2B vs Raiden: Metal Gear Rising vs Nier Automata REMAKE

[Comiphorous]

Raiden VS 2B​

The request for this to be remade, so i have delivered. if Hecatia cannot show scans of 2B resisting quantum decoherences then it is to be ignored, remember kids don't be a wanker without bringing proper evidence to back up your outlandish claims.

Speed equalized, both High 7-C

Fight takes place in the middle of the destroyed Metal Gear EXCELSUS, 30 meters apart

The guy with lightning who had a point: 5 (AnAverageUsername, Emirp sumitpo, Nierre, GlaceonGamez471, LIFE_OF_KING)

No bitches?:​

 

[Nierre]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

 

[Comiphorous]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

ngl, i never played it so i might do so when i can

 

[Deceived3596]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

No

 

[Rikimarox2]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

Nah, idk why but I liked the original nier more. Even though Original Nier is objectively a worse game than Automata.

Also Raiden is cooler than 2B, so he automatically wins.

 

[Nierre]

idk why but I liked the original nier more

I agree tbh.

I played Replicant recently and I enjoyed it more than I did Automata as well

 

[Comiphorous]

ANYWAYS

lets not derail this thread so soon

you can do that once someone mentions 2B's ass or something lol

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, what answer does 2B now have to the HF Murasama, and to the speed boosts of Ripper Mode and Blade Mode, that will keep her in the fight?

Also, when they both flash their overexposed butts like a pair of baboons, who gets upset because the other has a better butt than them?

 

[Comiphorous]

Okay, what answer does 2B now have to the HF Muramasa, and to the speed boosts of Ripper Mode and Blade Mode, that will keep her in the fight?

Blade mode is like a 10x amp or something.

ripper mode is a 7 times amp.

 

[Chariot190]

Raiden has large EMP AOE attacks, iirc 2B is actually vulnerable to that.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Blade mode is like a 10x amp or something.

ripper mode is a 7 times amp.

Stackable as percentages or multipliers, as in together do they make him 17 times faster or 70 times faster? With speed equalised that means she is definitely going to get hit. I guess the question really is, if Raiden swings the HF blade at her and hits her, what will happen? Does she have an answer to a blade that vibrates molecules apart, keeping in mind dodging or deflecting it it isn't an option?

 

[Chariot190]

if Raiden swings the HF blade at her and hits her, what will happen?

She gets bisected. She don't got shit against that unfortunately.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What stops Raiden from just swinging his sword through her?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

2B resist basically everything that Raiden has. The only issue is the speed amp, but that could be countered by her passive time slow around her, plus plug-in chips that makes her instinctively evade every attack. Of course, ignoring that she can just do NoU to Raiden's attacks with the damage reflection, or simply spam Maso attacks with her Pod to obliterate him.
That, ignoring the fact she is abstract, which makes worst the things for Raiden.

 

[Comiphorous]

2B resist basically everything that Raiden has.

doesn't resist the right quantum manipulation

The only issue is the speed amp, but that could be countered by her passive time slow around her

Time slow, speed amp, make that completely useless.

That, ignoring the fact she is abstract, which makes worst the things for Raiden.

Body doesn't come back in combat applicable time

Of course, ignoring that she can just do NoU to Raiden's attacks with the damage reflection, or simply spam Maso attacks with her Pod to obliterate him.

with a 50% chance of it happening, with another 50% chance of them being sliced in half with nothing happening.

Stackable as percentages or multipliers, as in together do they make him 17 times faster or 70 times faster? With speed equalised that means she is definitely going to get hit. I guess the question really is, if Raiden swings the HF blade at her and hits her, what will happen? Does she have an answer to a blade that vibrates molecules apart, keeping in mind dodging or deflecting it it isn't an option?

Ripper mode makes him stronger and faster, and im unsure if it stacks, you'd have to ask someone more knowledgable but considering he can still slow people down with blade mode i'd say it stacks.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

TBH, I feel like A2 is more fitting against Raiden than 2B but eh

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

2B resist basically everything that Raiden has. The only issue is the speed amp, but that could be countered by her passive time slow around her, plus plug-in chips that makes her instinctively evade every attack. Of course, ignoring that she can just do NoU to Raiden's attacks with the damage reflection, or simply spam Maso attacks with her Pod to obliterate him.
That, ignoring the fact she is abstract, which makes worst the things for Raiden.

2B does not resist the High Frequency sword at all.

Also isn't only her conciousness abstract and not her physical body?

Speed amps are much faster than her passive speed amps.

 

[Comiphorous]

TBH, I feel like A2 is more fitting against Raiden than 2B but eh

alas, this is just to see if this can stay on Raiden's page since its questionable apparently. maybe someday.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

In other words, Raiden would blitz 2B before she even reacts and nothing 2B has counters the High Frequency Blade.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

doesn't resist the right quantum manipulation

As I said in the other thread, Raiden's quantum manipulation isn't something new or "the right one," as it works with one of the main idea of Quantum mechanics, so 2B still resists. And in her case is better as it affects higher-dimensions and is of a conceptual nature. Is not only the same thing a Raiden's, but also, really improved.

Time slow, speed amp, make that completely useless.

He doesn't have time slow, kek. Regardless, he still would be affected by that, and the other time manip that literally is near to be time stop, so the speed amp is useless too.

with a 50% chance of it happening, with another 50% chance of them being sliced in half with nothing happening.

Still, is a high probability, so it can be considered, not like it's a 10% or something like that.

2B does not resist the High Frequency sword at all.

Yes she does. Look at her profile (plus everything I've explained).

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Her quantum manipulation resistance doesn't protect against something that'll split her atoms by just interacting with her.

Her quantum manip is different than Raiden's quantum manip.

 

[Comiphorous]

As I said in the other thread, Raiden's quantum manipulation isn't something new or "the right one," as it works with one of the main idea of Quantum mechanics, so 2B still resists. And in her case is better as it affects higher-dimensions and is of a conceptual nature. Is not only the same thing a Raiden's, but also, really improved.

your just being ignorant at this point, they dont resist it unless you bring scans of them SPECIFICALLY resisting their atoms being split, just because you resist one type of quantum manipulation doesn't mean you resist all types.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I have to ask, as someone who was involved in the Nier upgrade thread, wasn't the time stuff rejected as not combat applicable?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

your just being ignorant at this point, they dont resist it unless you bring scans of them SPECIFICALLY resisting their atoms being split, just because you resist one type of quantum manipulation doesn't mean you resist all types.

"Raiden's quantum manipulation isn't something new as it works with one of the general concepts of quantum mechanics (Planck Scale), so 2B is still going to resist it"

"IGNORANT"

At this point I'm genuinely wondering if you don't have more arguments at all. Didn't you know that a quantum particles is way more dangerous than an atom? This is not a case of "Oh this is a different type so it wouldn't resist," no, this is literally see which one is better, or at least, if they are the same thing. I get what you are trying to say, and in other context, I would give you the reason. However, literally, Maso particles are used to negate durability in the same way Raiden do so. So trying to say "no this doesn't works because it's different, even if the other one is far stronger than what Raiden has" will not refute anything.

I have to ask, as someone who was involved in the Nier upgrade thread, wasn't the time stuff rejected as not combat applicable?

You mean the Divergence Phenomenon? That's another different thing, I didn't mentioned that in my answers.

 

[Comiphorous]

"Raiden's quantum manipulation isn't something new as it works with one of the general concepts of quantum mechanics (Planck Scale), so 2B is still going to resist it"

"IGNORANT"

still doesn't resist the correct type of quantum manipulation unless you show scans of them resisting their atoms being split.

if they resist it, show scans of them doing such. your confident they do so you clearly have scans of such?

 

[Random-Helper323]

You mean the Divergence Phenomenon? That's another different thing, I didn't mentioned that in my answers.

Understood, but where does the passive time slow come from? And how strong is it? It has to be at least X17, perhaps X70, to counter Raiden's speed amps. I'm also not sure vibrating molecules apart really gets countered by general quantum mechanics. And as useful as it is to be backed up to the cloud, it doesn't really stop her being incapacitated.

their atoms being split.

It's been a while since I finished Metal Gear Rising, but doesn't the HF blade vibrate molecules apart rather than atoms? It doesn't make any difference if the enemy doesn't resist, but it does seem significant given the issue of resistance to it is being discussed.

 

[Comiphorous]

It's been a while since I finished Metal Gear Rising, but doesn't the HF blade vibrate molecules apart rather than atoms? It doesn't make any difference if the enemy doesn't resist, but it does seem significant given the issue of resistance to it is being discussed.

it disrupts atoms by making quantum decoherences, shrinking their electron cloud.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

Boring gameplay

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Before anyone says anything Nier Automata is the best game in existence.

ok carry on

It's really fun gameplay wise but I can't be the only one who feels the bosses are meh.

Like the only one that truly feels boss worthy is Eve's fight.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

still doesn't resist the correct type of quantum manipulation unless you show scans of them resisting their atoms being split.

if they resist it, show scans of them doing such. your confident they do so you clearly have scans of such?

-Literally ignoring all my points .

Btwwwww, since you also didn't answered my other points, I'm going to assume that you concede them and so they are quite possible wincons for 2B .

Okay. Where does the passive time slow come from? And how strong is it? It has to be at least X17, perhaps X70, to counter Raiden's speed amps. I'm also not sure vibrating molecules apart really gets countered by general quantum mechanics. And as useful as it is to be backed up to the cloud, it doesn't really stop her being incapacitated.

Here (0:59). It slows time whenever an attack happens. That works for all the main characters so it useful for 2B too. There's also this that is potentially time stopping everything after evading the attack. As she can use auto-chips to automatically evade everything, it would work before Raiden can do something (you can see an example of this auto-evasion here).
Regarding the other, as I said before, at the end both abilities are the same thing, but one is far more powerful than the other. If we were talking about different abilities, then I can understand that, but that's not the case here, specially, when quantum mechanics treats with matter and particles far more smaller and dangerous than molecules

 

[Comiphorous]

-Literally ignoring all my points .

Btwwwww, since you also didn't answered my other points, I'm going to assume that you concede them and so they are quite possible wincons for 2B .

-ignoring your points because you wont show ******* scans.

this isn't like reality warping where, if you resist a superior reality warping you automatically resist a worse reality warp ability. no this is you asking that a completely different ability be resisted because oh no they share the same name. give me a ******* scan of them not being affected, or resisting the affects of quantum decoherences. if not, im ignoring that point because its just assumptions.

Here (0:59). It slows time whenever an attack happens. That works for all the main characters so it useful for 2B too. There's also this that is potentially time stopping everything after evading the attack. As she can use auto-chips to automatically evade everything, it would work before Raiden can do something (you can see an example of this auto-evasion here).
Regarding the other, as I said before, at the end both abilities are the same thing, but one is far more powerful than the other. If we were talking about different abilities, then I can understand that, but that's not the case here, specially, when quantum mechanics treats with matter and particles far more smaller and dangerous than molecules

and time slow is negated by a 10x speed amp.

 

[Chariot190]

As I said in the other thread, Raiden's quantum manipulation isn't something new or "the right one," as it works with one of the main idea of Quantum mechanics, so 2B still resists. And in her case is better as it affects higher-dimensions and is of a conceptual nature. Is not only the same thing a Raiden's, but also, really improved.

Different mechanics lad, jsut because they're both listed under the same "power" doesn't mean **** all if they inherently function and are obtained in widely different manners. You're better off resisting vibration manip, not quantum manip, to get past the HF Blade, as the quantum shit is only a side effect of the vibration.

It'd be like arguing you could resist Mewtwo or Prof X's mind manip based on resisting a mind manip from a biological source (Dio's flesh buds or Poison Ivy's for example), opposed to a psionic one and vice versa.

Also EMP is LITERALLY mention to be a weakness of her's, and Raiden has like a hundred EMP grenades with big dick AOE.

 

[Baken384]

raiden's heels solos

 

[Comiphorous]

raiden's heels solos

he do got some killer heels doe.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Raiden has the fatter ass

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

-ignoring your points because you wont show ******* scans.

this isn't like reality warping where, if you resist a superior reality warping you automatically resist a worse reality warp ability. no this is you asking that a completely different ability be resisted because oh no they share the same name. give me a ******* scan of them not being affected, or resisting the affects of quantum decoherences. if not, im ignoring that point because its just assumptions.

Relax broU. This is a debate, I'm not insulting your mother.

As I repeated throughout the whole thread, these aren't different abilities, as both works by the logic of quantum mechanics. It's not an assumption, is basically what the profile is stating, what was accepted, and what the game tells you. Like, sum 2+2 and it's done. Maso is the same as quantum particles, so that's why 2B's resisting that would make her resist what Raiden has.

Here is the statement of Maso ignoring defenses.

Here is the comparison between quantum mechanics and Maso.

And here is the statement of how Maso works in the same way as quantum particles.

English Localized Version

[SingulArities]

Persons, plACes, or things thAt Can trigger A Divergence, or Branch, Across multiple worlDs. Branch phenomenA oCCur when enough mAgiC pArtiCles Are in An AreA, AnD All relevAnt ConDitions Are met. However, A singulArity is not reCorDeD As suCh until After A Branch oCCurs.

Magic particles are Maso, btw, and the statement clearly mentions how quantum mechanics works by affecting time and space.

So yeah, 2B resist quantum-based durability negation, which essentially is the same as Raiden's one. Now just sit down and breath a little, you need that.

Different mechanics lad, jsut because they're both listed under the same "power" doesn't mean **** all if they inherently function and are obtained in widely different manners. You're better of resisting vibration manip, not quantum manip, to get past the HF Blade, as the quantum shit is only a side effect of the vibration.

It'd be like arguing you could resist Mewtwo or Prof X's mind manip based on resisting a mind manip from a biological source, opposed to a psionic one and vice versa..

Also EMP is LITERALLY mention to be a weakness of her's, and Raiden has like a hundred EMP grenades with big dick AOE.

The issue, however, is that they aren't only essentially the same thing, but also, in Maso's case is far more improved than Raiden's one. You wouldn't say something like you can affect someone who resist concept-based soul manip just because your soulhax doesn't mess with concepts, right?

And that's a good example, if only, has some direct relation with what I'm arguing here. Because, ironically, biological based mind manip is awful in comparison to a psionic based one, so clearly, if you resist the first, then you has nothing to do against the other.

What does EMP has to do with this? Anyway. Now that you mention that, it could work, but consider things like:

1) 2B's true core is conceptual in nature. So I doubt normal EMP could really work against her.

2) It's a grenade, and if it gets closer towards her it will be affected by the time dilation, and so, 2B could easily evade or intercept that, with her Pod, for example.

3) I don't recall them having some "big dick AOE" as you said. Welp, I can be wrong, specially because I didn't use them so much hahah.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Alongside something that I seem you were ignoring, and is that, to use Blade Mode, Raiden needs to stay still in a place, he needs to first absorb energy from his enemy to use that, and that his movement speed isn't increased to say he can just move fast towards 2B and slay her . Plus, he can't interact with any of 2B's missiles due to being literally Maso/Conceptual energy, so if he tries to cut them, he's literally dead.

 

[Comiphorous]

Here is the statement of Maso ignoring defenses.

ignoring defenses can be literally anything. death manipulation, soul manipulation, stabbing someone's back can all ignore durability

Here is the comparison between quantum mechanics and Maso.

nothing there showed anything about getting your atoms split.

And here is the statement of how Maso works in the same way as quantum particles.

weird how all three of these examples you showed NEVER mention on how 2B has resisted the affects of Quantum decoherences in atoms. almost like they dont resist it.

Alongside something that I seem you were ignoring, and is that, to use Blade Mode, Raiden needs to stay still in a place, he needs to first absorb energy from his enemy to use that, and that his movement speed isn't increased to say he can just move fast towards 2B and slay her . Plus, he can't interact with any of 2B's missiles due to being literally Maso/Conceptual energy, so if he tries to cut them, he's literally dead.

no.

 

[Chariot190]

The issue, however, is that they aren't only essentially the same thing, but also, in Maso's case is far more improved than Raiden's one. You wouldn't say something like you can affect someone who resist concept-based soul manip just because your soulhax doesn't mess with concepts, right?

No but I would say you could if your soul hax is applied and performed in a completely different way mechanically or functionally than the alleged "better" soul hax then yeah it would work because they're mechnically not the same thing and however you resisted the other, would inherently translate to the lesser soul hax even if it's technically not as good an end result, for example, WhiteSnake, his soul hax is unconventional as ****, he uses a "acid" ability that can effect noncorporal substances, and by doing this, he can transmutate and melt souls and then reshape them into the form of DISC's. Resisting soul hax isn't exactly helpful here despite it also being soul hax, what you';d actually need is the ability to resist acid manip & transmutation that have NPI, and still not really not, mechanically they're completely different to the point this isn't even arguable, she'd need good vibration res to bypass HF.

And that's a good example, if only, has some direct relation with what I'm arguing here. Because, ironically, biological based mind manip is awful in comparison to a psionic based one, so clearly, if you resist the first, then you has nothing to do against the other.

yeah, you're right it IS a good example, because despite both being mind manip, they're two completely different things inherently and applied differently mechanically, resisting mindhax doesn't automatically encompass both. You could shrug off a mental assault from like Martian ************* Manhunter, but turn around and get mind haxed by like Ragyo or DIO because their mindhax is conventionally, mechanically and functionally utterly different, despite being, on paper, absolute trash compared to MM, resisting his stuff wouldn't actually. And vice versa, you could shrug mind hax from like Swampthing, but then get ****** by a basic ass psychic assault from Black Mask.
And you're kinda proving a bias there, "biological based mind manip is awful compared to psionic", that isn't true, it's simply case by case dependent on the character, and of course, resisting one doesn't help with the other, and that goes both ways. Now, as I'm sure you understand by now, despite the fact that Raiden has Quantum manip, and so does 2B, mechanically, they're not even comparable,
What 2B is ******* with, isn't at all the same, hell even the end result is a tad different. She'd need good vibration res to actually res it.

What does EMP has to do with this? Anyway. Now that you mention that, it could work, but consider things like:

What do you mean what does it have to do with this? It obviously has to do with the match, and the fact EMP-esque things are LITERALLY listed as a weakness for her, pretty sure magnetic stuff is too, which Raiden has fyi, he has magnetic weaponry from Monsoon.

1) 2B's true core is conceptual in nature. So I doubt normal EMP could really work against her.

It'd sure as hell work on her body at least, and that's kinda the important part, incap is indeed a win condition.

2) It's a grenade, and if it gets closer towards her it will be affected by the time dilation, and so, 2B could easily evade or intercept that, with her Pod, for example.

Toss a bunch? Not like he has one, simply restrict her movements by tossing them in the paths she could go or escape to, even with time dilation she'd be closed in, and wouldn't have a way out without entering into the expansion of one of them.

3) I don't recall them having some "big dick AOE" as you said. Welp, I can be wrong, specially because I didn't use them so much hahah.

Even the EMP's from like 2001 in universe has over 100m AOE. And I can ascertain that the MGR ones have, at minimum, tens of meters AOE.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

ignoring defenses can be literally anything. death manipulation, soul manipulation, stabbing someone's back can all ignore durability

But the context, as I showed, is literally due to Maso/Quantum particles. That's what I've explained.

nothing there showed anything about getting your atoms split.

You don't see that because they resist it... xd.

weird how all three of these examples you showed NEVER mention on how 2B has resisted the affects of Quantum decoherences in atoms. almost like they dont resist it.

...If I'm showing that, it's because everyone in-verse uses the same energy of the scans. It's something already proved before, accepted, and applied. If you don't like that, then that's not my problem.

no.

I don't know if we played the same game, but Blade Mode is literally you staying still while cutting shit. Ripper Mode is just the berserk state we all know, but to use Ripper Mode there you still need to stay still to apply that. Regardless, that guide doesn't say much about that, so maybe you can show me a gameplay applying bot of these features?