is literally just a f*cking toy ovo.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

.. Will the Mii Fighters be deleted ?

I don't know, but they sure as hell need better justification than "can fight the final boss of the game", which is something we never use for fighting games unless explicitly canon.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So, we just delete Kirby and that's it?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

...what? Pretty sure that's literally always the case unless it's some serious outlier like Cloud of Darkness or Neo Exdeath.

 

[Therefir]

Why we don't have a manga Goku?, he have different transformations, slightly different history, different ap, and hakai.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you want to leave characters who are drastically different (basically different characters entirely) in Smash, that's fine, but they should scale to their own shit and not arbitrarily be ranked as high as the strongest things in the setting.

 

[Amexim]

So, is it a story issue? Does it need plot? Because, Mii fighters is the only character exclusive to smash that isn't the final boss that we have, right? So, while that doesn't mean Mii did it, it doesn't really seem like there's anyone else who would canonically scale besides Sonic, who has CUTSCENES showing the fight against Tabuu. And that makes Mii unknown, but as strong as Kirby, who COULD have aided Sonic in the fight because it was canonically him and (someone else) fighting Tabuu-- there's no Canon here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

there's no Canon here.

And that's a problem.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>People bringing up SMT Dante.

SMT Dante is literally an unskippable part of the SMT Nocturne storyline. He is one of the Fiend demons, and is hired by Lucifer to take down the Demi-Fiend. You need to fight him to reach the True Demon ending, and Dante talks about joining you and Lucifer in the final war against YHVH.

And even if you don't go the True Demon ending he is still hinted at by an NPC in the very beginning of the game, and appears in an unskippable cutscene and has an unskippable early boss fight.

Dante is absolutely, completely, and totally canon.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Considering we've brought up SMT Dante's legitimacy, should anything be done about Heroes!Anna?

Although she is a different character entirely and should probably have her own page

 

[The_Everlasting]

...what? Pretty sure that's literally always the case unless it's some serious outlier like Cloud of Darkness or Neo Exdeath.

Key word was fighting games.