And Thus a New Shitsorm Was Born: Nasuverse Massive Speed Revisions

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But honestly, i'm fine if Kiara servant version need to be held, what i have the issues is that the profiles creation for the servants got delayed because of it

 

[Maxeez]

Also by becoming part of the Root, Void must be able to do what Root can do, such as passive Absorption and Existence Erasure: anyone who touches the Root will be absorbed and erased passively. And could be Omnipresence as well?

While we're at it, I'll add some scans for this :

Aoko: I mean that no one touching the Root has ever come back. On a global scale. You touch it, you cease to exist on the spot. The very moment the likes of a human soul touches it, it’ll go back to “where it came from" or be absorbed into the Root, or something.

Coming from Mahou Tsukai no Yoru. Also, Bump.

 

[Regidian]

In addition to Void Shiki: By becoming BDE 2 the user will also have irrelevant strength, irrelevant speed, outerversal durability, higher dimensional manipulation, and large size type 11.

Also by becoming part of the Root, Void must be able to do what Root can do, such as passive Absorption and Existence Erasure: anyone who touches the Root will be absorbed and erased passively. And could be Omnipresence as well?

For the last part no void can't do it in her ryougi body. As it a thing when reaching the "place" Root. If void had this she would just have passively erased the verse when coming

 

[Regidian]

I can't trust him since it take so long for him to do the promised CRT, we're reaching almost a years and he still not publish it

Crimson wait for the release of L5.2.

 

[HyperZero95]

For the last part no void can't do in her ryougi body. As it a thing when reaching the "place" Root. If void as this she would just have passively erased the verse when coming

I agree. This power specifically should be exclusive to Akasha.

 

[Regidian]

except there are those same low end feats in GO itself still. and the story falls apart when it reaches LS speed for the reasons mentioned before.

Servants moving at LS at all burns them up. Karna FTL statements are hyperbolic outliers

you know authors don't take into account combat and travel speed differences like debaters do, right? and just because BB said LS burns up Servants when Melt was going LS with travel speed doesn't mean BB was only referring to travel speed.

except we have no feat of Karna punching FTL. just a statement that is as hyperbolic as any other.

what feat?

you're ignoring consistent detailed feats that have existed all the way up to the series your using these high end feats for. your interpretation makes story events fall apart, like Kirei keeping up with Servants despite struggling with bullets, etc.

idk if i'm making a downgrade CRT yet because i'm lazy. but i'd be arguing for the most consistent feats that don't make the story fall apart, so i'd hardly be having the same issues.

i can't accept power creep as an argument when Nasu is probably just referring to the stronger enemies like Beasts and when the story events of older works fall apart when not acknowledging low ends.

sorry i thought you meant Medusa beat up Kirei.

better but i still have issues since GO has those same weird showings. regardless, i think we've kind of wrapped up conveying our views to each other on this.

one thing i like giving credit to regarding this website is how civil most people are. i usually don't see that much anywhere else.

They are way less low feat number, the bigger just being tomoe case in term of combat.

Servant with A rank and below can burn with travel speed. Karna is Ex rank and
t can't be an hyperbole or an outlier it's litteraly a skill description a part of the lore of his class and appear in his material.

You know author do? We have litteraly servant Moving only above human speed (like when cu is chasing a cars) but yet can combat in way higher speed, it's like a common thing that everyone know about.

We litteraly have the feat in the event, the skill description telling it, and the material telling it, stop talking about hyperbole or outlier when it's clearly not one, pls stop hyperbole for each feat that you don't like.

You ignore consistent detailed feat too and choose to use only the low interpretation one.

Kirei have keep only with like one of the weakest servant it exist how that even an argument and he didn't even struggle with bullet.

He doesn't only talk about about Beast as even the feat of servant got better ( + we have like servant fighting the beast you talk....) except if you think that the description of servant being only jet fighter level is still credible in fgo.

 

[Regidian]

Anyways won't want to talk much about this. But describing every higher feat than supersonic as outlier or hyperbolic is clearly wrong, when most of them are way more described than the lower one, are part of skill description and material which most of lower speed feat are not. And telling that travel speed/combat speed is the same in fate is clearly impossible when pratically all the feat of travelling speed described in fate are in the range of km/h lol.

 

[CrystalValley]

They are way less low feat number, the bigger just being tomoe case in term of combat.

the amount of feats and statements being on the low end is massive and by far more than MHS and LS combined effortlessly.

Servant with A rank and below can burn with travel speed.

examples?

Karna is Ex rank and
t can't be an hyperbole or an outlier it's litteraly a skill description a part of the lore of his class and appear in his material.

just because it's a skill description doesn't men there isn't hyperbole. you know what isn't an outlier or hyperbole though? Servant level Kirei and Kiritsugu struggling with bullets. same with Zero Saber.

You ignore consistent detailed feat too and choose to use only the low interpretation one.

hyperbole to generate hype versus consistent detailed descriptions and on screen feats that would fall apart if characters were light speed.

Kirei have keep only with like one of the weakest servant it exist how that even an argument and he didn't even struggle with bullet.

Kirei at his peak can fight Servants and keep up in speed. his weaker FSN counterpart kept up with an Assassin that had A agility and was ready to straight up drop him in the second round since he could just exorcise him. Kiritsugu was also prepared for Maiya to take on Assassin alone while he assassinates Kayneth, meaning she could keep up. the first example is Kirei way after his peak and Maiya is way below Kiritsugu even before his peak. they are most certainly Servant level to some degree and can keep up with any of them. they are just at a disadvantage when it comes to weaponry and noble phantasms.

saying Servants are MHS let alone LS makes the stories fall apart.

He doesn't only talk about about Beast as even the feat of servant got better ( + we have like servant fighting the beast you talk....)

that just makes Beasts not impressive really. but since we're going by this site it also doesn't help you since Servants clearly are not going to be scaled to 1-C Beasts with immeasurable speed.

except if you think that the description of servant being only jet fighter level is still credible in fgo.

AP is a different argument. that could potentially have a more fluid interpretation. but speed arguments fall apart when you start arguing for MHS or LS for characters that struggle with bullets and being unable to properly react to someone covering a few kilometers quickly among many other things.

But describing every higher feat than supersonic as outlier or hyperbolic is clearly wrong,

this has all be disproven. the stories fall apart when you go with any higher interpretation.

 

[Maxeez]

For the last part no void can't do it in her ryougi body. As it a thing when reaching the "place" Root. If void had this she would just have passively erased the verse when coming

That's fair but shouldn't it be added to her true self key ? As she does reside in said "place" in FGO for example, her profile does mention that through type 9 immortality.

 

[Maxeez]

Also, we need more input for the original speed/durability/type 2 BDE part for Shiki since no one disagrees on that part from what I've seen so far.

 

[Regidian]

the amount of feats and statements being on the low end is massive and by far more than MHS and LS combined effortlessly.

examples?

just because it's a skill description doesn't men there isn't hyperbole. you know what isn't an outlier or hyperbole though? Servant level Kirei and Kiritsugu struggling with bullets. same with Zero Saber.

hyperbole to generate hype versus consistent detailed descriptions and on screen feats that would fall apart if characters were light speed.

Kirei at his peak can fight Servants and keep up in speed. his weaker FSN counterpart kept up with an Assassin that had A agility and was ready to straight up drop him in the second round since he could just exorcise him. Kiritsugu was also prepared for Maiya to take on Assassin alone while he assassinates Kayneth, meaning she could keep up. the first example is Kirei way after his peak and Maiya is way below Kiritsugu even before his peak. they are most certainly Servant level to some degree and can keep up with any of them. they are just at a disadvantage when it comes to weaponry and noble phantasms.

saying Servants are MHS let alone LS makes the stories fall apart.

that just makes Beasts not impressive really. but since we're going by this site it also doesn't help you since Servants clearly are not going to be scaled to 1-C Beasts with immeasurable speed.

AP is a different argument. that could potentially have a more fluid interpretation. but speed arguments fall apart when you start arguing for MHS or LS for characters that struggle with bullets and being unable to properly react to someone covering a few kilometers quickly among many other things.

this has all be disproven. the stories fall apart when you go with any higher interpretation.

It's incorrect i can find you more than thirty lighting speed feat just by searching a little lol.

Example? Meltlilith, BB explications litteraly talk about servant with A rank agility and lower. Karna santa is Ex rank so this thing doesn't apply to him.

Kirei and kiristugu are not servant level the whole premise in zero was that kiritsugu want to kill the master because he can't really take on servant by himself.... Like them keeping with better servant would more be counted as outlier for them than counter feat for servant lol

Zero saber was weak so i mean it doesn't help you and if you talk about berserker bullet they are like enhanced in all aspect so speed too.

It's not hyperbole to generate hype when it's described an enormous amount of Time + tell on material etc and like even used in thing with no hype at all lol? And like i tell most of the time the lighting/ls descriptions are more detailed than the supersonic.

Kirei peak as a human it's a strong magus. (Who doesn't struggle with bullet contrary to what you tell) so keeping with some servant before powercreep i don't see the problem.

In fgo no servant struggle with bullet so i don't see how it will counter the argument of powercreep. And second argument you talk about what?

It's the inverse the story of fgo fell apart if they are this low in speed lol. Like one more time pratically all the people and even nasu recognize multiple powercreep in fgo so trying to use fate zero/stay night will not help (like even kirei will surely get a power up in lb7)

 

[Regidian]

Like one more time that you don't acknowledge it doesn't change the fact that the powercreep for servant in all aspect exist and is recognize by all.


We will probably continue this forever so better to stop

 

[CrystalValley]

It's incorrect i can find you more than thirty lighting speed feat just by searching a little lol.

seriously no. and even then we've seen which statements are backed up by feats and are more detailed.

Example? Meltlilith, BB explications litteraly talk about servant with A rank agility and lower. Karna santa is Ex rank so this thing doesn't apply to him.

servants only burning with A rank travel speed? scans or at least a quote please.

Kirei and kiristugu are not servant level the whole premise in zero was that kiritsugu want to kill the master because he can't really take on servant by himself.... Like them keeping with better servant would more be counted as outlier for them than counter feat for servant lol

Kirei and Kiritsugu are vastly superior to Rin even when not at their prime. and Rin in the VN was described to have speed on par with Saber and caught Caster off guard. they are clearly Servant level and can easily keep up with Servants. speed was never an issue for them. mystery and noble phantasms are what put them at a disadvantage.

Kirei keeping up with TA is a core part of the story that matters. otherwise TA would've just blitzed him and attacked Shirou and Illya. also TA wouldn't of ran away when Kirei was about to drop him in round 2 by exorcising him, since he could've blitzed him. on screen feats of dragged out fights and story points are not outliers. outliers and hyperbole are statements contradicted by a massive amount of other statements and feats that fit the context of the story, like MHS and LS statements.

Zero saber was weak so i mean it doesn't help you and if you talk about berserker bullet they are like enhanced in all aspect so speed too.

Zero Saber was arguably stronger than Rin's Saber because while Rin brought out more potential in Saber, it was all dumped into her luck stat. physically Zero Saber is superior due to having more speed. and a Servant is a Servant in most cases. and i have no reason to believe the speed of the bullets increased even if their power was amped.

It's not hyperbole to generate hype when it's described an enormous amount of Time + tell on material etc and like even used in thing with no hype at all lol? And like i tell most of the time the lighting/ls descriptions are more detailed than the supersonic.

you keep saying that without any proof. as someone else sent, Kirei was literally struggling with bullets in his prime and he can easily keep up with faster Servants. those aren't just statements. those are undeniable feats with statements to back them up.

In fgo no servant struggle with bullet so i don't see how it will counter the argument of powercreep.

speed of sound arrows. both from that statement and the feat I sent. also in Nero's singularity Servants were having issues fighting an army of humans in the sense of they were able to easily defeat them but not fast enough to stop Nero's army from also taking casualties. "powercreep" is not an argument when that same series has low showings and some of the older works with solid feats and statements to back them up are still canon to it.

It's the inverse the story of fgo fell apart if they are this low in speed lol.

you say this without any evidence so it can be dismissed.

Like one more time pratically all the people and even nasu recognize multiple powercreep in fgo so trying to use fate zero/stay night will not help (like even kirei will surely get a power up in lb7)

the "powercreep" likely has to do with beasts and gods. not Servants magically getting stronger. after all, ignoring the Extra series which is in a league of its own, beasts and gods are stronger than what the original older Fate series have shown.

Like one more time that you don't acknowledge it doesn't change the fact that the powercreep for servant in all aspect exist and is recognize by all.

"recognized by all" is irrelevant because majority opinion is irrelevant, especially when you factor in that most of the fanbase hasn't even read most Nasu works and don't know much about it at all beyond mainline Fate series and some adaptions that don't properly tell the original stories. not to mention even then, there are a lot of people that reject these speed ratings for Servants and a lot of people consider them supersonic. you really shouldn't be using this argument. it not only isn't a valid argument, but majority opinion being in favor of anything past supersonic is already shaky from my experiences.

We will probably continue this forever so better to stop

i mean if you reply to me to try and counter my points, i will also respond in kind. just the way it is.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

For the last part no void can't do it in her ryougi body. As it a thing when reaching the "place" Root. If void had this she would just have passively erased the verse when coming

I'm not saying it will passively erase the verse, just that anyone who touches the Root will automatically be absorbed and erased. She can't do it in Ryougi's body but not when she's part of the Root.

 

[Kenboxx]

They are way less low feat number, the bigger just being tomoe case in term of combat.

Servant with A rank and below can burn with travel speed. Karna is Ex rank and
t can't be an hyperbole or an outlier it's litteraly a skill description a part of the lore of his class and appear in his material.

You know author do? We have litteraly servant Moving only above human speed (like when cu is chasing a cars) but yet can combat in way higher speed, it's like a common thing that everyone know about.

We litteraly have the feat in the event, the skill description telling it, and the material telling it, stop talking about hyperbole or outlier when it's clearly not one, pls stop hyperbole for each feat that you don't like.

You ignore consistent detailed feat too and choose to use only the low interpretation one.

Kirei have keep only with like one of the weakest servant it exist how that even an argument and he didn't even struggle with bullet.

He doesn't only talk about about Beast as even the feat of servant got better ( + we have like servant fighting the beast you talk....) except if you think that the description of servant being only jet fighter level is still credible in fgo.

Did you even read my last reply yes Kirei does have problems with bulllets you and the other guy used that anime only scene of Kirei blocking bullets with black keys that did not happen in the light novel understand at no point does Kirei knock out a large amount of bullets he not fast enough to do something like that

Kirei instinctively raise his arms to shield his head before he understood what was going on. A rain of 9mm bullets showered unceasingly upon him. His sleeves, made of Kevlar and covered in protective sigils, barely managed against the force of the bullets. Kirei was stunned.

Kirei has to use his bullet proof clothes to deal with bullets that's why he always covered his head when he was fighting people with guns

Even the sleeves of the monk’s robes were made from thick Kevlar filaments. It was covered seamlessly with the Church’s special protection spells. 9mm caliber pistol rounds Sensing that Kirei was bulletproof from head to top, Maiya immediately tossed the Calico and pulled out the combat knife located near her thigh

The novel said during his fight with Maiya that Kirei could be taken out by two gun men shooting from different spots

From zero light novel if there were two gunners from the start, it was entirely possible to take out Kirei if a coordinated crossfire was used\

Kirei peak as a human it's a strong magus. (Who doesn't struggle with bullet contrary to what you tell) so keeping with some servant before powercreep i don't see the problem.

Kirei is a peak human who could be taken out by bullets and has to use his cloths to deal with low cailbur bullets or they would kill him sense he's not fast enough to dodge them and had to use two command seals to deal with a more powerful gun and could not just dodge it

As I already said that scene was ufotable not caring about the power levels of the characters in order to make the fight look flasher Kirei at his best is a bullet timer

Zero saber was weak so i mean it doesn't help you and if you talk about berserker bullet they are like enhanced in all aspect so speed too.

What makes you think Saber is weak if your talking about her not being able to grab her sword because of Lancer that should not stop her from easily dodging gun fire sense she can still use mana burst that fact is the bullets did give her problems due to their speed and Saber during fight zero is way stronger then when she had Shirou has her master

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Crimson wait for the release of L5.2.

I don't mind that, but delayed the profiles creation is what make me so impatient

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Kirei and Kiritsugu are vastly superior to Rin even when not at their prime. and Rin in the VN was described to have speed on par with Saber and caught Caster off guard. they are clearly Servant level and can easily keep

I'd rather not get into this again but, TA isn't exactly an impressive servant every half decent servant he goes up against wiped the floor with him Lancer, Saber, Rider and Archer all kinda beat him up and TA has to rely on the shadow to get the Job done against all but one of them

Even if we look at other Masters that are CQC heavy Kuzuki got fodderized by Archer and if you're gonna make the argument that he took on Saber then you'd be right but then again she was Weakened and caught by suprise so theres that, plus Archer did beat him right after hed lost his master and then that same Archer got overwhelmed by Saber who finally got herself a decent master

Plus I mean Caster is Caster Medea isn't exactly the best example to use for Combat Speed plus Rin did catch her off guard and look yeah I don't wanna say it since this site seems to scale servant speed using AGI stats but those tend to be useless half the time like how Gilgamesh supposedly has a C-Rank AGI stat but when describing how his stats were in Strange Fake they were said to be on Par with Alcides who's A and B all around or how Saber supposedly has a B-Rank AGI stat but has fought with Diarmud who's A+

That said I don't think perspectives are gonna change here one side believes in the power creep the other side doesn't we'll just have to see which side gets more votes in the end

 

[CrystalValley]

I'd rather not get into this again but, TA isn't exactly an impressive servant every half decent servant he goes up against wiped the floor with him Lancer, Saber, Rider and Archer all kinda beat him up and TA has to rely on the shadow to get the Job done against all but one of them

TA's lack of skill and proper weapons are what makes him bad. his physical stats are actually a high though and he has A agility.

Even if we look at other Masters that are CQC heavy Kuzuki got fodderized by Archer

he wasn't fodderized as hard as you're thinking in the VN.

and if you're gonna make the argument that he took on Saber then you'd be right but then again she was Weakened and caught by suprise so theres that

Saber actively attacked him and got dropped. it was only Rin's theory and trying to make herself feel good saying that Saber won't get dropped a second time. and Saber wouldn't of gotten beaten up by a weird fighting style if she was really LS in the first place or even MHS.

plus Archer did beat him right after hed lost his master and then that same Archer got overwhelmed by Saber who finally got herself a decent master

Archer was about to instantly kill Saber once he activated UBW to the point it said that Saber accepted death.

Plus I mean Caster is Caster Medea isn't exactly the best example to use for Combat Speed

best example? no. an example of average Servant speed? yes. almost all Servants are relative to each other in speed. Rin was compared to Saber's speed, who had C agility under Shirou and beat up Caster who also had C agility. so someone well beneath Kiritsugu and Kirei even out of their prime has average Servant speed.

since this site seems to scale servant speed using AGI stats but those tend to be useless

agility is fine. but not going off that Medea still reacts to other Servants with no issues at all and same with TA.

like how Gilgamesh supposedly has a C-Rank AGI stat but when describing how his stats were in Strange Fake they were said to be on Par with Alcides who's A and B all around

you'll have to send a quote on that because it's likely just talking about combat performance.

or how Saber supposedly has a B-Rank AGI stat but has fought with Diarmud who's A+

Zero Saber has A agility and Servant speed gaps between agility rankings are not big.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

he wasn't fodderized as hard as you're thinking in the VN.

You say that buuuut their fight was called "just disposing of the loser" and in the fight itself he dodges Kuzuki and then stabs him
ending the fight in a single blow, so idk he got fodderized pretty hard.....

Archer was about to instantly kill Saber once he activated UBW to the point it said that Saber accepted death.

I was specifically referencing what happened before he used UBW

Saber actively attacked him and got dropped. it was only Rin's theory and trying to make herself feel good saying that Saber won't get dropped a second time. and Saber wouldn't of gotten beaten up by a weird fighting style if she was really LS in the first place or even MHS.

I don't know about that, again Archer beat him with a single blow and then straight up got beat by Saber with a decent master afterwards and "Saber wouldn't have gotten beaten if she was LS" is kinda.....cause she was caught off guard by the fact that there was a master who could go CQC and then got disoriented when he hit her in the back of the head/Neck

you'll have to send a quote on that because it's likely just talking about combat performance.

Here

Rin was compared to Saber's speed, who had C agility under Shirou and beat up Caster who also had C agility. so someone well beneath Kiritsugu and Kirei even out of their prime has average Servant speed.

I really don't know about Rin=<Saber cause she kinda did get beat up by Kuzuki and then Kuzuki got killed rather Effortlessly by Archer and then Saber beat that same Archer rather soundly until he pulled out UBW so that comparison is super shaking given her showings

TA's lack of skill and proper weapons are what makes him bad. his physical stats are actually a high though and he has A agility.

Rider doesn't have decent weapons as well and by that I mean her chains aren't NP's(at least not that I know of) but she goes toe to toe with Saber Alter pretty well dispite that and even if his stats are pretty high he still does kinda get bodied by all the Servants he comes across without the shadows help and I don't think we can equate all of it to simply Assassin not having a proper weapon even more so if his Physical stats are pretty impressive

best example? no. an example of average Servant speed? yes. almost all Servants are relative to each other in speed

I don't think the Caster servant(the class that tend to be so bad in CQC that they have an entire skill to compensate for it) who has Particularly bad CQC among said servants should be used for avarage servant speed

That said @Regidian brought up a good point in that the same way earlier storylines fall apart if you say they're LS later storylines fall apart if they aren't LS seeing as how if all the Servants who fought Holmes were Supersonic they'd get Blitzed by his Mystic codes or how if Musashi wasn't capable of reacting to SOL movment then Best girl would be history

So like I was saying earlier I don't think perspectives are gonna change here certain people believe that there has been an obvious power creep and the other side doesn't we'll just have to see which side has more support

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand explanation of the conclusions so far here please?

Also:

@Iapitus_The_Impaler @CrimsonStarFallen @Theglassman12 @CloverDragon03 @RegisNex1232 @Dragonmasterxyz @Veloxt1r0kore @ShadowWhoWalks

What do you think about this?

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Can somebody write an easy to understand explanation of the conclusions so far here please?

Also:

@Iapitus_The_Impaler @CrimsonStarFallen @Theglassman12 @CloverDragon03 @RegisNex1232 @Dragonmasterxyz @Veloxt1r0kore @ShadowWhoWalks

What do you think about this?

There are three things:

Servants should be given sub-rel to Rel Movment Speed with FTL Reactions based on the calc in the op: we are awaiting input on this issue

Void Shiki should get BDE Type 2, Outerversal Durability and Irrelevant Speed because she IS the Root:This has been agreed upon

Mash Kyrielight should get a new key with Immortality Negation for Type 8 and Conceptual Manipulation:This Has been Agred upon

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Full-on FTL is an issue (though an argument can be made for reactions) since it is highlighted multiple times that Servants can't surpass it. Not just once with BB; in the Olympus chapter Castor later on moves FTL to take Ritsuka hostage, and he was critically damaged as a result since he lacks the divinity needed to handle FTL movement. In the recent Fate/strange Fake volume, the lightspeed limitation is brought up:

Time Manipulation: A They can freely speed up or slow down any concepts (including all magical energy, physical movement, thought speed, etc) within their area of effect for as long as they have the magical energy for it. However, the increase or decrease of speed stops at reasonable levels, meaning it's naturally impossible for him to produce perfect stasis, light speed, or time reversal.

For Noble Phantasms we can find examples of FTL stuff, but many of them would not scale to normal combat speed. But there is a solid combat speed feat that would be relativistic:
Katsushika Hokusai managed to clash with Okita J Sōji while she was using her sublight acceleration jetpack at full power:

The miraculous single hit emitted by over-boosting the super MAKOTO DRIVE engine installed in the jetpack. Extreme jet acceleration beyond the physical limitations of any person causes the three-stage thrust to execute at sublight speed, which results in its velocity consuming the surrounding air and induces an outrageous power output that swallows up and annihilates the target's surroundings, despite it being a single target attack.

Yan Qing moves so fast while using his Noble Phantasm that there is not enough time for his shadow to be cast on the ground:

A shadow cloning strike that makes use of Yan Qing's unique footwork. While it may not quite reach the level of magic, this high-speed footwork is still fast enough to be imperceptible to a third party's senses, and Yan Qing makes full use of it to deliver a series of blows. It is said that he moves so swiftly that his shadow doesn't even have time to reach the ground.

---

Case Files of Lord El-Melloi has Gray reacting to cloud-to-ground lightning, and Svin blitzing electricity attacks explicitly stated to have speed on bar with lightning. This would scale to the numerous magical lightning reactions in the franchise, and solidify MHS or MHS+:

Spoiler: Lord El-Melloi Case Files, Volume 3

Suddenly, the sun darkened.

Clouds. Dark storm clouds were racing across the sky from the east, throwing a shadow over the entire Iselma estate. As we watched uneasily, the clouds spread above us with a clearly unnatural speed.

The low rumble of thunder reached us.

“-Master!”

Instinctively, I leapt towards my master and grabbed him tight.

At the same time, a powerful impact struck my whole body from behind.

It felt like a bomb. I could only wonder at how much magical energy had to be invested in that attack, for it to shake the ground under us to such a degree. While the lightning itself had flowed mostly into the ground, the aftermath was enough to throw everyone around it into shock.



[...]



He jumped.

Even so, the attackers responded as appropriate.

At once, they released the magecraft they had been holding back. Though the lightning they released was no more than a One Count spell, thanks to the enhancing effects of the Weather Manipulation, it should have had no issue tearing apart their unlucky opponent.

But instead, the hand one of them had extended forward vanished.

In the same way as his teeth had become fangs, Svin’s fingernails had likewise become razorlike claws. Perhaps even unaware of that change, the magus was relieved of his hand, and collapsed to the ground unconscious due to the sudden mass blood loss.



[...]



Having already been involved in Mineral and Compensation-type magecraft, these Primeval Batteries were a

perfect fit. In the end, they were able to lace the electricity they held with their own magical energy.

And so they gained control of a power considered to be entirely within the realms of the gods in any number of ancient lands. Utilizing that power, they accrued tremendous prosperity. And of course, in having access to that power, spells that manipulated the weather came only a few steps later.

“Rage (Gush Out).”

With those words, the electricity became an enormous hand.

The speed with which it attacked was on par with that of lightning. Powering through the resistance in the air as if it was nothing, in the blink of an eye it struck out at the boy.

In answer, the phantasmal wolf roared.

Both were techniques overflowing with magical energy. Lightning and Sound - though the medium was different, the motive force behind both Mysteries remained unchanged. In short, the greater Mystery would no doubt overwhelm it’s opponent.

As the lightning and the howl made contact, they threw off invisible sparks that deflected the rain around them, whirling together into a mess of magical energy that rapidly broke down.

It appeared to be a tie.

Though in terms of power Atram’s lightning was certainly the stronger of the two, once the rain and wind washed awaythe ensuing cloud of dust, the phantasmal wolf Svin had become still stood defiant.



[...]



“You understand that yourself, don’t you? My professor could see through a technique like that in a flash. Your magecraft is definitely polished. As a tool used to hurt people, for use in combat, it’s more than perfect. But that’s not what magecraft is for.” Svin snorted. “Rather than a magus, you’re more like a Spellcaster.”

How deeply must those words have struck home? Atram’s eyes were wide, boiling over with rage. Drawing forth many times the amount of magical energy he had used earlier through his Magic Circuits, he activated his Crest while pouring it into the Battery. The spell bought by the Galiastafamily converted that magical energy into lightning with the utmost efficiency.

It was like a dragon.

Anyone looking at that scene would surely be able to envision the jaws of that terrible creature opening wide before him.

Brooking no attempts at flight, the lightning-born dragon soared forward to swallow Svin - who disappeared a moment before contact.

With a speed no human’s eyes could follow, Svin leapt away.

Scattering branches and trunks like pinball, the gathered magi cried out in surprise as Svin fell like a shooting star, claws aiming straight for Atram’s head.



[...]



Having avoided the electric net Atram had put in place for him, he cycled his magical energy around to prepare to tear him apart. Even if he was going to use a thin layer of electricity to defend himself, all he had to do was tear through it. And so he had swung down with all his might.

But at that moment, a powerful impact hit him from the side, blowing him away entirely. Wrenching himself free of his illusionary body, Svin had just barely managed to land upright.

It wasn’t something Atram had done. The proof of that was that the electric net was torn apart yet again, prompting a shocked reaction from the dark skinned man himself.

(…what was that?!)

Though obscured by the rain and darkness, from the middle of the forest emerged a bright scarlet.

As that lone figure approached, everything went immediately quiet.

“…hey now,” the figure spoke. “Aren’t you guys going a bit overboard with the magecraft here?” As if that was some trouble for her, the woman smiled.

Hessian Lobo reacting to attacks in a handful of microseconds would fall within that range as well. I also recall EMIYA's sniper shot against Medea in the anime getting calc'd around that. In addition Musashi and Billy the Kidd claiming that they are faster than lightning.

Kirei's original plan, before he decided to remove the worms in Sakura, was to use his Command Spells to boost himself into defeating Zouken and his Servant. He had a spare Command Spell when he fought True Assassin, so this is all resolved by saying that Kirei temporarily boosted himself with the Command Spell. The Fate/Zero light novel stated that the Command Spell boosted Kirei to the level of Dead Apostle, who are established to casually dodge bullets after they are fired, which would be the context of him swatting bullets in the anime. Heck FGO has a normal chicken force a Servant to fight seriously because it was physically boosted by exposure to large amounts of magical energy.

IRC, Santa versions of Servants are considered to be much more powerful than regular Servants here (ex. Samba Quetzalcoatl supplexing Gugalanna), so no scaling with Santa Karna needed.

---

A couple supporting statements:

In Volume 4 of Fate/Apocrypha, Achille's chariot was described to move at light speed, though can be a hyperbole.

The chariot’s name was Troias Tragoidia: Tempestuous Immortal Chariot. It was a Noble Phantasm possessing divine speed that could overtake everything in this world. Who could possibly stop this comet that soared across the sky at light speed? Any living being that touched it would be instantly turned into crimson paste. And the same applied even to giant whale-sized precision machines created by humans.

The movement of Excalibur's beams was compared to a laser beam:

Excalibur converts the mana of the wielder into light, and as the sword is swung, the light is released from the tip of the blade like a laser beam and destroys everything in its path. Of course, the mana consumption is extreme, thus it cannot be fired consecutively. In the Fourth Holy Grail War, the beastly giant sea monster summoned by Caster was completely incinerated by this Noble Phantasm. Excalibur is classified as an ‘Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm” due to its magnitude and destructive power.

---

There are numerous travel speed anti-feats, so the rating should just be on combat speed and reactions. Neutral on FTL reactions, but support (sub-)relativistic combat speed. Maybe Mash's calc can be downscaled.

Support Void Shiki and Mash's key.

 

[Kenboxx]

You say that buuuut their fight was called "just disposing of the loser" and in the fight itself he dodges Kuzuki and then stabs him
ending the fight in a single blow, so idk he got fodderized pretty hard.....

Kuzuki did not have Caster reinforcement sense she died before hand from what I remember you can't even hurt a servant unless magical energy is used also Archer knew about Kuzuki fighting style Saber did not Kuzuki fighting style is suppose to be used to to take the opponent out in the first fight it's not that good if the enemy knows about it

Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?
A: I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
And even if he didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.

Like how Bazett and Kirei would lose to Kuzuki the first time around but if the they had a second fight both would beat him

I was specifically referencing what happened before he used UBW

At that point Archer no long had master to provide him with magical energy Saber on the other hand had the second best master in the war when it comes to providing magical energy to servants so Archer if he had a master would put up a better fight he still lose in close combat but he do better then what we saw and Archer being a Archer servant is real strength is with his bow so him losing to a Saber class servant in close combat

I don't know about that, again Archer beat him with a single blow and then straight up got beat by Saber with a decent master afterwards and "Saber wouldn't have gotten beaten if she was LS" is kinda.....cause she was caught off guard by the fact that there was a master who could go CQC and then got disoriented when he hit her in the back of the head/Neck

Without Caster to reinforce his body Kuzuki can't do anything to a servant you can't hurt servants without mystery to fight mystery you have to use mystery even if you used a nuke you could not hurt a servant

Saber with a decent master

Decent master?

She is not able to achieve the power she had during life, so she cannot be said to have the abilities of the greatest servant in that state. She is stronger under Kiritsugu, but her luck is decreased since even he still could not provide sufficient Magical energy, After she forms a proper contract with Rin, she displays her original abilities without being affected by the Master

Rin magical energy during stay night is around 400 to 500 units while a normal magus only has 20 to 30 units of magical energy

Tohsaka isn't consciously supplying me with magical energy yet, but it's already enough to fill me up.
If Emiya Shirou's magical energy capacity is 20 or 30, she always has 500 magical energy.
…I'm sure it would take years to fill up her whole capacity, but I bet her maximum capacity could reach a thousand.

The only other people who have more is Illya who's body is made of mostly magic circuits and is not even a human and Caster due to sucking up magical energy from the town for several days

Rider doesn't have decent weapons as well and by that I mean her chains aren't NP's(at least not that I know of) but she goes toe to toe with Saber Alter pretty well dispite that

Rider unlike true assassin is a skilled fighter that's the different between them also Rider made use of several abilities in order to keep up with Saber that you conveniently left out like her mystic eyes that are jewel ranked that slowed Saber down along with her Monstrous strength skill to amp her strength

Jewel ranked mystic eyes are op so when you combine that with her other skills she could put up a fight for a few mins even then she was going to lose without Shirou help

I don't think the Caster servant(the class that tend to be so bad in CQC that they have an entire skill to compensate for it

it depends on the Caster servant some are really good in close combat while most are not but the point is Medea can still react to other servants at the very least

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Full-on FTL is an issue (though an argument can be made for reactions) since it is highlighted multiple times that Servants can't surpass it. Not just once with BB; in the Olympus chapter Castor eventually moves FTL to take Ritsuka and he was damaged since a non-divine core cannot handle this speed. In the recent Fate/strange Fake volume, the lightspeed limitation is brought up:

Yes the BB statment is in the OP and it's only Reactions that would get to FTL not Movment speed Sub-Rel to Relativistic is based on the statment "Approaching the speed of Light, after passing the speed of sound" which would indicate they're at the lower end of approaching SOL

 

[Antvasima]

There are three things:

Servants should be given sub-rel to Rel Movment Speed with FTL Reactions based on the calc in the op: we are awaiting input on this issue

Void Shiki should get BDE Type 2, Outerversal Durability and Irrelevant Speed because she IS the Root:This has been agreed upon

Mash Kyrielight should get a new key with Immortality Negation for Type 8 and Conceptual Manipulation:This Has been Agred upon

Thank you for the summary. That is probably fine then.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

it depends on the Caster servant some are really good in close combat while most are not but the point is Medea can still react to other servants at the very least

Yeah we know there are those like Sanzang and CasCu but she still is especially weak among Caster class servants in CQC hence not a particularly avarage interpretation of servant speedv

Decent master?

Rin dude

At that point Archer no long had master to provide him with magical energy Saber on the other hand had the second best master in the war when it comes to providing magical energy to servants so Archer if he had a master would put up a better fight he still lose in close combat but he do better then what we saw and Archer being a Archer servant is real strength is with his bow so him losing to a Saber class servant in close combat

And that's exactly it Kuzuki was Fodder in front of an Archer who just killed Caster and that same Archer got beat by Saber which coincides with my earlier point

 

[CrystalValley]

@ShadowWhoWalks Kirei's original plan, before he decided to remove the worms in Sakura, was to use his Command Spells to boost himself into defeating Zouken and his Servant. He had a spare Command Spell when he fought True Assassin, so this is all resolved by saying that Kirei temporarily boosted himself with the Command Spell.

that doesn't solve anything. Kirei could've just blitzed Kiritsugu with a Command Spell amp from the start if it really made him MHS, let alone LS.

@FallenMaou2234
You say that buuuut their fight was called "just disposing of the loser" and in the fight itself he dodges Kuzuki and then stabs him
ending the fight in a single blow, so idk he got fodderized pretty hard.....

your own scans mention how he was depowered massively.

I was specifically referencing what happened before he used UBW

beating a massively depowered Kuzuki means nothing.

I don't know about that, again Archer beat him with a single blow and then straight up got beat by Saber with a decent master afterwards and "Saber wouldn't have gotten beaten if she was LS" is kinda.....cause she was caught off guard by the fact that there was a master who could go CQC and then got disoriented when he hit her in the back of the head/Neck

no amount of getting caught off guard is going to make an LS character get dropped by a supersonic character in a direct confrontation.

Here

interesting, but it's Gilgamesh of all people and I wouldn't be surprised if he found a way to amp his stats. regardless, that's a small inconsistency that isn't big enough to disregard Servant stats entirely. and even ignoring them, TA and Medea can both keep up with other Servants.

edit: just found that Gilgamesh's stats in SF are solid B and A stats.

I really don't know about Rin=<Saber cause she kinda did get beat up by Kuzuki and then Kuzuki got killed rather Effortlessly by Archer and then Saber beat that same Archer rather soundly until he pulled out UBW so that comparison is super shaking given her showings

Kuzuki > Saber > massively depowered Kuzuki

Rider doesn't have decent weapons as well and by that I mean her chains aren't NP's(at least not that I know of) but she goes toe to toe with Saber Alter pretty well dispite that and even if his stats are pretty high he still does kinda get bodied by all the Servants he comes across without the shadows help and I don't think we can equate all of it to simply Assassin not having a proper weapon even more so if his Physical stats are pretty impressive

Rider has more skill than TA and mystic eyes, along with a better NP. fact is TA can keep up with Servants still and only has issues when in close range.

I don't think the Caster servant(the class that tend to be so bad in CQC that they have an entire skill to compensate for it) who has Particularly bad CQC among said servants should be used for avarage servant speed

i'm sorry but this is all really reaching. you're basically saying two Servants (TA and Medea) who can avoid getting blitzed by other Servants can't actually compare to them in speed despite this directly being contradicted by their agility ratings and feats just to reconcile most Servants being LS because Medea and TA strictly were kept up with and can even get bested by supersonic characters. this doesn't work at all and is just a shot in the dark at trying to reconcile Servants being LS when they clearly are not.

That said @Regidian brought up a good point in that the same way earlier storylines fall apart if you say they're LS later storylines fall apart if they aren't LS seeing as how if all the Servants who fought Holmes were Supersonic they'd get Blitzed by his Mystic codes or how if Musashi wasn't capable of reacting to SOL movment then Best girl would be history

he didn't make a good point because he gave no evidence. at least you put some reason but it doesn't work. one of your own quotes debunks LS even from the OP.

musashi: "was this disrespectful of me, perhaps? though, for a great and powerful kami-sama, your blade was far too light. whether it be in speed or purpose, it wasn't of any weight at all -- to the point that somebody like me could block it as easily as if you were wielding a feather"
musashi (in thought): "what the hell was that weight and speed!? if it isn't light itself, that sort of speed isn't possible, no!?"
"or perhaps, was it truly light itself? that sort of attack would be beyond the means of even a sword-saint!"
"it was only on account of holmes-san's predictions that i was able to intercept it!"
"if not for that, mashu might've been beheaded just now!"

Musashi could only intercept the attack due to Holmes and it being light speed was already put into question since that isn't supposed to be possible.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

your own scans mention how he was depowered massively.

beating a massively depowered Kuzuki means nothing.

So you acknowledge he needs Amps to fight Servants yes? And is below them normally yes??

Edit: and there's this too

Musashi could only intercept the attack due to Holmes and it being light speed was already put into question since that isn't supposed to be possible.

Don't think a Supersonic Charchter could intercept a light speed attack even if they were told it was coming in real time cause this happened whilst they were in the middle of Combat

i'm sorry but this is all really reaching. you're basically saying two Servants (TA and Medea) who can avoid getting blitzed by other Servants can't actually compare to them in speed despite this directly being contradicted by their agility ratings and feats just to reconcile most Servants being LS because Medea and TA strictly were kept up with and can even get bested by supersonic characters. this doesn't work at all and is just a shot in the dark at trying to reconcile Servants being LS when they clearly are not.

Oh no, I'm not trying to say TA and Medea shouldn't be used as examples or anything like that I just think that Medea who is a particularly poor servant CQC wise and TA who gets beat down by majority of the other Servants he faces aren't exactly the best options to prove your point here you're better off going with Tomoe

As a whole earlier works like F/Z and FSN just got power creeped by FGO and Extra in terms of feats that's the basis for our argument here however you don't agree with that interpretation and that's fine we've already discussed this so rn were just waiting on more input

 

[Kenboxx]

Yeah we know there are those like Sanzang and CasCu but she still is especially weak among Caster class servants in CQC hence not a particularly avarage interpretation of servant speedv

Rin dude

And that's exactly it Kuzuki was Fodder in front of an Archer who just killed Caster and that same Archer got beat by Saber which coincides with my earlier point

Rin dude

You don't understand I know you where talking about Rin you calling Rin just a decent master was what I had a problem with she's easily the second best master outside of Illya when it comes to magical energy

Yeah we know there are those like Sanzang and CasCu but she still is especially weak among Caster class servants in CQC hence not a particularly avarage interpretation of servant speedv

Has for Caster her agility is c which is the same rank Archer emiya has she just lacks any combat skills magus during her time looked down her hand to hand fighting so she never trained but that does not mean she is slow she just a bad at hand to hand but that has nothing to do with speed

And that's exactly it Kuzuki was Fodder in front of an Archer who just killed Caster and that same Archer got beat by Saber which coincides with my earlier point

Indeed when he's not being reinforce by Caster he is fodder but if Caster was still he would have lasted a lot longer I still don't see him beating Archer sense Archer knew about his fighting style but with Caster reinforcement he would not have gone down that quickly that was my point the Kuzuki that fought Saber was being amp by Caster magecraft

​

 

[CrystalValley]

So you acknowledge he needs Amps to fight Servants yes? And is below them normally yes??

he is below Archer who knows his fighting style. Saber? well he lacks the means to damage her, but i don't see why he couldn't ragdoll her a few times at first like he did initially. she just wouldn't take damage.

Edit: and there's this too

hyperbole from the inexperienced Shirou. otherwise you're saying Caster didn't amp his fist at all and the prior statements are invalid.

Don't think a Supersonic Charchter could intercept a light speed attack even if they were told it was coming in real time cause this happened whilst they were in the middle of Combat

depends on the distance and if they reacted before the action was initiated. and LS was already heavily put into question in that due to how impossible it was.

Oh no, I'm not trying to say TA and Medea shouldn't be used as examples or anything like that I just think that Medea who is a particularly poor servant CQC wise and TA who gets beat down by majority of the other Servants he faces aren't exactly the best options to prove your point here you're better off going with Tomoe

TA and Medea not being skilled enough in CQC to handle most Servants means nothing when talking about speed. they have the speed to keep up. therefore keeping up with them and being able to land hits disproves Servants being LS, since people that struggle with bullet timing (but can still do it) like Kirei and Rin and defend and and land hits on those Servants. Servants are not these untouchable gods in fate that no magus stands a remote chance against that can speedblitz everyone. a strong magus can easily keep up with the average Servant. they're just horribly equipped to actually win in most cases. characters like Ritsuka also can keep track of his Servants since he commands them and can see what's going on. and he's clearly not LS or anywhere near that.

As a whole earlier works like F/Z and FSN just got power creeped by FGO and Extra in terms of feats that's the basis for our argument here however you don't agree with that interpretation and that's fine we've already discussed this so rn were just waiting on more input

powercreeped by Extra? sure considering the strongest ones can pull out a win against Ryougi, which wouldn't ever happen with normal Servants. and MMC Servants are the strongest Servants we've seen to date no contest. but Extra is a whole different beast entirely. GO's powercreep is only in higher tiers like Beasts and stuff, which Servants can still contest. (though on this site they can't for some reason due to the ratings). but yeah, GO's power creep isn't due to Servants being consistently better. not really coming back to this to debate you since we left this alone. but i'm just explaining how Extra being a powercreep doesn't really apply to GO at all and is something entirely different that we haven't seen before or since.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

that doesn't solve anything. Kirei could've just blitzed Kiritsugu with a Command Spell amp from the start if it really made him MHS, let alone LS.

The thing is that Kiritsuga was FTE to Kayneth with his speed boost, when Masters are generally able to perceive Servants fighting. Hence Kiritsuga's speed amp is considered Servant level.
There is an increasing list of Magi who are capable of keeping up with Servants in speed. Tsukihime and Mahōtsukai no Yoru has non-Magi keeping up with DAA level speed.

Musashi could only intercept the attack due to Holmes and it being light speed was already put into question since that isn't supposed to be possible

As far as we know, Holmes warned her that an attack is coming, unless Holmes (who incidently shoots beams of light dodged by Sigurd) has additional abilities we don't know of such as telepathy. Musashi still had to move her body to parry a light speed attack and made it look good.

If the attack was not decently close to light speed there is no point in Musashi suspecting it is light speed. Pollux later on acknowledges that the siblings have the authority to move at light speed, but it is dangerous for Castor to go beyond that due to his lack of divinity.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

You don't understand I know you where talking about Rin you calling Rin just a decent master was what I had a problem with she's easily the second best master outside of Illya when it comes to magical energy

Ummm sure then she's a super amazing master the intent there wasn't to say Rin isn't a talented Magus but rather to point out that Saber had been Weakened as a result of having an inept Magus as a Master

GO's powercreep is only in higher tiers like Beasts and stuff, which Servants can still contest. (though on this site they can't for some reason due to the ratings). but yeah, GO's power creep isn't due to Servants being consistently better. not really coming back to this to debate you since we left this alone. but i'm just explaining how Extra being a powercreep doesn't really apply to GO at all and is something entirely different that we haven't seen before or since.

The intent there was just to point out how things have escalated since FSN and that said there isn't any one servant that can contest a Beast unless you're talking a Grand or Gilgamesh but he has super Space time Sword of GG and G.O.YEET, usually there tends to be a lot of special circumstances that go into fighting a Beast like Kiara and Goetia being Weakened respectively or Hassan there to apply the concept of death and dragging her into the underworld etc but in my opinion there's no denying servant Feats have improved but well we've already talked about that

Plus even then I mean two Servants did Literally go FTL in Canon and we know that any movement speed that is SOL/FTL will burn them up but conversely that means everything before then is free game I believe

 

[CrystalValley]

The thing is that Kiritsuga was FTE to Kayneth with his speed boost, when Masters are generally able to perceive Servants fighting. Hence Kiritsuga's speed amp is considered Servant level.

but his guns aren't.

There is an increasing list of Magi who are capable of keeping up with Servants in speed.

pretty much all magi can keep up with Servants in speed to some extent. them not standing a chance in most situations was almost never due to speed.

Tsukihime and Mahōtsukai no Yoru has non-Magi keeping up with DAA level speed.

Fate does not scale to either of these series, since feats and later showings dwarf Servants, like consistent lightning timing and mid-tier Tsukihime/Melty Blood characters shrugging off moons getting slammed into them and physically destroying Nrvnqsr, with 510 of his lives requiring the power to obliterate a continent let alone all 666 or the 999th beast. at most you could make the argument that normal DAAs are far weaker than the ones we see in Tsukihime, since those are some of the strongest even among the elite like Wallachia and Nrvnqsr, but even that is iffy. Fate has too many low showings that are consistent to where the story relies off them to scale them to their much more powerful and faster predecessors that actually stay largely consistent.

As far as we know, Holmes warned her that an attack is coming, unless Holmes (who incidently shoots beams of light dodged by Sigurd) has additional abilities we don't know of such as telepathy. Musashi still had to move her body to parry a light speed attack and made it look good.

assuming a beam in fiction automatically equals light speed just doesn't work and makes so many fictions fall apart due to that line of thinking. Musashi could've blocked it before the attack actually launched and the attack itself being ligh tspeed was already put into question and could be hyperbole or at worst an outlier. you cannot deny the enormous amount of feats and statements that put Servants in the supersonic ranges.

If the attack was not decently close to light speed there is no point in Musashi suspecting it is light speed.

Musashi wouldn't be fast enough to properly comprehend if something is anywhere near light speed in the first place to be a proper judge. and someone requiring authority to move at LS really shows this isn't normal.

@FallenMaou2234 The intent there was just to point out how things have escalated since FSN and that said there isn't any one servant that can contest a Beast unless you're talking a Grand or Gilgamesh but he has super Space time Sword of GG and G.O.YEET

i didn't say any singular Servant, but you hold off Beasts multiple times in GO, even if you cannot actually defeat them. and you can't say it's only gameplay, otherwise the fights wouldn't of happened at all.

usually there tends to be a lot of special circumstances that go into fighting a Beast like Kiara and Goetia being Weakened respectively or Hassan there to apply the concept of death and dragging her into the underworld etc

to beat them, yes. but a group of Servants can still hold Beasts off for a short period.

Plus even then I mean two Servants did Literally go FTL in Canon and we know that any movement speed that is SOL/FTL will burn them up but conversely that means everything before then is free game I believe

all FTL "feats" seem to rely on statements claiming they are FTL. I would be fine with this if we didn't see on screen Servant level characters struggle with bullets and even GO has its own low showings. and what do you mean everything before that is free game? everything before the not being able to go LS? that's extreme cherry picking.

 

[John985]

Guns in fiction arent 1=1 in irl.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

all FTL "feats" seem to rely on statements claiming they are FTL. I would be fine with this if we didn't see on screen Servant level characters struggle with bullets and even GO has its own low showings. and what do you mean everything before that is free game? everything before the not being able to go LS? that's extreme cherry picking.

Ummm Castor actually went SOL, Houksai parried attacks from J Souji who's stated to be Sublight Speed, Mash dodging Lasers, every servant who's ever fought Holmes and his Light beam shooting Mystic codes and Melt went FTL as well that's what I was referring to and I don't know if we have people going SOL/FTL they had to accelerate to get there hence something like moving at Sub-Rel to Possibly Rel+ speeds is proven to be possible as a result of that

 

[FallenMaou2234]

assuming a beam in fiction automatically equals light speed just doesn't work and makes so many fictions fall apart due to that line of thinking. Musashi could've blocked it before the attack actually launched and the attack itself being ligh tspeed was already put into question and could be hyperbole or at worst an outlier. you cannot deny the enormous amount of feats and statements that put Servants in the supersonic ranges.

But it isn't stated to fire "beams" its stated to fire "Beams of Light" so I think we can interpret Holmes' mystic codes as being able fire beams that are LS, plus if you look at the feat description it says "Castor attacks" first and then Musashi blocks I don't think a Supersonic charchter is capable of blocking attacks that have already been launched at SOL

 

[CrystalValley]

Guns in fiction arent 1=1 in irl.

guns that are exact models of our real life guns with the same mechanics are not MHS or LS.

@FallenMaou2234 Ummm Castor actually went SOL

Caster is a vague description that could mean several characters and that's a vague claim.
edit: saw that you said Castor and not Caster. what feat?

Houksai parried attacks from J Souji who's stated to be Sublight Speed

statements are valid normally but fall flat in the face of feats, especially in combination with more statements backing up those feats.

Mash dodging Lasers every servant who's ever fought Holmes and his Light beam shooting Mystic codes

assuming random beams of light and lasers are light speed is extremely fallacious and would break a lot of fiction. you could apply this reasoning to anyone in fiction that has dodged some vague beam or laser.

and Melt went FTL as well

under extreme circumstances and died in the process.

and I don't know if we have people going SOL/FTL they had to accelerate to get there hence something like moving at Sub-Rel to Possibly Rel+ speeds is proven to be possible as a result of that

accelerating to LS over an unknown period of time isn't a proper speed rating and definitely not combat related.

But it isn't stated to fire "beams" its stated to fire "Beams of Light"

again this is too vague to be taken literally and we have a mountain of anti-feats in conjunction. Fate consistently in almost every series has a few very minor LS hyperbole statements that are contradicted by a massive amount of supersonic ones from those exact same series. GO is no different.

it says "Castor attacks" first and then Musashi blocks I don't think a Supersonic charchter is capable of blocking attacks that have already been launched at SOL

that makes the statement of it being LS fall flat considering LS was already put into question and it was from Musashi's point of view. and a supersonic character would not be able to truly judge if something is anywhere near light speed or not.

here's the main difference right now. bullet timing and struggling with bullets is not only repeatedly stated, but explicitly shown by Servant level characters. anything in the LS range has been few and far between and rely purely on statements to even start considering them being that level. this gets shattered with blatant easy to see normal guns being struggled to get blocked or dodged and a nigh infinite amount of statements backing up these blatant on screen feats. even TAs dirks were compared to the speed of bullets, which backs up Kirei's previous on screen bullet timing struggles. the old stories fall apart because these are on screen feats backed up with countless amounts of evidence. GO does not considering it also has these same statements and then some few LS statements that are just statements and nothing else that are contradicted by the rest of Fate.

 

[HyperZero95]

even TAs dirks were compared to the speed of bullets

They are actually stated to travel slower than sound, so they aren't even bullet level. Which explains why Kirei at his weakest could deflect them.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Caster is a vague description that could mean several characters and that's a vague claim

Actually it's isn't a typo, Castor is one of the Gemini Twins (Dioscuri) alongside Pollux

 

[John985]

guns that are exact models of our real life guns with the same mechanics are not MHS or LS.

Yes even if they have the same name and model, guns in fiction isnt 1=1 to IRL.