Are Tier 2 Smash Characters consistent?

[Amexim]

Azzy,

1. What scaling issues can a Non-canon profile do to Canon profiles? They... Don't scale...

2. Takes up WHAT space? Is there a limited amount of pages a wiki can hold? Technology has made it so we can have as many profiles as there are people, and as long as we can search with precision, we can find any 1.

3. So what? Each profile should be shut down on a case by case basis, not broad ideas. Dante the Non-canon SMT GAWD can be removed for not being Canon to anything anymore if we're not letting anything Non-canon exist. Why can't we? It's really weird to say no because it has bigger implications when there's no telling how many of those implications could be legitimate. Including Manga Goku, who is basically completely different in terms of power scaling and transformations.

4. That's a scaling issue we have to discuss in the verse anyway, but only after we decide whether or not Smash Bros Incarnations even count anymore, which they should.

 

[Jared1111]

I honestly wouldn't even care for 2-B Goku, give the DB fans something to salivate about on forums.

If it means that i can have Universe+ level Duck Hunt dog, i can live with it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Here we go....

 

[Amexim]

Dante's role has been removed in subsequent releases of Nocturne and replaced with Kuzunoha. He was retconned and isn't Canon anymore. Remove him, along with every other Non-canon profile with few differences if we refuse this. Not serious. But the logic follows.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ever. Difference with most fighting games (because I'm pretty sure he's talking about things like scaling Chun Li to M Bison) is that canonically, it's outright proven that the two characters never even fought each other. Even if you wanna throw out MH and CH and the CT, it's fully shown that everyone in Brawl (except for Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf), contributed to Tabuu's defeat.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

1. Scaling issues does not mean scaling a non-canon thing to its canon self. Something being non-canon does not stop it from having its own internal inconsistency and issues.

2. Read my previous comment. "We can flood the wiki with useless shit" is not a reason we SHOULD do so.

3. They are shut down on a case by case basis. Notice how I explicitly mentioned what makes for an acceptable non-canon profile, such as an entirely new, noteworthy character, or a drastically differing version of a character with a new form.

4. "Count" as what? Worthy of having profiles?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dante's role has been removed in subsequent releases of Nocturne and replaced with Kuzunoha. He was retconned and isn't Canon anymore. Remove him, along with every other Non-canon profile with few differences if we refuse this. Not serious. But the logic follows.

Except even with this example, SMT is literally an infinite multiverse with infinite possibilities. These new releases would simply being universes where Dante did not appear.

 

[Amexim]

So, people are saying we can't scale fighting game bosses to characters that are playable. But that's usually because plot conflicts with it. Here, there is no plot, and there's no reason to assume everyone doesn't scale to each other. While my defense of this position isn't set up very well at the moment, that's probably my own strawman of my greater argument for it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Azzy's no. 3 sums my standpoint up perfectly.

 

[Amexim]

1. So Dragon Ball, most Shonen, and other inconsistent verses can be removed then? Why is a verse being hard to scale an argument against NON-CANON stuff? Is everything that's Non-canon mess in scaling? No.

2. It's also not a reason why you shouldn't, unless you don't want to spend time doing your job and approving and disapproving profiles. The only thing that would change MIGHT be the frequency of "bullshit" that appears on your feed, but there are also many ways you can mitigate the problem; one of them being having Non-canon composite threads with Keys that are for different games with relevant power differences (like Bahamut, Leviathan, and other Reoccurring FF characters).

3. All of those words aren't clear at all because "drastically different" is a subjective opinion for what something is. I think 2-C Sonic is drastically different. I don't think SMT NON-CANON Dante is(as in retconned by the creators of the verse. Are we really gonna make Katakuri a Logia again even though Oda REWROTE the story? This isn't something you can claim death of the author on, this is the real Erasure of a canon fact from before, a RETCON).

4. Yup.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. In what universe did I imply that? You are also the one that explicitly said, in your own words, "there is no plot". That makes things far more of a problem than just "it's kind of hard to know how to scale these DBS characters".

2. I'm not quite sure what you think my job is, but it certainly isn't to encourage the creation of horrible profiles simply so I can delete them. We have rules about what should and shouldn't be made. Though I am doing part of my actual job right now in disapproving of adding more of these profiles.

3. I have zero idea why you're arguing this point to me when Matt was the one arguing for SMT Dante.

4. Then refer to what I defined as worthwhile, before. A new, unique character or a version of the character with extreme differences.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I wouldn't mind adding Future Goku from Dragon Ball Heroes, seeing as he's treated as a different character than the copycat DBH Goku, even fighting differently and using things like SSJ4. He's about as different as Super Goku is to GT Goku.

For the most part, I can agree with Azzy and Cal. If they are different enough in their showings for something that is non-canon, I don't mind it.

I don't know if it changes or solidifies anything, but if we're treating all trophies as just MH and CH's toys, but there are Low 2-C statements attached to Count Bleck through Paper Mario trophies, and Bleck has a trophy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The reason the CT were stated was because they can take hits from the CT, whether it's from Pokeballs or as stage hazards in Spear Pillar. Just being Low 2-C wouldn't matter. Granted, it does speak more for MH and CH and Tabuu.

 

[Amexim]

1. "No plot makes it hard to scale." I did say that. But you said that scaling issues are a problem and we are speaking about non-canon things as a whole, not just this. Me saying that there's no plot and it's hard to scale it might be an error on my part, I am not sure, but I do think that what little information we have makes the proposed scaling valid in some way. I meant like, Canon fights between X character and Y character, specifics. I said that was the implication because I interpreted that as a reason for Non-canon profiles as a whole.

2. And what exactly constitutes as a horrible profile. Is it bad structure (in terms of formatting), awful scaling, what? Why are these profiles bad specifically? And why are those reason you will list valid? Because I think I agree that some things need to be argued for case by case scenarios, even if it is policy. Otherwise everyone can, for example, dismiss any arguments by shouting a fallacy when that fallacy might not actually apply in context even when the structure of the argument is similar.

3&4. I was pointing out how that definition isn't a very clear definition, using Dante as an example and pointing out how he isn't Canon anymore at all.

 

[Amexim]

The toys thing is also debatable.

My point is that I need more of a reason than just "it's a hassle" and a vague allusion to future consequences that aren't entirely clear if they're all gonna be bad.

A composite profile of Goku doesn't seem bad if we have composite Link (nevermind the ability differences between anime and manga and shit, just an example). If not that, then a video game profile combining XenoGoku in different Keys like the FF characters isn't a bad example either. It seems like Azzy is against NON-Canon profiles on principal, which isn't very compelling against this specifically. I could be wrong, but I don't see any specifics against the entire idea. This is an indexing cite. Omitting available FACTS is contrary to its purpose, and arguing inconvenience or workload doesn't change that. There has to be inherent contradictions in the concept in and of itself in order to change my mind about all Non-canon profiles.

If this becomes a discussion rule, then there's going to be the problem of discussions getting shut down before exceptions to said rules could be argued for. Not saying we can Scale pokémon from the CT in Canon, but I don't think the discussion rules should hold when there could be new evidence that is brought to the table, and we don't know if there is any new evidence unless we hear the proposed idea and reasoning out first.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

the characters that have zero feats or don't even exist outside of smash can stay. Giving a Low 2-C key to everyone else is absurd and unnecessary, and I never supported it in any way.

The Kirby profile primarily exists so the characters who legit only have feats within smash bros can scale to it. It would be confusing to have the reasoning be "because kirby" when there is no kirby to scale to.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It seems like Azzy is against NON-Canon profiles on principal, which isn't very compelling against this specifically.

I gave you multiple examples of current, non-canon profiles as well as general non-canon profile archetypes which are generally acceptable (of course, it is all case by case).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Kirby profile primarily exists so the characters who legit only have feats within smash bros can scale to it. It would be confusing to have the reasoning be "because kirby" when there is no kirby to scale to.

Kirby's reasoning is essentially "because Master Hand". This is not good reasoning, and if he solely exists so people can scale to his feats, he should actually have feats.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

At this point this should just be closed. We're not getting anywhere at all here.

If there's still in-differences about the stats, then it should be remade again for staff to quickly (yes I mean quickly) get out the way.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I was referring to the profile back when he was 7-B. I made tons of explanations in the profile too.

I'm a little iffy on the feat of the smash characters beating master hand anyways.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I was referring to the profile back when he was 7-B. I made tons of explanations in the profile too.

Then this all seems like a giant waste of time. The extremely unique Smash characters (Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt dog, Captain Falcon, etc.) scaling to a 7-B feat Kirby actually has is far more legit and shouldn't have just been tossed aside to scale everyone to the strongest characters in the setting simply "because reasons".

 

[Amexim]

That's a factor. It depends.

This isn't helpful tho. Not even a bit.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This isn't helpful tho. Not even a bit.

You advocated for case by case (which I support), man. Don't expect a direct "yes" to a vague "is this sort of profile OK to make?" if there isn't full context behind it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then this all seems like a giant waste of time. The extremely unique Smash characters (Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt dog, Captain Falcon, etc.) scaling to a 7-B feat Kirby actually has is far more legit and shouldn't have just been tossed aside to scale everyone to the strongest characters in the setting simply "because reasons".

No offense, bro, but what's the difference between this and any game character fighting a final boss with feats without a cutscene or movie to support, like Tifa to Sephiroth or HiAndromon to Mother Eater?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No offense, bro, but what's the difference between this and any game character fighting a final boss with feats without a cutscene or movie to support, like Tifa to Sephiroth or HiAndromon to Mother Eater?

An actual plot and internal canon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

?

I may not be getting your point, but thousands of characters are rated as "Can hurt X." I don't see what canon has anything to do with this. If you wanna do canon, they wouldn't even scale to Smash!Kirby.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Does this mean every Smash Bros character will get their Tier 2 profile?

Low 2-C Mario vs Ultra Instinct Goku.

HYPE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHNdV1fdJQE

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We went over that they wouldn't.

 

[Marco_Shark]

So, there is no consistency between Low 2-C boses and Tier 7 fighters?


Didnt they survive the subspace collapsing on them?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

|M|ari|o| |w|in|s| |a|lread|y|, |t|houg|h|. ;-;

 

[Marco_Shark]

Yeah, but it would be hype.


I want Low 2-C smash characters.


Would additional pages be made for all Smash characters like Kirby or a new form "Super Smash Bros" be added to every page?

Universe Level Plus (Fought and defeated Tabuu alongside the other Fighters)

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

We just had a huge discussion about this, no more Smash profiles, just the ones who are completely different from their canon selves

 

[Marco_Shark]

So, are you guys just gonna ignore Brawl?

 

[Amexim]

There's the CT Scaling and Sonic and (someone) fighting Tabuu. There's the fact that, if we're going by this specific case, the game here makes it so that "someone" beasts MH, CH, and the Core. Even if it's not specified who did it, conflicts between MH & CH are as close to "Canon" as this verse can get. There's other trophy 2-C statements as well, like the Paper Mario villain one-- though I am not sure how relevant they are.

So there's actual things to support Scaling to 2-C outside of the Fights with MH and CH. But, again, the fights HAVE to happen. Not clear on who, but it makes it so that everyone is possibly low 2-C.

"Is 2-C Smash Sonic a good enough profile?" This is my question Azzy. And you will probably say know for some reason, to which I will scratch my head in confusion because it's "different" enough to be included. Being different isn't an actual quality we can objectively look for and agree on what's different or not.

And, please Kukui. Let's stop trying to close threads that have arguments in them. Nothing will get done if we don't push through them. Seriously, stop.

 

[Marco_Shark]

Yeah, Smash Bros Sonic should be Low 2-C by damaging Tabuu´s wings.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

So, there is no consistency between Low 2-C boses and Tier 7 fighters?

Didnt they survive the subspace collapsing on them?

We've already covered that none of the profiles accept for the "exclusively" smash ones will get anything done. Low 2-C for every single Smash character is pointless, takes up too much space especially since it would literally just be a carbon copy of the character made solely to scale them to Low 2-C stuff, and is inconsistent with decisions regarding upgrades we've made before.

 

[Amexim]

What is, "completely different"? That is the main issue. You can't quantify it, it's a subjective point, which means Azzy can just say know because, hypothetically speaking, Azzy makes the rules. The rule doesn't work then, because no one can determine what's a different or appropriate for a profile. Dante's not Canon anymore, and he's mostly only different by TIER. Is that enough to justify a Sonic Smash profile? No? Why not?

This is incredibly crucial to whether or not this discussion of if the 2-C Smash is consistent or not will be a relevant conversation.

 

[Marco_Shark]

I dunno man, but surviving the destruction of an altenative timeline on top of you is pretty different from what canon Mario/Fire Emblem/Zelda could do...

Just saying.

 

[Amexim]

AN, what space? Do we have a limited number of profiles and data we can have on this wiki?

Because that's weird if we do. And if we don't, space is irrelevant. And all that inconsistency means is one has to change. Either we delete all the other outlier pages in the decision making or we allow others to be made.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Azzy means ability wise