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Stop derailing. You're not helping this thread either way.
Anyway, Kukui, you can move me to Neutral. DT makes some good points.
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Arceus Low 1-C Hax Upgrade
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
Anyway, Kukui, you can move me to Neutral. DT makes some good points.
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It's ridiculous for them to comment on pokemon without knowing Bratan pokemon because
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go away. Just leave. Go do a squirtle vs totodile match or sth. Go.
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- Thread starter
- #285
Wait wait wait
When in the hell was Arceus’s dimension ever stated to lack space-time?
That’s not the reason it was upgraded to Low 1-C at all.
When in the hell was Arceus’s dimension ever stated to lack space-time?
That’s not the reason it was upgraded to Low 1-C at all.
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It wasn't the reason but prior to the thread, i remember somewhere it being said, maybe bulbapedia, idk
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- Thread starter
- #287
I’m off this site for 2 days and I’m more confused by the opposing points than ever.
Why are points like
“No need for Arceus to create 5-D space time for a human”
“Arceus introduced space-time only for the purposes of the event”
“Arceus’s dimension is stated to usually lack space-time”
Being brought up here?
Why are points like
“No need for Arceus to create 5-D space time for a human”
“Arceus introduced space-time only for the purposes of the event”
“Arceus’s dimension is stated to usually lack space-time”
Being brought up here?
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- Thread starter
- #288
I don’t recall this at all though. But lacking space-time wasn’t the reason the upgrade was accepted.
It was accepted because the dimension transcends time and space.
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I think there is some confusion between the Chaos before the creation (which in fact lacks space-time) and Arceus' Dimension (of which we don't have any particular statement in this regard).
Sniper670
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Reality exists inside The Heart which exists inside chaos.
He's beyond dimensional existence of the reality..
Everything(user) told me the justification for low 1C was based on Arceus dimension being a higher dimension than reality, no? His True Form doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. We're using Arceus Dimension
He's beyond dimensional existence of the reality..
Everything(user) told me the justification for low 1C was based on Arceus dimension being a higher dimension than reality, no? His True Form doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. We're using Arceus Dimension
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If the description of the UES explicitly states that it in fact upscales, for example.
The plates are the embodiment of the 3D powers Pokémon use, not of 5D hax. Being the embodiment (or more like energy source in this case) of 3D hax while being 5D doesn't make the hax 5D. You're trying to conflate hax potency and energy/dimensionality. It just doesn't work. Their existence status just doesn't conflate with their hax's potency. It's like saying that a cube that can give people poison powers can generate infinitely more potent poison if you give it more energy or add two extra dimensional axis to it. There's no correlation there.
The dimension wouldn't transcend spacetime if it had spacetime. If you seriously want to argue that the spacetime transcending dimension is just a small part of spacetime, then we might have to rethink that Tier 1 upgrade, because that's straight up a contradiction.
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Kukui literally got ee'd by Don'tTalk's goon erasure.
Sad sight to see tbh.
Sad sight to see tbh.
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Bumping because my disagreement still hasn't been added, and DT's arguments have only grown more convincing.
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Low 1-C Arceus? I'm..... Lost
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While kukui is offline, i'll throw in my cents.
The plates are not "embodiment of 3D hax", said hax originates from their power, just like everyone originates from arceus, who is not just 3D or 4D despite embodying 3D people or 4D multiverses, besides the fact that roar of time and spatial rend, which cause 4D damage and hax effects, are dragon type moves, and thus come from the plates just like palkia and dialga, who are also 4D, got types and come from arceus, so no the plates are not limited to embodying 3D hax.
You are saying that hax that has 5D dimensionality doesn't have 5D potency, despite the fact that the only reason hax can't affect higher D beings is range.
The same energy that causes dimensional hax with 5D "potency" is used for the other hax, and they don't have the same "potency"? Despite moves with 4D potency and hax being directly given the same types used for 3D hax? I see some correlation there.
Also, from the HDE page:
Pseudo-Invulnerability: Due to the additional axis spatially inherent to them, higher-dimensional objects are comprised of more information than what can normally be described in lower-dimensional spaces, and thus may only be capable of interacting with them through lower-dimensional "slices" or cross-sections of their bodies.
this screams to me that the only reason they are invulnerable to lower beings is lack of range, and this is no different to higher D via reality fiction or qualitative existence, the lower beings don't exist in the same plane to affect them, but once they get the range, they clearly can now, and if those 2 latter types of higher D fuction differently, this should be on the page.
I still not sure on the battle reiverieirirjei party myself so i won't touch it, is only supporting evidence anyway.
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You missed the threads? Well basically true arceus fits the "qualitatively superior in nature" type of transcendence and was accepted as possibly low 1-C, then we found out there was more votes for a solid rating and here we are
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The "it's just a matter of range" thing is currently not accepted. I made a thread a long time ago to revise how hax works with higher-dimensions, but that never finished. (and if it did, this debate would be very different to begin with, as it was actually more nuanced) The HDE page lists one specific reason why lower-dimensional hax doesn't work against higher-dimensional beings, which is indeed a true proper reason. However, it doesn't change potency consideration. Mind you, Arceus doesn't even have 5D HDE, but 4D, since his Tier 1 form has BDE as it is supposedly beyond dimensions of space in nature. (at least that's how I rationalize the weird fact that the profile lists HDE and BDE)
If it were just a matter of range also consider the flip side: It would mean that even if it were 5D all usual basic resistance of 3D characters against it would still work. That's not how we currently do things.
Anways, aside from that, you're just repeating the argument that a 5D source of 3D hax should have 5D hax. As I already said, it is established that a higher D being won't just get its hax upgraded for being higher D, as being powered by something higher tier is irrelevant for hax. In the same way, the plates being objects with 5D power won't upgrade their 3D hax to higher levels. Hax potency isn't a function of power so that the plates can power the same hax with 5D energy just doesn't change things.
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I mean, if the thread never finished than how is it accepted, i mean just saying it affects how HDE interacts with hax doesn't help either but eh, I listed one reason yeah, but i see no other reasons there besides range, and the BDE page only says that characters with it are resistant/immune to spacetime hax, nothing about lower hax, even then doesn't change the fact that he is tier 1 for it and so is the energy used for it's hax.
The difference is that 3D hax is not 3D anymore if it can affect 5D structures, 5D hax is still 5D regardless of who is attacked, the point is that the only reason the HDE pages give for their to be immune is because they are too big and complex for the hax to reach them, which is throw out of the window if said hax works in the same plane as them, and this probably even worse if their HDE is not spatial but qualitatively superior like arceus and his dimension, which he affected, as it is not even a case of affecting more directions but affecting something superior to the lower worlds in every way
First of all, i already proved they aren't limited to 3D hax as 4D beings with 4D attacks that make 4D damage and hax effects are part of the plate types.
Second, you are still ignoring how they are not objects with just 5D power, they are objects whose energy has 5D hax, and thus the other hax should scale as the energy comes from the same source, this is not AP, this is Hax scaling to other hax.
This is not AP = Hax, this is tier 1 hax uses same energy as other hax, of which both arceus and other pokemon can draw power from to change or increase their types/moves.
If arceus can draw power from it's plates, which have shown 5D hax energy, in the same way other pokemon can draw a fraction of it, regardless if they are 3D or 4D (creation trio) to boost their moves based on their types, why would the creator of them, who performed the 5D hax feat, poured it's power to create them, and gifted us one that has the essence of all creation, which includes his dimension, and is used exclusively to change arceus and his move type, not be able to use the same energy, which it does to use said hax and nullify them, as 5D hax, when he already was shown to use them for a 5D hax feat before?
The difference is that 3D hax is not 3D anymore if it can affect 5D structures, 5D hax is still 5D regardless of who is attacked, the point is that the only reason the HDE pages give for their to be immune is because they are too big and complex for the hax to reach them, which is throw out of the window if said hax works in the same plane as them, and this probably even worse if their HDE is not spatial but qualitatively superior like arceus and his dimension, which he affected, as it is not even a case of affecting more directions but affecting something superior to the lower worlds in every way
First of all, i already proved they aren't limited to 3D hax as 4D beings with 4D attacks that make 4D damage and hax effects are part of the plate types.
Second, you are still ignoring how they are not objects with just 5D power, they are objects whose energy has 5D hax, and thus the other hax should scale as the energy comes from the same source, this is not AP, this is Hax scaling to other hax.
This is not AP = Hax, this is tier 1 hax uses same energy as other hax, of which both arceus and other pokemon can draw power from to change or increase their types/moves.
If arceus can draw power from it's plates, which have shown 5D hax energy, in the same way other pokemon can draw a fraction of it, regardless if they are 3D or 4D (creation trio) to boost their moves based on their types, why would the creator of them, who performed the 5D hax feat, poured it's power to create them, and gifted us one that has the essence of all creation, which includes his dimension, and is used exclusively to change arceus and his move type, not be able to use the same energy, which it does to use said hax and nullify them, as 5D hax, when he already was shown to use them for a 5D hax feat before?
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His HDE is 5-D
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Wait a minute, I hope you're not really claiming that arceus haxes is 3D.
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Yep, it's just that Hsi hates haven't affected anyone on a 5D scale.
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I knew we would bring it here, no offense or anything just a prediction.
We really only need the anime to be connected to the main games and the argument remains the same, because we haven't used other media IIRC, (tbh i saw no strong evidence against it in the thread for that but it will be decided later there, don't wanna bring it here nor can i really argue the whole canon stuff)
To clarify, the games gives us low 1-C arceus and his dimension + his plates info, while the anime is where he has a low 1-C feat hax that helps the argument, i feel like the legend plate argument alongside my last comment's final paragraph could work as a last ditch effort but yeah, would be best if the anime doesn't get cut
We really only need the anime to be connected to the main games and the argument remains the same, because we haven't used other media IIRC, (tbh i saw no strong evidence against it in the thread for that but it will be decided later there, don't wanna bring it here nor can i really argue the whole canon stuff)
To clarify, the games gives us low 1-C arceus and his dimension + his plates info, while the anime is where he has a low 1-C feat hax that helps the argument, i feel like the legend plate argument alongside my last comment's final paragraph could work as a last ditch effort but yeah, would be best if the anime doesn't get cut
Sniper670
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There's a universe where Ash exists alongside Game characters AKA Pokémon Masters
So yes, both worlds do exist alongside each other in the multiverse
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If the thread doesn't end up debunking that or anything, this won't be affected, i think arceus will not even lose any meaningful hax if he loses the spin offs and stuff, his best juice comes from his status in the games and stuff given in the movies and anime
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Anyway I agree
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hell the new evidence we got for the other plate threads, the plates energy correlating directly to the types and moves, can be even more support evidence.
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Am I 2 months late, yes. But do I agree FRA also yes
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