Benimōru
He/Him- 468
- 405
Starting note: I was planning to open this as a content revision, but I was told here that I should open something like this as a staff thread. So please excuse me this time if I am doing something wrong.
So, as you can see in the title, I am going to address a topic that I have been wondering for a long time why nobody has opened a downgrade thread for this.
And before addressing this issue, I suggest you read the cosmology blog and the other two threads where this topic is discussed so that you can make a more informed comment. You can also read this for more information.
Now let me get to the point.
First of all, here is the cosmology blog's explanation of why The Space Beyond is Possibly L1-C (5-D):
But is the Space Beyond really infinitely bigger than these 2-A structures and if so, does the fact that it is really infinitely bigger make it L1-C?
The answer is no. The only thing we have is that Space Beyond sees these infinite structures as stars, and it is never stated whether this is a direct size comparison or whether it has to do with distance. And even if we take it as a direct size comparison, it should not make the Space Beyond have a size of Aleph_1.
Why is that?
1. It is not said that Space Beyond sees these structures as infinitesimally small or that it is infinitely bigger than them. Nor has it been proven that there really is a size difference in a sufficient sense. It was just assumed on the basis of a single scene.
2. Seeing something as infinitesimally small is not the same as being infinitely bigger than that thing. The reason why infinitesimally small is considered a qualitative superiority on the FAQ page is to make the size comparison mentioned here seem so small that it has no weight, so small that it takes up no space in the higher dimensional plane. So seeing an infinite structure as the size of a star is not the same thing. And being infinitely bigger than something is simply a situation where one will appear to be bigger than the other, but in fact they will be equal in terms of cardinality, just like the relationship between rational numbers and real numbers, unless it can be proven that it refers to cardinality. So being infinitely bigger than something should be interpreted the same as being infinitely times bigger than it (unless shown otherwise) which just means Aleph_0 x Aleph_0 and doesn't get you to Aleph_1 (Cuz Wiki accepts the continuum hypothesis as correct - proof: here, here, here and here).
If I need to support this with standards/staff comments:
1. Everything12
The quote right above is Everything12's comment about the Space Beyond btw. And what he is saying here is exactly the logic of "we don't have detailed information about the size difference between them". Because there is only one scene that shows the difference between the Space Beyond and the 2-A universes, and that doesn't give us any proper information (to say that this is a qualitative superiority).
2. DontTalkDT
3. Ultima_Reality
So, as I explained above, the Space Beyond is completely lacking the contexts to have a Possibly L1-C (5-D) rating.
Now let's move on to the Time Stream
The reason why it is considered as "At least L1-C (5-D)/Possiby 6-D":
The problem here, as in the case of the Space Beyond, is that it lacks sufficient context.
It has L1-C (5-D), Possibly 6-D because it contains the Fabric of Existence, which includes the Space Beyond, within its walls and "supposedly" sees these walls as 2D.
Now let's look at the scans of the walls, which are said to be 2D:
In the 5th photo, the boundaries of these walls are drawn as lines, so it is claimed that Time Stream sees these walls in 2-D and is therefore qualitatively superior to it.
Which, again, lacks any statement or supporting evidence. The additional evidence needed for qualitative superiority based on a single image (and it is not clear whether this is drawn this way to refer to an actual dimensional difference) is ignored.
And in the same way, this thread claims that this whole structure is infinitely bigger than the Space Beyond, but again, it lacks the statements that say this. The only reason they claim this is because the Time Stream is bigger, it contains this structure inside of itself and the 2-D walls scan, which has no proof and is just an assumption.
So I'm suggesting that both Space Beyond and Time Stream should be downgraded back to 2-A if additional context is not presented.
I also feel @Georredannea15 has as much right to write in this staff thread as I do, as he helped me prepare this, so I would appreciate it if any staff member would not delete his comments.
Votes for 2-A Space Beyond;
Agree: @Georredannea15, @Qawsedf234, @Larssx, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DarkDragonMedeus, @ProfectusInfinity, @TheGreatJedi13, @Firestorm808 (Possibly L1-C), @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Tanin_iver, @Everything12
Disagree: @Reiner
Neutral:
Votes for 2-A Time Stream;
Agree: @ProfectusInfinity, @Qawsedf234, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DarkDragonMedeus, @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Firestorm808 (Possibly L1-C), @Georredannea15, @Everything12
Disagree: @Tanin_iver
Neutral:
So, as you can see in the title, I am going to address a topic that I have been wondering for a long time why nobody has opened a downgrade thread for this.
And before addressing this issue, I suggest you read the cosmology blog and the other two threads where this topic is discussed so that you can make a more informed comment. You can also read this for more information.
Now let me get to the point.
First of all, here is the cosmology blog's explanation of why The Space Beyond is Possibly L1-C (5-D):
The Space Beyond is an infinite black void that extends past the boundaries of the universe and encompasses an infinite number of them, dwarfing them to mere being a insignificant tiny stars or a faint glow.[4] This space separates Universes from each other and isn't accessible via general dimension crossing devices except by for the Map of infinity and the Chrono Navigator. Due to the Space Beyond being bigger than the Universe which is an aleph null structure containing infinite dimensions/realms, the Space beyond can be deduced mathematically to at least be an Aleph 1 structure.
But is the Space Beyond really infinitely bigger than these 2-A structures and if so, does the fact that it is really infinitely bigger make it L1-C?
The answer is no. The only thing we have is that Space Beyond sees these infinite structures as stars, and it is never stated whether this is a direct size comparison or whether it has to do with distance. And even if we take it as a direct size comparison, it should not make the Space Beyond have a size of Aleph_1.
Why is that?
1. It is not said that Space Beyond sees these structures as infinitesimally small or that it is infinitely bigger than them. Nor has it been proven that there really is a size difference in a sufficient sense. It was just assumed on the basis of a single scene.
2. Seeing something as infinitesimally small is not the same as being infinitely bigger than that thing. The reason why infinitesimally small is considered a qualitative superiority on the FAQ page is to make the size comparison mentioned here seem so small that it has no weight, so small that it takes up no space in the higher dimensional plane. So seeing an infinite structure as the size of a star is not the same thing. And being infinitely bigger than something is simply a situation where one will appear to be bigger than the other, but in fact they will be equal in terms of cardinality, just like the relationship between rational numbers and real numbers, unless it can be proven that it refers to cardinality. So being infinitely bigger than something should be interpreted the same as being infinitely times bigger than it (unless shown otherwise) which just means Aleph_0 x Aleph_0 and doesn't get you to Aleph_1 (Cuz Wiki accepts the continuum hypothesis as correct - proof: here, here, here and here).
If I need to support this with standards/staff comments:
1. Everything12
The Tier above 2-A is Tier 1-C So to be a higher Tier than 2-A is Low 1-C. Like being bigger than countable infinity is uncountable infinity. But the countable infinite natural numbers is included within the intergers which some would assume to be bigger than them, yet they are also just countably infinite. So you can seem to be bigger than baseline 2-A infinity but you aren't actually any bigger.
to use this form of argument you must prove that the difference between the countable infinite structure and the other elements is akin to that of uncountable infinite. Just because the element is outside the structure does not prove that they are bigger, such as with how the likes of the intergers or rational numbers are no greater than the natural numbers. You need to have evidence of a qualitative difference. No matter what form of argument you mean, no matter what sciences you bring. A qualitative difference is as important to reaching Tier 1 as Cantor's diagonal was to proving uncountable infinite exists and that the nature of the real numbers was different to that of the rational numbers.
The quote right above is Everything12's comment about the Space Beyond btw. And what he is saying here is exactly the logic of "we don't have detailed information about the size difference between them". Because there is only one scene that shows the difference between the Space Beyond and the 2-A universes, and that doesn't give us any proper information (to say that this is a qualitative superiority).
Kinda got it the wrong way around, I'm not saying that anything bigger than 2-A is Low 1-C like anything bigger than countable infinity is uncountable infinity. I'm saying that unless your bigger than 2-A in a certain qualitative way then you aren't actually bigger and Low 1-C, like only the real numbers are uncountable infinite while the integers and rationals are just countable infinite.
2. DontTalkDT
Infinitely larger in general doesn't get you to Low 1-C whether from Low 2-C or from 2-A. You need qualitative superiority and then it's the case for both. Proving qualitative superiority is where you might find differences. Being infinitely larger than a 2-A space is certainly better supportive evidence than just being infinitely larger than a Low 2-C space. However, it's not a sufficient criteria.
3. Ultima_Reality
As far as being larger than infinitely-sized objects or spaces goes, one must analyze the context of the feat in question to determine if it truly qualifies for Higher-Dimensional Existence. In terms of volume (Or, more generally, measure), the only way to be truly bigger than an object of infinite size is to have a non-zero size in a space of more dimensions than the object in question. However, portrayals of more expansive realms containing infinitely large things within themselves are not necessarily indicative of such. A good construction to exemplify this is the topological space known as the long line. In essence, it is a space obtained by taking an uncountably infinite number of line segments and “gluing” them together end-to-end, and so it is in some sense much longer than the real line, which is comprised of only a countably infinite number of such line segments. Nevertheless, they are both 1-dimensional spaces. The long line itself can also be generalized into 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional analogues, and as such the same principle holds for higher dimensions as well.
So, as I explained above, the Space Beyond is completely lacking the contexts to have a Possibly L1-C (5-D) rating.
Now let's move on to the Time Stream
The reason why it is considered as "At least L1-C (5-D)/Possiby 6-D":
This realm is the highest level of creation. The Timestream is a system that bounds all of existence with a system of cause and effect[6] (All timelines, all alternate realities, all of existence, including the space beyond[7]) in the form of a fabric. The Timestream is a kind of super imposing Time that orders all of creation Post-Annihilargh events from beginning to End. The Timestream is an infinite structure.[3] The rainbow and black void which orders all of existence trivializes everything as nothing more than insignificant fabric or paper, including the space beyond.
The problem here, as in the case of the Space Beyond, is that it lacks sufficient context.
It has L1-C (5-D), Possibly 6-D because it contains the Fabric of Existence, which includes the Space Beyond, within its walls and "supposedly" sees these walls as 2D.
Now let's look at the scans of the walls, which are said to be 2D:
In the 5th photo, the boundaries of these walls are drawn as lines, so it is claimed that Time Stream sees these walls in 2-D and is therefore qualitatively superior to it.
Which, again, lacks any statement or supporting evidence. The additional evidence needed for qualitative superiority based on a single image (and it is not clear whether this is drawn this way to refer to an actual dimensional difference) is ignored.
And in the same way, this thread claims that this whole structure is infinitely bigger than the Space Beyond, but again, it lacks the statements that say this. The only reason they claim this is because the Time Stream is bigger, it contains this structure inside of itself and the 2-D walls scan, which has no proof and is just an assumption.
So I'm suggesting that both Space Beyond and Time Stream should be downgraded back to 2-A if additional context is not presented.
I also feel @Georredannea15 has as much right to write in this staff thread as I do, as he helped me prepare this, so I would appreciate it if any staff member would not delete his comments.
Votes for 2-A Space Beyond;
Agree: @Georredannea15, @Qawsedf234, @Larssx, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DarkDragonMedeus, @ProfectusInfinity, @TheGreatJedi13, @Firestorm808 (Possibly L1-C), @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Tanin_iver, @Everything12
Disagree: @Reiner
Neutral:
Votes for 2-A Time Stream;
Agree: @ProfectusInfinity, @Qawsedf234, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DarkDragonMedeus, @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Firestorm808 (Possibly L1-C), @Georredannea15, @Everything12
Disagree: @Tanin_iver
Neutral:
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