Amitabha-Sized Touhou Revisions (Previous Thread Merging)

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bold. Go to the corner and think about what you've done, young man.

DN.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Confluctor

 

[Confluctor]

Each card granted the abilities and characteristics of the characters and things they were based on, yeah. Them noticing the cards is essentially the what kickstarts the plot in TH 18.

I see. Preferably a longer explaination should be added when adding these abilities. So it makes it easier for others to get it.

I'm not sure if this context helps at all, but the core of all youkai come from their mind, so much so that destroying or replacing their mind would essentially kill them. It makes sense that Reimu's gear can harm the mind since it's her job to exterminate Youkai, and that's most effective way to kill them.

This also ties into how it's worth mentioning that beast Youkai in particular would be more resistant to said mental damage, compared to other types of Youkai. At least that's how I'd see it.

Dream souls are floating pink orbs that are a considered a type of phantom, and each one is the physical embodiment of a dream.

Also, the resistances come from being hit by dreams souls in the later games, without having the same effects happen.

So, if I get this straight...

Basically these phantoms are physical embodiment of dreams, but the main cast can tank those ones, right?

Not sure if this was posted the other day, but is there a gif/video/manga panel where they tank this? I don't remember seeing it.

Yuyuko has definitely fought people in a few story mode routes in the fighting game. That should qualify them for it.

Given that ghosts have the natural ability that makes nearby things die, anyone who has not touched her, but at least come into very close contact, would likely count as having resisted the effects too, I believe.

I see, I think adding relevant fights and longer explains might be better in the future.

In one of the sources above, when comparing the difference between phantoms and ghosts, it describes how phantoms can affect one's mood just by being near you, and then follows up by explaining how instead ghosts cause everything around them to die. So in the same way that phantoms have passive, aoe affects on people, ghosts have a passive, aoe type of death manipulation on people.

What is the range for the death/emotion thing?!

Those are all just subsets of mind manipulation, though. This statement is the only thing supporting any kind of resistance. OverlordDonnelly's explanation is good too though.

I mean, yeah, but the potency is extremely different and can give you different resistances or whatever.

So, Doremy is a character who can wield and weaponize the same dream souls as shown in the manga in one of the fighting games. The omake.txt says they're dream souls, and ZUN has said that the pink blobs Doremy holds are dream souls (he even acknowledges that they're the same ones as in the manga). This is important because quite a few of Doremy's attacks throw dream souls at her opponent. Since numerous characters fight her in their respective story routes (or Doremy's own routes) and didn't get affected by any of the dream soul hax, they should resist it. It's kinda difficult to find footage of every character listed getting hit, because the game in question has a swap out mechanic and pre-existing videos aren't guaranteed to even have Doremy out in front. However, every character listed did in fact canonically fight Doremy, and this IS her primary means of attack, so I hope this is good enough?

Makes much more sense, thanks.

Also are there any manga panels or videos of someone fighting her? Adding that to this kind of explaination would be much better on the file.

Sure. The entire 3rd and 4th stages of SA take place in Former Hell (videos of each, for reference), here you can see characters standing around in Former Hell just fine, and here we see Reimu in Hell existing just as a soul separated from her body, yet she's totally fine.

Better

Yes. As stated in her SCoOW profile, ghosts passively kill everything around them. And, well, Yuyuko's a ghost. Same goes for physical touch.

Thanks, should be good now.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Yes. As stated in her SCoOW profile, ghosts passively kill everything around them. And, well, Yuyuko's a ghost. Same goes for physical touch.

I agree with solid resistance to Death Manipulation now given this new evidence.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean, yeah, but the potency is extremely different and can give you different resistances or whatever.

Does the potency matter? Wouldn't it just be one layer of resistance regardless? And if we are suggesting that this could be other abilities besides mind manip, what do you think would fit best?

Makes much more sense, thanks.

Also are there any manga panels or videos of someone fighting her? Adding that to this kind of explaination would be much better on the file.

Doremy hasn't shown up in any manga. Here's an example from one story route and one from another, both of which show characters getting directly hit by dream souls. I hope this works well enough? I doubt I'll be able to find identical footage for every character, though.

 

[Confluctor]

Does the potency matter?

It does. Especially if people want to use them in versus threads and somesuch

Wouldn't it just be one layer of resistance regardless?

Nah why?

And if we are suggesting that this could be other abilities besides mind manip, what do you think would fit best?

Really really hard to say because of how vague is. Especially since there are no feats of it, idk, I would personally just ignore it until we get actual feats of it.

Doremy hasn't shown up in any manga. Here's an example from one story route and one from another, both of which show characters getting directly hit by dream souls. I hope this works well enough?

Yeah definitely works, thanks

I doubt I'll be able to find identical footage for every character, though

Would be a lot of work, but if you can, that would be great

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It does. Especially if people want to use them in versus threads and somesuch

Nah why?

I mean, one layer of resistance is kinda the default, right? Not like we can go any lower, or any higher if we lack direct feats.

Really really hard to say because of how vague is. Especially since there are no feats of it, idk, I would personally just ignore it until we get actual feats of it.

Well, idk how convincing this will be, but the core of a youkai's body is its mind, and said mind is generally very weak to attacks (such as possession). Since PMiSS describes beast youkai as being more resilient to mental attacks than regular youkai, would this be enough for resistance to possession, since that was one specific example of a 'mental attack'?

Yeah definitely works, thanks

Would be a lot of work, but if you can, that would be great

I'll ask around in the scaling server.

 

[Confluctor]

Well, idk how convincing this will be, but the core of a youkai's body is its mind, and said mind is generally very weak to attacks (such as possession). Since PMiSS describes beast youkai as being more resilient to mental attacks than regular youkai, would this be enough for resistance to possession, since that was one specific example of a 'mental attack'?

If it's from the same feat - or group of feats - I suppose a possible possession resistance could work. But I still think it's very vague, especially the mental attack thing. It could mean just about anything.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The statements come from different sources, so I guess that rules that out.

 

[Confluctor]

That's unfortunate

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In any case, have we come to a conclusion on all the resistances/hax, or is there something I'm missing?

Beyond that I think the main thing we still need is another opinion on the Sanzu River feat?

 

[Confluctor]

What's that feat? I don't think I saw that

 

[Shmooply]

Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.

When do Yukari and Doremy fight, actually? I've checked both Doremy and Yukari's scenarios in AoCF, and it doesn't look like they ever fight eachother in their respective stories.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

This is everything related to the feat. Griffin already agreed to it, but said we should probably get a second opinion before applying it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

When do Yukari and Doremy fight, actually? I've checked both Doremy and Yukari's scenarios in AoCF, and it doesn't look like they ever fight eachother in their respective stories.

Sumi and Doremy's scenario, stage 4.

 

[Shmooply]

of ******* course i forgot doremy has two scenarios

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

of ******* course i forgot doremy has two scenarios

AoCF's plot is just Like That.

 

[Shmooply]

AoCF's plot is just Inception but 2hoe.
Anyways, all that's left to evaluate is the Sanzu River stuff, right?

 

[Confluctor]

Oh, speed... Count me out lol. I hate that stat.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh, speed... Count me out lol. I hate that stat.

weak

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, that's understandable.

If everything else has been accepted, I can get to work on the edits while we figure out what to do about the Sanzu stuff.

 

[Confluctor]

yeah everything i agreed with should be good IMO.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Oh, speed... Count me out lol. I hate that stat.

On one hand, no calcs to worry about. On the other, infinite speed shenanigans.

Well either way, we really appreciate all you've done for us so far. Thanks!

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't Promestein explicitly reject infinite speed for Touhou based on the Sanzu river previously?

The other accepted revisions above should probably be fine to apply though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, she did agree to infinite speed Touhou based on other feats. Her primary issue with the Sanzu River feat was that, despite agreeing to it having an inherently infinite width, she believed that the river's width was being adjusted by another character. However, I've provided significant evidence that the character in question did not adjust the river's width at the time the feat was performed, as not only does the game explicitly state that she did not, but it would also be very out of character for her to do so.

Basically I'm just giving this feat another attempt because I felt not every point was covered, and I just didn't bother dealing with it at the time since back then we got infinite speed from another feat anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It still seems best if you PM Promestein about it first to get a go-ahead.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, I am likely to be very busy with edits for the time being, so if someone else could reach out, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, I don't think I'll be able to continue editing tonight due to general tiredness and stress. I will pick back up tomorrow, or sooner if at all possible.

I really gotta stop making verse-wide revisions, this shit is gonna kill me one day

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Where 2-C

Okay, I don't think I'll be able to continue editing tonight due to general tiredness and stress. I will pick back up tomorrow, or sooner if at all possible.

The hell, bro take care of urself, damn, 2hu isn't everything. Specially when you're doing it on a debating site.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Where 2-C

wHEN I ******* GET TO IT GOD DAMN

The hell, bro take care of urself, damn, 2hu isn't everything. Specially when you're doing it on a debating site.

I mean, to me it is. I joined this site solely for Touhou, not to mention how much the series means to me outside of VSBW.

also don't call me bro, did we not go over this shit earlier in the thread?

Anyways I'm kinda back from the dead, and will get back to editing shortly.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

OnsokunoSonic:

We have installed useful preferred gender pronouns that appear beneath our usernames now, so it is best if you try to remember to check them for how people here want to be addressed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's just about everything I believe. That means we only need more input on the Sanzu River crossing feat, and then we can close this.

By the way, in regards to my topic ban, Malomtek has not responded in like 4 days so I think it's a little ridiculous to keep me indefinitely topic banned based solely on his lack of messages.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I said, the two of you need to try to reach an agreement regarding what you respectively need to do in order to be able to discuss in a civil manner first. After that has been done, you can make a statement together, and get your topic bans lifted. Other staff members wanted to ban you instead, so that was the least bad option.

If you said something rude to him in your previous PMs, you probably need to try to make up with him in order to get him to continue.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's the issue though. Can't exactly come to an agreement with him if he won't even respond.

 

[Antvasima]

I modified my previous post while you replied.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean, he never took issue with anything in my last post or pointed out if I did say something disrespectful, and I can't see anything in my last post that could even be taken that way. He could've literally just told me if there was an issue, but he didn't and is seemingly choosing to just not say anything.

And I do think it's a little absurd how he'll continually post walls of text in threads such as this for days at a time yet somehow completely ignore a single PM, doubly so since I'm the one who has to suffer for it.

 

[Antvasima]

I will send him a PM about that he needs to make an effort.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you, I appreciate it.