Another sage mode multiplier thread (speed)

[Panache_x]

Yes, this is my point exactly

If cm derives from sage transformation, whos origin is sage mode then it’s amp value wouldn’t be higher than it’s superior stages. The narrative makes it very clear that it’s watered down in comparison

Yh yh I saw
Got no personal problems with em
CM = 10x amp abilities
ST = 10x amp stats via Transforming
SM = 10x+ amp stats (A better version of ST)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Maybe not 10x more potent, but 10x greater in terms of total joules of energy outputted.

That's... 10x more potent.

 

[ssgengar]

10x larger =/= 10x more powerful

If a sage amped flame bomb is 10x larger than the original then its size and power are worth 10 of the base flame bombs, so in this situation it qualifies for the multiplier

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If a sage amped flame bomb is 10x larger than the original then its size and power are worth 10 of the base flame bombs, so in this situation it qualifies for the multiplier

That's not how fire, energy, or any sort of metric works.

 

[ssgengar]

That's not how fire, energy, or any sort of metric works.

If it’s 10x larger, you could split it into 10 separate ones and you’d literally have 10 normal sized flame bombs

are you saying more flame is being added without increasing damage?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If it’s 10x larger, you could split it into 10 separate ones and you’d literally have 10 normal sized flame bombs

are you saying more flame is being added without increasing damage?

The size doesn't relate to the power output. It's as simple as that.

 

[ssgengar]

The size doesn't relate to the power output. It's as simple as that.

How so? It’s not like the additional flames would be weaker

what part of my response is flawed

 

[Sus]

A candle is 1.75x hotter than forest fires btw
I don't see how larger fire = stronger when its quite the opposite in reality

 

[GodlyCharmander]

How so? It’s not like the additional flames would be weaker

It is. It depends.

 

[ssgengar]

A candle is 1.75x hotter than forest fires btw
I don't see how larger fire = stronger when its quite the opposite in reality

If you look up why you can see that candle light comes from combustion (from wax) so it’s not just standard fire

actually if anything sage flame bombs act in a similar fashion by also amping flames with another factor, oil made by sage chakra

It is. It depends.

If it depends on the situation, what about this situation leads you to believe the sage infused flames are weaker?

check the databook scan goku posted. Under normal flame bombs it says “if the fireballs are shot after the enemy is first smeared with toad oil bombs, the jutsu is fully capable of killing.” They get stronger with oil, and sage flame bombs utilize oil

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If you look up why you can see that candle light comes from combustion (from wax) so it’s not just standard fire

actually if anything sage flame bombs act in a similar fashion by also amping flames with another factor, oil made by sage chakra


If it depends on the situation, what about this situation leads you to believe the sage infused flames are weaker?

check the databook scan goku posted. Under normal flame bombs it says “if the fireballs are shot after the enemy is first smeared with toad oil bombs, the jutsu is fully capable of killing.” They get stronger with oil, and sage flame bombs utilize oil

10x Larger =/= 10x more intense. The flame is just spread through a more wide range. A flame 10x larger can be just as intense as a smaller one.

 

[ssgengar]

10x Larger =/= 10x more intense. The flame is just spread through a more wide range. A flame 10x larger can be just as intense as a smaller one.

I feel like you just ignored my whole response

We’re talking about more than just the size difference, like I said adding the factor of toad oil makes the flames more lethal, it says it in the scan

 

[RanaProGamer]

I've brought this up before, but probably the most direct evidence for SM being a >10x boost is that it made Jiraiya's Flame Bombs more than 10x larger, with nothing apparently changing about the jutsu besides the addition of senjutsu.

There's no indication that SM buffs ninjutsu more than any other facet of combat ability, and if anything it's implied to be an equal all around boost, so this should at least apply to striking strength and durability, if not speed as well.

Pa actually states that Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Taijutsu all receive a power boost here

 

[Romeu08]

I've brought this up before, but probably the most direct evidence for SM being a >10x boost is that it made Jiraiya's Flame Bombs more than 10x larger, with nothing apparently changing about the jutsu besides the addition of senjutsu.

There's no indication that SM buffs ninjutsu more than any other facet of combat ability, and if anything it's implied to be an equal all around boost, so this should at least apply to striking strength and durability, if not speed as well.

Nothing implies the size being bigger comes from sage mode, its just another technique he can use

 

[ssgengar]

Nothing implies the size being bigger comes from sage mode, its just another technique he can use

Then why doesn’t he use it in base?

the difference between sage flame bombs and standard ones is that sage chakra is used

 

[Romeu08]

Then why doesn’t he use it in base?

the difference between sage flame bombs and standard ones is that sage chakra is used

Because he just did not use it? Nothing implies the size just came from sage chakra, there are many reasons as for why he did not use it before and unless there is a direct statement it was sage chakra that made it 10x it is just headcannon

 

[ssgengar]

Because he just did not use it? Nothing implies the size just came from sage chakra, there are many reasons as for why he did not use it before and unless there is a direct statement it was sage chakra that made it 10x it is just headcannon

This is literally just an assumption, and it’s not even the argument. We know it’s 10x larger, we also know what keeps the flames from being weaker is the fact that it’s infused with sage chakra

So right now I’m not arguing why it’s 10x larger. He only does it in sage mode, it’s databook scan clearly states it’s the product of fire style jutsu + sage jutsu chakra infusion. And it’s because of this sage chakra that the flames increase lethality, this is also stated in the scan.

In other words I’m saying it’s size amp translates to power for the reasons above

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's... 10x more potent.

Take a Bijuudama calc for example. Regardless of the size of the explosion, the concentration per cubic meter stays the same, the thing that increases or decreases the result is how large the effect is.

Nothing implies the size being bigger comes from sage mode, its just another technique he can use

Well for one thing, at the top it lists Giant Flame Bombs as a ninjutsu and sage jutsu, and it's stated the oil to ignite the technique is created from sage jutsu chakra. Seems pretty clear the only difference is that the stronger version uses senjutsu.

 

[Panache_x]

Because he just did not use it? Nothing implies the size just came from sage chakra, there are many reasons as for why he did not use it before and unless there is a direct statement it was sage chakra that made it 10x it is just headcannon

This guy has to be joking at this point

Anyways I've not seen any further opposition to @ssgengar Ideology of CM amping Abilities while the Transformation amping all stats due to the fact that the character physically undergo a change throughout the body and then SM being a better version of that hence has at least 10x amp to stats aswell
He brought a 10x amp ability scan for support, and no matter how y'all try to twist that folks, it Contextually translates to the 10x amp he's logically proposing

Wouldn't want this thread to get abadoned without further opposition or agreement

 

[ssgengar]

This guy has to be joking at this point

Anyways I've not seen any further opposition to @ssgengar Ideology of CM amping Abilities while the Transformation amping all stats due to the fact that the character physically undergo a change throughout the body and then SM being a better version of that hence has at least 10x amp to stats aswell
He brought a 10x amp ability scan for support, and no matter how y'all try to twist that folks, it Contextually translates to the 10x amp he's logically proposing

Wouldn't want this thread to get abadoned without further opposition or agreement

I’ll bump after some time if needed

 

[Tomboy11]

The size doesn't relate to the power output. It's as simple as that.

Don't bigger flames generate more energy and more heat?

 

[Tomboy11]

Well if we are going with 10x more powerful chakra amping your stats via transformation, I would say it makes sense that they are
getting 10x faster from having 10x the potent chakra amping all their stats, if I remember Naruto stated himself the more chakra he puts in his body the faster he gets

So if sage mode is amping Naruto by 10x all round, his speed should also get a 10x amp
Similar to how the gates amps are accepted on the site

 

[Testarossa002]

Second example is kabuto going from MHS+ to sub rel after achieving perfect sage mode, which again supports a 10x speed increase

Seeing as Kabuto went from being shat on by a roar from 3T naruto in base to contending fairly okay against the Uchiha brothers in Sage mode, I'll say the amp is quite noticeable
He could casually evade sasuke's susanoo arrow that was too fast for kakashi to physically evade

 

[Damage3245]

Seeing as Kabuto went from being shat on by a roar from 3T naruto in base to contending fairly okay against the Uchiha brothers in Sage mode, I'll say the amp is quite noticeable
He could casually evade sasuke's susanoo arrow that was too fast for kakashi to physically evade

There is a lot of time between Kabuto who fought 3-Tailed Naruto and Kabuto who fought the Uchiha brothers.

 

[Tomboy11]

There is a lot of time between Kabuto who fought 3-Tailed Naruto and Kabuto who fought the Uchiha brothers.

Kabuto himself stated he only got that Strong from getting sage mode tho !
No training just getting orochimaru cells to achieve sage mode after

 

[Tomboy11]

Seeing as Kabuto went from being shat on by a roar from 3T naruto in base to contending fairly okay against the Uchiha brothers in Sage mode, I'll say the amp is quite noticeable
He could casually evade sasuke's susanoo arrow that was too fast for kakashi to physically evade

Base Naruto went from being fodder to 3 tome sasuke to being rel to MS sasuke
And fighting pain
Mans went from mountain level - island

 

[MinatoSparkle]

There is a lot of time between Kabuto who fought 3-Tailed Naruto and Kabuto who fought the Uchiha brothers.

Even WA Kabuto was inferior to Orochimaru without SM

 

[Testarossa002]

There is a lot of time between Kabuto who fought 3-Tailed Naruto and Kabuto who fought the Uchiha brothers.

During that time, he was mostly shown to be looking for the ryuchi cave or grave robbing

 

[Samlex1234]

There is a lot of time between Kabuto who fought 3-Tailed Naruto and Kabuto who fought the Uchiha brothers.

But we know for a fact that taka sasuke with just 3 tomoe was greater than kabuto and orochimaru, but kabuto with sage mode could literally take on itachi and eternal mangekou Sasuke. The Gap between taka sasuke and eternal mangekou is massive. At the very least sage mode can not be inferior to curse mark And if curse mark is a ten times amp sage mode as to be at least 10 times amp. the op have provided adequate evidence for that.

There it is, there's the leap, the unproven, unsupported leap. Spotted. "to the same extent" is hilarious when the extent isn't measurable.

This is going in circles.

That's not related to the proposal at all.

Which is not proof that the effect is on a certain scale.


Listen, do you have anything substantial? Because it doesn't really seem like it.

Sage mode is made up of chakra, if the charkra is amping power by ten it makes no sense for it not to amp speed as we know the greater the chakra the greater the speed. Eg kakashi with naruto charkra is 3 times more powerful
Kaguya after gaining the shinobi charkra amped both are speed and power simultaneously
Rock lee can blitz madara with naruto chakra
Samurai can charge up speed of light attack with naruto chakra.
Another example 1 gates is a way of removing limiters that allows you to use levels of charkras, though it was not blantly mentioned to enhance speed by 5 but we know that because this is charkra and it is used to amp all stats if it is amping the power by 5 then it should automatically amped the speed by five.

 

[ssgengar]

During that time, he was mostly shown to be looking for the ryuchi cave or grave robbing

This is a good point, from what we’ve seen he spent a majority of his time doing research related things

 

[45Saef]

I agree with the op

 

[Romeu08]

Take a Bijuudama calc for example. Regardless of the size of the explosion, the concentration per cubic meter stays the same, the thing that increases or decreases the result is how large the effect is.

Well for one thing, at the top it lists Giant Flame Bombs as a ninjutsu and sage jutsu, and it's stated the oil to ignite the technique is created from sage jutsu chakra. Seems pretty clear the only difference is that the stronger version uses senjutsu.

Oh lmao i did not see it

 

[Samlex1234]

I seriously doubt you can dodge a car that is hundreds of times faster than you when it is at close proximity.


Anywya, I agree with GodlyCharmander. I don't see enough convincing evidence here for a 10x speed multiplier.

Pretty sure it's stated that said other forms (like the Hollow's Ressurection) are the equivalent to a Soul Reapers Bankai or something like that. Plus we don't scale Bankai multiplier all around to my knowledge. Regardless, this is Naruto, not Bleach.

I disagree with the OP.

10x larger =/= 10x more powerful

Hey guys a lot of counter arguments has been presented since you last commented please can you give your thoughts, thank you. @LordTracer @Damage3245 @LordGriffin1000

 

[Samlex1234]

Oh lmao i did not see it

Do you agree now?

 

[rogueprestonian]

I don’t know whether this is a staff CRT or not, and normally I don’t speak on stuff like this but OP made some logical arguments and the counterpoints are definitely weaker than the proof shown.
If I am allowed then I agree with OP

 

[ssgengar]

I don’t know whether this is a staff CRT or not, and normally I don’t speak on stuff like this but OP made some logical arguments and the counterpoints are definitely weaker than the proof shown.
If I am allowed then I agree with OP

You’re allowed, thanks for the input

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Following

 

[Testarossa002]

Hey guys a lot of counter arguments has been presented since you last commented please can you give your thoughts, thank you. @LordTracer @Damage3245 @LordGriffin1000

You can't ping mods
Message them on their walls

 

[Samlex1234]

You can't ping mods
Message them on their walls

Oh thanks.

 

[Panache_x]

Ok, would be giving futher Impute for sterm clarification
Firstly, will be going over the previous basis to make em crystal clear
I'll be using the scan for Jiriaya's jutsu but just gonna extract the explanation from it

Fire Style: Flame Bombs
Chakra is used to create oil in the caster's mouth, which is then ignited using the Fire Style technique as it is spit out

---

Fire Style: Giant Flame Bombs
After filling his mouth with oil created Inside his own body from sage jutsu chakra, the caster sprays the oil out as he ignites it with a Fire Style technique technique. The flames are more than ten times as large as Flame Bombs

From this both work basically with the exact same mechanics where oil is created and both are light up by a simple same Fire Style technique just like a match stick, but one is 10x+ greater than the other
So what changed?
One utilises normal chakra while the other utilises sage chakra
Note that the quantity of oil was never said to increase not the quantity of chakra increased, or even any form of unconventional manipulation was applied
The only change that occurred was the use of Sage Chakra gotten from his SM and more than 10x increase came about, this more than 10x narratively correlates to how SM is a better version of ST >>> CM was stated and depicted
Now back to how the only change was the use of Sage Chakra, this is heavily solidifying Sage chakra has a 10x+ Quality over normal chakra and note it's not about Quantity

In other words, 100 normal Chakra is worth 10 Sage Chakra
Presuming his normal Fire Bomb contains 5 strands of chakra to create the oil his sage fire bomb would still require 5 strands of sage chakra to create the oil but that 5 strands from SM is 10x greater than the 5 from normal chakra

So what's the implication of all this?
Statistics Amplification (Shinobi are capable of enhancing their physical capabilities with the use of chakra)
Based on the layed out mechanics I've given, Naruto without SM does the normal low ranking amp and increases from 1 - 2m/s
But when he amps in sage with the exact same amount of chakra and same mechanics he is going to move from 1 - 20m/s
It's a simple application

Then by simply entering SM the user's Physical Capabilities are passively restructured from normal chakra to Sage Chakra giving him the 10x increase

The reasons and workings for CM not affecting stats while ST and SM affecting all stats has previously been emphasized on
I think @ssgengar and @GokuSparkle points correlates with this as they've been main reasonable contributors