Another sage mode multiplier thread (speed)

[Reio35]

This does not apply here.

The CS2 multiplier (and any other chakra mode) is just a massive amount of chakra being spread throughout all the tenketsu in the body. It is shown in Neji's fight that when Kidomaru releases CS, all the tenketsu in his body are filled with chakra (which obviously also happens with CS2, but the amount is much higher.) The chakra is released throughout the body, and with that the character is 10x stronger, it makes no sense just his AP to be improved by 10x because this chakra is "running" and filling the whole body.

And we have 2 examples in the series that when a character is mentioned X times stronger, it means that he is faster in the same proportion. In the Databook and Boruto's Anime is mentioned that all of the chouji's body attributes are increased in butterfly mode. And the retsuden novel mentions that the Kido got orders of magnitude stronger, and it's also said that he got faster by the same proportion. Getting stronger through a chakra mode means the character also got faster in same proportion. The functioning of the chakra and the examples point to this, you are left acting as if we have just an isolated statement, and it is not the case.

Not always. The juubi has many times more chakra then the shinobi alliance yet people can still react to it. Kaguya had many times more chakra than team 7 and obito yet they still could react to her. So that just proves all their chakra reserves aren't bening converted into stats equally

Obito had more chakra than bsm Naruto and ems sasuke yet they could keep up with him

 

[Samlex1234]

Not always. The juubi has many times more chakra then the shinobi alliance yet people can still react to it. Kaguya had many times more chakra than team 7 and obito yet they still could react to her. So that just proves all their chakra reserves aren't bening converted into stats equally

Obito had more chakra than bsm Naruto and ems sasuke yet they could keep up with him

Tail beast are proven to be weaker when not using a jijuriki, most especially when it comes to speed. Honestly this doesn’t even matter has the juubi is scaled higher than most shinobi. Even relavistic > 4 raikage

kaguya was blantly faster than team 7 and the only reason some could keep up was when charkra dropEd so much she had to refill it. is It not on this wiki where we scale kaguya > Sakura, obito and kakashi in terms of speed. Only dms kakashi could later match kaguya.

if this is about jubito, we know the reason he lost that fight was due to minato and mental issues. Even apart from that How do you know That jubito has more charkra than BSM naruto, and amped EMS Sasuke with curse seal?

again non of this even has anything to do with sage mode charkra as it clearly says and gives the amount of amps it provides.

 

[Reio35]

Tail beast are proven to be weaker when not using a jijuriki, most especially when it comes to speed. Honestly this doesn’t even matter has the juubi is scaled higher than most shinobi. Even relavistic > 4 raikage

With or without their host their chakra is still far above anyone on the planet. Hence why momoshiki went after the nine biju cause thier chakra was the highest on the planet.

Yeah the juubi scales higher yet can be reacted to by plp who scale much lower then him. Logically the juubi should have blizted everyone using your arguments

kaguya was blantly faster than team 7 and the only reason some could keep up was when charkra dropEd so much she had to refill it. is It not on this wiki where we scale kaguya > Sakura, obito and kakashi in terms of speed. Only dms kakashi could later match kaguya.

Obito reacted to ash bone so did kakashi before even got dms. And DMS kakashi doesnt have anywhere near as much chakra as kaguya. Naruto was swapping hands with her multi times before she went low on chakra. DMS kakashi reacted to an even stronger kaguya

if this is about jubito, we know the reason he lost that fight was due to minato and mental issues. Even apart from that How do you know That jubito has more charkra than BSM naruto, and amped EMS Sasuke with curse seal?

Talk no justu ant kick in till later on in the fight.

Juubito has the 10 tails which has the most chakra on earth by leaps and bounds wdym?

again non of this even has anything to do with sage mode charkra as it clearly says and gives the amount of amps it provides.

 

[Reio35]

Tail beast are proven to be weaker when not using a jijuriki, most especially when it comes to speed. Honestly this doesn’t even matter has the juubi is scaled higher than most shinobi. Even relavistic > 4 raikage

kaguya was blantly faster than team 7 and the only reason some could keep up was when charkra dropEd so much she had to refill it. is It not on this wiki where we scale kaguya > Sakura, obito and kakashi in terms of speed. Only dms kakashi could later match kaguya.

if this is about jubito, we know the reason he lost that fight was due to minato and mental issues. Even apart from that How do you know That jubito has more charkra than BSM naruto, and amped EMS Sasuke with curse seal?

again non of this even has anything to do with sage mode charkra as it clearly says and gives the amount of amps it provides.

Also the raikage for example puts most his chakra into speed which is why hes the fastest out of the five kage. Tsunada puts all her chakra into power which is why shes the strongest of the five. These are prime examples chakra isn't equally distributed throughout the body.

 

[Godernet]

the best way to describe it is that if an individual gets a 2x amp(not 2x chakra) they should have double the potency for stats. but if another individual has twice as much chakra as person 1 that does not mean they will be twice as fast as there is still potency and chakra control to factor in. an example of this difference being that the juubi was slow enough for anyone and everyone to tag but juubito was blitzing the hokage.

 

[Samlex1234]

With or without their host their chakra is still far above anyone on the planet. Hence why momoshiki went after the nine biju cause thier chakra was the highest on the planet.

Yeah the juubi scales higher yet can be reacted to by plp who scale much lower then him. Logically the juubi should have blizted everyone using your arguments

Obito reacted to ash bone so did kakashi before even got dms. And DMS kakashi doesnt have anywhere near as much chakra as kaguya. Naruto was swapping hands with her multi times before she went low on chakra. DMS kakashi reacted to an even stronger kaguya

Talk no justu ant kick in till later on in the fight.

Juubito has the 10 tails which has the most chakra on earth by leaps and bounds wdym?

Momoshiki literally said the 8 biju charkra was praticaly nothing when compared to the nine tails and didn’t even bother for the other tails.

i don’t care about this relavistic > than massively hypersonic / hypersonic again doesn’t the juubi have to deal with muiltiple people that are at least relativistic?

Ash bone that was distorted by gravity from a non balance moving kaguya that was low on chakra. lol.

Not true naruto could not even do anything unti she began to grow low on charkra. Same naruto that had part of all the tail beast charkra, nine tails, sage of six path mode charkra too And ashura charkra.

We don’t know how much charkra sage mode amped bujumode naruto has, same goes with sasuke. For instance Normal juubi was > bijou mode naruto but when naruto stacked sage mode on top of it he could react to juubto that was having mental issues and was struggling with the ten tails.

 

[Samlex1234]

Also the raikage for example puts most his chakra into speed which is why hes the fastest out of the five kage. Tsunada puts all her chakra into power which is why shes the strongest of the five. These are prime examples chakra isn't equally distributed throughout the body.

Raikage amps his speed with lighting , hence why is faster, and they were relative in strength before byakugo seal. You also forgot that tsunade as being storing chrakra in her forehead for decades.

 

[KingTempest]

correct me if I am wrong if you have an example but hasn’t if been said many times in the series that if you completely run out of chakra you just die. I’ve always viewed people saying they are out of chakra as them saying they have so little that they don’t have any left to infuse into anything useful, and if they truly had 0 they would be immobile/dead.

There's a difference between having no chakra in your body and losing the materials used for chakra.
The latter kills you.
The first doesn't

 

[Samlex1234]

There's a difference between having no chakra in your body and losing the materials used for chakra.
The latter kills you.
The first doesn't

having no charkra in your body means death plain and simple.

 

[Testarossa002]

Maybe we need to compile all relevant arguments and counter arguments then ask for more staff evaluation

 

[Samlex1234]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

having no charkra in your body means death plain and simple.

How you just gon say "no".

So in this diagram here when the chakra is done, they're dead?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

When your stamina is I imagine so

 

[KingTempest]

So when they aren't channeling chakra through their legs and feet, they're immobile?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I said stamina

 

[Godernet]

So when they aren't channeling chakra through their legs and feet, they're immobile?

Tbf chakra is always circulating through them via their Chakra Network. Whether or not they focus it to do jutsu or enhance a stat is completely separate.

 

[KingTempest]

Tbf chakra is always circulating through them via their Chakra Network. Whether or not they focus it to do jutsu or enhance a stat is completely separate.

It's not always circling through them, the pathways are there but it's not always there. We can see that when Byakugan users look inside the body, no chakra is there.

When a Byakugan user hits you and shuts off your nodes, are you immobile? Do you now freeze in space since 0 chakra = 0 m/s?

 

[Godernet]

Also what would we call the instance with Kakashi in the Pain Arc? He overused his Chakra to use one more Kamui than he could handle and that killed him.

 

[KingTempest]

Also what would we call the instance with Kakashi in the Pain Arc? He overused his Chakra to use one more Kamui than he could handle and that killed him.

Because he used up quite literally all the chakra in his body PLUS the materials to make the chakra, AKA the physical and spiritual energy in your body

 

[Godernet]

It's not always circling through them, the pathways are there but it's not always there. We can see that when Byakugan users look inside the body, no chakra is there.

When a Byakugan user hits you and shuts off your nodes, are you immobile? Do you now freeze in space since 0 chakra = 0 m/s?

Gentle Fist users only stop them from using the chakra it’s still present. It’s not like it’s erasing their physical and mental energies.

 

[KingTempest]

Gentle Fist users only stop them from using the chakra it’s still present. It’s not like it’s erasing their physical and mental energies.

Who told you that? They stop it from flowing throughout their bodies, which is why Neji was surprised that chakra was even flowing in Naruto's body

 

[Godernet]

Because he used up quite literally all the chakra in his body PLUS the materials to make the chakra, AKA the physical and spiritual energy in your body

Also the chakra pool is inherently just a pool of your mental and physical energies Why wouldn’t your chakra pool just be the entirety of your mental and physical energies. Are there any examples where they blatantly say they can use the building blocks to pull more chakra than what their pools should be?

 

[KingTempest]

Also the chakra pool is inherently just a pool of your mental and physical energies Why wouldn’t your chakra pool just be the entirety of your mental and physical energies. Are there any examples where they blatantly say they can use the building blocks to pull more chakra than what their pools should be?

Read here.

 

[Godernet]

Read here.

I’ll respond in a bit but I see what you’re saying now

 

[Samlex1234]

can you now understand that basis on this diagram how the 10 times multilpler applys to all stats? how It makes no sense for the strength to be amped by 10 yet the speed is not? Because if at a given time one can use 30 percent of his energy to amp his physical stats which directly correlates to taijustu or ninjutsu . If that 30 is multiplEd by 10 doesn’t that mean it taijustu should also go up by 10 which includes speed?

 

[Samlex1234]

Who told you that? They stop it from flowing throughout their bodies, which is why Neji was surprised that chakra was even flowing in Naruto's body

Are you not contradicting yourself here, if naruto is supposed to be immobile after the charkra pathways have been affected doesn’t that mean charkra is directly responsible for physical movements?

 

[GTsek]

Well, I will now give an argument that I believe resolves the situation. I don't think a separate CRT for Cs is needed, so here we go.

Well, for starters, on this site the First Gate multiplier is accepted as a 5x speed boost. For better context, in others verses we accepted multipliers that are a PS with other declared multipliers (Example: The character was declared to be 3x stronger than before, and has feats that make him faster than another character that has a declared increase of 2x in speed, does this make the 3x satatement be consistent in the speed increase, and this gives him a 3x increase in speed) or we use the "logic" (Example: going from 50% to 100% strength is considered a 2x increase), so we can use the same situation in Naruto.

During the first round of the Chunin Exams, the Sound trio (Dosu, Zaku, and Kim) attack Team 7, and Lee intervenes in the battle and uses the First Gate against Dosu. At first, even by Dosu's surprise, Lee manages to be superior to him and hit him with a full attack, however, during the battle, Dosu balances the fight and manages to keep up with Lee until the moment he defeats him with sound attacks. When Sasuke wake up, he has CS1 active and massacres Zaku, Dosu himself couldn't see Sasuke moving either and praises his speed and was surprised with Sasuke being fast even carrying his friends. Dosu himself declares that he didn't have any chance against Sasuke, and apologizes and leaves in fear. It is worth remembering that his mission was to kill Sasuke, he ran because of the fear and not because a some order. The narrative puts Sasuke CS1 on the same level or above Lee with the first gate, and the feats corroborates with the narrative, so: Sasuke CS1 ≥ First Gate Lee > Lee with weights > Sasuke base. With that said, here's the logic:

-CS1 is the incomplete manifestation of CS, it's half of it (50%), and it's a speed multiplier with feats and narrative that makes it comparable or superior to a 5x multiplier.

-CS2 is the full manifestation of CS, it's the maximum of it (100%), and is a speed multiplier superior than CS1, and is claimed to increase strength and chakra by 10x.

-If the CS2 is 100% and CS1 is 50%, this makes CS2 a 2x speed multiplier with a 2x increase above CS1, and CS1 has feats and narrative that puts it comparable or greater than a 5x speed multiplier. This makes CS2 a 10x speed multiplier, and is in agreement with 10x statement.

In short, CS2 is a 10x multiplier of chakra, strength and speed, and Sage Mode is stated to be a superior version of the CS, and this makes Sage Mode at least a 10x multiplier in speed.

 

[Samlex1234]

Well, I will now give an argument that I believe resolves the situation. I don't think a separate CRT for Cs is needed, so here we go.

Well, for starters, on this site the First Gate multiplier is accepted as a 5x speed boost. For better context, in others verses we accepted multipliers that are a PS with other declared multipliers (Example: The character was declared to be 3x stronger than before, and has feats that make him faster than another character that has a declared increase of 2x in speed, does this make the 3x satatement be consistent in the speed increase, and this gives him a 3x increase in speed) or we use the "logic" (Example: going from 50% to 100% strength is considered a 2x increase), so we can use the same situation in Naruto.

During the first round of the Chunin Exams, the Sound trio (Dosu, Zaku, and Kim) attack Team 7, and Lee intervenes in the battle and uses the First Gate against Dosu. At first, even by Dosu's surprise, Lee manages to be superior to him and hit him with a full attack, however, during the battle, Dosu balances the fight and manages to keep up with Lee until the moment he defeats him with sound attacks. When Sasuke wake up, he has CS1 active and massacres Zaku, Dosu himself couldn't see Sasuke moving either and praises his speed and was surprised with Sasuke being fast even carrying his friends. Dosu himself declares that he didn't have any chance against Sasuke, and apologizes and leaves in fear. It is worth remembering that his mission was to kill Sasuke, he ran because of the fear and not because a some order. The narrative puts Sasuke CS1 on the same level or above Lee with the first gate, and the feats corroborates with the narrative, so: Sasuke CS1 ≥ First Gate Lee > Lee with weights > Sasuke base. With that said, here's the logic:

-CS1 is the incomplete manifestation of CS, it's half of it (50%), and it's a speed multiplier with feats and narrative that makes it comparable or superior to a 5x multiplier.

-CS2 is the full manifestation of CS, it's the maximum of it (100%), and is a speed multiplier superior than CS1, and is claimed to increase strength and chakra by 10x.

-If the CS2 is 100% and CS1 is 50%, this makes CS2 a 2x speed multiplier with a 2x increase above CS1, and CS1 has feats and narrative that puts it comparable or greater than a 5x speed multiplier. This makes CS2 a 10x speed multiplier, and is in agreement with 10x statement.

In short, CS2 is a 10x multiplier of chakra, strength and speed, and Sage Mode is stated to be a superior version of the CS, and this makes Sage Mode at least a 10x multiplier in speed.

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

 

[KingTempest]

Well, I will now give an argument that I believe resolves the situation. I don't think a separate CRT for Cs is needed, so here we go.

Well, for starters, on this site the First Gate multiplier is accepted as a 5x speed boost. For better context, in others verses we accepted multipliers that are a PS with other declared multipliers (Example: The character was declared to be 3x stronger than before, and has feats that make him faster than another character that has a declared increase of 2x in speed, does this make the 3x satatement be consistent in the speed increase, and this gives him a 3x increase in speed) or we use the "logic" (Example: going from 50% to 100% strength is considered a 2x increase), so we can use the same situation in Naruto.

During the first round of the Chunin Exams, the Sound trio (Dosu, Zaku, and Kim) attack Team 7, and Lee intervenes in the battle and uses the First Gate against Dosu. At first, even by Dosu's surprise, Lee manages to be superior to him and hit him with a full attack, however, during the battle, Dosu balances the fight and manages to keep up with Lee until the moment he defeats him with sound attacks.

No the hell he doesn't.
Lee blitzed him and used the front lotus on him, then he was injured and depowered from his gate, just like against Gaara.
Front lotus hurts him. Because of that he was cringing all around.

When Sasuke wake up, he has CS1 active and massacres Zaku, Dosu himself couldn't see Sasuke moving either and praises his speed and was surprised with Sasuke being fast even carrying his friends. Dosu himself declares that he didn't have any chance against Sasuke, and apologizes and leaves in fear. It is worth remembering that his mission was to kill Sasuke, he ran because of the fear and not because a some order. The narrative puts Sasuke CS1 on the same level or above Lee with the first gate, and the feats corroborates with the narrative, so: Sasuke CS1 ≥ First Gate Lee > Lee with weights > Sasuke base. With that said, here's the logic:

What

-CS1 is the incomplete manifestation of CS, it's half of it (50%), and it's a speed multiplier with feats and narrative that makes it comparable or superior to a 5x multiplier.

Where did you find that it's half of it???

-CS2 is the full manifestation of CS, it's the maximum of it (100%), and is a speed multiplier superior than CS1, and is claimed to increase strength and chakra by 10x.

-If the CS2 is 100% and CS1 is 50%, this makes CS2 a 2x speed multiplier with a 2x increase above CS1, and CS1 has feats and narrative that puts it comparable or greater than a 5x speed multiplier. This makes CS2 a 10x speed multiplier, and is in agreement with 10x statement.

In short, CS2 is a 10x multiplier of chakra, strength and speed, and Sage Mode is stated to be a superior version of the CS, and this makes Sage Mode at least a 10x multiplier in speed.

Hell no.
Because CS2 is 10x CS1.
CS1 isn't "half" CS2. It's an entire amp under it.

Sage Mode is never stated to be superior to the Cursed Seal. There is never a comparison between them. They just share a source.

Quite literally your entire argument is headcanon.

 

[Samlex1234]

No the hell he doesn't.
Lee blitzed him and used the front lotus on him, then he was injured and depowered from his gate, just like against Gaara.
Front lotus hurts him. Because of that he was cringing all around.

What

Where did you find that it's half of it???

Hell no.
Because CS2 is 10x CS1.
CS1 isn't "half" CS2. It's an entire amp under it.

Sage Mode is never stated to be superior to the Cursed Seal. There is never a comparison between them. They just share a source.

Quite literally your entire argument is headcanon.

 

[KingTempest]

Sage Transformation ≠ Sage Mode

Sage Mode is the balancing of nature energy with the chakra in your body to create Senjutsu Chakra.

Sage Transformation is the manipulation of Senjutsu Chakra through unnatural exposure to nature energy

You cannot compare them

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No the hell he doesn't.
Lee blitzed him and used the front lotus on him, then he was injured and depowered from his gate, just like against Gaara.
Front lotus hurts him. Because of that he was cringing all around.

What

Where did you find that it's half of it???

Hell no.
Because CS2 is 10x CS1.
CS1 isn't "half" CS2. It's an entire amp under it.

Sage Mode is never stated to be superior to the Cursed Seal. There is never a comparison between them. They just share a source.

Quite literally your entire argument is headcanon.

I rlly don't think the CS2 being 10x of CS1 thing is very solid. It could be about Base or CS1, because "before" doesn't have to be about what's IMMEDIATELY before. Especially in Sakon's case, where he went from base to CS2 very quickly.

 

[KingTempest]

I rlly don't think the CS2 being 10x of CS1 thing is very solid. It could be about Base or CS1, because "before" doesn't have to be about what's IMMEDIATELY before. Especially in Sakon's case, where he went from base to CS2 very quickly.

What.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

What.

I forgot colored panels don't work Replaced now

 

[Godernet]

I’m back fantasy football and work have consumed my life I won’t touch on the chakra point for now since Tempest did make some valid points and I’d honestly need to reread a lot of early Naruto’s explanations of chakra. But did some say that a 5x speed increase is accepted for the 1st gate? Because if so shouldn’t Sage Mode should be superior than that 1st gate at least since sage mode was described by many including Shikaku and Kakashi to put Naruto on another level entirely from anyone in the leaf despite the fact that they should know Guys capablilties. And we’d have to be generous to put pre war arc base Naruto on the speed of Base Guy. I have more examples that make this more consistent but figured I’d just put this out there.

 

[GTsek]

No the hell he doesn't.
Lee blitzed him and used the front lotus on him, then he was injured and depowered from his gate, just like against Gaara.
Front lotus hurts him. Because of that he was cringing all around.

In this part you are right, Lee is fatigued by pain after using the lotus and that's why he was defeated, but he doesn't leave the first gate after the lotus, he feels a pain and is slow for a while, but after that he regains his speed and continues with the gate open, this happened in the fight with Gaara, and Sasuke's feats are still comparable to his. Sasuke also disappeared from Zaku and Dosu's sight. And Dosu praises Sasuke's speed, and is surprise that he can move so fast even carrying his friends. He ran away and said that he and his group wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke. Basically Sasuke's feats are similar to Lee's, and Sasuke also felt enormous tension and pain in his body when he used the seal, just like Lee after the lotus (Lee still had the gate open, but the pain limited him).

Sage Mode is never stated to be superior to the Cursed Seal. There is never a comparison between them. They just share a source.

There is, Kabuto mentions that Orochimaru didn't want the power of the Juugo clan, but to know the origin of that power, and then he found Ryuchi cave, and after that he wanted the power of Sage Mode, but he didn't have a strong body to support the Mode, which is why Kabuto says he surpassed Orochimaru after getting Sage Mode. Basically, the mark derives from Juugo's Sage Transformation, it's an imperfect form of it, and the origin of Juugo's clan power is linked to Sage Mode, and Orochimaru himself considered Sage Mode to be a superior version. There is literally a correlation between these abilities, including the curse mark increases physical characteristics by 10x because the Sage Chakra runs through the user's entire body, just like Sage Mode.

Where did you find that it's half of it???

It's a simple correlation, as with Juugo, the complete transformation is when he becomes a monster, in the case of CS, it's CS2, this makes CS1 an incomplete stage, and how Sasuke has feats that compare to the First Gate, this would give CS1 a 5x boost, so it would literally be 50% of the complete transformation (which is CS2).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why is 10x more chakra accepted to be a 10x amp to strength (like with Sakon and Jigen)? That's just as much an assumption as saying it's a 10x amp to speed, no?

 

[KingTempest]

In this part you are right, Lee is fatigued by pain after using the lotus and that's why he was defeated, but he doesn't leave the first gate after the lotus, he feels a pain and is slow for a while, but after that he regains his speed and continues with the gate open, this happened in the fight with Gaara, and Sasuke's feats are still comparable to his. Sasuke also disappeared from Zaku and Dosu's sight. And Dosu praises Sasuke's speed, and is surprise that he can move so fast even carrying his friends. He ran away and said that he and his group wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke. Basically Sasuke's feats are similar to Lee's, and Sasuke also felt enormous tension and pain in his body when he used the seal, just like Lee after the lotus (Lee still had the gate open, but the pain limited him).

No.

First of all, First Gate Lee was FTE to Dosu.
He was much slower after that, and they shat on him for being slower than sound.
He never got that speed back during that fight. Ever. They even asked where that speed was.

Also, 2 people blitzing 1 person doesn't mean that they're "comparable".
Someone MFTL+ and someone at lightning speed can both blitz a regular person. That doesn't make them comparable.

There is, Kabuto mentions that Orochimaru didn't want the power of the Juugo clan, but to know the origin of that power, and then he found Ryuchi cave, and after that he wanted the power of Sage Mode, but he didn't have a strong body to support the Mode, which is why Kabuto says he surpassed Orochimaru after getting Sage Mode. Basically, the mark derives from Juugo's Sage Transformation, it's an imperfect form of it, and the origin of Juugo's clan power is linked to Sage Mode, and Orochimaru himself considered Sage Mode to be a superior version. There is literally a correlation between these abilities, including the curse mark increases physical characteristics by 10x because the Sage Chakra runs through the user's entire body, just like Sage Mode.

Send me a scan where it says "Sage Mode is superior to Sage Transformation and Curse Marks".
The headcanon is ridiculous.

Orochimaru never said that it was superior at all. Not once did he say that.
He's a scientist. Scientifically it's smarter and better to research the source of an object if it's achievable than researching a bunch of secondary sources.
If you want research on water, the best place you'd go is an ocean, not a puddle.

The only comparison they have is that one is a temporary boost.
Kabuto didn't say "he wanted the origin cause it was stronger". He said that he wasn't interested in the rampages.

This isn't random headcanon like yours either. Orochimaru found out that it was senjutsu after he went to Ryuchi Cave. He didn't even know beforehand.
So your assumption of "he wanted Sage Mode, not Sage Transformation, so he went to Ryuchi Cave for it" was wrong, since he didn't even know the link before hand.

They are two completely different techniques. One is the balance of nature energy with your own chakra, one is a crazy reaction.

Stop trying to link them for a multiplier.

It's a simple correlation, as with Juugo, the complete transformation is when he becomes a monster, in the case of CS, it's CS2, this makes CS1 an incomplete stage, and how Sasuke has feats that compare to the First Gate, this would give CS1 a 5x boost, so it would literally be 50% of the complete transformation (which is CS2).

Again. No.

Blitzing someone doesn't make you comparable to someone else that blitzed them.
Sage Mode and Sage Transformation have no comparison in strength.

 

[Samlex1234]

Sage Transformation ≠ Sage Mode

Sage Mode is the balancing of nature energy with the chakra in your body to create Senjutsu Chakra.

Sage Transformation is the manipulation of Senjutsu Chakra through unnatural exposure to nature energy

You cannot compare them

Yes they are infact the same thing,
sage transformation is a way of attaining sage mode through using fluids from jugo clan.
hence why mitsuki has sage mode yet it was done by sage transformation
kabuto has sage mode yet it was done by sage transformation
even this wiki uses sage mode for kabuto and mitsuki yet it is called sage transformation


curse mark ~ sage transformation ~ sage mode

 

[KingTempest]

Yes they are infact the same thing,
sage transformation is a way of attaining sage mode through using fluids from jugo clan.
hence why mitsuki has sage mode yet it was done by sage transformation
kabuto has sage mode yet it was done by sage transformation
even this wiki uses sage mode for kabuto and mitsuki yet it is called sage transformation


curse mark ~ sage transformation ~ sage mode

I swear it's like yall read and don't at the same time.

Sage Mode is a method of using senjutsu with training and balance.
Sage Transformation is a method of using senjutsu without training and full of imbalance.
Cursed Marks are the usage of Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra.

They are tied together but when it comes to power, they are not the same.