Another sage mode multiplier thread (speed)

[LordGriffin1000]

Showing speed was increased is something but that just means it went up. The new arguments brought up about the flame bomb don't have anything to due with speed so I don't find the relevant as the argument is for speed but their isn't a statement that says speed is multiplied, just buffed, and without that statement, I'm not 100% convinced. Does that mean I completely disagree, no. Because now that the who chakra/physicals thing is at play, the logic is there, so in the end, I agree with the revision until further notice.

 

[Damage3245]

Sage mode is made up of chakra, if the charkra is amping power by ten it makes no sense for it not to amp speed as we know the greater the chakra the greater the speed. Eg kakashi with naruto charkra is 3 times more powerful
Kaguya after gaining the shinobi charkra amped both are speed and power simultaneously
Rock lee can blitz madara with naruto chakra
Samurai can charge up speed of light attack with naruto chakra.
Another example 1 gates is a way of removing limiters that allows you to use levels of charkras, though it was not blantly mentioned to enhance speed by 5 but we know that because this is charkra and it is used to amp all stats if it is amping the power by 5 then it should automatically amped the speed by five.

These examples are not great.

Kakashi was not shown to be three times faster than normal once he'd been given Naruto's chakra.

Kaguya's power and speed both increasing doesn't mean that both were increased by the exact same amount.

Rock Lee blitzing Madara with Naruto's chakra doesn't prove he is made several times faster thanks to Naruto's chakra as he was using the Eight Gates as well and we have no prior comparison between him and Madara.

The Samurai aren't shown to have increased in speed with Naruto's chakra.

 

[KingTempest]

Excuse me but I thought the premise of this thread was tackled already

There is nothing that says speed is increased on the same extent as chakra. Chakra being amped 10x doesn't mean speed is amped by 10x. All your feats of blitzing mean nothing unless there's a statement the growth is linear

 

[ssgengar]

Showing speed was increased is something but that just means it went up. The new arguments brought up about the flame bomb don't have anything to due with speed so I don't find the relevant as the argument is for speed but their isn't a statement that says speed is multiplied, just buffed, and without that statement, I'm not 100% convinced. Does that mean I completely disagree, no. Because now that the who chakra/physicals thing is at play, the logic is there, so in the end, I agree with the revision until further notice.

I see what you’re saying about the flame bomb argument but it was also partly intended to give a clear statement of at least a 10x amp

Which brings us back to Goku’s point about sage chakra equally amping ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. That’s how it’s presented/told to us and I’ve yet to see a contradicting statement to it

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

There's no statement that directly refers to the speed being increased by a factor of 10x

Obviously Sage Transformations amps speed, but it's not confirmed to be 10x, so this is a no

 

[ssgengar]

Excuse me but I thought the premise of this thread was tackled already

Well yeah I used your thread as reference, and like I said in mine there were points you made regarding the CM that I actually agree with. In this thread I go over how its amp translates to ST and SM, and how they affect multiple stats rather than just one

There is nothing that says speed is increased on the same extent as chakra. Chakra being amped 10x doesn't mean speed is amped by 10x. All your feats of blitzing mean nothing unless there's a statement the growth is linear

The speed boosts are backed by the fact we have clear mention of sage chakra giving an equal boost for amped stats

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I feel like before trying to change speed, maybe getting the 10x multiplier back for AP should be prioritized, as that's easier to prove, and the speed can't be revised if that isn't

 

[KingTempest]

Well yeah I used your thread as reference, and like I said in mine there were points you made regarding the CM that I actually agree with. In this thread I go over how its amp translates to ST and SM, and how they affect multiple stats rather than just one

It's never denied that they affect multiple stats
It's denied that they affect multiple stats equally.

You brought up ninjutsu taijutsu and genjutsu amped equally. That doesn't mean speed is amped to 10x. Unless they say "Speed is 10x", then no

 

[ssgengar]

There's no statement that directly refers to the speed being increased by a factor of 10x

Obviously Sage Transformations amp speed, but it's not confirmed to be 10x, so this is a no

Yes but I’ve told why ST and SM are superior to CM, which justifies receiving the same multiplier and applying it to all stats because 1. We know that it’s an equal boost for affected stats and 2. We have clear feats of physical amplification as well as clear superiority over CM. And that’s on top of a clear 10x statement, which again applies all across the board given Pa toad’s explanation of sage mode

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Is the Sharingan thought to amp AP and speed equally?

 

[Galvino]

While I'm not sure about an exact multiplier, but tailed beast chakra does increase both strength and speed like we saw Naruto and Bee multiple times in the series.

 

[ssgengar]

It's never denied that they affect multiple stats
It's denied that they affect multiple stats equally.

You brought up ninjutsu taijutsu and genjutsu amped equally. That doesn't mean speed is amped to 10x. Unless they say "Speed is 10x", then no

We have two different occasions where balance is emphasized here and here, even look at the diagrams shown during the explanation, everything must be balanced and equal for the desirable results to be achieved. Which means no affected stat is being prioritized. It’s even stated that Naruto’s whole body becomes activated, activated the same way all of his stats are through the benefits of sage chakra

 

[Damage3245]

We have two different occasions where balance is emphasized here and here, even look at the diagrams shown during the explanation, everything must be balanced and equal for the desirable results to be achieved. Which means no affected stat is being prioritized. It’s even stated that Naruto’s whole body becomes activated, activated the same way all of his stats are through the benefits of sage chakra

That is not describing a balance of stats.

 

[ssgengar]

That is not describing a balance of stats.

It’s a completely equal input of 3 energies that translates to 3 overall capabilities through sage chakra

And it’s stated the user becomes activated through this method where balance is required, so where is the imbalance that contradicts this?

 

[KingTempest]

No it is not, balance is the balance of energies required to make senjutsu chakra, not the balance provided to all stats

 

[ssgengar]

No it is not, balance is the balance of energies required to make senjutsu chakra, not the balance provided to all stats

Maybe my wording was off, I don’t mean it directly translates. But it’s the fusion of these energies that makes sage chakra, which then boosts stats

So where does this method achieved only through balance change course and start prioritizing what it strengthens? There are no statements of imbalanced amplification

 

[KingTempest]

Maybe my wording was off, I don’t mean it directly translates. But it’s the fusion of these energies that makes sage chakra, which then boosts stats

So where does this method achieved only through balance change course and start prioritizing what it strengthens? There are no statements of imbalanced amplification

There's no statement of balanced amplification.

Regular chakra enhancement requires balance. Adding Senjutsu adds balance and without balance the user can die.

 

[ssgengar]

There's no statement of balanced amplification.

Regular chakra enhancement requires balance. Adding Senjutsu adds balance and without balance the user can die.

We’ve already seen Pa toad speak generally about the boost for all stats, he didn’t exclude or emphasize. And for those stats we have clear showings of noticeable boosts which is the standard for multipliers

At this point with a statement like “your whole body becomes activated” you’d have to prove why this activation is imbalanced when it clearly generalizes the entire body

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why is the Gates amp accepted to be equal for strength and speed?

 

[Samlex1234]

These examples are not great.

Kakashi was not shown to be three times faster than normal once he'd been given Naruto's chakra.

Kaguya's power and speed both increasing doesn't mean that both were increased by the exact same amount.

Rock Lee blitzing Madara with Naruto's chakra doesn't prove he is made several times faster thanks to Naruto's chakra as he was using the Eight Gates as well and we have no prior comparison between him and Madara.

The Samurai aren't shown to have increased in speed with Naruto's chakra.

The point of this argument is to show tha charkra increases speed which I have proved .
again kaguya got a speed amp
rock lee got a speed amp
mifune has a light speed attack that is accepted on wiki via naruto chakra
again charkra amps both speed , taijustu , ninjutsu and genjustu the same.

 

[Samlex1234]

There's no statement that directly refers to the speed being increased by a factor of 10x

Obviously Sage Transformations amps speed, but it's not confirmed to be 10x, so this is a no

okay Look at this, if someone has ten percent charkra that would mean but speed and ninjutsu are 10 percent if it goes up to 100 percent both speed and ninjutsu are 100 percent. The argument of the op is that since sage mode is chakra that amps all stats the same. Why will speed not be amped the same? Hence why he provided evidance for the speed being amped

 

[BlastX]

Honestly at this point you're making a way better argument at bringing back the 10x multiplier for AP without even focusing on it.

 

[Samlex1234]

Honestly at this point you're making a way better argument at bringing back the 10x multiplier for AP without even focusing on it.

honestly it should be accepted for both. Ap and speed if it amps taijustu which includes physical stats which includes speed . Ninjutsu and genjustu by 10

 

[Samlex1234]

It's never denied that they affect multiple stats
It's denied that they affect multiple stats equally.

You brought up ninjutsu taijutsu and genjutsu amped equally. That doesn't mean speed is amped to 10x. Unless they say "Speed is 10x", then no

In this reply you kinda already agreed. Taijustu includes physical stats which also include speed. if the physical stats is amped by 10 then this should also affect the speed.

 

[KingTempest]

okay Look at this, if someone has ten percent charkra that would mean but speed and ninjutsu are 10 percent if it goes up to 100 percent both speed and ninjutsu are 100 percent. The argument of the op is that since sage mode is chakra that amps all stats the same. Why will speed not be amped the same? Hence why he provided evidance for the speed being amped

If they have 0 chakra are they now immobile?

In this reply you kinda already agreed. Taijustu includes physical stats which also include speed. if the physical stats is amped by 10 then this should also affect the speed.

Taijutsu being 10x better ≠ every aspect of taijutsu being equally better. 2x speed and 5x strength can mean taijutsu is 10x better.
Taijutsu includes skill. Are you now 10x more skilled because you're amping stats?

 

[Samlex1234]

If they have 0 chakra are they now immobile?

Taijutsu being 10x better ≠ every aspect of taijutsu being equally better. 2x speed and 5x strength can mean taijutsu is 10x better.
Taijutsu includes skill. Are you now 10x more skilled because you're amping stats?

Well yes zero charkra does not just mean immobile it means death. sage mode consist of Nature energy, mental energy and physical energy (chakra) this energy are combined to make a more powerful energy that amps your Taijustu by 10 again taijustu includes both and mental and physical ability, energy from from your physical body and mental state directly correlates to this action it make no sense for it to divide the energy again because the energy in your physical body is already ten times great . In fact it says that they have to be balance everything must be the same you can’t have too much nature or less nature energy this goes for physical and mental too.
example 1
the first gate was accepted on this wiki even though it does not necessarily say that the speed is amped by 5 but since we know that the physical stats are 5 time greater due the form allowing you to use 100 percent of your body potential energy (charkra) we automatically apply it for the speed too. It the same exact thing nothing changes. The only difference is that 1 gates allows you to use 100 percent of your body potential while, sage mode just muitiplier the 20 percent that everyone is allowed to use by 10
example 2
we already know that the curse mark increases strength by 10 so you dividing by giving 5x to strength and 2x speed is hasty generalizations that is not supported by any evidence at this point we will just be assuming anything when evidence as already been provided. Your argument is that we are arguing from ignorant but that is far from it we have a enough evidence to support than you have to oppose.

 

[ssgengar]

If they have 0 chakra are they now immobile?

I think we’re focusing too heavily on these percentages, chakra is like fuel so the user’s state will reflect their available reserves. The real point though is again that the amp is equal across the board and because of that, if say naruto’s sage chakra was diminished it would reflect all amped categories equally

Taijutsu being 10x better ≠ every aspect of taijutsu being equally better. 2x speed and 5x strength can mean taijutsu is 10x better.
Taijutsu includes skill. Are you now 10x more skilled because you're amping stats?

Sage chakra benefits the entire body along with their jutsu, it’s clearly stated that this activates the user as a whole. So you’d have to have supporting evidence that this activation and multiplier applies to other stats but not speed when 1. Speed is part of taijutsu and obviously the users body’s capabilities and 2. There’s clear difference of amped speed which is required for multipliers being granted

And yeah no, it doesn’t affect taijutsu skills lol, skill comes from knowledge, muscle memory, etc. which doesn’t align with sage chakra activating a user’s jutsu and physicals

What has been presented to us regarding sage mode supports the fact its chakra functions like a blanket, because it covers the entire body as stated

 

[SlendVeny]

If they have 0 chakra are they now immobile?

Yes.

 

[Samlex1234]

There's no statement that directly refers to the speed being increased by a factor of 10x

Obviously Sage Transformations amps speed, but it's not confirmed to be 10x, so this is a no

Arguments has been presented to counter this. Already if you read through the chats.

That is not describing a balance of stats.

i think we already explained how sage mode is a form of charkra that amps your stats by 10 at least meaning at the very least it is greater than normal charkra that amps both taijustu which includes both speed and strength , genjustu and ninjutsu.

It's never denied that they affect multiple stats
It's denied that they affect multiple stats equally.

You brought up ninjutsu taijutsu and genjutsu amped equally. That doesn't mean speed is amped to 10x. Unless they say "Speed is 10x", then no

we already tackled this above.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

I agree with the OP, well sort of.

Fukasaku has stated that SM boosts Taijutsu which has speed as a subset. However, I don't fully agree that the speed is being amped 10x, just that it has the potential to.

What I mean is, we know, pouring chakra into one's body can enhance their stats but it should be noted that it cannot be done always in all stats. Sometimes, depending upon the situation some stats would have to be more focused on then others, which gives a sort of illusion of relativity in that aspect.

We saw this with A3. Naruto was able to blitz A4 with KCM but not A3 and relied on the inferior SM to get the job done. I never saw it as SM being faster but rather it possessing greater sensory abilities and reaction speed that it was capable of landing a counterstrike and dodging while still being inferior in speed.

Basically, the 10x amp is real and applied everywhere just not at the same time.

 

[ssgengar]

What I mean is, we know, pouring chakra into one's body can enhance their stats but it should be noted that it cannot be done always in all stats. Sometimes, depending upon the situation some stats would have to be more focused on then others, which gives a sort of illusion of relativity in that aspect.

Can you give some examples? Because the thing is whenever we see some sort of focus on one stat, it’s through techniques/abilities rather than the amp itself. Like of course if naruto was in sage mode and needed a powerful move to end a fight, he’d take advantage of his amped ninjutsu. Or if he was fighting someone h2h, he’d use frog kata to increase his range, but that doesn’t take away from his body’s activation

We saw this with A3. Naruto was able to blitz A4 with KCM but not A3 and relied on the inferior SM to get the job done. I never saw it as SM being faster but rather it possessing greater sensory abilities and reaction speed that it was capable of landing a counterstrike and dodging while still being inferior in speed.

Two things though, 1. Naruto separated his danger sensing from speed (that had no mention of reactions) and said he’d have to move fast to be successful when explaining why sage mode would be the more viable option against the third and 2. Saying how you viewed certain feats is more so an interpretation rather than evidence, you’re not wrong for it though so I’ll just give mine as well. If you really look at the context, it supports the idea of naruto’s danger sensing also being more relative to reflexes than you might think. Because sensing danger wouldn’t matter when your opponent is right in your face (naruto's situation against the third), it’s quite obvious where the danger is coming from. The “faster” statement is just generalizing the mode which we know activates the entire body. Remember sage mode can’t even be used without adding physical energy, so it’s more than just sensing and reactions

Basically, the 10x amp is real and applied everywhere just not at the same time.

Considering you agree that the boost is actually 10x, I feel I’ve provided enough to prove why it amps stats simultaneously. Like I see where you’re coming from but what exactly points toward a situation where naruto has to be like “okay, let me disable my speed amp so that my strength can be fully utilized” or “I don’t use genjutsu so let me disable that so the sage chakra ignores it and just amps ninjutsu or taijutsu” sage chakra is stated to amp the user as a whole

 

[Samlex1234]

Can you give some examples? Because the thing is whenever we see some sort of focus on one stat, it’s through techniques/abilities rather than the amp itself. Like of course if naruto was in sage mode and needed a powerful move to end a fight, he’d take advantage of his amped ninjutsu. Or if he was fighting someone h2h, he’d use frog kata to increase his range, but that doesn’t take away from his body’s activation


Two things though, 1. Naruto separated his danger sensing from speed (that had no mention of reactions) and said he’d have to move fast to be successful when explaining why sage mode would be the more viable option against the third and 2. Saying how you viewed certain feats is more so an interpretation rather than evidence, you’re not wrong for it though so I’ll just give mine as well. If you really look at the context, it supports the idea of naruto’s danger sensing also being more relative to reflexes than you might think. Because sensing danger wouldn’t matter when your opponent is right in your face (naruto's situation against the third), it’s quite obvious where the danger is coming from. The “faster” statement is just generalizing the mode which we know activates the entire body. Remember sage mode can’t even be used without adding physical energy, so it’s more than just sensing and reactions


Considering you agree that the boost is actually 10x, I feel I’ve provided enough to prove why it amps stats simultaneously. Like I see where you’re coming from but what exactly points toward a situation where naruto has to be like “okay, let me disable my speed amp so that my strength can be fully utilized” or “I don’t use genjutsu so let me disable that so the sage chakra ignores it and just amps ninjutsu or taijutsu” sage chakra is stated to amp the user as a whole

Honestly I agree with ssgengar we already explained why it has to be any all round stats amp. You arguement is 5he same with kingtempest and it has already been tackled.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Can you give some examples?

Honestly, I can't think of any now. I'll check and let you know.

Because the thing is whenever we see some sort of focus on one stat, it’s through techniques/abilities rather than the amp itself. Like of course if naruto was in sage mode and needed a powerful move to end a fight, he’d take advantage of his amped ninjutsu. Or if he was fighting someone h2h, he’d use frog kata to increase his range, but that doesn’t take away from his body’s activation

This is true. I never disagreed with this though. The problem here is you see the 10x amp as something he gains as soon as he enters SM while I see it as the limit. Obviously, Naruto grows stronger as he enters the mode but not 10x. Now, I don't remember the chapter no. but in the Gokage battle with Madara, we see Tsunade being pierced by a blade but then also show the resilience to tank a Yasaka Magatama. This indicates the body can be reinforced or strengthened via chakra, which is a basic concept.

Two things though, 1. Naruto separated his danger sensing from speed (that had no mention of reactions) and said he’d have to move fast to be successful when explaining why sage mode would be the more viable option against the third and 2. Saying how you viewed certain feats is more so an interpretation rather than evidence, you’re not wrong for it though so I’ll just give mine as well. If you really look at the context, it supports the idea of naruto’s danger sensing also being more relative to reflexes than you might think. Because sensing danger wouldn’t matter when your opponent is right in your face (naruto's situation against the third), it’s quite obvious where the danger is coming from. The “faster” statement is just generalizing the mode which we know activates the entire body. Remember sage mode can’t even be used without adding physical energy, so it’s more than just sensing and reactions

I actually agree, but I was more so highlighting the difference in certain abilities that both have.

Mine is not necessarily an interpretation since it congruent with the 10x statement and with Pain being relative to both base and SM Naruto.

Considering you agree that the boost is actually 10x, I feel I’ve provided enough to prove why it amps stats simultaneously. Like I see where you’re coming from but what exactly points toward a situation where naruto has to be like “okay, let me disable my speed amp so that my strength can be fully utilized or “I don’t use genjutsu so let me disable that so the sage chakra ignores it and just amps ninjutsu or taijutsu”

I don't believe he starts out with 10x speed anyway, he increases it by pouring chakra when he feels he requires more speed. The same goes for the other stats. There is no disabling but rather activating.

sage chakra is stated to amp the user as a whole”

Never disagreed with this point. Now prove that this amp is by 10.

Honestly I agree with ssgengar we already explained why it has to be any all round stats amp. You arguement is 5he same with kingtempest and it has already been tackled.

I don't believe either of you addressed Pain scaling to both Base and SM Naruto.

 

[ssgengar]

Honestly, I can't think of any now. I'll check and let you know.

This is true. I never disagreed with this though. The problem here is you see the 10x amp as something he gains as soon as he enters SM while I see it as the limit.

I mean regardless it still results in naruto receiving the amp via sage mode. It’s similar to literally anybody putting in more effort/energy when it’s required, which doesn’t take away from anything. I mean even if we take another look at the third raikage confrontation, naruto entered sage mode and immediately showed its prowess. So even if it were the case that he gauges the amount, he’s fully capable of starting out with full output if he feels that it’s necessary

we see Tsunade being pierced by a blade but then also show the resilience to tank a Yasaka Magatama. This indicates the body can be reinforced or strengthened via chakra, which is a basic concept.

Sure, but it’s also worth noting that there’s a difference between piercing resistance and blunt force durability

Never disagreed with this point. Now prove that this amp is by 10.

Didn’t you agree with the multiplier already..? I showed superiority over CM’s and why it applies to multiple stats

I don't believe either of you addressed Pain scaling to both Base and SM Naruto.

Check the contradictions section in the OP

 

[ssgengar]

Any replies I didn’t tag was because I felt I addressed already with my other responses btw, if you think I skipped over something feel free to call it out

 

[45Saef]

I have no problem whatsoever as I’ve gone over the calc and it seems fine to me.

Attempting the impossible, I'll be going over feats and information that support sage mode granting a 10x speed increase. Also towards the end I'll be addressing the brought up contradictions that led to the multiplier being dropped as a whole


CM = curse mark
ST = sage transformation (full transformation)
SM = sage mode


Curse mark ~ sage transformation

Regardless of what’s being amped, one thing the CMs all have in common is their origin, ST

Karin even states that the CM allows hosts to achieve the same state, which means not the same stats being amped, but the same amp multiplier. Why? Because KT already addressed the fact that CM doesn’t amp all stats, which I’ve come to agree with. So if it doesn’t amp all stats like ST and doesn’t share the same amp or at least have one comparable to ST, it's not achieving the same state by any shape or form. This supports the amp being at least equal, along with the obvious ST being superior to CM. Look at CM2 sasuke's showings against deidara for example, his amp clearly wasn't as noticeable as sage transformation's


Sage transformation ~ sage mode

Since I’ve shown why CM and ST have the same amp relativity, I’ll now show that the ST amp affects speed and translates to SM (reminder that jugo's ST power comes from utilizing senjutsu like SM)

Fully transformed jugo reacted to the 4th raikage in his lightning cloak. C states that he’s impressed with sasuke and jugo, because they’re keeping up with the raikage’s speed and reflexes (this is a showing of increase for speed and durability to support ST affecting multiple stats. Vsb already accepts it as an AP boost)

To put this into perspective, killer B who is slower than the raikage easily evaded a partially transformed jugo. This supports the fact that it’s a 1 to 1 amp to AP, because he was too slow for base killer b, but while fully transformed could react to and block a lightning cloaked raikage. This is consistent because VSB accepts jugo as MHS+, and with a 10x amplifier he reaches sub rel which is what the raikage’s speed is currently listed as, which supports the fact that he needed full ST to react to and block him

Some other situations to support sage mode's speed amp, SM is stated to be faster than KCM1, it was used to finally blitz the 3rd raikage and deal damage after failing with KCM1. This applies to reactions and speed because naruto even mentions that he has to move out of the way "really fast" to successfully counter. What makes this impressive is the fact that he used KCM1 to blitz the 4th raikage, it was this speed that was used as a comparison to minato by him, tsunade and B. That supports the speed amp being noticeable enough for a multiplier, which fits our standard for multipliers being given

Second example is kabuto going from MHS+ to sub rel after achieving perfect sage mode, which again supports a 10x speed increase

Last example is mitsuki using ST to blitz orochimaru and log, while simultaneously stealing the seed. This is less quantifiable but still clearly shows a very noticeable speed increase

We know that ST is a way of attaining SM, so naturally the CM’s origin is inferior to the true stage it’s trying to attain. In other words, sage mode would amplify its user by the very least, curse mark’s weakest amplifier (10x)

Because the weakest CM wouldn't have a higher amp than its own origin and true stage of its origin. Even the narrative supports my point by giving clear evidence of ST/SM's superiority over CM which justifies at least the same multiplier being given


Lastly I’ll be addressing the feats that are claimed to contradict SM receiving the CM amplifier in this thread
https://vsbattles.com/threads/curse-mark-and-sage-mode-multiplier-removal-crt.119609/

Base naruto compared to sage mode
“A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson. An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.”
“Did he take the hits as if he tanked them or as if he was relative? Of course not.
The fact that they could keep up is an issue. Ofc they shouldn't be relative for sending him flying, but the fact that he took the hit and could still fight him is a problem.”


I don’t see a big problem with this first part, the kick wasn’t meant to deal tons of damage. It was one stationary kick to create distance so that he can set up his rasenshuriken, and it still sent him flying. Had it worked how naruto wanted with no interference from the preta path, then pain could’ve possibly taken considerable damage. This was the purpose of every rasenshuriken because he couldn't afford to waste a single one

As for the 2 path combo, it didn’t hurt him at all. Naruto literally laughed in pain’s face and insulted him lol

Lastly, the kick pain took was still way more than anything he received from base naruto

It's important to remember that pain's objective wasn't to kill naruto, but to capture him. Not every blow was lethal or intended to be


Base naruto compared to Six paths sage mode + kcm

- Boruto (momoshiki)
“Base Naruto got kicked in the face through a stadium by Momoshiki and isn't hurt (anime).”
“Base Naruto fought against Momoshiki and took hits from him (anime and manga).”


This can be explained by momoshiki’s objective being to extract nine tails from naruto, not kill him, similar to the pain situation

In his confrontation with fused momoshiki, naruto instantly gains the upper hand and sends him flying after activating SPSM. This is SPSM naruto's only showing of physical feats against fused momoshiki and he was in control the entire time. While in base form he could only briefly keep up while on the defensive end

- Boruto (delta)
“Base Naruto took hits from Delta and could slam her into the ground, kept up with her in speed, etc. (anime and manga).”


She took no damage from him slamming her

Delta and naruto both began going full power after he kept up in base and switched to SPSM. Naruto blatantly acknowledges that her power is increasing and that she’s getting serious, so he does the same

- Boruto (jigensshiki)
“Base Naruto kicked Isshiki in his face and left a wound (manga).”
“Base Naruto took a few knees from Isshiki (manga).”


“Wound” is a strong word, he caught isshiki off guard and left a scratch

This is base naruto to an on guard base jigen, And to an on guard isshiki. While in SPSM he could at least do stuff like this against karma amped jigen, this against isshiki, and this too which is far better than anything he’s shown in base

As for the single stomp he took in base, not the few knees(?) It wasn’t meant to be a killing blow. He used naruto as bait then literally threatened to kill him after the stomp happened

Also, isshiki was already severely drained. Naruto didn’t even take that damage from a healthy isshiki, but an extremely weakened one. His life span shrunk to a few minutes by the time he stomped him


Base naruto compared to Six paths sage mode + kcm (continued)

- Base and CS1 jugo compared to CS2 jugo
“CS1 Jugo is comparable to Suigetsu for their feats of clashing.”
“Suigetsu could block a hit from Ay. The same Ay who could punch into CS2 Jugo, who's supposed to be 10x stronger than the one that fought Suigetsu.”


Again my whole argument is that the 10x amp comes from full transformation, same way jirobo’s 10x amp was stated only in his second stage. In other words he didn’t have that amp in his fight with suigetsu

And suigetsu himself admitted that he would’ve lost both of his arms if he couldn’t turn his body into water. So that wouldn’t be him matching the raikage’s strength, it would be using intangibility to circumvent the drawbacks of trying to match somebody more powerful



So to conclude, the 10x multiplier should be applied to the speed of perfect sage mode users and obviously affect characters who are relative. That's about it, lmk what you think

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

I mean regardless it still results in naruto receiving the amp via sage mode. It’s similar to literally anybody putting in more effort/energy when it’s required, which doesn’t take away from anything. I mean even if we take another look at the third raikage confrontation, naruto entered sage mode and immediately showed its prowess. So even if it were the case that he gauges the amount, he’s fully capable of starting out with full output if he feels that it’s necessary

Agreed. All I am arguing is that entering SM itself doesn't grant the 10x amp even though he does get amped.

Sure, but it’s also worth noting that there’s a difference between piercing resistance and blunt force durability

True, but its a bit weird how she was so easily pierced by the blades yet held little damage when it came to the bead that could contend with a TBB.

Didn’t you agree with the multiplier already..? I showed superiority over CM’s and why it applies to multiple stats

I did. I just see it as the upper limit, not something he gains as soon as he enters SM... but..

Check the contradictions section in the OP

Yeah... Your explanation checks out. Count me in with the agree.

 

[Testarossa002]

Can we get more staffs to evaluate?
Seems like the thread is getting abandoned

 

[ssgengar]

Agreed. All I am arguing is that entering SM itself doesn't grant the 10x amp even though he does get amp

To clarify once more, are you saying he doesn’t necessarily start with the 10x amp right away but has access to it by increasing his sage chakra?

True, but its a bit weird how she was so easily pierced by the blades yet held little damage when it came to the bead that could contend with a TBB.

What chapter again? I forget the context honestly

I did. I just see it as the upper limit, not something he gains as soon as he enters SM... but..

Ok ig this answers my first question, however I’m still convinced that he can access these benefits immediately should the situation call for it. Pa toad did say that rings around the eyes were proof of successful sagehood, and considering naruto obviously displays this each time he enters sage mode, then it justifies along with naruto’s feats that the required amount of sage chakra to achieve “successful sagehood” is enough to apply its multiplier

Yeah... Your explanation checks out. Count me in with the agree.

And alright cool will do

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

To clarify once more, are you saying he doesn’t necessarily start with the 10x amp right away but has access to it by increasing his sage chakra?

Yep. What I am essentially trying to argue here is that it is possible for SM Naruto to operate relative to his base despite the technique amping him 10x by virtue of not pouring that chakra into the physicals or simply lacking it.

What chapter again? I forget the context honestly

Scans are hard to come by for me. For now the best I can narrow it down for you is the battle between the Gokage and Madara.

And alright cool will do