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Sure, give me a bit to read over this and I'll give my thoughts
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A re-scaling about DMC's Big Bad
- Thread starter Cyberblader90
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I am a bit uneasy about Kamiya's statements but I do agree with going on a case-by-case basis for his statements.
Besides one of the Editing Rules said this point:
In any case, I am largely fine with the proposals of the OP.
Besides one of the Editing Rules said this point:
- Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.
In any case, I am largely fine with the proposals of the OP.
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So I have to say this, in general, I don't like to assist when it comes to using raw statements from another language and then having them translated. My complete lack of knowledge on Japanese leaves me unable to verify accuracy or anything like that in those instances, so I will not comment on that portion of the OP.
Past that I don't agree with the evidence for Demon Energy warping time on a universal scale. From what the scans show, a city has been taken and had its time-space warped to a degree that time paradoxes are forming and while its called infinte, this was originally just a city and due to the presence of TIme paradoxes and janky time-space and calling it a circle I believe more that this is just a time-space that has been looped and gives the impression of being infinite.
Twitter statements, I don't think those should be used as support at all. Simply responding to the question about if Mundus was creating the stars and constellation with universe neither answers the question being asked nor can it really be used to mean anything else without trying to assume that he was trying to say something more.
Demon realm collapsing due to the defeat of Mundus and then being stopped from collapse due to the help of Dante, looks like a pretty solid stabilization feat for the both of them. Five minutes comes off as a short enough time-frame for it to qualify.
And that's pretty much my input on all of this.
I think if others agree that those scans check out and with that stabilization bit, that I think I can support this being a universe level feat.
Past that I don't agree with the evidence for Demon Energy warping time on a universal scale. From what the scans show, a city has been taken and had its time-space warped to a degree that time paradoxes are forming and while its called infinte, this was originally just a city and due to the presence of TIme paradoxes and janky time-space and calling it a circle I believe more that this is just a time-space that has been looped and gives the impression of being infinite.
Twitter statements, I don't think those should be used as support at all. Simply responding to the question about if Mundus was creating the stars and constellation with universe neither answers the question being asked nor can it really be used to mean anything else without trying to assume that he was trying to say something more.
Demon realm collapsing due to the defeat of Mundus and then being stopped from collapse due to the help of Dante, looks like a pretty solid stabilization feat for the both of them. Five minutes comes off as a short enough time-frame for it to qualify.
And that's pretty much my input on all of this.
I think if others agree that those scans check out and with that stabilization bit, that I think I can support this being a universe level feat.
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I'm not gonna deal too much with this but:
Even without going into the "demonic energy is 4d" as that weird thing was done in another thread, that statement is incorrect, the correct one would be "demonic energy can be used to accomplish 4d feats" (even though this ain't true either I'm just gonna assume it is).
In other words just cus it can be used to do 4d stuff doesn't mean any feat done with it it's 4d.
Which means it's not proof that the universe creation in this feat is a low 2-c feat. It's a 3-A feat at most until you find legit proof that a whole timeline was created along with that universe.
Conclusion: That whole argument even at face value without fact checking and going into debunking stuff, doesn't give low 2-c as the proof for the timeline being created just isn't there.
Even without going into the "demonic energy is 4d" as that weird thing was done in another thread, that statement is incorrect, the correct one would be "demonic energy can be used to accomplish 4d feats" (even though this ain't true either I'm just gonna assume it is).
In other words just cus it can be used to do 4d stuff doesn't mean any feat done with it it's 4d.
Which means it's not proof that the universe creation in this feat is a low 2-c feat. It's a 3-A feat at most until you find legit proof that a whole timeline was created along with that universe.
Conclusion: That whole argument even at face value without fact checking and going into debunking stuff, doesn't give low 2-c as the proof for the timeline being created just isn't there.
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He's saying what Mundus created was a universe. Here's another tweet in Japanese that sorta clarifies what he meant.
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- Thread starter
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In response to the first point, unfortunately the book from where the statement comes from has not been officially translated. Which is why i had previously asked for translations from both a site translator, and another native speaker to make sure.
Response above from the translator in this thread that the provided translations check out.
For your second point:
User blog
aradoxIndifferent/Devil May Cry: Feats Summarized and Explained | VS Battles Wiki | FandomWe have a blog that goes a bit more over the context of argosax's feat. In context the human universe to return everything as it once was (shown in the dmc 3 manga)
For your third point, Kamiya is mainly supporting evidence only.
I will also provide a translation for the above tweet:
The former... RT
@Xephfyre
Kamiya-san, I have a question about DMC: In the final boss battle of DMC1, is the dimension Mundus was created in the same size as the entire universe of this world? Is it the same size as the entire universe, or is it a smaller dimension contained within the castle?
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Im slightly confused by this. Argosax is the one who did a 4d feat with demonic energy. Mundus is exactly equal. Heck, I dont think argosax's energy would have any aspects that Mundus does not, given that mundus was empowered by the qliphoth tree.
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For what it's worth, this looks fine to me as well. The new Japanese scans are a nice new inclusion.
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@Cyberblader90 That tweet checks out too, btw.
Basically asked by a fan if the dimension Mundus created is universe sized like ours or a small dimension contained in his castle, and he responds with "the former". Or another way of saying the first one, which just reinforces what the game guides and other materials say about what Mundus did when he and Dante fought.
Basically asked by a fan if the dimension Mundus created is universe sized like ours or a small dimension contained in his castle, and he responds with "the former". Or another way of saying the first one, which just reinforces what the game guides and other materials say about what Mundus did when he and Dante fought.
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I can confirm what QB just said. Kamiya just said the former which means the universe one. All the tweet does is reinforce what we had for mundus in the first place so its not even a big factor. I can understand the problems with japanese but it tends to either check out or help clarify certain things due to well being made in japan first.
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Demon Energy is 4D not just by feats but by existance too....because Demon World is a space-time continuum......thus Demon World is 4D construct or Low2C structure.
A better analogy would be say if a Character who has 4D Existance and universal energy say for example "Aura" then the aura too would be 4D....same here only in this case the individual is a 4D realm and its aura is Demonic Energy...which would also be 4D.
Demon World being a space-time was already accepted in last thread.
But if need be a quick summary can be provided to help understand the Cosmology.
As for Mundus's creation....its existance is entirely seperate from other realms....all other realms being separated space-times.....so it is by default a Low2C structure.
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I agree with the post, ever since the re-upgrade to Universe level I always thought the whole thing with Argosax's time dickery was justification enough for just straight-up Low 2-C
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Argosax is amalgam of lot of demons from the past....for example Griffon died on far away Mallet island more than 9-13 years ago. So the saying that range is limited to Dummary island is a bit unfair.....but its understandable since you are going off only what is in OP......
The range is definitely universal since characters like Arius already state even before Argosax was released that the "world is already warped"
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.....and the stakes only escalate when Argosax when only partially released he almost completely ends up merging the realms.
So considering all of this the effects are definitely universal not just limited to Dummary Island.
I hope that clarifies your doubt.
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Yeah but 1 dude doing 4D stuff doesn't mean all other demons are doing 4D stuff if they're using the same energy. Agrosax did some time hax, mundus created a universe, but it was never implied he created a timeline. Other demons affecting time doesn't mean Mundus also created a timeline.
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I already answered this, all 3 realms( Human, Demon and Mirror Realm are separate space-times) , Mundus busting out a separate realm will have to be a Low2C feat.....the realm does not share any connection with others....its equivalent to a Big Bang which initiates space-time and matter only in this case Mundus uses Demonic Energy and no explosion is required.
I don't know where you are going with this "not same energy" when he is literally the King of the Demon World....guy who when he was about to die made the Underworld collapse , the guy who was sealed in a Marble statue INSIDE the Demon realm ..... the guy comes out of the Statue and first thing he does is bust out a realm....
And even If I steelman you and say that he did not use the "same energy" let me remind you that Mundus slew the Old Demon King Pluto, ate the Qlipoth Fruit which is superior to the Tree which can merge the realms, Mundus didn't have control of Demon World Energy at that time and yet he won....which means his own power scales to the "energy" which will give it the same properties....
Later down the line Argosax who was an Old God only managed to stalemate Mundus , Argosax didn't have control of Demon Energy at that time but Mundus did.
Abigail is a direct rival to both of them and he didn't have control of Demon Energy at that time but Mundus did.
Same with Sparda when he defeated Mundus.
Might wanna take a guess who is Demon King of the Underworld in DMC1??
Even if they don't use "Demon World Energy" and use their own it is still scales to it....they can outright match and overpower it as shown in multiple instances....which is impossible if it isn't 4D.
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Literally none of those points prove Mundus' creation is Low 2-C, you bring up some weird scaling with him to other things other people have done. But that doesn't make the universe in this case be any more than 3-A with the current given proof. And it being another realm that's not the human world and demon world doesn't mean it has a separate timeline.
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Oh God.....the separateness of space-times was already stated and accepted on Mister6ame's Sandbox.....he even made a new one now...it was mandatory to highlight that for 4D haxxes to successfully pass through.
You even debated us on it...
If were not accepted that Demon World is not a Space-time it wouldn't be 4D and we wouldn't have 4D hax now....both feats of 4D and proof of its 4D existance was given in the sandbox.
I'll reiterate again that Demon World is 4D entity( also called Higher Dimensional Exitance) and has 4D powers....
And the "wierd scaling" was in response to your wierd claim that Mundus cannot or did not use "Demon World Energy" even though every Demon King who rules the Underworld at that point in time should be able to do that...and even if they didn't their own personal energy will still scale.
But I guess these problems that you bring are only result of us making these CRTs piecemeal in an ordered fashion for them to be small and digestable......perhaps we should have dumped every piece of evidence meticulously collected over months burning blood and sweat all in the same CRT.
But its okay....I will request the OP to include extra stuff which was left for next CRTs to be dropped here so some aspects of this can be made extra clearer than they already are...
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Again demon energy being capable of doing 4D stuff doesn't mean the feat in question is Low 2-C similar to how not every feat using demon energy is 4D. But then again, i already know the dmc ppl don't understand a single word i say, so i will just let this sit here for the reasonable people to come in, read it and make their judgement on it.
I'll see ya.
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At this point I'll even say this that...
DW does not AT ALL need 4D feats.....not at all.
It is not a 3D realm with 4D AP and Hax.....
Its a legit 4D construct because its a Space-time continuum, its aura( DW Energy) will automatically be 4D.
Same way a any character who has 4D existance will have all its attributes to be 4D.....just in this case it is a non sentient realm intead of an Individual but the logic still stands.
All the feats performed by DW Energy are just cherry on the cake.
DW does not AT ALL need 4D feats.....not at all.
It is not a 3D realm with 4D AP and Hax.....
Its a legit 4D construct because its a Space-time continuum, its aura( DW Energy) will automatically be 4D.
Same way a any character who has 4D existance will have all its attributes to be 4D.....just in this case it is a non sentient realm intead of an Individual but the logic still stands.
All the feats performed by DW Energy are just cherry on the cake.
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I get it
When people used the other Universal and Universal+ feats in the series, it was to show consistency with said Tier, and that said consistency + the translation saying it is a Universe should be way more than enough to say Mundus feat is Universal+, with Kamiya also giving his WoG that people can use if they want, even if it isn't really needed. The Dimension is separated from Human and Demon World, each one being separated dimensions aswell
The DW Energy is something literally controled by Argosax and Void/Alternate Mundus, he is even stated to be the source of this energy in his reality. With Argosax being stated multiple times to be Mundus' rival and equal (They had a War for the Demon World), and Alt Mundus being described as "Possibly even stronger" than him. If we agree that the Energy has 4D Feats, the other purpose of this thread, which is leaving them at Low 2-C, doesn't really change
When people used the other Universal and Universal+ feats in the series, it was to show consistency with said Tier, and that said consistency + the translation saying it is a Universe should be way more than enough to say Mundus feat is Universal+, with Kamiya also giving his WoG that people can use if they want, even if it isn't really needed. The Dimension is separated from Human and Demon World, each one being separated dimensions aswell
The DW Energy is something literally controled by Argosax and Void/Alternate Mundus, he is even stated to be the source of this energy in his reality. With Argosax being stated multiple times to be Mundus' rival and equal (They had a War for the Demon World), and Alt Mundus being described as "Possibly even stronger" than him. If we agree that the Energy has 4D Feats, the other purpose of this thread, which is leaving them at Low 2-C, doesn't really change
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That's not the purpose of this thread. It was already accepted. If i misunderstood and the 4D thing is the purpose of this thread then time for me to get to debunking.
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That ain't Low 2-C either.
Nope, that's just universe level (3-A)
That isn't proof that it has its own timeline.
Vietthai96
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If i'm remember, Demon World have it own law and time flow which differrent from Human World, that alone is enough for proof of Demon World have it own space-time continuum
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Already accepted in the last thread, not yet applied to the profiles for some reason, that's why I said other purpose, to remind what is already accepted and add to the profiles
Being the source of a Low 2-C energy and using it in battle is Low 2-C for pretty much obvious reasons
A dimension born at that moment, separated from every other Time-Space in the series has to have its own, otherwise it would be connected to Demon, Human or Mirror World (or other timelines, since DMC has them), which isn't the case for Mundus' dimension
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That's not enough. Even pocket dimensions can have those things.
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The energy of the universe isn't Low 2-C to begin with, and it's not "source" it's "nexus", not the same thing. As the latter doesn't give AP = to the entire thing.
Not really, it not being connected to them proves it has its own space, not it's an entire timeline.
This isn't about the demon world though, it's about Mundus' dimension. Which isn't shown to have any of those.
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Implying that Demon World is a pocket dimension.....pfft
Demon World has size that is far larger than Human World.....this already acknowledged on this site....
So yeah the reasons provided by Veit are enough.
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Wouldn't the nexus control the entire structure? Or am I misinterpreting this wrong?
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Nexus:
a connection or series of connections linking two or more things.
or
a central or focal point
In other words it's not a source, it's a very important part of something. But being a very important part of something or the most important part or even the base of something doesn't mean you're equal to the whole thing. Similar to how a main pillar of a big building isn't the building itself nor is it as strong as the building.
We had a similar thing for GetBackers. Destroying the infinity fortress (a really big building) would destroy the entire space-time, that however just means that the infinity fortress was a detrimental part of the universe not that it was as powerful/durable as the universe itself.
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nexus in this context is different. Void Mundus acts as the heart of the fused universe. Also all of the demon world energy is focused on his being. Contextually he's more so a source
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That will need an entirely different argument and proof.
The heart also doesn't qualify. Unless you want to say your heart is as strong as your entire body.
That's not what a source is. That's the reverse.
Your first sentence is saying "his source of energy is the energy of the universe", the 2nd is saying "he is a source" so make up your mind there.
Not to mention none of this has any relation to the feat in question (the dimension creation). The creation feat is a base 3-A feat, the other feats aren't gonna bump it any higher, they might bump mundus higher (if they're legit), but the creation feat will always be 3-A regardless of what you want to put mundus at from other feats, this feat is independent.
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Already done, its in the blog for the verse as part of the feats for the god tiers (same blog that people avoid for some reason and tried to use the Tweet to downgraded the verse somehow lmao)
Bad analogy when this one is literally the source of demonic power and all demons and just like the original mundus, the whole thing goes poof without him
Your first sentence is saying "his source of energy is the energy of the universe", the 2nd is saying "he is a source" so make up your mind ther
Is because of his nature, he uses the demon world energy (which is part of him at this point) while also being the source of demonic power to the already corrupted world in the second novel. So yeah, he uses it while being the source and heart of the demon world at this point.
Why are we discussing Void Mundus exactly? The feat in question is about the original Mundus
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Going poof without him doesn't mean he's the source, already explained why, twice.
Not gonna get into the rest cus this is straight facts. Idk why ppl bringing up void mundus when the feat in question has nothing to do with him.
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Just checked about SDT page in DMC wiki and I found something that dunno will help or just added to the profile.
In trivia said Dante using Majin/SDT when fighting Despair Embodied which can be found in Trinity of Fates DMC 2 videos.
But since we have History of DMC in new Devil May Cry game which is recap to the series, dunno if that statement are outlier or get retcon.
In trivia said Dante using Majin/SDT when fighting Despair Embodied which can be found in Trinity of Fates DMC 2 videos.
But since we have History of DMC in new Devil May Cry game which is recap to the series, dunno if that statement are outlier or get retcon.
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Certainly got a retcon, the novel that happens months before already has Dante defeating a Argosax level (or higher) being in Base
And in Before the Nightmare is stated that DMC2 events were a easy job
And in Before the Nightmare is stated that DMC2 events were a easy job
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At least one more staff should be enough for this CTR.
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agree with this btw
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Not necessarily a retcon outside of sorta contradicting the cutscene in 2 with Dante vs Despair Embodied. Argosax is considered equal to Mundus while we don't know truly how strong Despair Embodied was.
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"As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. Only the two sides were facing each other in the vastness of space."
Based on what's presented and while I admittedly know little on the subject of Devil May Cry (having only experienced the third game), this statement on its own would appear to be convincing of a 4-A feat, obviously with other translations resulting in something much higher, however there's just two bits that confuse me a bit with its presentation.
"Unleashing the magic power from the profound field of his mind and body, Dante transformed his body into a demon. He kicked the ground and took off into the infinitely expanding dark sky."
It may seem strange for something like this to be bothersome to me, but within the presentation of the game itself it shows Dante within the empty space full of stars, in which logically there wouldn't be anything to kick off of, and when the fight actually begins these stars are no longer present but instead they operate within the clouds where lightning strikes. To some people this could appear as the events occurring don't need to be in such are large space as it suggests it is.
I can understand the author's intent backing up the statements and that's fine, but this strange detail is leaving a strange taste in my mouth.
If someone could answer this for me adequately I don't have any other problems and I can accept it.
Based on what's presented and while I admittedly know little on the subject of Devil May Cry (having only experienced the third game), this statement on its own would appear to be convincing of a 4-A feat, obviously with other translations resulting in something much higher, however there's just two bits that confuse me a bit with its presentation.
"Unleashing the magic power from the profound field of his mind and body, Dante transformed his body into a demon. He kicked the ground and took off into the infinitely expanding dark sky."
It may seem strange for something like this to be bothersome to me, but within the presentation of the game itself it shows Dante within the empty space full of stars, in which logically there wouldn't be anything to kick off of, and when the fight actually begins these stars are no longer present but instead they operate within the clouds where lightning strikes. To some people this could appear as the events occurring don't need to be in such are large space as it suggests it is.
I can understand the author's intent backing up the statements and that's fine, but this strange detail is leaving a strange taste in my mouth.
If someone could answer this for me adequately I don't have any other problems and I can accept it.
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