2B vs Raiden: Metal Gear Rising vs Nier Automata REMAKE

[Chariot190]

Alongside something that I seem you were ignoring, and is that, to use Blade Mode, Raiden needs to stay still in a place, he needs to first absorb energy from his enemy to use that, and that his movement speed isn't increased to say he can just move fast towards 2B and slay her . Plus, he can't interact with any of 2B's missiles due to being literally Maso/Conceptual energy, so if he tries to cut them, he's literally dead.

No he don't tho, he literally moves with blade mode on at times, even in game cutscenes, such as when he bisects gekko's and does flips and shit around them with Blade Mode on. And then there's ripper mode, which he was able to have a whole fight in. What he needs is to focus, that's the lore explanation, and it's just portrayed like it is in game because it'd be actually ******* dumb as shit and broken as **** if it worked exactly how it does in l o r e. It's tantamount to arguing a shitty route 1 pokemon scales to God because God is balanced for gameplay.

 

[Chariot190]

Also Raiden's Infinite items mitigate the gameplay weakness anyhow

 

[Comiphorous]

I don't know if we played the same game, but Blade Mode is literally you staying still while cutting shit. Ripper Mode is just the berserk state we all know, but to use Ripper Mode there you still need to stay still to apply that. Regardless, that guide doesn't say much about that, so maybe you can show me a gameplay applying bot of these features?

didn't he use blade mode in game... in the air??? where the **** was he going to go??? he's right in front of them when cutting, he's got no reason to go run a marathon with it. but yeah no, he can move with it. its like, the whole thing with ripper mode + Blade mode

 

[Comiphorous]

...If I'm showing that, it's because everyone in-verse uses the same energy of the scans. It's something already proved before, accepted, and applied. If you don't like that, then that's not my problem.

its not my issue if you have no idea the difference between the two abilities being argued here.

 

[Chariot190]

Does a cool flip while blade mode is active.



Another.

Also Raiden's vibration extends even beyond the atomic scale, it's effecting the electron's, which make UP the atoms. To make a analogy, if you made like a house, that'd be the atom, and Raiden's blade separates the bricks that make up said house. Actual sub-atomic scale. Except it goes even further, it's mentioned it actually effects on the Planck scale, which is the shortest known caliber we have in conventional means. Literally nothing is beating that except lower dimensional shit.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

No but I would say you could if your soul hax is applied and performed in a completely different way mechanically or functionally than the alleged "better" soul hax then yeah it would work because they're mechnically not the same thing and however you resisted the other, would inherently translate to the lesser soul hax even if it's technically not as good an end result, for example, WhiteSnake, his soul hax is unconventional as ****, he uses a "acid" ability that can effect noncorporal substances, and by doing this, he can transmutate and melt souls and then reshape them into the form of DISC's. Resisting soul hax isn't exactly helpful here despite it also being soul hax, what you';d actually need is the ability to resist acid manip & transmutation that have NPI, and still not really not, mechanically they're completely different to the point this isn't even arguable, she'd need good vibration res to bypass HF.

The issue is that both abilities are literally the same thing. It's not some utterly different kind of application as you are saying, no, they work with the same concepts, and are applied in the same ways. The only difference is that one has a vibration thing, while the other is also conceptual and higher-dimensional. But the essentials of affecting quantum particles, and due to that, ignoring durability, are equal, as I proved before. They aren't completely different, as you claim, they are equal in several ways.

yeah, you're right it IS a good example, because despite both being mind manip, they're two completely different things inherently and applied differently mechanically, resisting mindhax doesn't automatically encompass both. You could shrug off a mental assault from like Martian ************* Manhunter, but turn around and get mind haxed by like Ragyo or DIO because their mindhax is conventionally, mechanically and functionally utterly different, despite being, on paper, absolute trash compared to MM, resisting his stuff wouldn't actually. And vice versa, you could shrug mind hax from like Swampthing, but then get ****** by a basic ass psychic assault from Black Mask.

What I've said before, in this case they aren't different at all. Also, I really doubt that you wouldn't be able to resist some lower level mindhax if you already resisted something even worse.

And you're kinda proving a bias there, "biological based mind manip is awful compared to psionic", that isn't true, it's simply case by case dependent on the character, and of course, resisting one doesn't help with the other, and that goes both ways. Now, as I'm sure you understand by now, despite the fact that Raiden has Quantum manip, and so does 2B, mechanically, they're not even comparable,
What 2B is ******* with, isn't at all the same, hell even the end result is a tad different. She'd need good vibration res to actually res it.

I'm not saying that's totally true, and I know is a case by case. That was just with the conventional examples of the ability you mentioned. About the other stuff, well, I think I've repeated myself a lot so far.

What do you mean what does it have to do with this? It obviously has to do with the match, and the fact EMP-esque things are LITERALLY listed as a weakness for her, pretty sure magnetic stuff is too, which Raiden has fyi, he has magnetic weaponry from Monsoon.

I mean, you mentioned that like if it was part of my argument or something like that. I didn't mentioned it at all, so that's why I was somehow impressed by the way you expressed it.

It'd sure as hell work on her body at least, and that's kinda the important part, incap is indeed a win condition.

It couldn't work because the data and basically the thing that is being affected by the EMP is conceptual. Their bodies aren't totally affected by the EMPs, their data/core is.

Toss a bunch? Not like he has one, simply restrict her movements by tossing them in the paths she could go or escape to, even with time dilation she'd be closed in, and wouldn't have a way out without entering into the expansion of one of them.

The time slow works with several missiles and Danmaku, so it's not like she could easily evade it. Or even so, she can simply destroy them mid-air thanks to the pod, or create a time field around to evade them.

Even the EMP's from like 2001 in universe has over 100m AOE. And I can ascertain that the MGR ones have, at minimum, tens of meters AOE.

I mean, I don't see the grenades of the game having a lot of range to say they could reach a lot of the area, but ok.

No he don't tho, he literally moves with blood mode on at times, even in game cutscenes, such as when he bisects gekko's and does flips and shit around them with Blade Mode on. And then there's ripper mode, which he was able to have a whole fight in. What he needs is to focus, that's the lore explanation, and it's just portrayed like it is in game because it'd be actually ******* dumb as shit and broken as **** if it worked exactly how it does in l o r e. It's tantamount to arguing a shitty route 1 pokemon scales to God because God is balanced for gameplay.

I don't remember cutscenes were he is constantly using Blade Mode. Ripper Mode is only coming to my head, but that's another thing. And yes, he needs to focus, and that's the same reason he needs to stay still to use it. It's not really a game mechanic or something like that, when that's something pretty consistent in the game.

didn't he use blade mode in game... in the air??? where the **** was he going to go??? he's right in front of them when cutting, he's got no reason to go run a marathon with it. but yeah no, he can move with it. its like, the whole thing with ripper mode + Blade mode

What I've said above. Also, dude, really calm down, you seem to be really outraged. Even to the point of editing the OP to try roast me (it could even be defamation, btw). Like, it doesn't annoys me, but it's pretty pathetic you get that mad just because of a discussion here xdxdxd. Just leave the computer and take breath.

Does a cool flip while blade mode is active.

Blade Mode is literally finished at the moment of the executions. I don't see how this proves something.

Another.

Same as above.

Also Raiden's vibration extends even beyond the atomic scale, it's effecting the electron's, which make UP the atoms. To make a analogy, if you made like a house, that'd be the atom, and Raiden's blade separates the bricks that make up said house. Actual sub-atomic scale. Except it goes even further, it's mentioned it actually effects on the Planck scale, which is the shortest known caliber we have in conventional means. Literally nothing is beating that except lower dimensional shit.

That's something I've already explained before. Planck Scale isn't something new to quantum mechanics, which are even on a lower scale due to more weird scientific metaphysics regarding that thing. And even so, following the very description of Planck Scale, it's the same thing with how Maso works by messing with space-time and such. So yeah, it's still the same thing as always.

Ah yeah, I forgot to mention this, but she can just use shields made by Maso (which are put directly around she). Due to being higher-D and conceptual Raiden wouldn't be able to do anything against that, utterly making any of his attacks useless.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

Someone who has never played Katana Zero

 

[Comiphorous]

What I've said above. Also, dude, really calm down, you seem to be really outraged. Even to the point of editing the OP to try roast me (it could even be defamation, btw). Like, it doesn't annoys me, but it's pretty pathetic you get that mad just because of a discussion here xdxdxd. Just leave the computer and take breath.

im simply stating a point. you failed to show scans of 2B SPECIFICALLY resisting the correct abilities to be able to survive hits from Raiden's sword but you keep pushing that an ability that has nothing to do with his sword makes her resistant to his blade. it doesn't make sense.

simply putting that in the op has never been treated as defamation. its been done here, for reference. i think im fine. (im probably putting it a hell of a lot more bluntly but it gives the same point.)

 

[Comiphorous]

I think at this point everyone has thrown their arguments forward at this point unless any scans shows up so i think people can start voting.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

im simply stating a point. you failed to show scans of 2B SPECIFICALLY resisting the correct abilities to be able to survive hits from Raiden's sword but you keep pushing that an ability that has nothing to do with his sword makes her resistant to his blade. it doesn't make sense.

simply putting that in the op has never been treated as defamation. its been done here, for reference. i think im fine. (im probably putting it a hell of a lot more bluntly but it gives the same point.)

Literally explained that, and how both quantum abilities are basically negating durability, plus, putting scans of my claims. Now, I will just wait to see what Chariot has to say, because, he is the only one who is making consistent arguments, unlike you.

Now, well, just relax a bit broU xd.

 

[Comiphorous]

Literally explained that, and how both quantum abilities are basically negating durability, plus, putting scans of my claims. Now, I will just wait to see what Chariot has to say, because, he is the only one who is making consistent arguments, unlike you.

Biological mind manipulation and Supernatural mind manipulation both end in incap, does someone resist both types? no, most of the time they resist one or the other (unless they have shown feats of resisting both). your asking for an ability that has has just about NOTHING to do with the other to be resisted because they share the same name. its illogical.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

What I've said. I'm just gonna to wait for Chariot's argument, because at this point, arguing with you is useless.

 

[Chariot190]

The issue is that both abilities are literally the same thing.

They literally aren't though which is why I'm telling you this dude, you're confusing them both being listed under the same hax/hot link, to mean they are functionally and mechanically the same when in reality, they don't even manipulate quantum mechanics in the same way let alone how they do it.

It's not some utterly different kind of application as you are saying,

Funnily enough, it actually IS a different application, you do know quantum mechanics and manip is an extremely versatile thing right? It can be used in widely varying aspects, and of course, resisting one might not translate to another.

. no, they work with the same concepts, and are applied in the same ways.

They literally aren't they funnily enough aren't applied in the same way, effect different facets of the quantum field and how they get to that both is vastly and mechanically varied between the above.

The only difference is that one has a vibration thing, while the other is also conceptual and higher-dimensional.

And you just probved my point "the only difference" (not the only difference fyi), still means there is a difference and when that difference is the BASIS for the power and HOW it works, well said difference is kind of the biggest possible difference there could be.

But the essentials of affecting quantum particles, and due to that, ignoring durability, are equal, as I proved before.

You didn't prove anything, You're kinda just tossing stuff and going "they're the same", they aren't, I'm actually a tad surprised that this is even being argued, they're pretty blatantly not at all the same and this argument only exists because we, as a wiki, just so happened to list the two under the same umbrella term. Honestly, if Raiden's thing WASN'T listed as quantum manip as an adverse effect but everything else was the same and functionally and mechanically is the exact same it is as we converse, this wouldn't even be an argument because it'd just be listed as vibration manip and due to what it actually does it'd be easy to see that 2B don't got shit for it, it's just the fact it's labled as something that you're debating this.

They aren't completely different, as you claim, they are equal in several ways.

Perhaps they might be equal in several ways, but it's also true they're different in a dozen other ways as well, they aren't 1:1, they aren't even 1:5, they have some basic overlapping effects and contrivances, but like, everything that actually makes said abilities what they are, differ.

What I've said before, in this case they aren't different at all. Also, I really doubt that you wouldn't be able to resist some lower level mindhax if you already resisted something even worse.

They are different, you keep saying they the same but matter of the fact is, they straight up aren't, it's like syaing apples and strawberries the same because they both fruit, ignoring the fact one is a tree born fruit, the latter a berry, and have several different genuses and branching diversifications.
Unfortunately you're wrong, and kinda proving you have a critical misunderstanding in how abilities work, no, you wouldn't be able to resist "lower mindhax" because you resisted something "better", if said mind hax mechanically are utterly different, something you yourself already acknowledged. It doesn't matter if you resist a mindhax a billion times above baseline, it won't help you against this other mindhax if said other mindhax is rooted in a completely different mechanic and application. You get what you get, you have to realize we as a wiki just list some things under the same terminology, but that's all it is, terminology, an umbrella term, things under said umbrella can still be different.

I'm not saying that's totally true, and I know is a case by case. That was just with the conventional examples of the ability you mentioned. About the other stuff, well, I think I've repeated myself a lot so far.

I could list more obtuse examples if need be, but from my experience the mindhax example is the most easy to understand.

I mean, you mentioned that like if it was part of my argument or something like that. I didn't mentioned it at all, so that's why I was somehow impressed by the way you expressed it.

Probably because I wasn't replying to you when I mentioned EMP's? That was a standalone comment, I hadn't even read the thread entirely yet at that point, was just chiming in.

The time slow works with several missiles and Danmaku, so it's not like she could easily evade it. Or even so, she can simply destroy them mid-air thanks to the pod, or create a time field around to evade them.

So? I'm arguing that Raiden could easily just have them set off and explode around her, thus, even with time slow, she literally CAN'T dodge, there would be no where to dodge to, she'd be restricted to a small bubble while all around here would be covered and expansed by EMP pulses, danmaking is one thing, but you kinda can't weave through a wall of explosions all around, there's no gap to weave through. And destroying them midair? I don't think that'd prevent them from going off.

It couldn't work because the data and basically the thing that is being affected by the EMP is conceptual. Their bodies aren't totally affected by the EMPs, their data/core is.

??????????????
That just means it would work on the data? If you're arguing that EMP's don't effect the body but the data/core, and that their data is conceptual, it literally would not matter, because you all but confirmed EMP's WOULD work on said conceptual data, that's a crucial flaw on the data's end, and besides, something can be conceptual and still be interacted with normally, much in the same way an Abstract can embody a concept yet still get punched in the dick. If EMP's effect the core, well, sucks to be that core ig, and I know damn well Automata EMP's aren't wacky insane conceptual EMP's, I have played the game, thrice actually, Nines > 2B don't @ me.

I mean, I don't see the grenades of the game having a lot of range to say they could reach a lot of the area, but ok.

My lad, even Snake's EMP grenades could cover the whole of REX's hangar, and in MGS2 the EMP grenades could cover whole sections of Big Shell, looking at the grenades in MGR, they cover decent rooms from what I could see. They indeed quite hefty.

I don't remember cutscenes were he is constantly using Blade Mode. Ripper Mode is only coming to my head, but that's another thing. And yes, he needs to focus, and that's the same reason he needs to stay still to use it. It's not really a game mechanic or something like that, when that's something pretty consistent in the game.

except it literally is a game mechanic, like dude, you know that he can literally move, bisect, and do cool flashy kill moves involving complex acrobatic movements, WHILE blade mode is still up and things go to a crawl? And Ripper Mode enhances Speed too, Ripper Mode is literally just a roided out blade if anything.
And that's the thing, it isn't consistent, if he never showed the capability to move at all like you're claiming, you'd be right, but he actually DOES prove he can move with Blade Mode on, and it's never once stated anywhere he actually has to stand still (he can even activate it while plummeting or leaping and shit so that too or while countering), so, we have evidence he can use it without standing still, but no confirmation or even a hinted line that states he actually has to do that, that's blatant gameplay balancing lad.

Blade Mode is literally finished at the moment of the executions. I don't see how this proves something.

Yeah, except that's false, he will literally jump up into the air, do cool flashy moves, even do do 480 turns and move location, WHILE finishing them off, WHILE it's still active, with everything slowed down to a halt almost. And then it goes back to normal.

It doesn't go Blade Mode>Kill>Resume>Flashy Move it goes Blade Mode>Kill>Flashy Move>Resume. Crucial difference.

That's something I've already explained before. Planck Scale isn't something new to quantum mechanics, which are even on a lower scale due to more weird scientific metaphysics regarding that thing. And even so, following the very description of Planck Scale,

I wasn't replying to you dude, I was replying to Purple as he mentioned it was atomic scale, I simply mentioned it goes beyond that.

it's the same thing with how Maso works by messing with space-time and such. So yeah, it's still the same thing as always.

I'm starting to think you don't know how Raiden's OR 2B's shit works because this is getting ridiculous. I mean no offense Hecatia, but they really aren't the same? I'm not sure how much better I can explain this, I'm getting to be at a loss mate.

Ah yeah, I forgot to mention this, but she can just use shields made by Maso (which are put directly around she). Due to being higher-D and conceptual Raiden wouldn't be able to do anything against that, utterly making any of his attacks useless.

She would unironically be dead before she even tried, Raiden is literally going to one tap her here, and he has a dozen ways to restrict her capabilities due to design flaws allowing him to roll up and one shot with little issue, and trust me lad, given Raiden's own analytical prowess and genre savvy and willingness to do whatever it takes to prove a point, win or kill, he isn't gonna be holding back on his win conditions, he's gonna deduce the right path of action extremely fast due to his capabilities and just act on them, and while 2B isn't a slouch herself, well, I don't recall anything putting her on Raiden's caliber in that regard.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, I'm out, it's a bit late and I wanna use a bit of my remaining day left to work on some of the Elden Ring shit we got going on, there's a lot so taking what time I have to sort it out is needed.

 

[Comiphorous]

Well, I'm out, it's a bit late and I wanna use a bit of my remaining day left to work on some of the Elden Ring shit we got going on, there's a lot so taking what time I have to sort it out is needed.

Chariot when can i make obligatory Slave Knight Gael vs (Insert elden ring character here)

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Chariot when can i make obligatory Slave Knight Gael vs (Insert elden ring character here)

When Elden Ring stars are agreed upon

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot when can i make obligatory Slave Knight Gael vs (Insert elden ring character here)

We got uh, like 4 renders out of like 3 dozen done.
We got footage, like 15 hours worth, but only about 6 characters have it all converted, spliced and uploaded to the wiki for future use.
We have some ideas locked down for abilities, lore and shit, but only a small handful has been uploaded into albums to link.
We actually have a bunch of feats including back up feats if tier 4 falls through, but they all need to be calced still.
So like, idk, anywhere from a day or two to a billion years, shit's getting done and figured out but there's a LOT of ******* shit that needs to be done, like we could maybe toss out a Blaidd profile or basic bitch dragon soon? But even then, Blaidd scales to Black Knives, and Black Knives have a whole SLEW of lore, feats and info that needs to be sorted so like no matter how ya cut it...

All I can say is eventually, hopefully not long tho, lots of people helping out and I've been spending like a few hours a day, and whole days straight when possible working on this shit.

 

[Comiphorous]

We got uh, like 4 renders out of like 3 dozen done.
We got footage, like 15 hours worth, but only about 6 characters have it all converted, spliced and uploaded to the wiki for future use.
We have some ideas locked down for abilities, lore and shit, but only a small handful has been uploaded into albums to link.
We actually have a bunch of feats including back up feats if tier 4 falls through, but they all need to be calced still.
So like, idk, anywhere from a day or two to a billion years, shit's getting done and figured out but there's a LOT of ******* shit that needs to be done, like we could maybe toss out a Blaidd profile or basic bitch dragon soon? But even then, Blaidd scales to Black Knives, and Black Knives have a whole SLEW of lore, feats and info that needs to be sorted so like no matter how ya cut it...

All I can say is eventually, hopefully not long tho, lots of people helping out and I've been spending like a few hours a day, and whole days straight when possible working on this shit.

poggers, hopefully it goes well.

 

[thetechmaster36]

I don't really care so much for the matchup, but I just wanna drop in here to say that resisting one application of Quantum Manip does not mean you resist different applications of Quantum Manip. It doesn't work like that.

We can take Time Manip as an example of this. Let's say, for example, a character resists Time Manip that's applied in a Time Stop method. The character resists Time Stop, but does that mean they resist temporal attacks? No. Same for vice-versa. This can also be applied in ways such as:

• A character resists Time Slow, but not Time Stop.
• A character resists Time Reversal, but not many other applications of Time Manip.
• A character resists Time Acceleration, but not the other applications.

So on and so forth. So if 2B resists one such application of Quantum Manip, that doesn't mean she's going to resist other applications. And as Chariot has pointed out, the methods of Quantum Manip shown between both of the characters are different from one another.

TL;DR: Characters don't resist other applications of Quantum Manip if the way said resistance works is provably different than other methods.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Gonna respond later (or perhaps tomorrow) because now I'm busy hahah.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Gonna vote Raiden FRA if this isn't a stomp

 

[Comiphorous]

Gonna vote Raiden FRA if this isn't a stomp

the old thread was never considered a stomp, and neither character went through any crazy revision so it shouldn't be. (until we get based tier 6 metal gear rising)

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Raiden fra for Chariot's reasons.

 

[Nierre]

the worst series fra

 

[Comiphorous]

the worst series fra

sorry but you need to make good reasoning to vote for 2B

anyways votes counted

 

[Baken384]

the worst series fra

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Punisher is that you

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Raiden FRA

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

the true better series for chariot reasons

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

the true worst series for chariot reasons

Geddout

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Oh wait

I commented wrong

 

[Comiphorous]

votes counted, two more until grace

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Oh wait

I commented wrong

Whoo, almost thought there'd be a public execution for that

 

[Comiphorous]

Whoo, almost thought there'd be a public execution for that

there will be.

the second it hits april 1st I'm gonna prank em.

prank em john!

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

It's already April first for me

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Raiden FRA.

 

[Kflare63]

raiden fra

 

[Comiphorous]

thats grace.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

personally I like Sonic 06 more

 

[Myguy]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

no jetstream sam

disagree