Arceus Low 1-C Hax Upgrade

[Arceus0x]

You spoke too soon by the looks of it

yeah, that's why i try to stay away from tier 2-1 in general. I came here to just support this but as always mods pile up and just say no and those who agree never respond again. It is always like this...i should just go back to editing pokemon profiles based on accepted revisions. I'll check in here if i am needed here though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I

Also like how OP just doesn't count disagreements because he doesn't like the reasons. Prime example of honest Pokémon debating.

First of all, don’t put words in my mouth.

I didn’t count the disagreement votes because the disagreement is literally based off nothing. Period. No actual argument put into it.

We don’t count a disagreement without, you know, an actual reason.

And on top of that, that disagreement was long countered and the person who gave it hasn’t made any effort to reaffirm their stance on it since then (and they’ve responded here more than once since making it, if they were serious about it, they would’ve done so).

So next time, don’t try and make this out to be some dishonest attempt. You know better than this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyway, counters.

I disagree with this. I see nothing here beyond simply Arceus having Tier 1 power.
Fighting in his dimension is irrelevant, as you can be in a dimension like that without being a higher tier and similarly bring people there. Like, obviously the beings you fight there aren't Tier 1 themselves.

The beings fighting in the dimension are not the point on why that was brought up, which is a support evidence and not the core argument.

The point is that the moves and abilities work inside the dimension. That includes moves that affect time and space like the Creation Trios signature moves and abilities.

Everything else is about power and energy, but power and energy are irrelevant for hax potency.

So you just completely ignored the point about the Legend Plate then? Where all of creation is an aspect of the plates as well?

But even disregarding that

This is basically just attempting to scale hax potency from power, which is something we don't do.

Since when was this something we haven’t done? Because I can very much say this has been something done here and there is no rule or standard that says we don’t do this either.

The fact of the matter is that Arceus’s plates, where all Pokémon abilities originate from in the first place, have a direct association with his power. Power that has been blatantly shown to effect his Low 1-C dimension and the entire cosmology, and we know there’s a direct correlation because of things like the Jewel of Life and the plates literally using Arceus’s power.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I

First of all, don’t put words in my mouth.

I didn’t count the disagreement votes because the disagreement is literally based off nothing. Period. No actual argument put into it.

We don’t count a disagreement without, you know, an actual reason.

And on top of that, that disagreement was long countered and the person who gave it hasn’t made any effort to reaffirm their stance on it (and they’ve responded more than once since then).

So next time, don’t try and make this out to be some dishonest attempt. You know better than this.

A reason was given, you just didn't accept the reason as valid.

So yes, I still consider this a dishonest attempt and if it continues I will punish you for it. So start counting the votes.
You make this look like this was unanimously agreed upon which it wasn't.

The beings fighting in the dimension are not the point on why that was brought up, which is a support evidence and not the core argument.

The point is that the moves and abilities work inside the dimension. That includes moves that affect time and space like the Creation Trios signature moves and abilities.

Said dimension is supposed to lack spacetime (being above the conceptual incarnation thereof), so I consider that a contradiction. Regardless, it wouldn't matter, as the ability to just a hax in some Tier 1 space proves and supports nothing, unless it actually affects a Tier 1 character.

So you just completely ignored the point about the Legend Plate then? Where all of creation is an aspect of the plates as well?

But even disregarding that

Which would be relevant for power and irrelevant for hax potency. Since nothing in Pokémon has TIer 1 hax potency in these things, the totality of all of existence's hax potency would still not be Tier 1.

Since when was this something we haven’t done? Because I can very much say this has been something done here and there is no rule or standard that says we don’t do this either.

The hax page explicitely states that hax potency is unrelated to AP & Tier i.e. the characters capability to produce energy. Likewise, we don't consider character to have hax potency increases when they have power increases (Note 1) and we had threads in the past about how characters getting tier 1 power doesn't upgrade their hax potency correspondingly.

So yes, we do in fact not do that at all. You're going against established standards.

The fact of the matter is that Arceus’s plates, where all Pokémon abilities originate from in the first place, have a direct association with his power. Power that has been blatantly shown to effect his Low 1-C dimension and the entire cosmology, and we know there’s a direct correlation because of things like the Jewel of Life and the plates literally using Arceus’s power.

Power increase isn't hax potency increase. A poison doesn't become stronger because you have more biggatons and neither does spatial cutting. The entire idea of hax is that it is independent of raw power.

By established standards taking a hax and blasting more power into it, doesn't increase its potency.

 

[Ego]

Im seriously tired of this "But nobody else in pokémon has 5D hax so Arceus being 5D can't have 5D hax" crap

How Dante or anyone got 8D hax when nobody is 8D in that verse?

 

[Faron25]

Said dimension is suppose to lack spacetime (being above the conceptual incarnation thereof), so I consider that a contradiction. Regardless, it wouldn't matter, as the ability to just a hax in some Tier 1 space proves and supports nothing, unless it actually affects a Tier 1 character.

If the problem is affecting another Tier 1 character, then there are the Giants. They were the original source of the Plates' power and of a similar level to True form Arceus. I commented about them before in this thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A reason was given, you just didn't accept the reason as valid.

Because it isn’t an actual reason, unless ignoring 95% of presented evidence is something you find acceptable on this site.

The only “reason” given for disagreement is that fighting inside a realm doesn’t prove anything, which I already said from the beginning that it isn’t the main argument or reasons I used. Stronger evidence than this was given on top of that, and guess what? They weren’t addressed at all.

Following that was also literally nothing but asking questions, to stuff that my thread already gave evidence for.

So no, these were not reasons. That response painfully ignored almost everything I brought forth, focused on on single point that I said from the start was only supporting details to my whole argument, and used that as a blanket method of just disagreeing with the whole thing without actually addressing everything else. So unless we find quick hand wavy counter responses that don’t address everything presented as acceptable responses, this is not a valid disagreement.

So no. And if you continue to accuse me of being dishonest, when I already counted your vote (so that accusation of me trying to make this an unanimous vote goes out the window), I will be reporting you to the Rule Violations Thread and Human Resources if necessary. You aren’t going to attack my character and make me appear to do something that I’m not doing.

Said dimension is suppose to lack spacetime (being above the conceptual incarnation thereof), so I consider that a contradiction.

Not when it’s Arceus himself allowing them to be inside the dimension, or otherwise creating them to use against the player which he also summoned there himself.

Regardless, it wouldn't matter, as the ability to just a hax in some Tier 1 space proves and supports nothing, unless it actually affects a Tier 1 character.

Where in our standards does it say haxing a tier 1 character is the only method of scaling a hax to tier 1? All that’s necessary is providing evidence that it works on a tier 1 scale.

Which would be relevant for power and irrelevant for hax potency. Since nothing in Pokémon has TIer 1 hax potency in these things, the totality of all of existence's hax potency would still not be Tier 1.

You are missing the point, and again, putting words that I didn’t say in my mouth.

This isn’t “all of existences hax potency”. This is about All of existence itself being an aspect, which includes the said Low 1-C dimension.

Because All of Creation is an aspect of the plates, the plates that are also the origin of all Pokémon powers, there exists a correlation between these powers and Arceus’s dimension.

On top of that, we have found characters who are literally their own dimension as having their abilities scale to themselves. Why would All of creation, that includes Arceus’s Low 1-C realm, and is an aspect of the very thing where all Pokémon powers come from, not scale them to each other?

The hax page explicitely states that hax potency is unrelated to AP & Tier i.e. the characters capability to produce energy. Likewise, we don't consider character to have hax potency increases when they have power increases (Note 1) and we had threads in the past about how characters getting tier 1 power doesn't upgrade their hax potency correspondingly.

I understand that, but what happens when it becomes a case of a characters power having haxy components to them? This isn’t just about producing energy.

Arceus’s power given off was distorting his dimension and the cosmology, time and space. That shows that it was used in a manner of hax and not just a matter of pure power getting unleashed and destroying, and this said power is apart of his own plates.

And we obviously aren’t arguing the hax should be upgraded just because the tier was.

Power increase isn't hax potency increase. A poison doesn't become stronger because you have more biggatons and neither does spatial cutting. The entire idea of hax is that it is independent of raw power.

Already said that upgrading the hax because of a power increase is not what we are attempting here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Im seriously tired of this "But nobody else in pokémon has 5D hax so Arceus being 5D can't have 5D hax" crap

How Dante or anyone got 8D hax when nobody is 8D in that verse?

I don't know DMC well, but IIRC from what I heard in a thread it is because they have higher dimensional souls or something and people actually affected those. I.e. hax was used on Tier 1 target.

But I could be wrong there.

If the problem is affecting another Tier 1 character, then there are the Giants. They were the original source of the Plates' power and of a similar level to True form Arceus. I commented about them before in this thread.

Must be affected via the hax in question specifically. So the very vague giants really don't help the matter.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I want someone to link the hax standards to me and show me where this “actually affecting a tier 1 character” requirement supposedly is.

I have never seen anything like that here and don’t understand why something not being done on a Low 1-C scale (or any x tier scale) isn’t enough to just scale the hax.

 

[Faron25]

Must be affected via the hax in question specifically. So the very vague giants really don't help the matter.

The inscription on the Plates said only that they were defeated and absorbed by Arceus. Anyway, we know which are the powers and hax of the Plates and so of the Giants. How can they have powers but be incapable of using them? And how could Arceus win and absorb them with only 2A Tier creation if they are Low-1C entities?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Because it isn’t an actual reason, unless ignoring 95% of presented evidence is something you find acceptable on this site.

The only “reason” given for disagreement is that fighting inside a realm doesn’t prove anything, which I already said from the beginning that it isn’t the main argument or reasons I used. Stronger evidence than this was given on top of that.

Following that was also literally nothing but asking questions, to stuff that my thread already gave evidence for.

So no, these were not reasons. That response painfully ignored almost everything I brought forth, focused on on single point that I said from the start was only supporting details to my whole argument, and used that as a blanket method of just disagreeing without addressing everything else. So unless we find quick hand wavy counter responses that don’t address everything presented as acceptable responses, this is not a valid disagreement.

So no. And if you continue to accuse me of being dishonest, when I already counted your vote (so that accusation of me trying to make this an unanimous vote goes out the window), I will be reporting you to the Rule Violations Thread and Human Resources if necessary. You aren’t going to attack my character and make me appear to do something that I’m not doing

I think he made it clear that he considers your reasoning too assumptive, in addition to the points he brought up. Which in my book is a valid reasoning for disagreement.

But sure. I retract my statement of you being dishonest on this occasion. However, I maintain my official warning that you shouldn't lightly disregard (especially staff) opinions because you find their counterarguments lacking. I urge you to put more consideration into that in the future and maintain that you should not disregard this one.

Not when it’s Arceus himself allowing them to be inside the dimension, or otherwise creating them to use against the player which he also summoned there himself.

In which case the particular spacetime he allowed in isn't necessarily Tier 1, making the argument moot. Basically, if he doesn't have Tier 1 hax, he couldn't have let in Tier 1 spacetime either.

Where in our standards does it say haxing a tier 1 character is the only method of scaling a hax to tier 1? All that’s necessary is providing evidence that it works on a tier 1 scale.

Never claimed that's the only way. I suppose what I said was easy to misunderstand, though. My line of thought was that usually using hax in Tier 1 dimensions is Tier 1, but only because usually said hax affects a Tier 1 character housed in that dimension. That's not the case here.

Of course affecting some non-character Tier 1 target also works, but that isn't the case here either.

You are missing the point, and again, putting words that I didn’t say in my mouth.

This isn’t “all of existences hax potency”. This is about All of existence itself being an aspect, which includes the said Low 1-C dimension.

Because All of Creation is an aspect of the plates, the plates that are also the origin of all Pokémon powers, there exists a correlation between these powers and Arceus’s dimension.

Not a correlation relevant for hax potency. You are basically arguing that the potency of a poison is affected by its sources metaphysical omnipresence, which it is not. Ultimately, your argument just comes down to "Tier 1 thing produces hax, so hax must be Tier 1", but that reasoning isn't accepted.

On top of that, we have found characters who are literally their own dimension as having their abilities scale to themselves. Why would All of creation, that includes Arceus’s Low 1-C realm, and is an aspect of the very thing where all Pokémon powers come from, not scale them to each other?

I don't know those cases, so the blanket answer is because they either are wrong as well or have other circumstances.

I understand that, but what happens when it becomes a case of a characters power having haxy components to them? This isn’t just about producing energy.

Arceus’s power given off was distorting his dimension and the cosmology, time and space. That shows that it was used in a manner of hax and not just a matter of pure power getting unleashed and destroying, and this said power is apart of his own plates.

And we obviously aren’t arguing the hax should be upgraded just because the tier was.

The time and space that really shouldn't be in his dimension. Not to mention that the source of the is highly questionable, seeing as the cosmology model in the movie depicts the cosmology wrong. (It depicts Arceus dimension comparable to all others for instance, while the Tier 1 rating requires it to be entirely different and superior.)

Basically, I don't see sufficient evidence that the spacetime shaken is Tier 1 in scale. I rather believe that it is the standard Dialga & Palkia spacetime that is shaken, possibly in addition to another not 5D component introduced into part of the dimensions. But I see no reason to believe that it includes the Tier 1 realms full scale, given that that has no spacetime.

It would, in any case, not scale to any other hax. So Arceus would be stuck with 5D spacetime shacking only even if this were accepted. After all, this is rather explicitly not Arceus doing some direct spacetime manipulation but just Arceus releasing lots of energy to mess up reality.

 

[Tatsumi504]

The inscription on the Plates said only that they were defeated and absorbed by Arceus. Anyway, we know which are the powers and hax of the Plates and so of the Giants. How can they have powers but be incapable of using them? And how could Arceus win and absorb them with only 2A Tier creation if they are Low-1C entities?

I'm just watching this CRT not taking part so you can choose to ignore this but, the burden of proof falls on you to prove the giants has 5D resistances.

Like with arceus right now the giants could physically be 5-D but their hax and resistances won't

 

[DontTalkDT]

The inscription on the Plates said only that they were defeated and absorbed by Arceus. Anyway, we know which are the powers and hax of the Plates and so of the Giants. How can they have powers but be incapable of using them? And how could Arceus win and absorb them with only 2A Tier creation if they are Low-1C entities?

He can defeat them via his Low 1-C power?

And they can have the power but not on Tier 1 potency either? Heck, we don't even know if these are glass canons or whatever.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Does Pokemon have any Universal Energy System? That'll basically solve any problems y'all are having here

 

[Arceus0x]

Does Pokemon have any Universal Energy System? That'll basically solve any problems y'all are having here

all pokemon do use a type of energy for their attacks

 

[DontTalkDT]

Does Pokemon have any Universal Energy System? That'll basically solve any problems y'all are having here

It won't. Universal energy system don't upgrade hax potency or resistance by default.

 

[Sniper670]

Does Pokemon have any Universal Energy System? That'll basically solve any problems y'all are having here

1. Infinity Energy
2. The Typings. The Plates holds the essence of that, like a concept sort of, all Pokémon downscale from it.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It won't. Universal energy system don't upgrade hax potency or resistance by default.

If the hax itself is a property of said energy shouldn't it scale? Just like Archiesonic and the chaos force

 

[DontTalkDT]

If the hax itself is a property of said energy shouldn't it scale? Just like Archiesonic and the chaos force

No. That's like saying hax based on magic upscales when you get more mana. We don't do that. Hax potency is simply not an issue of power. Poison doesn't get more poisonous by you creating more energetic poison.

 

[Ego]

Mods basically say No to everything in this site so I wouldn't be surprised if Arceus always remains trash in this tier but everyone else gets steroids asap

 

[Sniper670]

No. That's like saying hax based on magic upscales when you get more mana. We don't do that. Hax potency is simply not an issue of power. Poison doesn't get more poisonous by you creating more energetic poison.

Den you better downgrade Sonic then. Lol

 

[Ego]

No. That's like saying hax based on magic upscales when you get more mana. We don't do that. Hax potency is simply not an issue of power. Poison doesn't get more poisonous by you creating more energetic poison.

So like... it's just this wiki that doesn't do that?

Yeah lol I don't even know why i use this wiki

 

[theultimate5105]

I'm just watching this CRT not taking part so you can choose to ignore this but, the burden of proof falls on you to prove the giants has 5D resistances.

Like with arceus right now the giants could physically be 5-D but their hax and resistances won't

The Giants are 5-D physically
Arceus Haxed the Giants
therefore Arceus’s Hax can effect 5D beings.
Also anything having resistences below its dimensionality makes zero sense as said hax could not effect them to begin with

 

[Faron25]

I'm just watching this CRT not taking part so you can choose to ignore this but, the burden of proof falls on you to prove the giants has 5D resistances.

Like with arceus right now the giants could physically be 5-D but their hax and resistances won't

He can defeat them via his Low 1-C power?

And they can have the power but not on Tier 1 potency either? Heck, we don't even know if these are glass canons or whatever.

Ok, I was thinking that them being over the entire Pokémon verse was sufficient to consider without a doubt that their powers and hax over the 2A Tier (Low-1C since they are comparable to Arceus). Thank you for the clarification to both of you.

Edit: Isn't what theultimate5105 said reasonable though?

 

[Sniper670]

No. That's like saying hax based on magic upscales when you get more mana. We don't do that. Hax potency is simply not an issue of power. Poison doesn't get more poisonous by you creating more energetic poison.

So your arguement is that Arceus, with power over all creation, cannot use his powers on his realm besides creating it and destroying it

Do you have PROOF???????

Tell me, it's your word against the Plates.

Plates says it's it's imbued with the essence of ALL creation, giving the god over a reality, power over all things within the reality.

What do you have to say for yourself.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The Giants are 5-D physically
Arceus Haxed the Giants
therefore Arceus’s Hax can effect 5D beings.
Also anything having resistences below its dimensionality makes zero sense as said hax could not effect them to begin with

I see neither proof of the giants being physically 5D nor that Arceus specifically defeated them via hax. So nah.

So your arguement is that Arceus, with power over all creation, cannot use his powers on his realm besides creating it and destroying it

Do you have PROOF???????

Tell me, it's your word against the Plates.

Plates says it's it's imbued with the essence of ALL creation, giving the god over a reality, power over all things within the reality.

What do you have to say for yourself.

Burden of proof is on you.

All I see here is statements of power that don't apply to the various hax Arceus has.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Im seriously tired of this "But nobody else in pokémon has 5D hax so Arceus being 5D can't have 5D hax" crap

How Dante or anyone got 8D hax when nobody is 8D in that verse?

I don’t see how making arguments like these helps Arceus’ case. If DMC hax is incorrect that’s not a reason to upgrade Arceus (keyword being “if”, I don’t know the context for that verse but it’s apparently brought up everywhere).

 

[theultimate5105]

I see neither proof of the giants being physically 5D nor that Arceus specifically defeated them via hax. So nah.

They are of a similar level to Arceus with them predating creation which includes his Dimension
and Arceus took their powers and infused them into the plates (This is Power absorption on 5-D beings)

 

[Sniper670]

.


Burden of proof is on you.

All I see here is statements of power that don't apply to the hax Arceus has.

Okay. From plates it says he has power over ALL things, due to plates holding the Essence of all things

Explain to us why it's limited to creation hax in your own humblest opinion

You're literally repeating the same thing Everything(user) said before

All things doesn't exclude anything. So the burden of proof is actually on you

 

[Sniper670]

They are of a similar level to Arceus with them predating creation which includes his Dimension
and Arceus took their powers and infused them into the plates (This is Power absorption on 5-D beings)

His True Form doesn't fight tho. Defeated Giants is Arceus the Pokémon, not The Heart.

The Heart is external to reality. Everything exists in its mind and has no influence on him

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Idk why DMC got mentioned but just to clarify.

The souls in DMC are 9D, they come and return to a higher dimension, said dimension is contained within the Demon world.

The Demon world energy farted the Demon world into existence (same Demon world that contains the higher dimension above) and said Demon world energy (DWE) can **** up those souls, create more Demon worlds, etc.

Any fodder Demon resist all the shit the DWE can do by default and Dante can hax them.



As for this thread, I definitely agree with Kukui. If your existence is x dimension your shit and your hax should be the same too. There is literally no reason to believe that the abilities are infinite times lower to you or akin to fiction to yo.

 

[Sniper670]

I see.... That makes sense

 

[DaReaperMan]

Is this another case of "Well I said so" from staff when it's written nowhere? If you got an issue add it to site standards, we don't do unwritten rules here

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m at work right now so I can’t make any major responses until later, but something else I wanted to bring up about the Plates.

Doesn’t one of the plates literally say that the plates were infused with the shards of the universe? Aka, when creating the cosmology, part of existence became the plates?

 

[Jibz]

pokemon supporters incessant need to bring up other verses they dont understand the scaling of as a “but they have this” is genuinely making me hate the verse more then SCP.

Also neutral lol cuz DT giving me food for thought.

 

[Ego]

Alright Alright relax I won't bring up DMC damn man we get it...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

pokemon supporters incessant need to bring up other verses they dont understand the scaling of as a “but they have this” is genuinely making me hate the verse more then SCP.

Literally every supporter for any verse on this site does the same thing, stop singling one series out for it (and it’s hardly annoying when it’s an actual double standard but I regress).

 

[DaReaperMan]

Didn't you know Kukui? The site runs on double standards. That's what I've learned in my time here.

 

[Jibz]

Literally every supporter for any verse on this site does the same thing, stop singling one series out for it (and it’s hardly annoying when it’s an actual double standard but I regress).

Singling out?? Homeboy its a pokemon thread, and something ive seen consistently done ON pokemon threads which i dont see on other crts i look at, maybe you have, but when i comment i look at my experiences rather then yours.


Another thing pokemon supporters do that are annoying : victimising their verse as a target of bias.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Singling out?? Homeboy its a pokemon thread, and something ive seen consistently done ON pokemon threads which i dont see on other crts i look at, maybe you have, but when i comment i look at my experiences rather then yours.

DBZ literally changed the infinite speed standards when they finally qualified for it and people didn’t want to upgrade them

You must not see many threads then. Who cares if it’s a Pokémon thread? This is something done all over the wiki, not just for Pokémon. Do not single out a series and start drama over it.

Another thing pokemon supporters do that are annoying : victimising their verse as a target of bias.

The recent previous threads that have happened here and how opposition has acted should already answer this, but im not going to have this thread be derailed with needless drama

If you don’t have anything constructive or useful to add to the discussion, then please don’t respond here.