50% Kurama ain't that guy (Naruto Top Tiers response)

[MinatoSparkle]

Him being Bijuu level is alright.

SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya~/>Orochimaru>Rasa>Shukaku

It isn't cope, it's literally just true that Kushina being dead for a long time means her Chakra would have less of a connection, souls are shown actively leaving the mortal plane of existence, right?

Maybe normally, but since her chakra is attached to a living being, Naruto, I don't think it's losing its connection to the world.

Wait, forgot that not didn't we see even a second of the fight, we didn't see literally any context about what happened, could be any bomb applied in any way, and Isobu was at the bottom of a lake. For all we know, Deidara just nuked the like while Islbu was asleep.

We saw the lead up to it.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh shit I can't believe I forgot this statement until now.
うちはマダラ、うちはオビト、 そして尾獣の集合体である十尾の復活･･･!!畳み掛ける様な敵の猛攻に、 ナルト達は忍史上最強の術 "忍連合軍の術”で対抗する!!

This might not apply to techniques that hadn't been introduced yet like the Shinsuu Senju or Deity Gates, but this should definitely mean that the Kurama amped Alliance>Edo Madara's Perfect Susanoo which had been shown prior to the Shinobi Allied Forces Technique. So uhhhhhhhh since PS>BSM Naruto, MKCM2 Naruto doesn't really scale to the Juubi, it's just that Kurama's chakra is a non-linear amp. Still don't think 50% Kurama scales to him, but MKCM2 Naruto probably needs a downgrade regardless.

Edit: Damn the databook says it too. ナルトの援護に忍び五大国の強者が集う! これぞ史上最強の忍術なのだ。

 

[Godernet]

Oh shit I can't believe I forgot this statement until now.
うちはマダラ、うちはオビト、 そして尾獣の集合体である十尾の復活･･･!!畳み掛ける様な敵の猛攻に、 ナルト達は忍史上最強の術 "忍連合軍の術”で対抗する!!

This might not apply to techniques that hadn't been introduced yet like the Shinsuu Senju or Deity Gates, but this should definitely mean that the Kurama amped Alliance>Edo Madara's Perfect Susanoo which had been shown prior to the Shinobi Allied Forces Technique. So uhhhhhhhh since PS>BSM Naruto, MKCM2 Naruto doesn't really scale to the Juubi, it's just that Kurama's chakra is a non-linear amp. Still don't think 50% Kurama scales to him, but MKCM2 Naruto probably needs a downgrade regardless.

Edit: Damn the databook says it too. ナルトの援護に忍び五大国の強者が集う! これぞ史上最強の忍術なのだ。

the funny thing about trying to use these literally is that it would mean Shinobi Alliance > First Form Juubi Bijuu Bombs.

and Kurama could amp the entire alliance far beyond their normal capabilities.

So you'd end up with MKCM2 Naruto > Alliance > First Form Juubi.

And even disregarding that, these statements don't have to mean AP.

"The Shinobi Allied Forces Technique" is just how Naruto is describing the unification of the Shinobi world to fight a common enemy. It's not an AP technique or a statement that's meant to be powerscaled.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

the funny thing about trying to use these literally is that it would mean Shinobi Alliance > First Form Juubi Bijuu Bombs.

Well not directly since the Juubi's not a ninja

and Kurama could amp the entire alliance far beyond their normal capabilities.

So you'd end up with MKCM2 Naruto > Alliance > First Form Juubi Bombs.

and even then these statements meaning AP is not the only way(or even the more likely way) that it can be interpreted.

All the different techniques they have is definitely part of it, but almost all of the ones they used were at least related to power, like Shadow Possession requiring you to somewhat scale to your opponent, and most of the stuff they did were physical attacks anyways like different elemental ninjutsu, Gentle Fist, Expansion jutsu, etc.

 

[Godernet]

Well not directly since the Juubi's not a ninja

Juubi Bomb is still a ninjutsu and Obito + Madara(two shinobi) are the ones forcing the Juubi to cast this ninjutsu.

Also if we really go by how the statement is worded.

You don't really have to be a shinobi to have the strongest ninjutsu in Shinobi history. Because Ninjutsu are quite literally Shinobi techniques.

Any use of a Shinobi technique by anyone would contribute to "Shinobi History"

All the different techniques they have is definitely part of it, but almost all of the ones they used were at least related to power

"Almost all" isn't enough. That still shows this isn't holistically intended to be an AP statement. So we shouldn't act as if it is one.

, like Shadow Possession requiring you to somewhat scale to your opponent, and most of the stuff they did were physical attacks anyways like different elemental ninjutsu, Gentle Fist, Expansion jutsu, etc.

a lot of these Shinobi contribute to the strength of the jutsu in different ways outside of AP.

Shikaku and the intelligence division contributed to the strength of the alliance with their planning and leadership.

Ino's Mind Transfer Jutsu contributed to their strength by relaying information and controlling Obito briefly.

Sakura and the Medical division greatly contribute to the strength of the Shinobi by healing them.

There are a lot of factors that make it very unlikely to take this as a strictly powerscaling statement.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Juubi Bomb is still a ninjutsu and Obito + Madara(two shinobi) are the ones forcing the Juubi to cast this ninjutsu.

Also if we really go by how the statement is worded.

You don't really have to be a shinobi to have the strongest ninjutsu in Shinobi history. Because Ninjutsu are quite literally Shinobi techniques.

Any use of a Shinobi technique by anyone would contribute to "Shinobi History"

Ehhh I don't think it necessarily has to be referring to anyone that existed in the time of shinobi. That's an interpretation, but the interpretation that it's referring to ninja's using them works just as well.

"Almost all" isn't enough. That still shows this isn't holistically intended to be an AP statement. So we shouldn't act as if it is one.

If a super versatile ninja is stated to be stronger than someone else, they're gonna scale in AP even if part of the reason they scale is their techniques. Also I believe when the word strength is used it's assumed to include AP.

a lot of these Shinobi contribute to the strength of the jutsu in different ways outside of AP.

Shikaku and the intelligence division contributed to the strength of the alliance with their planning and leadership.

Sure, but all the planning in the world doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to pull a plan off

Ino's Mind Transfer Jutsu contributed to their strength by relaying information and controlling Obito briefly.

Mind Transfer can be overpowered so still power related to an extent

Sakura and the Medical division greatly contribute to the strength of the Shinobi by healing them.

Fair enough, though constantly healing doesn't actively contribute to winning, just continuing to survive. The things you listed are really just auxiliary parts of the Alliance's might.

There are a lot of factors that make it very unlikely to take this as a strictly powerscaling statement.

I disagree. They're the strongest cause of versatility partially yes, but their combined assaults do have at least relative AP to other techniques.

 

[Godernet]

Ehhh I don't think it necessarily has to be referring to anyone that existed in the time of shinobi. That's an interpretation, but the interpretation that it's referring to ninja's using them works just as well.

Considering there's no way to prove one over the other lets agree to disagree there.

If a super versatile ninja is stated to be stronger than someone else, they're gonna scale in AP even if part of the reason they scale is their techniques.

Someone having a verbatim statement of being stronger than another is not the same as this, this is a statement that a collective of people unifying is the strongest ninja technique in history. There was no AP feat or actual ninjutsu being performed in what Naruto described as the Allied Shinobi Forces Jutsu, this is just how Naruto was describing the unification of the Shinobi World.

Also I believe when the word strength is used it's assumed to include AP.

Strength is a term that can have various different meanings so context is important.

Sure, but all the planning in the world doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to pull a plan off.

Kinda irrelevant to the bigger picture since as we've established strength isn't solely an AP thing as Hax, speed, jutsu versatility, and experience are all strengths that would assist a plan to work.

Mind Transfer can be overpowered so still power related to an extent

it's not overpowered via AP but resistances.

Fair enough, though constantly healing doesn't actively contribute to winning, just continuing to survive. The things you listed are really just auxiliary parts of the Alliance's might.

Exactly these are all contributing factors to the "strength" of the strongest Jutsu in history.

I disagree. They're the strongest cause of versatility partially yes, but their combined assaults do have at least relative AP to other techniques.

considering the Alliance is thousands of people that specialize in different things, that's too big of an assumption.

If the Alliance vastly outhaxed Edo Madara, they would still be "the strongest ninjutsu in history"

nothing about that statement demands that it means AP. And given the context of the scene its just unlikely.

 

[SlendVeny]

SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya~/>Orochimaru>Rasa>Shukaku

Eh, fair enough.

Maybe normally, but since her chakra is attached to a living being, Naruto, I don't think it's losing its connection to the world.

Yeah, makes sense.

We saw the lead up to it.

Ok, no way that took out Isobu in one hit. And before you bring up the "deidara took it out with a clay bomb" scan, that doesn't mean he only used the one that beat Isobu. That's like saying "Zetsu took out Juubidara with a stab." It's true, but lacks context.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Someone having a verbatim statement of being stronger than another is not the same as this, this is a statement that a collective of people unifying is the strongest ninja technique in history. There was no AP feat or actual ninjutsu being performed in what Naruto described as the Allied Shinobi Forces Jutsu, this is just how Naruto was describing the unification of the Shinobi World.

But there is, they did that huge elemental ninjutsu combination when trying to subdue Ten Tails. You say it's different, but I'm not sure it is.

Strength is a term that can have various different meanings so context is important.

I think it can either refer to AP or overall ability, but the latter, unless they have some incredible hax that allows them to take down enemies without AP, would still include it.

Kinda irrelevant to the bigger picture since as we've established strength isn't solely an AP thing as Hax, speed, jutsu versatility, and experience are all strengths that would assist a plan to work.

They definitely don't have a speed advantage over top tiers.

it's not overpowered via AP but resistances.

Debatable

Exactly these are all contributing factors to the "strength" of the strongest Jutsu in history.

Auxiliary means support or supplementary, AKA not main reasons.

considering the Alliance is thousands of people that specialize in different things, that's too big of an assumption.

If the Alliance vastly outhaxed Edo Madara, they would still be "the strongest ninjutsu in history"

But what would they do to actually beat him if they didn't scale to him in AP at all? They can stall just fine, but that's simply wasting time if they can't damage his PS.

Ok, no way that took out Isobu in one hit. And before you bring up the "deidara took it out with a clay bomb" scan, that doesn't mean he only used the one that beat Isobu. That's like saying "Zetsu took out Juubidara with a stab." It's true, but lacks context.

But I mean...Zetsu kinda did do that with one stab.

 

[Godernet]

But there is, they did that huge elemental ninjutsu combination when trying to subdue Ten Tails. You say it's different, but I'm not sure it is.

that huge elemental jutsu failed to subdue the Juubi at all. Shikaku even mentions that they didn't actually restrain it.

I think it can either refer to AP or overall ability, but the latter, unless they have some incredible hax that allows them to take down enemies without AP, would still include it.

AP doesnt have to be a contributing factor at all considering they have strength in numbers with many of them having relevant hax.

They definitely don't have a speed advantage over top tiers.

you know that's not the point.

Debatable

Auxiliary means support or supplementary, AKA not main reasons.

nothing about that statement infers this versatility was a secondary factor to sheer strength.

But what would they do to actually beat him if they didn't scale to him in AP at all? They can stall just fine, but that's simply wasting time if they can't damage his PS.

You gotta remember tho, The Allied Shinobi Forces Jutsu failed. And it was because they weren't strong enough. They couldn't damage, seal, or even restrain the Juubi effectively at all until Naruto started passing around Nine Tails Chakra.

Naruto with 50% Kurama > the Alliance is pretty blatantly shown and heavily implied.

And even Edo Base Hashirama has statements of relativity or even superiority to MKCM2 Naruto, let alone his rival's strongest ability.

Your interpretation of the Allied Shinobi Forces Jutsu just doesn't work with what the story suggests.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Godernet FRA

 

[Shadyboi0]

you gotta deep fry that take, it aint hitting

 

[LordTracer]

Godernet FRA

Arc FRA

 

[SlendVeny]

But I mean...Zetsu kinda did do that with one stab.

Yes, but there is context that explains that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

.

So...basically what I gather is that you're saying even though they're stated to be the strongest technique twice, they're actually not? Yeeeeeeah idk about that one mate. Also I was literally talking about how MKCM2 Naruto actually isn't stronger than the alliance and that his amps aren't simply Shinobi+set amount of Kurama chakra. And what is my interpretation exactly? Even if it's not raw power based, it should be the strongest in terms of overall combat ability, but you seem to not even agree with that given your response to my last point. Don't see how them failing against the Juubi means the statements are wrong, that can just mean Juubi>PS which is what I was implying.

Yes, but there is context that explains that.

Offguard yeah, doesn't change the fact that he indeed dealt with Madara with one stab.

 

[SlendVeny]

Offguard yeah, doesn't change the fact that he indeed dealt with Madara with one stab.

No, but you're missing my point. I'm not saying the premise isn't true, I'm saying the lack of context lessens the quality of the feat.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No, but you're missing my point. I'm not saying the premise isn't true, I'm saying the lack of context lessens the quality of the feat.

Meh. We see Deidara use one bomb, next time we see them a chapter later Isobu's down and the db says one bomb captured it. Seems pretty implicative to me

 

[SlendVeny]

Meh. We see Deidara use one bomb, next time we see them a chapter later Isobu's down and the db says one bomb captured it. Seems pretty implicative to me

No, it says he captured it with A BOMB, not that he only used one bomb. It just means one of his bombs was able to do it by the end of the fight.

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No, it says he captured it with A BOMB, not that he only used one bomb. It just means one of his bombs was able to do it by the end of the fight.

A still refers to a single thing, but we should stop arguing about this quite unrelated thing

 

[Avengershows]

A still refers to a single thing, but we should stop arguing about this quite unrelated thing

Do you have the Japanese for the 3 tails stuff?
Japanese doesn't have articles so depending on what it is, it could be a bomb or just bombs generally

 

[SlendVeny]

A still refers to a single thing, but we should stop arguing about this quite unrelated thing

It said he used a bomb to win. He has used a bomb to win in every fight he has won.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Do you have the Japanese for the 3 tails stuff?
Japanese doesn't have articles so depending on what it is, it could be a bomb or just bombs generally

デイダラの"起爆粘士”を受け沈黙、捕獲された。

 

[Avengershows]

デイダラの"起爆粘士”を受け沈黙、捕獲された。

Yeah this doesn't specify "a bomb" but just, like, generally his bombs. We don't know the exact amount

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah this doesn't specify "a bomb" but just, like, generally his bombs. We don't know the exact amount

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump, especially to the Kushina part

 

[Trihexa102]

Bump, especially to the Kushina part

so what would be the multiplier for sage mode , 1.5x or 2x.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

There will be no SM multiplier

 

[Deceived3596]

Sadge

 

[MinatoSparkle]

so what would be the multiplier for sage mode , 1.5x or 2x.

Wat

 

[Shadyboi0]

so what would be the multiplier for sage mode , 1.5x or 2x.

Nonexistent

 

[Trihexa102]

There will be no SM multiplier

i think it's worth getting, seeing as it definitely increases all your stats an amount.

 

[Trihexa102]

Wat

isn't that what's in the Op regarding sage mode multiplier.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

isn't that what's in the Op regarding sage mode multiplier.

Uhhhhhh no

 

[Nierre]

please please PLEASE shut up about sage mode multipliers. it does not exist. it was rejected/removed. it's completely irrelevant to this and pretty much every crt that it's been brought up in. Please just focus on the OP and stop bringing up SM's non-existent multiplier.

if you feel so passionate about it, make a CRT that brings up new information or insight on the topic.

 

[Trihexa102]

Uhhhhhh no

I mean this. Additionally, Kurama~Madara>BSM Naruto and 50% Kurama~MKCM2 Naruto currently, making Sage Mode less than a 2x boost, which is pretty insane given how much it's hyped.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean this. Additionally, Kurama~Madara>BSM Naruto and 50% Kurama~MKCM2 Naruto currently, making Sage Mode less than a 2x boost, which is pretty insane given how much it's hyped.

That's just a common sense argument, it's not for the purposes of getting a concrete multiplier accepted

 

[Deceived3596]

please please PLEASE shut up about sage mode multipliers

We will....

Spoiler

NOT!!!

 

[Tdjwo]

We will....

Spoiler

NOT!!!

No way. Blud really did a face reveal

 

[Deceived3596]

No way. Blud really did a face reveal

Nah that's KT, I'm white as a bone.