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Marvel "Upgrades"

Good for me, if the durability of her forcefield may vary. For example in FF: Antithesis #1 there was an incoming meteor that was explicitly calc'd by Reed to "wipe out a dozen city blocks" due to its mass and speed, Sue said that she couldn't stop it with her forcefield, and they needed to amp it so the FF could all use the forcefield to reflect the meteor as it hit it just to divert it so that it may cause destruction somewhere else, the team putting a big effort while holding the forcefield and Sue being particularly exhausted.

Also, Annihilus is MFTL+ and Wrecker is Likely MFTL+ by scaling to a Thor that's not portrayed as using his full speed. Wrecker also reacted to some speedster but he shouldn't scale to that. Is there any other character at MFTL+ due to invalid reasons?
 
Okay. That seems to make sense.
 
AKM sama said:
Say a fodder fights a held-back Hulk or Thor, there can be multiple scenarios:

Scenario 1: If they perform an impressive feat during the fight, like blowing up a mountain or something, the fodder should be scaled from that.

Scenario 2: If they don't perform any feat and we don't know how much held-back the stronger character was, the fodder should be rated based on some of his other showings or scaling chains.

Scenario 3: If the fodder doesn't even have any other thing to go off of besides fighting a held-back Thor/Hulk, we would have to rate him as unknown.
Click to expand...
So about this...
 
Well, somebody needs to write a text that incorporates the principles of AKM's suggestions, but that fits as a rule for the relevant instruction page then. Help would be very appreciated.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Holding back exists ya know, Thor doesn't have to planet bust every time he swings Mjölnir.
Click to expand...
That's why I said "control it's area of effect", not necessarily attack power.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can hang with an even mildly serious Thor for an extended period of time is planet level minimum.
 
Anyways unless Thor just has... REALLY broken energy manipulation, like genuinely you're talking about localizing kinetic energy projected onto a hyperspecific boundary decided by Thor himself, with EVERY HIT, mind you, I don't recall any mechanic to allow for this.

You'll need proof in the form of a scan, that Thor indeed is controlling his AoE deliberately, that isn't as easily explained away as him holding back the potency of his hammer rather.
 
The_Impress said:
Explain how
Click to expand...
DaReaperMan said:
And pray tell, what ability would Thor get for this? Wait, hold on. Don't answer. Occam's Razor just says Thor holds back.
Click to expand...
The same principle that allows us to say that DBZ characters can shoot out planet level energy beams that don't actually destroy the planet.

"Attack potency is not necessarily the same as area of effect."

I don't get this weird amnesia about principles that most versus debaters have been following for years now.
 
...what explicitly planet leveling beam has been shot at the planet, not doing shit, in DBZ?

In general Dragon Ball characters have a far better control of their energy blasts in canon that Thor ever does, and the main reason for AoE =/= Attack Potency is based on the presumption that characters don't want to destroy their environment for CIS reasoning, which, Thor doesn't want to kill the opponent for CIS reasoning, both come from the exact same principle. If Thor can somehow localize his energy to this extent, I can very well just say Thor's AoE is so miniscule it's planetary in an irrelevant sense, hence he's only localizing it to cause minor bruises on his opponents within hyperspecific areas. You can't ignore one facet of an idea to incorporate the other.

Also again, why can't Thor just... not hit people at planetary strength? You provided a scan stating Mjolnir can easily blow up planets, I provided a counter scan stating Thor uses Mjolnir at such a low level he forgot how powerful Mjolnir was, nothing states Mjolnir is always bare minimum planetary, and we know Thor uses a miniscule fraction of it. Logical conclusion is, Thor just doesn't use it at a planetary level.

This whole argument currently is based on taking presumptions literal, guess what? These principles were made in regards to isolated incidents, you're using it to justify decades-apart scans made within separate contexts, vs. debating principles can also just be wrong, or be verse-specifics extended to all.
 
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Antvasima said:
Well, somebody needs to write a text that incorporates the principles of AKM's suggestions, but that fits as a rule for the relevant instruction page then. Help would be very appreciated.
Click to expand...
This still needs to be handled.
 
Antvasima said:
This still needs to be handled.
Click to expand...
Welp, I typed up a rough draft. Feel free to modify it however necessary.

“Power-Scaling to Restricted Characters”​

Many Comic Book Superheroes (ex. Superman, Thor, Silver Surfer, Hulk) have moral obligations that inhibit the use of deadly force, causing them hold back immensely on most occasions. Fights involving these characters should be heavily scrutinized to avoid erroneously scaling weaker characters to their full strength. Therefore to ensure accuracy of our statistics, these instructions have been implemented to analyze these instances:

Scenario 1: If a character performs an impressive feat during a battle against a restricted character (ex. Abomination causing an earthquake in a clash with the Hulk) they should be preferably be rated based on that feat.

Scenario 2: If a character doesn’t perform any feat and it isn’t discernible how strong the held-back character was during their fight, the character should be rated based on their other showings or fights with different characters.

Scenario 3: If a character doesn't have any thing to go off of besides fighting a character who is known to hold back, they should preferably rated as Unknown in lack of better options.

Scenario 4: If the character fights a character known to hold back in a circumstance where they are explicitly fighting seriously (ex. they intend to kill or the character is in a scenario where they have no reason to hold back, for example an unpopulated area) then scaling to their full strength would be allowed.
  • Battles set in populated areas should be heavily questioned due to the factor of collateral damage. Note that certain characters may be listed as unreliable to scale from due to sheer inconsistency or having Variable Tiers.

​
 
Not sure if we need hard-and-fast rules like that. I just came up with it to propose a general practice for minor characters who don't have feats of their own and their showings only consists of minor event of scaling to characters like Thor and Hulk. Depending on the context, there may be cases that don't follow it.
 
What do the rest of you think about Maverick's draft text? Should we add it as a new section to the Marvel and DC powerscaling page?
 
Confluctor said:
Let's not compare it to dB of all things lol.

Stick to its own verse mechanics
Click to expand...
Are you seriously saying that we should put double standards between how we treat comic book AP and area of effect, and how we treat other fictions' AP and area of effect, because "muh verse mechanics"?

"Muh verse mechanics" in this case just seems like an excuse to introduce all manner of arbitrary and nonsensical double standards.

The_Impress said:
In general Dragon Ball characters have a far better control of their energy blasts in canon that Thor ever does
Click to expand...
Sounds like an extremely contentious claim that isn't backed up by any evidence.


The_Impress said:
is based on the presumption that characters don't want to destroy their environment for CIS reasoning, which, Thor doesn't want to kill the opponent for CIS reasoning, both come from the exact same principle.
Click to expand...
Uh, no they don't. Controlling an attack's area of effect so that it doesn't cause unwanted environmental damage and controlling an attack's potency so that it doesn't kill someone are two very different things.


The_Impress said:
If Thor can somehow localize his energy to this extent, I can very well just say Thor's AoE is so miniscule it's planetary in an irrelevant sense, hence he's only localizing it to cause minor bruises on his opponents within hyperspecific areas. You can't ignore one facet of an idea to incorporate the other.
Click to expand...
Those attack would still have planetary attack power, so if Thor was fighting (semi) seriously, and his opponent was not instantly defeated, we can reasonably assume that they're at least planetary in power. You cannot reduce an attack's area of effect to the point that it's real attack power somehow becomes irrelevant. That's just complete nonsense.

Your line of reasoning doesn't even work anyway because Thor generally doesn't hit people in "hyperspecific" manners using Mjolnir.

The_Impress said:
Also again, why can't Thor just... not hit people at planetary strength? You provided a scan stating Mjolnir can easily blow up planets, I provided a counter scan stating Thor uses Mjolnir at such a low level he forgot how powerful Mjolnir was, nothing states Mjolnir is always bare minimum planetary, and we know Thor uses a miniscule fraction of it. Logical conclusion is, Thor
Click to expand...
Because Thor is a warrior at heart, and because of this, even if he were to hold back enough to not kill somebody, he wouldn't hold back enough to avoid knocking them out. Indeed, a lot of comic book heroes, if not the overwhelming majority of them, have the same character trait of being willing to knock their opponents out, if not actually kill them.

We can therefore logically conclude that of Thor was fighting someone in an even just barely serious manner, and they were still able to hang with him, and weren't immediately one-shotted or swiftly defeated, the they should be around planet level at a minimum. You don't put in real effort against people who you could otherwise very easily defeat.
 
The_Impress said:
Anyways unless Thor just has... REALLY broken energy manipulation, like genuinely you're talking about localizing kinetic energy projected onto a hyperspecific boundary decided by Thor himself, with EVERY HIT, mind you, I don't recall any mechanic to allow for this.

You'll need proof in the form of a scan, that Thor indeed is controlling his AoE deliberately, that isn't as easily explained away as him holding back the potency of his hammer rather.
Click to expand...
^^^^
 
That's because comic book characters have the worst consistency in terms of power level due to multiple writers throughout history inserting their own bias and opinion when making stories which unfortunately makes characters far weaker/stronger than they should have any right to be.

We have an entire page explaining this in order to avoid awkward scaling to anyone because of that.
 
Malomtek said:
I don't see anyone else asking for proof that any other character controls their AoE deliberately, so this is just special pleading to prop up a double standard.
Click to expand...
Because you SPECIFICALLY argued that Thor controls his AOE deliberately. Details son,

I mean, your arguing Ki Control isn't a thing in DB Canon. It is a thing, and as it turns out, is a verse mechanic. If you don't want that verse mechanic to be in place, make a CRT about it.
 
Malomtek said:
Are you seriously saying that we should put double standards between how we treat comic book AP and area of effect, and how we treat other fictions' AP and area of effect, because "muh verse mechanics"?

"Muh verse mechanics" in this case just seems like an excuse to introduce all manner of arbitrary and nonsensical double standards.
Click to expand...
Listen here. This ain't gonna cut. Show scans of Thor doing something like that, then go ahead with the comparisons.

Again, two wrongs don't make it right.
 
Malomtek said:
Sounds like an extremely contentious claim that isn't backed up by any evidence.
Click to expand...
Not really, only energy manipulation ever relevantly shown by Thor is, iirc, Absorption and Projection. DBZ characters can knowingly shape their blasts in variety of forms, see the different forms they do project.

Burden of proof is on you to challenge this claim as the files support my statements, and for the record I couldn't care less about DBZ stats given I think they're laughably wanked too, people just try to force in counterwank within their own verses instead of calling them out
Malomtek said:
Uh, no they don't. Controlling an attack's area of effect so that it doesn't cause unwanted environmental damage
Click to expand...
Real quick, explain to me why they DON'T want unwanted environmental damage? Because except for CIS to protect living beings I don't see a reason for Thor to do that.
Malomtek said:
and controlling an attack's potency so that it doesn't kill someone are two very different things.
Click to expand...
Elaborate. "No" isn't a valid rebuttal.
Malomtek said:
You cannot reduce an attack's area of effect to the point that it's real attack power somehow becomes irrelevant. That's just complete nonsense.
Click to expand...
It's as dumb a presumptuon as claiming a character can control their AoE
Malomtek said:
Your line of reasoning doesn't even work anyway because Thor generally doesn't hit people in "hyperspecific" manners using Mjolnir.
Click to expand...
...except you're arguing he is controlling AoE of Mjolnir, which requires him to hit opponents in a hyperspecific manner.
Malomtek said:
Because Thor is a warrior at heart, and because of this, even if he were to hold back enough to not kill somebody, he wouldn't hold back enough to avoid knocking them out.
Click to expand...
...your point? Thor is a warrior at heart but Thor is also extremely noble and wouldn't smash someone with planetary strength since it kills them, and we know they're not planetary since most of them have absolute jackshit REACHING planetary tier.

Knocking someone out only requires you to be comparable strength to them, and FYI for said characters TO BE planetary, Thor is still holding back billionth of his strength, dividing a few more tens to the already miniscule fraction isn't relevantly causing a problem.
Malomtek said:
You don't put in real effort against people who you could otherwise very easily defeat.
Click to expand...
...you DO recognize one of these scans have him explicitly say this shit to the Wrecker? Characters can do dumb shit for CIS/PIS reasoning, this is said dumb shit, Thor can hit 4-B if you HAVEN'T noticed, he isn't hitting them with 4-B strength, he's hitting them with a fraction of it, said fraction is ALREADY miniscule enough to be in the millionth range in the planetary field.

I'll actually explain what this current argument is, to passerbys, this is an argument that can VERY WELL be used to upgrade these characters to 4-B, and the only reason I can see Malmotek here using this for Planetary tiers, is either A. They have a blindspot regarding it's use, or B. They're recognizing for semantic reasoning, proposing Thing at planet tier is less ridiculous than to proposing him at 4-B base, and thus using it regardless. Either way, this argument used is no longer about the tier 6 downgrade, this is about the 4-B tiersplit in general.

So Mal I suggest either you back out of this argument recognizing that your complaints were addressed in the 4-B tiersplit, as necessary assumptions taken to make sense of these abundance of these hold-back statements and allow for more logical representations, OR you can make it abundant you're currently challenging that precedent accepted in the 4-B revisions.

I need clarification here, because currently this sounds like a "have your cake and eat it too" type situation, which I can dismiss by contradicting precedent set.
 
Can you people make your comments one at a time, please? I starting feel like I'm being ganged up on.
MarvelFanatic119 said:
That's because comic book characters have the worst consistency in terms of power level due to multiple writers throughout history inserting their own bias and opinion when making stories which unfortunately makes characters far weaker/stronger than they should have any right to be.

We have an entire page explaining this in order to avoid awkward scaling to anyone because of that.
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about how consistent Marvel's powerscaling is, but that Thor can control the Area of Effect of his own attacks. You're thinking a completely unrelated argument at me right now.


DaReaperMan said:
Because you SPECIFICALLY argued that Thor controls his AOE deliberately. Details son
Click to expand...
Yeah, and? Again, no one else specifically argues this for any other character, because that's just assumed, as it normally would (and should) be.



Confluctor said:
Listen here. This ain't gonna cut. Show scans of Thor doing something like that, then go ahead with the comparisons.

Again, two wrongs don't make it right.
Click to expand...
Doing what? Controlling and directing his own energy? Because Thor does that literally all the time.

Although with that "two wrongs doesn't make a right" comment, I guess you're going to make some "meta" thread about how we shouldn't distinguish AP from AoE unless the "verse mechanics" or whatever allow for it, something that I don't expect to make much headway whatsoever.
DaReaperMan said:
I mean, your arguing Ki Control isn't a thing in DB Canon. It is a thing, and as it turns out, is a verse mechanic. If you don't want that verse mechanic to be in place, make a CRT about it.
Click to expand...
I'm not arguing that "ki control" shouldn't be a thing, but that Thor's ability to control his own energy should also be a thing, as is considered for myriad other fictional characters.

It's like you people are deliberately trying as hard as possible not to understand any of my argument. This blatant strawman of yours is a prime example of this.

The_Impress said:
Not really, only energy manipulation ever relevantly shown by Thor is, iirc, Absorption and Projection.
Click to expand...
And the control of his own lightning, the Anti-Force, etc. But it seems you somehow forgot that.


The_Impress said:
DBZ characters can knowingly shape their blasts in variety of forms, see the different forms they do project.
Click to expand...
How does any of that relate to controlling the AoE of their attacks?

I can do this nonsense too, you know.


The_Impress said:
Burden of proof is on you to challenge this claim as the files support my statements, and for the record I couldn't care less about DBZ stats given I think they're laughably wanked too, people just try to force in counterwank within their own verses instead of calling them out
Click to expand...
I'm just going to say "good luck" to whatever massive "DBZ downgrade" thread you're going to make.

You're going to need it.


The_Impress said:
Real quick, explain to me why they DON'T want unwanted environmental damage? Because except for CIS to protect living beings I don't see a reason for Thor to do that.
Click to expand...
It also wastes a lot of energy better used for hitting the opponent.


The_Impress said:
Elaborate. "No" isn't a valid rebuttal.
Click to expand...
If you can't see the difference between controlling an attack's real power and controlling an attack's apparent area of effect, then I really cannot help you.


The_Impress said:
It's as dumb a presumptuon as claiming a character can control their AoE
Click to expand...
Are you really doing this right now?


The_Impress said:
...except you're arguing he is controlling AoE of Mjolnir, which requires him to hit opponents in a hyperspecific manner.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. He just has to control Mjolnir's AoE so that when he hits someone, it doesn't blow up the planet or solar system or something.


The_Impress said:
...your point? Thor is a warrior at heart but Thor is also extremely noble and wouldn't smash someone with planetary strength since it kills them, and we know they're not planetary since most of them have absolute jackshit REACHING planetary tier.
Click to expand...
Aren't most of the characters Thor faces more along the lines of cosmic villains, and not the average street level thug?

I'm pretty sure a lot of them have planetary feats bare minimum of their own.


The_Impress said:
Knocking someone out only requires you to be comparable strength to them, and FYI for said characters TO BE planetary, Thor is still holding back billionth of his strength, dividing a few more tens to the already miniscule fraction isn't relevantly causing a problem.
Click to expand...
"Dividing a few more tenths" would make these characters small planet level or moon level for fighting Thor. You're arguing that a "restrained" Thor is large island level, and large island level is literally around 10^25 times or so lesser than Thor's general actual power (solar system level).

And yes, you're finally getting my point. Even if Thor was restraining himself against someone, as long as he fights them semi seriously, and they don't go down too quickly, they should scale to some meaningfully high (relatively speaking) fraction of his power, like planet level.

The_Impress said:
...you DO recognize one of these scans have him explicitly say this shit to the Wrecker? Characters can do dumb shit for CIS/PIS reasoning, this is said dumb shit, Thor can hit 4-B if you HAVEN'T noticed, he isn't hitting them with 4-B strength, he's hitting them with a fraction of it, said fraction is ALREADY miniscule enough to be in the millionth range in the planetary field.
Click to expand...
Ok. And?

The bolded actually proves my point, in all honesty.

The_Impress said:
I'll actually explain what this current argument is, to passerbys, this is an argument that can VERY WELL be used to upgrade these characters to 4-B, and the only reason I can see Malmotek here using this for Planetary tiers, is either A. They have a blindspot regarding it's use, or B. They're recognizing for semantic reasoning, proposing Thing at planet tier is less ridiculous than to proposing him at 4-B base, and thus using it regardless. Either way, this argument used is no longer about the tier 6 downgrade, this is about the 4-B tiersplit in general.

So Mal I suggest either you back out of this argument recognizing that your complaints were addressed in the 4-B tiersplit, as necessary assumptions taken to make sense of these abundance of these hold-back statements and allow for more logical representations, OR you can make it abundant you're currently challenging that precedent accepted in the 4-B revisions.

I need clarification here, because currently this sounds like a "have your cake and eat it too" type situation, which I can dismiss by contradicting precedent set.
Click to expand...
What the hell are you even saying right now? Why are you trying to put words in my mouth by saying that I'm arguing for Thor to be less than solar system level in base. I'm arguing that Thor is solar system level in base, and that for most to even sustain combat with his "restrained" self for more than 5 minutes, they must be at least planet level, and that's assuming that Thor is holding back like a billionth of his real power, like you yourself said.

And you better cut it out with this "back out of this argument" nonsense. I don't take orders from disingenuous clods such as you.
 
Disingenuous idiots deliberately misrepresenting my arguments then saying I should step out of the discussion piss me the hell off to no end.
 
Immediately stop with the insults and hostility, or we will have to give you a ban. A thread ban may already be in order.

Also, I would appreciate if we can get back on track with this revision so we get something done here.
 
Antvasima said:
Immediately stop with the insults and hostility, or we will have to give you a ban. A thread ban may already be in order.

Also, I would appreciate if we can get back on track with this revision so we get something done here.
Click to expand...
Why are you threatening to threadban me over simply giving my point of view in this discussion?

As for the revision. Thor should be safe system level in base, planet level while "restrained", and it should be the same for many other "herald level" Marvel characters.
 
Because you evidently cannot behave properly. Starting to insult and call other people names is not acceptable behaviour at all in this forum.
 
Antvasima said:
Because you evidently cannot behave properly. Starting to insult and call other people names is not acceptable behaviour at all in this forum.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry about that then. I was just frustrated with how dishonest my opponents were being.

I am distressed by your accusations that I "cannot behave properly", when I have been following the rules ever since I got here.
 
They are not dishonest. They just disagree with you. And calling them "opponents" is not exactly the collaborative atmosphere that we should strive for in this community.
 
Antvasima said:
They are not dishonest. They just disagree with you. And calling them "opponents" is not exactly the collaborative atmosphere that we should strive for in this community.
Click to expand...
Strawmanning my own arguments is dishonesty, not just "disagreement". And I don't know what else to call them other than "opponents" in this case.

But that's all irrelevant anyway, because I already made my point of view clear on this topic.

Confluctor said:
Then please show us an example


And nah bruh I ain't got time for meta stuff. What's shown on comic is enough for me
Click to expand...
Clearly not, since you dismissed all the times Thor directed his lightning or God-blast/Anti-Force/etc. as not examples of Thor controlling his own energy.

I guess you're also going to say that DBZ characters typically aren't actually planet level, because by your weird standard, they aren't shown to be controlling and directing their own energy.
 
None of us has dismissed that... It's already on the file. What you are proposing is completely different.


Also, can we please stop with constant dragon ball comparison. And for the record, I disagree with all dB tiering, so yes.
 
I really don't know what you want here. If I remember, this was an actual statement by Toriyama that this is an actual thing they do. You can ask other Dragon Ball members on the site to confirm and even if there's not, Ki control is something prevalent in DB. You can see that by searching it yourself if you want.

Show us a statement in which this is said by a writer in Marvel in the case of Thor. And even if you do, it might not even hold up today depending on how consistent it is currently.
 
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