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- #121
Hm so what’s your stance on my 3rd reply in the last statement then?
No worries I’ll check it out when I get the chance
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Another sage mode multiplier thread (speed)
- Thread starter ssgengar
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I don't see anything that goes against my position. He can get reap the benefits of the 10x amp immediately on going SM however that does not imply that the 10x amp was brought forth because he entered SM.
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- #123
Do you have any support of this? I understand your argument, but honestly right now the focus here is just that the multiplier applies to him which you seem to agree with in your own way
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I do agree with you. My argument is based on the process of elimination. Like, if your explanations of those feats of relativity weren't there, my explanation would make the most sense. And it isn't far-fetched either. CES and Shunshin are the same thing. They pour a lot of chakra to enhance their stats. Even Sasuke comments that Deidara is slow when the guy was near chakra exhaustion, implicating that Deidara no longer had enough chakra to enhance his stats.
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I agree with the OP.
Maybe the scene with Pain is easy to explain. We have two scenes, one where Pain attacks and Base Naruto blocks, and another where Sage Naruto attacks and Pain blocks. I don't think there is any problem here as the situation can be resolved:
-Pain didn't have enough attack speed to surpass Base Naruto's reaction speed, and Sage Naruto didn't have enough attack speed to surpass Pain's reaction speed. As we know, the character's reaction speed can be several times above his combat speed or travel speed, so I don't see any errors here.
Maybe the scene with Pain is easy to explain. We have two scenes, one where Pain attacks and Base Naruto blocks, and another where Sage Naruto attacks and Pain blocks. I don't think there is any problem here as the situation can be resolved:
-Pain didn't have enough attack speed to surpass Base Naruto's reaction speed, and Sage Naruto didn't have enough attack speed to surpass Pain's reaction speed. As we know, the character's reaction speed can be several times above his combat speed or travel speed, so I don't see any errors here.
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-CS2 is declared as a 10x force multiplier
-It is also stated that the character's chakra increases by 10x
The attributes of these characters get stronger, including speed
-So, we came to the conclusion that an increase in chakra by X value increases physical attributes by X value as well.
-Jirobo's CS2 has a parallel with Chouji's Butterfly Mode, where it is said to increase all of his physical stats by 100x.
-Basically when Jirobo says he's 10x stronger he's referring to all stats because when chouji says he's 100x stronger we know it's all stats thanks to other information.
-Sage Mode is declared to be a superior version of CS, so it has a multiplier at least the same value as CS.
MinatoSparkle
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bump
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No
At the end of the day, a billion loopholes will never settle the fact that no statement of speed being amped by 10 means that this upgrade flat out isn't gonna happen
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Wow this is not even fair. We already provided a lot of explanation on how charkra works which you obviously didn’t know when you stated and I quote “If they have 0 chakra are they now immobile”, you didn’t even admit you were wrong , you just ignored all our arguments and said no this is never going to happen. Wow.
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What billion loopholes? The purpose of this CRT was to address those said loopholes, and you never counterEd them really.
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There's just not enough evidence for it. There is no ten times speed multiplier gap in the Pain fight between base Naruto and Sage Mode Naruto.
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- #132
The pain fight was already addressed damage. We even saw the difference in speed and reactions while fighting ay, KCM1 is already a noticeable amp but it took sage mode to tag him too fast for him to dodge
We’ve went over sage chakra’s effect on the user’s physicals (which lordgriffin agreed with), we’ve compared it to the inferior CM and why it applies to multiple stats (which the narrative supports by showing clear superiority and physical boosts) compare it to the results of CM 10x amps and for both we see noticeable differences in stats which is required for a multiplier being given
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So damage you are telling me that despite the overwhelming evidence we have provided for sage mode being that much of a multipler, the only problem you could bring up was pain matching naruto with one hand combo just once while coming from afar. When we already explained how pain was holding back against naruto as his goal was to capture naruto alive and not to kill him due to the fact he was trying to extract the nine tails, even in that same fight we saw how sage mode naruto casually blitz the first pain that attacked When the six pains were still intact. But when there power drop because sage mode naruto defeatEd them base naruto was able to briefly match tendo pain that is holding back. Same pain later blantly showed his superiority to base naruto.
But honestly even after all this if you want to disagree you are free to disagree it Is your right.
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I want to add that Sage Mode is similar to opening the Gates in the sense that Rock Lee and Guy get faster by using all of the chakra that is internally generated in their body which they had but couldn’t use prior to opening the Gates. Sage Mode adds Nature Energy to the already internally generated chakra and results in a more powerful chakra.
MinatoSparkle
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I'm just gonna leave these here again
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Cause I'm not wrong lol, people can run out of chakra and move.
And your arguments are ignored because once again, they're loopholes that aren't accepted. You said "speed is increased, so it should be increased by 10 because chakra and strength is increased by 10".
Our multiplier page says this
And you're completely ignoring it for "their speed is higher, so it should be 10x"
Until you send a scan of speed getting multiplied by 10, then it's not going up by 10
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Honestly at this point
yes and I’m not wrong with the explanation I gave, sage mode is a charkra that boost all stats, and the curse marks proves it is a minimum of 10. Remember they must be perfect balance.
taijustu is getting muitipled by 10 and again taijustu inclures physical abilities which includes speed. We have also proved that power in this case referred to all stats . So yes the power is boosted by 10.
you are wrong and you still fail to admit zero chakra means death. Hence why isshiki died, hence why kurama died. There is even a scan that say zero chrakra means death.
yes and I’m not wrong with the explanation I gave, sage mode is a charkra that boost all stats, and the curse marks proves it is a minimum of 10. Remember they must be perfect balance.
taijustu is getting muitipled by 10 and again taijustu inclures physical abilities which includes speed. We have also proved that power in this case referred to all stats . So yes the power is boosted by 10.
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To add to this. Paa literally mentions adding Nature Energy to internally generated chakra. To even access that chakra, the opening of the gates is required. And we already accept that the Gates multiply the speed by simply accessing all of the users's already existing chakra.
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- #139
It’s literally superior to a mode that offers 10x. It spreads all across the board via sage chakra (which is the difference), activating the entire body. So if it’s a factual statement that the entire body is being activated, and that an equal input of multiple energies (including physical) is what makes this possible, then you’d have to point out evidence that certain stats are being prioritized over speed. The amps are just as if not more noticeable than CM’s
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Oh this is interesting
Godernet
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correct me if I am wrong if you have an example but hasn’t if been said many times in the series that if you completely run out of chakra you just die. I’ve always viewed people saying they are out of chakra as them saying they have so little that they don’t have any left to infuse into anything useful, and if they truly had 0 they would be immobile/dead.
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- #142
Yeah peep the scan Lex showed above
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I don’t normally comment on this kind of topics but I mean, clearly this seems like intentional ignorance. He proved the amp was at least 10x since an inferior and much weaker version of the ability provided a 10x amp in all stats.
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- #144
It’s more so that’s it’s superior to CM and instead of affecting a singular or prioritized stat, it blankets the user via sage chakra which activates the entire user but yeah
edit: my mistake if you were referring to sage transformation rather than curse mark
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Sage Transformation isn't accepted to provide a 10x amp to all stats as far as I'm aware.
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even in this picture we understand that kyubi died because all his chakra finished . But the fact that he doubled down even after being wrong is the wrong thing here. If he just doesn’t agree then no problem, but not after we provided all this evidence and they just ignore it or double down on non factual argument.
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Damage did you read any of the arguments at all. At this point I feel like we are going in circles.
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- #148
Sage transformation was addressed in the op
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I know. I'm saying the argument is "Sage Mode is a 10x amp in speed because the inferior Sage Transformation is a 10x amp in speed" but the Sage Transformation argument hasn't been accepted anyway...
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- #150
Well yeah man the thread is still ongoing and the st argument is only a part of it, what are your thoughts on the whole chakra/physicals stuff that’s been discussed? Because st ~ sm isn’t the only argument
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No that is not the argument. The argument is that sage transformation is relative to sage mode in fact it is pretty much the same thing. And sage mode is said to amp all stats genjustu, ninjutsu and taijustu and we also proved it is a minimum of ten since sage mode also known as sage transformation is > curse mark which improves stat by 10. Sage mode creates a balance and makes sure every stats are amped.
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Sage mode is not inferior to to sage transformation. Sage mode is sage transformation.
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- #154
While speed is the focus, should it be accepted it would apply to physicals in general given the benefits of sage chakra, so yes
what’s your overall take on the proposal though? Gonna add the agree/disagree section pretty soon
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- #156
Fair enough
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I know, I know that the examples I cited are useless in the face of your personal interpretation. Which is clearly partial.
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I made an argument about this in the upgrade post. And yet, it would just be one scene against several others. Like Naruto react to 3rd Raikage, and managing to react to Madara. And there's also Kashin Kojin keeping up with Isshiki even with difficulties.
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-There is a gap between the base Naruto and Raikage
-There is a gap between the base Naruto and the
-There is a gap between base Kashin Koji and Isshiki
And the Sage Mode manages to fill this gap to the point where there is even a minimal reaction, it is clear that the speed increase is high.
-There is a gap between the base Naruto and the
-There is a gap between base Kashin Koji and Isshiki
And the Sage Mode manages to fill this gap to the point where there is even a minimal reaction, it is clear that the speed increase is high.
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This does not apply here.
The CS2 multiplier (and any other chakra mode) is just a massive amount of chakra being spread throughout all the tenketsu in the body. It is shown in Neji's fight that when Kidomaru releases CS, all the tenketsu in his body are filled with chakra (which obviously also happens with CS2, but the amount is much higher.) The chakra is released throughout the body, and with that the character is 10x stronger, it makes no sense just his AP to be improved by 10x because this chakra is "running" and filling the whole body.
And we have 2 examples in the series that when a character is mentioned X times stronger, it means that he is faster in the same proportion. In the Databook and Boruto's Anime is mentioned that all of the chouji's body attributes are increased in butterfly mode. And the retsuden novel mentions that the Kido got orders of magnitude stronger, and it's also said that he got faster by the same proportion. Getting stronger through a chakra mode means the character also got faster in same proportion. The functioning of the chakra and the examples point to this, you are left acting as if we have just an isolated statement, and it is not the case.
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