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Stop derailing. You're not helping this thread either way.We know that dt's tier knowledge is very good, but I cannot say the same for his pokemon knowledge.
Anyway, Kukui, you can move me to Neutral. DT makes some good points.
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Stop derailing. You're not helping this thread either way.We know that dt's tier knowledge is very good, but I cannot say the same for his pokemon knowledge.
Why do you do this bro.
go away. Just leave. Go do a squirtle vs totodile match or sth. Go.It's ridiculous for them to comment on pokemon without knowing Bratan pokemon because
I don’t recall this at all though. But lacking space-time wasn’t the reason the upgrade was accepted.It wasn't the reason but prior to the thread, i remember somewhere it being said, maybe bulbapedia, idk
I think there is some confusion between the Chaos before the creation (which in fact lacks space-time) and Arceus' Dimension (of which we don't have any particular statement in this regard).I’m off this site for 2 days and I’m more confused by the opposing points than ever.
Why are points like
“No need for Arceus to create 5-D space time for a human”
“Arceus introduced space-time only for the purposes of the event”
“Arceus’s dimension is stated to usually lack space-time”
Being brought up here?
If the description of the UES explicitly states that it in fact upscales, for example.Usually.
Name the criteria for the exception because in Pokémon, I feel it kind of does
The plates are the embodiment of the 3D powers Pokémon use, not of 5D hax. Being the embodiment (or more like energy source in this case) of 3D hax while being 5D doesn't make the hax 5D. You're trying to conflate hax potency and energy/dimensionality. It just doesn't work. Their existence status just doesn't conflate with their hax's potency. It's like saying that a cube that can give people poison powers can generate infinitely more potent poison if you give it more energy or add two extra dimensional axis to it. There's no correlation there.I don’t get this part specifically, skimming through your argument (will read in full soon)
The plates are the essence of all of the hax in Pokémon, they aren’t even AP focused, all hax in Pokémon downscale from them. If they are 5D, then their hax is 5D. If a 5D entity is an embodiment of hax, it’s safe to say the hax in question are 5D. The plates are literally 5D hax materialised, and Arceus created them, and can use them
*Assuming the plates are 5D here
The dimension wouldn't transcend spacetime if it had spacetime. If you seriously want to argue that the spacetime transcending dimension is just a small part of spacetime, then we might have to rethink that Tier 1 upgrade, because that's straight up a contradiction.I don’t recall this at all though. But lacking space-time wasn’t the reason the upgrade was accepted.
It was accepted because the dimension transcends time and space.
Bumping because my disagreement still hasn't been added, and DT's arguments have only grown more convincing.I'm in agreement with DontTalk on this one.
And by the way, what's with the OP still not being updated to include the people who disagreed with the thread?
While kukui is offline, i'll throw in my cents.snip
You missed the threads? Well basically true arceus fits the "qualitatively superior in nature" type of transcendence and was accepted as possibly low 1-C, then we found out there was more votes for a solid rating and here we areLow 1-C Arceus? I'm..... Lost
The "it's just a matter of range" thing is currently not accepted. I made a thread a long time ago to revise how hax works with higher-dimensions, but that never finished. (and if it did, this debate would be very different to begin with, as it was actually more nuanced) The HDE page lists one specific reason why lower-dimensional hax doesn't work against higher-dimensional beings, which is indeed a true proper reason. However, it doesn't change potency consideration. Mind you, Arceus doesn't even have 5D HDE, but 4D, since his Tier 1 form has BDE as it is supposedly beyond dimensions of space in nature. (at least that's how I rationalize the weird fact that the profile lists HDE and BDE)While kukui is offline, i'll throw in my cents.
The plates are not "embodiment of 3D hax", said hax originates from their power, just like everyone originates from arceus, who is not just 3D or 4D despite embodying 3D people or 4D multiverses, besides the fact that roar of time and spatial rend, which cause 4D damage and hax effects, are dragon type moves, and thus come from the plates just like palkia and dialga, who are also 4D, got types and come from arceus, so no the plates are not limited to embodying 3D hax.
You are saying that hax that has 5D dimensionality doesn't have 5D potency, despite the fact that the only reason hax can't affect higher D beings is range.
The same energy that causes dimensional hax with 5D "potency" is used for the other hax, and they don't have the same "potency"? Despite moves with 4D potency and hax being directly given the same types used for 3D hax? I see some correlation there.
Also, from the HDE page:
Pseudo-Invulnerability: Due to the additional axis spatially inherent to them, higher-dimensional objects are comprised of more information than what can normally be described in lower-dimensional spaces, and thus may only be capable of interacting with them through lower-dimensional "slices" or cross-sections of their bodies.
this screams to me that the only reason they are invulnerable to lower beings is lack of range, and this is no different to higher D via reality fiction or qualitative existence, the lower beings don't exist in the same plane to affect them, but once they get the range, they clearly can now, and if those 2 latter types of higher D fuction differently, this should be on the page.
I still not sure on the battle reiverieirirjei party myself so i won't touch it, is only supporting evidence anyway.
His HDE is 5-DThe "it's just a matter of range" thing is currently not accepted. I made a thread a long time ago to revise how hax works with higher-dimensions, but that never finished. (and if it did, this debate would be very different to begin with, as it was actually more nuanced) The HDE page lists one specific reason why lower-dimensional hax doesn't work against higher-dimensional beings, which is indeed a true proper reason. However, it doesn't change potency consideration. Mind you, Arceus doesn't even have 5D HDE, but 4D, since his Tier 1 form has BDE as it is supposedly beyond dimensions of space in nature. (at least that's how I rationalize the weird fact that the profile lists HDE and BDE)
Wait a minute, I hope you're not really claiming that arceus haxes is 3D.The "it's just a matter of range" thing is currently not accepted. I made a thread a long time ago to revise how hax works with higher-dimensions, but that never finished. (and if it did, this debate would be very different to begin with, as it was actually more nuanced) The HDE page lists one specific reason why lower-dimensional hax doesn't work against higher-dimensional beings, which is indeed a true proper reason. However, it doesn't change potency consideration. Mind you, Arceus doesn't even have 5D HDE, but 4D, since his Tier 1 form has BDE as it is supposedly beyond dimensions of space in nature. (at least that's how I rationalize the weird fact that the profile lists HDE and BDE)
If it were just a matter of range also consider the flip side: It would mean that even if it were 5D all usual basic resistance of 3D characters against it would still work. That's not how we currently do things.
Anways, aside from that, you're just repeating the argument that a 5D source of 3D hax should have 5D hax. As I already said, it is established that a higher D being won't just get its hax upgraded for being higher D, as being powered by something higher tier is irrelevant for hax. In the same way, the plates being objects with 5D power won't upgrade their 3D hax to higher levels. Hax potency isn't a function of power so that the plates can power the same hax with 5D energy just doesn't change things.
Yep, it's just that Hsi hates haven't affected anyone on a 5D scale.Arceus haxes affect Dialga and Palkia who are 4D existences
There's a universe where Ash exists alongside Game characters AKA Pokémon MastersI knew we would bring it here, no offense or anything just a prediction.
We really only need the anime to be connected to the main games and the argument remains the same, because we haven't used other media IIRC, (tbh i saw no strong evidence against it in the thread for that but it will be decided later there, don't wanna bring it here nor can i really argue the whole canon stuff)
To clarify, the games gives us low 1-C arceus and his dimension + his plates info, while the anime is where he has a low 1-C feat hax that helps the argument, i feel like the legend plate argument alongside my last comment's final paragraph could work as a last ditch effort but yeah, would be best if the anime doesn't get cut