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Gojo VS Makima • (13-2-1) • Grace
- Thread starter Phoenks
- Start date
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Where the heck does Pheonks find all this beautiful art though lol
Zabazab
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Why would RCT of his brain nullify Conquest? All RCT is doing is healing the damage that 24/7 Limitless does to his brain, specifically the right prefrontal cortex. It has never freed him from mind control afaik.
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Gojo FRA as well for me
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Zerochan i think?
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Hanami. Him restoring parts of his brain again consistently would also mean Makima would have to apply it consistently which doesn't work in her favor.
Also again, the way how bodies work in JJK is that the body acts as a domain in of itself, something metaphysical in nature.
Zabazab
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Hanami's pretty-flowers empath hax? That isn't comparable to Conquest at all, and people without RCT (Yuji) have been able to quickly snap out of it.
Bodies containing domains shouldn't grant them mind hax resistance either, it's not on their profiles. All that's listed for it is that it prevents spawning attacks inside them.
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Isn't that most AE type 2?
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I mean it could register cleave and dismantle pretty easily(without domain or space cuts) hence why sukuna had to jump through 40 hoops to be able to slash gojo and cleave and dismantle fall into the same invisible and thought based projectile like bang, I mean they are boredline identical expect that one is a cutting force and the other is a blast like one, hell I'd go as far as saying sukuna's cleave is a lot closer to TK than even blast since makima actually has to aim her finger and say bang while sukuna has shown the ability to just look at you and turn you into meat cubes
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oh and I am voting gojo, he should pretty comfortably slam makima even with her advantage of the whole japanese citizen thing, it very in character for gojo to jump domain you when he gets bored or sees you are not going down (I mean the guy opened his domain against jogo that poor shmuck) and when that domain comes out makima is done for the next few thousand years cuse it don't matter if makima can transfer the knowledge as its being droped on her since ya know infinite sets of info fluding your brain and all although do got to say rip japan cuse this fight ends with everyone in the nation having their brain melting out of their nose.
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I mean gojo is basically a massive smurf if you don't have space hax and info hax.
Zabazab
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I still don't feel that the arguments against Conquest working are very convincing. This explanation from a blog is a bit of a lengthy one, but it covers my thoughts pretty well:
In comparison however, Makima’s best winning ability is far easier to land, with Gojo lacking proper counters: Control. Her using Control on someone like Gojo would not be out of character. She has no reason to view him as something special just because he is strong, considering she has seen plenty of equally strong foes in the past anyways, and it is not like she is trying to hide her identity as the Control Devil during this fight. Due to Control specifically going after the mind (Control is stated to target the brain), it would bypass Infinity completely, and once she lands it Gojo will be under her grip with no method of breaking out.
Makima can tell Gojo to turn off Infinity and let himself be obliterated by her devils, can order him to straight up kill himself, can seal away or alter his memories so he forgets how to do anything, can change his personality to the point where he acts like a dog, or can force him to make a contract with her and thus be under her control forever. Gojo being able to quickly break out of Hanami’s Flower Field does not mean he would be able to resist Control, as that technique specifically reduces will-power, and is far less impressive than what we have seen Control do: bypassing layered memory manipulation, altering senses, dominating minds with a word, and more.
Gojo has two arguments related to Reverse Cursed Technique for escaping the grip of Control, though both have clear issues. The first argument is that due to constantly refreshing his brain 24/7 to keep Infinity passive, Gojo’s brain would just immediately turn Control off. However, this refresh is specifically just keeping his brain from tiring out so he can optimize the usage of his Cursed Energy. There is no reason to assume it would break a mental grip on him outright.
The second argument is that Gojo has shown to be able to destroy a specific part of his brain, and then immediately heal it, in order to reuse Domain Expansion. It has been shown in Chainsaw Man that most mental attacks specifically target the brain, and Nayuta states herself that Control targets the brain. Thus, it would actually make sense that Gojo destroying his brain temporarily would disrupt Control, and thus let him break out.
The crucial flaw with this argument is that once Gojo is under Control, he would not be capable of independent thought. So he would not be able to try and destroy his brain and escape Control in the first place. Even then, assuming Gojo would conclude that brain destruction would counter mind control in the first place is odd, as mind control is a power he has never had to deal with at all, and destroying part of his own brain to counter mind control is something he has never thought of nor used the brain destruction for in the first place.
One could argue that the Angel Devil and Power breaking out of Control could imply that Gojo could escape it through sheer will power, though both of those examples are very context specific. For Angel, they got their lost memories back by seeing Aki go through the exact same experience they had gone through when Makima originally put them under Control, and in the same location as well. Even after breaking out, Makima just put Angel under Control again right after.
As for Power, it is rather vague, though it could be due to her being helped by Pochita, or a similar case to Angel where she was reminded of her past. Power’s instance of resisting Control could also simply be a case of her resisting mind control, rather than the scene itself being an anti-feat for Control. Regardless of the interpretation, Gojo would not be able to replicate it regardless of how it was countered: he would not have outside influence like Pochita, he would not have any reason to have some huge will enhancing flashback as nothing in the fight would prompt previous memories, and Gojo himself has not shown a resistance to mind control.
Additionally, Gojo has no argument to counter his memories or personality being altered whatsoever, especially since Makima’s memory power would be layered.
Makima can tell Gojo to turn off Infinity and let himself be obliterated by her devils, can order him to straight up kill himself, can seal away or alter his memories so he forgets how to do anything, can change his personality to the point where he acts like a dog, or can force him to make a contract with her and thus be under her control forever. Gojo being able to quickly break out of Hanami’s Flower Field does not mean he would be able to resist Control, as that technique specifically reduces will-power, and is far less impressive than what we have seen Control do: bypassing layered memory manipulation, altering senses, dominating minds with a word, and more.
Gojo has two arguments related to Reverse Cursed Technique for escaping the grip of Control, though both have clear issues. The first argument is that due to constantly refreshing his brain 24/7 to keep Infinity passive, Gojo’s brain would just immediately turn Control off. However, this refresh is specifically just keeping his brain from tiring out so he can optimize the usage of his Cursed Energy. There is no reason to assume it would break a mental grip on him outright.
The second argument is that Gojo has shown to be able to destroy a specific part of his brain, and then immediately heal it, in order to reuse Domain Expansion. It has been shown in Chainsaw Man that most mental attacks specifically target the brain, and Nayuta states herself that Control targets the brain. Thus, it would actually make sense that Gojo destroying his brain temporarily would disrupt Control, and thus let him break out.
The crucial flaw with this argument is that once Gojo is under Control, he would not be capable of independent thought. So he would not be able to try and destroy his brain and escape Control in the first place. Even then, assuming Gojo would conclude that brain destruction would counter mind control in the first place is odd, as mind control is a power he has never had to deal with at all, and destroying part of his own brain to counter mind control is something he has never thought of nor used the brain destruction for in the first place.
One could argue that the Angel Devil and Power breaking out of Control could imply that Gojo could escape it through sheer will power, though both of those examples are very context specific. For Angel, they got their lost memories back by seeing Aki go through the exact same experience they had gone through when Makima originally put them under Control, and in the same location as well. Even after breaking out, Makima just put Angel under Control again right after.
As for Power, it is rather vague, though it could be due to her being helped by Pochita, or a similar case to Angel where she was reminded of her past. Power’s instance of resisting Control could also simply be a case of her resisting mind control, rather than the scene itself being an anti-feat for Control. Regardless of the interpretation, Gojo would not be able to replicate it regardless of how it was countered: he would not have outside influence like Pochita, he would not have any reason to have some huge will enhancing flashback as nothing in the fight would prompt previous memories, and Gojo himself has not shown a resistance to mind control.
Additionally, Gojo has no argument to counter his memories or personality being altered whatsoever, especially since Makima’s memory power would be layered.
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Voting Gojo fra.
Though I will say that the rules for this battle kinda don’t make sense.
Gojo being a Japanese citizen yet Makima having no knowledge makes no sense.
Like does Makima just not know about curses in a world where both they and devils like her exist? And if she does know about curses there’s no way she doesn’t know Gojo.
I know that the rules are only meant to be for the sake of this battle, but still.
Though I will say that the rules for this battle kinda don’t make sense.
Gojo being a Japanese citizen yet Makima having no knowledge makes no sense.
Like does Makima just not know about curses in a world where both they and devils like her exist? And if she does know about curses there’s no way she doesn’t know Gojo.
I know that the rules are only meant to be for the sake of this battle, but still.
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that argument fails to take into acount a number fo things as well as putting a number of assumtions out there that have no solid proof.
1. gojo has already broken out of a mental ability the flower field of hanami which specifically effects the mind of the opponent and he broke out of it in like 3 seconds flat.
2. Makima's ability is entirly based on her preciving herself as your supirior be it with hybrids, humans or devils as we see that makima brought reze near death before she had her under her control meaning that she first had to prove her supiriority to her and she did because if she didn't have to do that what was the point of doing it in the first place just to put her under her control a few dozen chapters later? same goes for Quanxi who she brought near death first and then later had her under control. Kishibe was not under her control and would not follow her commands even though he was right next to her and hell the guy put together a whole makima execution squad, chainsawman was uneffected after a bit but that one is an unfair example all things considered, Power outright broke the control through will and emotional attachment and angel broke out for a bit himself. Makima's control isn't some "HA I AM BETTER THAN YOU SO I WIN" type ability she outrigh needs to believe she is supirior to you for control to take effect which is not happening with gojo what so ever not only does he simply not look or act akin to a normal human (I mean hell a man walking through the literal air would make you question thing) but gojo also posses a strong enough aura of cused energy to the point where people who can precive it where scared straight once seeing him as a child and gojo has gotten just a little bit stronger than his 8 year old self I must say and even if you want to claim that makima would not be able see his CE she would most definitly feel it since that stuff can ingulf and even effect none organic objects and even souls themselves, hell we even have an example massive CE being able to be noticed by a person who doesn't have CE themselves aka the recently resurrected toji fushigoro. The moment sukuna recived his 15th finger and took control of yuji toji who can't see CE(he can "see" cursed spirits but that is not through actually being able to precive the CE they are made up of but seeing the fluctuations in the air and tempreture around the spirits) was able to feel sukuna from the other side of shibuya meaning makima should be able to feel gojo in a 1V1 and she would feel that there is clearly something off and if gojo were to show off as he usually does it would further put makima's ability to use control on him into the unlikely category.
3. makima's own abilities and personality kinda gimp her here, she has clairvoyance and used it to learn the names of 30 thugs that where going to capture denji and in this fight if she uses it once to see who and what gojo is her ability to use control is going straight out the window.
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Gojo doesn't even currently have aura, don't think we can add matches where the winner wins due to something his profile doesn't even list
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yeah those profs really need to big fixed cuse holy moly that is like one of the few things that is constantly been smashed over our heads with how CE has an aura to it(plus ya know gojo actually outright showing on panel that he has a flowing massive CE aura around him)
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That wasn't even 15 finger Sukuna, that scene chronologically coincides with Jogo sensing the presence of the single finger Nanako and Mimiko released
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Once again, Makima's is biological. She doesn't effect the mind itself, her form of mind manipulation works by specially targeting the brain.
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Probably should list that it's the [Sorcerer] section tho
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It shouldn't be there exclusively for sorcerers because cursed spirits and cursed objects can exert an aura too
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Oh damn so its even worse than I though? well damn.
Zabazab
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This is covered by the argument. I know it's long, but please read all of it.
She sees humans the same way humans see dogs. She inherently believes herself to be superior.
This will likely be removed, but either way just knowing his name won't make her think she isn't superior.
This also summarizes my thoughts on her just percieving Gojo as Him.
The big flaw regarding this argument however is Makima’s knowledge of Gojo. With the two meeting up in a theoretical versus scenario where neither has any prior knowledge about the other, Makima would know nothing of Gojo’s accomplishments and status. While Gojo when he was younger was shown to be able to scare hitmen with a simple glare, which could be used to argue that his presence alone would impress Makima, this alone is not enough of an argument. Similar cases of characters having imposing presences have existed in Chainsaw Man, including both potent humans like Quanxi or absurdly strong monsters such as the Darkness Devil. Now obviously, Makima did not Control these characters. But that is not the point. The point is Gojo simply being intimidating is nothing noteworthy compared to what Makima has seen in the past. In fact, she herself can be just as intimidating as Gojo can be. Thus, Gojo simply being “scary” is not enough of an argument to say that Makima would see him as above her.
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I like how you ignored 90% of my arguments there with the examples of humans not being effected by that ability straight away or at all.
Zabazab
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Hybrids aren't human, and don't fall under her auto-superior train of thought.
She had no need to Conquer Kishibe because he wasn't a threat to her. She literally tells him "Shooting me is useless.", then Pochita kills her and the fight continues without Kishibe. The Anti-Makima squad hit her with a surprise attack and were killing her in rapid shifts so she couldn't order them or use a Devil.
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well if that is your point than what is to stop her from not pressiving gojo as a threat cuse he is "just" a human, untill he shows off his busted bullshit and makes makima question if she could beat him and as such making her question her supiriority to him making control moot?
Zabazab
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Because she is bloodlusted, she REALLY wants Gojo done in, so she'll end the fight with her quickest and strongest move, which is Conquest.
Zabazab
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This is already stated in the argument, it targeting the brain doesn't mean Gojo will be immune for whatever reason.
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also forgot to go other this, that arguement is a poor one because it precives the idea that gojo scary two seasoned assasin's with supernatural abilities as an 8 year old is not impressive and fails to take into account all the other examples of CE aura's scary people to death and gojo having one of the biggest and most potent aura's in the verse to the point where him going out for a bit in shibuya caused all curses to be scared shitless of that spot for well over a month.
Zabazab
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Makima cannot sense Cursed Energy.
As for a generic bloodlust aura which he may or may not have, Makima was fine in the presence of the Darkness Devil, who was able to drive Fiends like Pingtsi into near-paralysis or attempt suicide, just because they knew it was watching them.
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that isn't her strongest move in character and from what she would use if she wants someone dead straight away would be her bang, since THAT is her most powerful offensive move.
You are treating bloodlusted as some ah yes let me plan out what ability of mine would be most useful in this fight and it isn't that, its BLOODLUST, its " I WANT TO TURN THAT BASTARD INSIDE OUT" which would lead makima into using her bang which is a move she in character constantly uses to kill people quickly or to push out damage as soon as possible so she will be using that first and when she sees that it doesn't reach gojo/doesn't do any damage to gojo she will start second guessing and that is control out the window again.
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dude normal people can. hell mister I got none of that cursed shit fushiguro who can only see CE through air fluctiontions could feel 1 of sukuna's fingers being unsealed from a whole city block away. So makima who already has enchanced senses would most certently feel cursed energy.
Magicomethkuon
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This tbh. Also without prior knowledge Makima has several options that she would think can instantly kill. It's not even guaranteed that conquest comes first. Not that I think it stays either because as soon as it starts either she realizes immediately that the guy matches her or she does something that she thinks will kill, it doesn't and she realizes he isn't a fly.
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Mei Mei solos both.
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Give me one time where she actually used control first, not beating the person down and then havin them under her control later.
I can save you some time right now if you want, it happens one with angel after he already demonstrated that he was a pacifist who was unwilling to use his powers
also again bloodlusted is the point bordering on going berserk her first move isn't going to be let me just put you under my control, its gonna be I want you dead so "bang wait why didn't that do anything" at which point game over
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