Another sage mode multiplier thread (speed)

[ssgengar]

The only comparison they have is that one is a temporary boost.
Kabuto didn't say "he wanted the origin cause it was stronger". He said that he wasn't interested in the rampages.

“You took them from orochimaru’s curse mark?” so kabuto’s response is literally just referring to the curse mark

And obviously orochimaru isn’t gonna be interested in a major setback of sage transformation, which is why he focused on the power’s source

They are two completely different techniques. One is the balance of nature energy with your own chakra, one is a crazy reaction.

Stop trying to link them for a multiplier.

You’re trying to separate them when they both utilize senjutsu and come from the same exact place, no one’s “trying” to link them, there’s literally a relation

The difference in balance which allows for control is what sets them apart, if anything it points more toward the fact of ST being inferior because it’s been shown in other cases throughout the series that more control = more power

Sage Mode and Sage Transformation have no comparison in strength.

You’re right, because sage mode has been shown more than once to be stronger like here, here and here

Cursed Marks are the usage of Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra.

And fluids from jugo’s body, not sure why that’s being left out

 

[KingTempest]

“You took them from orochimaru’s curse mark?” so kabuto’s response is literally just referring to the curse mark

And obviously orochimaru isn’t gonna be interested in a major setback of sage transformation, which is why he focused on the power’s source

So you just ignored how I said that Orochimaru didn't even know it utilized senjutsu prior huh

You’re trying to separate them when they both utilize senjutsu and come from the same exact place, no one’s “trying” to link them, there’s literally a relation

Link them in power is what you're trying to do.
There is no strength comparison. Same source ≠ Same strength, or else the Heaven and Earth seals would be as strong as the other sound 4s seals.

The difference in balance which allows for control is what sets them apart, if anything it points more toward my point of ST being inferior because it’s been shown in other cases throughout the series that more control = more power

Ain't no way you sent scans of completely unrelated characters keeping their intelligence as "more control = more power" for sage mode.

You’re right, because sage mode has been shown more than once to be stronger like here, here and here

You didn't even send a single antifeat for Sage Transformation.

And fluids from jugo’s body, not sure why that’s being left out

Oh so now there's a difference.

 

[ssgengar]

So you just ignored how I said that Orochimaru didn't even know it utilized senjutsu prior huh

Nah I didn’t mean to ignore it, my response is just to the comments I replied to

I also don’t see how this applies to my point, because you said that in response to somebody else’s take

Link them in power is what you're trying to do.
There is no strength comparison. Same source ≠ Same strength, or else the Heaven and Earth seals would be as strong as the other sound 4s seals.

I already addressed the comparison

And maybe I’m misunderstanding this last part, but if you mean literal strength then we know already curse marks affect stats differently than one another, other than that stronger marks displayed more advanced body manipulation

Ain't no way you sent scans of completely unrelated characters keeping their intelligence as "more control = more power" for sage mode.

Again this is just to prove that there is logical support, uncontrollable = lack of intelligence which = less power, it’s been shown

You didn't even send a single antifeat for Sage Transformation.

Respectfully, why don’t you? After all it’s your argument. Though I’m trying to think of possible anti feats, do you have one in mind?

Oh so now there's a difference.

Not sure what you’re getting at here, just pointing out that you left out jugo’s contribution to curse marks

 

[KingTempest]

I already addressed the comparison

In a flawed way

And maybe I’m misunderstanding this last part, but if you mean literal strength then we know already curse marks affect stats differently than one another, other than that stronger marks displayed more advanced body manipulation

Again this is just to prove that there is logical support, uncontrollable = lack of intelligence which = less power, it’s been shown

It's been assumed with 1 character, same character who thought all bijuu without hosts were idiots, and he's wrong.
Uncontrollable rage being weaker than controlled rage is not proven.
Naruto with 8 tails was stronger than KCM since KCM said that 8 tails could break out of the CT and KCM couldn't. Guess which one was in control.

Respectfully, why don’t you? After all it’s your argument. Though I’m trying to think of possible anti feats, do you have one in mind?

That isn't my argument.

The argument is that they have no link when it comes to strength.

I don't need to send antifeats of power when my argument is that "beyond them sharing a source, they have no statements of comparison"

Not sure what you’re getting at here, just pointing out that you left out jugo’s contribution to curse marks

You added that there was a difference and that the curse mark has a specific mechanic different than regular sage mode and sage transformation

 

[ssgengar]

I understand your point better now, Just left home so i’ll give my responses later when I get back

 

[Samlex1234]

I swear it's like yall read and don't at the same time.

Sage Mode is a method of using senjutsu with training and balance.
Sage Transformation is a method of using senjutsu without training and full of imbalance.
Cursed Marks are the usage of Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra.

They are tied together but when it comes to power, they are not the same.

Oh good this is all I need . The point is about them being relative in power and sage mode Being the superior version of the three as it is the complete version and a perfect version
the argument is that if curse mark is 10 charkra it makes no sense for sage mode which is a superior version be less than 10.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Naruto with 8 tails was stronger than KCM since KCM said that 8 tails could break out of the CT and KCM couldn't. Guess which one was in control.

The difference being a half dead Nagato cannot be compared to Edo Nagato. This logic of yours works in the reverse, meaning KCM failing to do what 8 Tails Kurama did is a clear indication of a power cliff.

 

[KingTempest]

The difference being a half dead Nagato cannot be compared to Edo Nagato. This logic of yours works in the reverse, meaning KCM failing to do what 8 Tails Kurama did is a clear indication of a power cliff.

KCM based the strength of the CT on half dead Nagato's and he said "I can't do it. Only reason why I could before was cause 9 tails took control".

He flat out confirmed he's weaker.

Oh good this is all I need . The point is about them being relative in power and sage mode Being the superior version of the three as it is the complete version and a perfect version
the argument is that if curse mark is 10 charkra it makes no sense for sage mode which is a superior version be less than 10.

Adult Naruto can make a half completed rasengan and kid Naruto can make a fully complete rasengan.
Is Kid Naruto's rasengan now stronger?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

KCM based the strength of the CT on half dead Nagato's and he said "I can't do it. Only reason why I could before was cause 9 tails took control".

He flat out confirmed he's weaker.

Adult Naruto can make a half completed rasengan and kid Naruto can make a fully complete rasengan.
Is Kid Naruto's rasengan now stronger?

Difference with both examples is that there's a huge chakra difference there. Meanwhile, with Sage transformation and Sage mode they should be somewhat similar amounts, just with different levels of proficiency. If Jugo had massively greater nature energy, he would just turn into a statue.

 

[Samlex1234]

KCM based the strength of the CT on half dead Nagato's and he said "I can't do it. Only reason why I could before was cause 9 tails took control".

He flat out confirmed he's weaker.

Adult Naruto can make a half completed rasengan and kid Naruto can make a fully complete rasengan.
Is Kid Naruto's rasengan now stronger?

what is this argument Tempest? are you saying curse mark is adult naruto and sage mode is kid naruto. This makes ………..
curse mark is a weaker form and not complete form of sage mode
hence why kabuto said orochimaru could not become a perfect sage.
so what is this comparison with naruto rasengan?
also I already explained how sage transformation ~ sage mode and gave various examples. If you disagree no problem but stop dragging this out .

 

[Samlex1234]

Difference with both examples is that there's a huge chakra difference there. Meanwhile, with Sage transformation and Sage mode they should be somewhat similar amounts, just with different levels of proficiency. If Jugo had massively greater nature energy, he would just turn into a statue.

Honestly. This should be a straightforward upgrade yet it is being dragged out for nothing with various scenarios that don’t match.

 

[KingTempest]

Difference with both examples is that there's a huge chakra difference there. Meanwhile, with Sage transformation and Sage mode they should be somewhat similar amounts, just with different levels of proficiency. If Jugo had massively greater nature energy, he would just turn into a statue.

One of them is a transformation based on balance of chakra and another one is enzymes mixing with nature energy and producing a weird reaction.
Big difference.

curse mark is a weaker form and not complete form of sage mode
hence why kabuto said orochimaru could not become a perfect sage.

So first
"curse mark ~ sage transformation ~ sage mode"
Now
"Curse Mark is a weaker form."
Make up your mind.

Honestly. This should be a straightforward upgrade yet it is being dragged out for nothing with various scenarios that don’t match.

It should've been shat on after the fake gate scaling was deleted.

An AP multiplier shouldn't be an equal speed multiplier without a statement, and from what I see there is no statement

 

[Samlex1234]

One of them is a transformation based on balance of chakra and another one is enzymes mixing with nature energy and producing a weird reaction.
Big difference.

So first
"curse mark ~ sage transformation ~ sage mode"
Now
"Curse Mark is a weaker form."
Make up your mind.

It should've been shat on after the fake gate scaling was deleted.

An AP multiplier shouldn't be an equal speed multiplier without a statement, and from what I see there is no statement

Tempest
1. They are people that achieved perfect sage mode they are > than people that didn’t
Eg orochimaru with the curse mark didn’t achieve perfect sage mode
kabuto achieved perfect sage mode
naruto is a perfect sage and jiraya is not.
so yes of this form curse mark is weaker than sage mode because it is not perfect.
if you see the op thread it says perfect sage mode user should get 10x muitipler

2. No not just an Ap this is a different scenario this is about 10x charkra equal 10x speed . Most especially with sage mode that spreads the chakra equally for ninjutsu, genjustu and taijustu. Don’t change the topic.

momoshiki ate kinshiki charkra gets 2 times stronger and faster accepted on the wiki

jigen 10 percent chrakra was stated to be 10 percent power

kaguya get more chrakra and grew stronger and faster immediately

naruto already accepted on this wiki with half charkra being at half speed and strength and with full charkra being at full power.


10 times charkra means 10 times stronger and faster
if you basically use 30 percent of stamina for speed and strength adding 10 times more charkra makes You ten times faster and stronger . Easy and simple.

 

[ssgengar]

In a flawed way

Can you elaborate?

response to scan cause I can’t tag it for some reason
- “Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident, the truth of why they were carved into Kimimaro and Sasuke is to draw out their excess "power".” this is telling us 1. That first of all the actual superiority over other seals isn’t even evident and 2. That the seals purpose is to draw out the hosts excess power and that the reason sasuke and kimimaro received them was so that their power can be drawn out, we know this because it specifically says it’s the truth of why they received them

It's been assumed with 1 character, same character who thought all bijuu without hosts were idiots, and he's wrong.
Uncontrollable rage being weaker than controlled rage is not proven.
Naruto with 8 tails was stronger than KCM since KCM said that 8 tails could break out of the CT and KCM couldn't. Guess which one was in control.

It was stated by 2 characters, and is supported by juubito easily breaking out of the same sage art seal that overpowered ten tails

That isn't my argument.

The argument is that they have no link when it comes to strength.

I don't need to send antifeats of power when my argument is that "beyond them sharing a source, they have no statements of comparison"

You keep acting like there’s no support for this, while both users become activated through senjutsu, even the narrative makes it clear that perfected sage mode is on another level

an example of this would be kabuto’s situation where, yeah going to ryuchi cave exposes him to senjutsu, but he goes a step further to train under the white snake sage to actually achieve perfect sagehood

You added that there was a difference and that the curse mark has a specific mechanic different than regular sage mode and sage transformation

Oh yeah in the sense that it doesn’t blanket multiple stats

 

[KingTempest]

Here's what I'll do.

I personally don't give a **** about the sage mode curse mark shit

2. No not just an Ap this is a different scenario this is about 10x charkra equal 10x speed . Most especially with sage mode that spreads the chakra equally for ninjutsu, genjustu and taijustu. Don’t change the topic.

Send me where speed is amped to an equal degree as strength. I don't wanna hear "taijutsu", I want speed.

momoshiki ate kinshiki charkra gets 2 times stronger and faster accepted on the wiki

No. 2x faster is not accepted. Now you're just talking out of your ass.

jigen 10 percent chrakra was stated to be 10 percent power

Power. Keep going.

kaguya get more chrakra and grew stronger and faster immediately

Did it give a linear boost? No.

naruto already accepted on this wiki with half charkra being at half speed and strength and with full charkra being at full power.

This is not accepted.

10 times charkra means 10 times stronger and faster
if you basically use 30 percent of stamina for speed and strength adding 10 times more charkra makes You ten times faster and stronger . Easy and simple.

No.

Your whole argument is bullshit headcanon and lies.

 

[KingTempest]

Idgaf anymore

Yall won't send me a scan of speed being multiplied on the same extent and obviously none of you won't

So consider me out of this thread

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Idgaf anymore

Yall won't send me a scan of speed being multiplied on the same extent and obviously none of you won't

So consider me out of this thread

You're right, because we won't. There is no direct statement as far as I know. But I still don't see why 10x chakra is accepted as a 10x strength difference and not a 10x speed difference. All the arguments for chakra not linearly amping speed can be applied to strength, but the wiki accepts strength for some reason.

 

[KingTempest]

You're right, because we won't. There is no direct statement as far as I know. But I still don't see why 10x chakra is accepted as a 10x strength difference and not a 10x speed difference. All the arguments for chakra not linearly amping speed can be applied to strength, but the wiki accepts strength for some reason.

Because repeatedly the 10x chakra statements have statements of amping strength to the same degree.

Stop trying to compare them

 

[ssgengar]

Idgaf anymore

Yall won't send me a scan of speed being multiplied on the same extent and obviously none of you won't

So consider me out of this thread

You can refer to his feats against the edo raikage, who demonstrated relative/faster speeds and reflexes than kcm1. this was speed as well as reflexes because he stated that he also needed to move fast to counter successfully without getting tagged, and he differentiated it from his danger sensing

Kabuto got much faster as he could take on edo itachi who matched kcm1 naruto, mind you kcm1 naruto’s speed was compared to minato’s flying raijin by 3 different people

mitsuki also showed a noticeable speed difference against orochimaru and log through sage transformation, and koji went from matching a weakened jigen to matching a fully transformed isshiki

 

[Godernet]

Send me where speed is amped to an equal degree as strength. I don't wanna hear "taijutsu", I want speed.

Isn't the First Gate accepted to be a 5x strength and Speed increase? From what's basically a release of physical and mental restrictions or rather a Chakra boost.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Because repeatedly the 10x chakra statements have statements of amping strength to the same degree.

Stop trying to compare them

The curse mark has that. Does Jigen? Or Adult Naruto? Also even if the word strength is used in regards to those people, strength does not just mean AP, it means overall ability.

 

[AguilaR202]

Not always. The juubi has many times more chakra then the shinobi alliance yet people can still react to it. Kaguya had many times more chakra than team 7 and obito yet they still could react to her. So that just proves all their chakra reserves aren't bening converted into stats equally

Obito had more chakra than bsm Naruto and ems sasuke yet they could keep up with him

A larger characters speed is offset by its enormous size because they have to cover more distance to connect their attacks.

 

[Samlex1234]

Here's what I'll do.

I personally don't give a **** about the sage mode curse mark shit

Send me where speed is amped to an equal degree as strength. I don't wanna hear "taijutsu", I want speed.

No. 2x faster is not accepted. Now you're just talking out of your ass.

Power. Keep going.

Did it give a linear boost? No.

This is not accepted.

No.

Your whole argument is bullshit headcanon and lies.

Lol the 2 times faster is not accepted because a speed revision as not being done arc only did for ap for now, garra and the other kages will get at least ftl from their feat which they don’t have now.

Taijustu involve speed.

yes naruto being half charkra was accepted as half power, in the last thread hence Planet level (While weakened to half power, he fought against Fused Momoshiki),

im not a liar you are the one that keep ignoring arguments.

 

[Nierre]

interesting interesting

 

[Samlex1234]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

Reio35 and KingTempest disagreeing with every single Naruto upgrade FRA

 

[Samlex1234]

Reio35 and KingTempest disagreeing with every single Naruto upgrade FRA

Bruh. thank you for acknowledging this. We cant catch a break.

 

[KingTempest]

Reio35 and KingTempest disagreeing with every single Naruto upgrade FRA

As if I haven't upgraded this verse a shitton of times

I just don't blindly let anything go through

 

[Deceived3596]

As if I haven't upgraded this verse a shitton of times

I just don't blindly let anything go through

Cope, Mald and Seethe.

You should be more like Speedster.

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Speedster is the most devoted person on this site. We need more people like him but for naruto fr

 

[ssgengar]

Reio35 and KingTempest disagreeing with every single Naruto upgrade FRA

Mind me asking what your opinion on this crt is?

 

[ssgengar]

Bump

 

[Samlex1234]

Following

What do you think now man?

 

[KingTempest]

I still fail to see a "speed is multiplied by 10x" statement

 

[Samlex1234]

I still fail to see a "speed is multiplied by 10x" statement

Tempest we have provided evidence for that , you keep ignoring, you already disagreed anyway which is no problem and I’m not looking to convince you because you obviously don’t want to be convinced. Let’s get the opinion of other mods.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I still fail to see a "speed is multiplied by 10x" statement

I fail to see a speed multiplied by 5x statement for the Gates.

 

[KingTempest]

Tempest we have provided evidence for that , you keep ignoring, you already disagreed anyway which is no problem and I’m not looking to convince you because you obviously don’t want to be convinced. Let’s get the opinion of other mods.

No you haven't.
You provided evidence there's a speed amp. You haven't provided evidence that there's an equal speed to AP 1:1 ratio except "taijutsu's amplified".

"Lets get the opinion of other mods". You're literally going against wiki standards where you even @tted Mitch who said the same thing.

You have Damage, Mitch, me, and Tracer disagreeing, with only a shaky agreeal from Griffin.

I will go and call other staff to come and evaluate this thread for you, but I see nothing other than "this doesn't follow our standards so I disagree" or "Idk, maybe, I agree", like Griffin's.

I fail to see a speed multiplied by 5x statement for the Gates.

Let me teach you something called "relevance".

The gates have nothing to do with the sage mode multiplier.

And a speed multiplier is implied and proven here.

If you have an issue with the gates then go talk about it somewhere else.

 

[Samlex1234]

No you haven't.
You provided evidence there's a speed amp. You haven't provided evidence that there's an equal speed to AP 1:1 ratio except "taijutsu's amplified".

"Lets get the opinion of other mods". You're literally going against wiki standards where you even @tted Mitch who said the same thing.

You have Damage, Mitch, me, and Tracer disagreeing, with only a shaky agreeal from Griffin.

I will go and call other staff to come and evaluate this thread for you, but I see nothing other than "this doesn't follow our standards so I disagree" or "Idk, maybe, I agree", like Griffin's.

Let me teach you something called "relevance".

The gates have nothing to do with the sage mode multiplier.

And a speed multiplier is implied and proven here.

If you have an issue with the gates then go talk about it somewhere else.

I will not waste my time to argue with you, damage, tracer and Mitch has not replied to any of the counters while you decide to just disagreEd.

 

[KingTempest]

Lmao

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Let me teach you something called "relevance".

The gates have nothing to do with the sage mode multiplier.

No, it really does. Both of those are multipliers of strength that also significantly amp speed.

And a speed multiplier is implied and proven here.

The format of that CRT is essentially the same as this one. There's evidence of a 5x multiplier, and there's evidence that the Gates amp speed a lot. But it's never explicitly stated that the 5x amp applies to speed. Just that the STRENGTH of your muscles is amped by 5x. It's even stated there that the 1st Gate gives you access to all of your chakra, meaning the amp from strength and speed comes from the increase in your chakra, just like with SM. And you said it yourself, more chakra doesn't mean a linear increase to speed right?

If you have an issue with the gates then go talk about it somewhere else.

I don't, I agree with it, but the same logic for that should apply to SM.