Ben 10 Revision - 6-D and 7-D Removal

[Aachintya31]

This thread was made where Space-beyond was accepted to be a Low 1-C (5-D) structure. However ,somehow maybe due to some miscommunication Fabric of existence and Timestream were accepted to be 6-D and 7-D. This thread is made to correct that.

Previously accepted things.

Fabric of existence being flat on Timestream makes it higher dimensional than space-beyond i.e 7-D

Being flat on something doesn't make it higher dimensional.

Papers are flat to us doesn't mean we are higher dimensional to paper
The FAQ also mentions this

1. Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power.

Timestream containing the fabric of existence in a ring form makes it higher dimensional than fabric of existence i.e 7-D

Containing a Lower dimensional structure doesn't make the structure containing it higher dimensional without explicit statements for qualitative superiority.
The timestream or fabric of existence cannot be accepted anything more higher dimensional than space-beyond solely based on visuals because there wasn't any elaboration on that aspect by show and comes under abusing the visuals.

I am fine with Space-beyond being 5-D as it was already extensively discussed in this thread. However, at the end due to some confusion things got pretty mixed up landing the cosmology to 7-D.

TLDR;

Yeet 6-D and 7-D
Timestream will be downgraded to 5-D

Vote Tally :
6-D Timestream - @DarkDragonMedeus ,@DarkGrath ,@Firestorm808

 

[Reiner04]

It's ben 10 ten ten ten

Seems fine

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree.

 

[Vasco]

I wanted to make it, anyways i agree with the OP.

 

[Reiner04]

Too sad, ben 10 was just vsbw most active verse few days before, it's dead again.

 

[Forthegood]

I don't understand isn't the space beyond solely 5D based on the fact that the universes were 2A shouldn't that also be tossed away ? Since it was downgraded too 2B possibly 2A.

 

[Aachintya31]

Since it was downgraded too 2B possibly 2A.

No

 

[Vasco]

I don't understand isn't the space beyond solely 5D based on the fact that the universes were 2A shouldn't that also be tossed away ? Since it was downgraded too 2B possibly 2A.

Possibly 2-A kinda exist, so no.

 

[Reiner04]

Since it was downgraded too 2B possibly 2A.

Ben was just throwing a random number around (as discussed in previous downgrade crt and accepted by everyone ) and low-balled holiday statement, so 2B is not the case at all but possibly infinite Dimensions aka possibly 2A.

 

[Reiner04]

Man this thread is deader than I expected...

I agree.

Mav, Can you please tag few staff members to take a look at it?

 

[Shadowbeast]

Agreed with this, i don't even know why 6D and 7D was proposed in the new scaling thread when the arguments of the original Tier 1 thread of Timestream and the Space Beyond were only referencing 5D things.

 

[Vasco]

Reiner thread only got accepted on 5-D, somehow 6-D and even 7-D appeared out of nowhere, 7-D wasn't even mentioned in any past CRT so I heard.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@Everything12 @Eficiente @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @Theglassman12

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral for now, but will wait for Firestorm.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yeah reading the original thread I’m not sure where 6-D and even 7-D even came from.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

7-D also sounds like a stretch to me tbh, not sure if "Timelines being 2-A" was how that got to it. Or even 6-D, I suppose I'm leaning towards a downgrade to 5-D being fine unless Firestorm has anything to say about it.

 

[DemonicDude]

It's ben 10 ten ten ten

Seems fine

Reiner FRA

 

[Everything12]

This seems to look fine.

 

[Shadowbeast]

Yeah reading the original thread I’m not sure where 6-D and even 7-D even came from.

Iirc it was supposedly because of qualitative superiority between each cosmological structure, although this 7-D thing has not even been touched on in previous threads, not even in Reiner's first attempt to upgrade Ben 10 to tier 1.

 

[DemonicDude]

Reiner's first attempt to upgrade Ben 10 to tier 1.

first and the ONLY attempt to upgrade Ben 10 to tier 1

 

[Firestorm808]

Per the FAQ, that rule only applies to characters, not entire environments, realms and dimensions.

If an entire realm is infinitesimal in a different realm, that new realm would be qualitatively superior.

In this case, the Space Beyond is infinitesimal to the surface of the Fabric of Existance. The Space Beyond is the 1-D subset of a 2-D plane of a 3-D cylinder in this new realm.

 

[Reiner04]

rule only applies to characters

Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power

Oh well yeah, now that I think about it.. FAQ is talking about how a higher dimensional character doesn't necessarily have infinite more power over lower dimensions because they can have same mass and energy as of lower Dimensional beings.. it's not talking about space, space doesn't need mass or energy as it's not about power in the first place.

 

[Firestorm808]

Also, since when did being called higher dimensional mean anything on this site?

The whole point of the Tiering FAQ is to say that words of transcendence and higher dimensionality mean nothing unless you show characteristics of qualitative superiority.

Showing the characteristics of qualitative superiority is all that matters, not names and labels.

 

[DemonicDude]

Common Firestorm W.

 

[Vasco]

Per the FAQ, that rule only applies to characters, not entire environments, realms and dimensions.

If an entire realm is infinitesimal in a different realm, that new realm would be qualitatively superior.

In this case, the Space Beyond is infinitesimal to the surface of the Fabric of Existance. The Space Beyond is the 1-D subset of a 2-D plane of a 3-D cylinder in this new realm.

A paper is 3-D same with a 3-D spatial dimension.

Any finite size dimension/realm in an infinite sized dimension is automatically infinitesimal compared to the infinite sized construct.

Just being infinitesimal alone isn't enough if no proof the Fabric of existence is from a higher dimensional space and qualitatively superior to it plus can we see the scan it's stated so?

Also, since when did being called higher dimensional mean anything on this site?

The whole point of the Tiering FAQ is to say that words of transcendence and higher dimensionality mean nothing unless you show characteristics of qualitative superiority.

Showing the characteristics of qualitative superiority is all that matters, not names and labels.

And you didn't really prove but just saying infinitesimal and all that, can we see the scans of such statement.

 

[Reiner04]

A paper is 3-D same with a 3-D spatial dimension.

I don't think that fiction will show an entire low 1C structure as flat in some other realm but that other realm will not have a extra Dimension which can reduce all of that size to just being flat... Occam's razor applies here.

 

[Vasco]

I don't think that fiction will show an entire low 1C structure as flat in some other realm but that other realm will not have a extra Dimension which can reduce all of that size to just being flat... Occam's razor applies here.

It happens in some franchises especially that which are inside books/papers, I don't understand the bolded part, could you clarify more, can I see the scan of the space beyond being infinitesimal in the fabric of existence and proof of the higher infinities shown in ben 10 on it over space beyond cause I don't think the fabric of existence exists in a different space from the space beyond.

 

[Fixxed]

Just being infinitesimal alone isn't enough if no proof the Fabric of existence is from a higher dimensional space and qualitatively superior to it plus can we see the scan it's stated so?

Being infinitesimall is enough, but many people missunderstand about it, being finite in infinite structure is not necessary infinitesimall. Being infinitesimall is mean being very very limited by that structure, yeah being subset (proper subset) of it, not just contain in it structure alone

 

[Firestorm808]

@Dereck03 , @DarkGrath, @Elizhaa , @Sir_Ovens, @Ultima_Reality

You input on the matter is appreciated.

Per the FAQ, that rule only applies to characters, not entire environments, realms and dimensions.

If an entire realm is infinitesimal in a different realm, that new realm would be qualitatively superior.

In this case, the Space Beyond is infinitesimal to the surface of the Fabric of Existance. The Space Beyond is the 1-D subset of a 2-D plane of a 3-D cylinder in this new realm.

Also, since when did being called higher dimensional mean anything on this site?

The whole point of the Tiering FAQ is to say that words of transcendence and higher dimensionality mean nothing unless you show characteristics of qualitative superiority.

Showing the characteristics of qualitative superiority is all that matters, not names and labels.

 

[Vasco]

Being infinitesimall is enough, but many people missunderstand about it, being finite in infinite structure is not necessary infinitesimall. Being infinitesimall is mean being very very limited by that structure, yeah being subset (proper subset) of it, not just contain in it structure alone

Yeah, Being infinitesimal is proof of qualitative superiority that also depends on context, besides infinitesimal objects don't have definite size since its extremely small its close to zero.

Besides where are the scans Ben 10 mentioned all these cause we're just talking statements without the scans itself.

 

[Vasco]

@Dereck03 , @DarkGrath, @Elizhaa , @Sir_Ovens, @Ultima_Reality

You input on the matter is appreciated.

Bro legit bring the scans let's all look at it, we keep talking but no scans, heck have been talking simply because I heard fabric of existence got 6-D due to space beyond being flat in it and that also no one dropped scans on it.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reiterate, we have the following:

Professor Paradox can travel to the Space Beyond. Per him, "This time beast's egg will power your journey to places beyond even my reach"

The Time Beasts allow Malturant and Ben to leave the Space Beyond and go further. They leave the fabric of existence to the realm of the Time Stream Structure.

The Space Beyond is so infinitesimal to the Fabric of Existence you can't even see it on its surface.

The Space Beyond is the 1-D subset of a 2-D plane of a 3-D cylinder in this new realm.

The Space Beyond:

The Fabric of Existence:

The Cylindrical Time Stream Structure

 

[Reiner04]

Since being flat was for characters rather than space itself. I am neutral for now.

 

[Aachintya31]

The Space Beyond is so infinitesimal to the Fabric of Existence you can't even see it on its surface.

The Space Beyond is so infinitesimal to the Fabric of Existence you can't even see it on its surface.

This is headcanon. We don't get a comparison of Fabric of existence wrt to the Space beyond by a statement. Even visually the space-beyond isn't shown to be infinitesimal incomparison to the fabric of existence. You are assuming that to be the case.
Instead, the fabric of existence is just a portal leading to different moments of time as shown

 

[Firestorm808]

It's clearly stated and shown by Paradox that the realm of the time stream is beyond that of the space beyond.

Nothing you said contradicts the Fabric of existence being beyond the Space beyond and in turn the universes.

 

[Aachintya31]

It's clearly stated and shown by Paradox that the realm of the time stream is beyond that of the space beyond.

we cannot use terms like "Beyond" to prove qualitative superiority. Also no definite size comparison between fabric of existence and space beyond is shown unlike space beyond and universes.

 

[Elizhaa]

Just curious are there valid statements that states these places are infinite?

From what I recall, the (lower) dimensional structure needs to be infinite for qualitative superiority regarding the infinitesimal case; Ultima's reply described a similar case 2 Digit layer's size being needed to infinite otherwise, it wouldn't be enough for qualitative superiority: If the 2-Digit layer was infinitely large (From its own point of view, not that of the lower realms) and yet was contained inside of a finite box to 1-Digits, then that's certainly be a slam dunk on the matter of proving qualitative transcendence is at play here. Not so if it is finite, though.
Later evidence got accepted as sufficient to prove 2-Digit layer was infinite, though.

If there is no statement of the infinite size, it doesn't seems it could pass higher than 5-D.

 

[Firestorm808]

Just curious are there valid statements that states these places are infinite?

From what I recall, the (lower) dimensional structure needs to be infinite for qualitative superiority regarding the infinitesimal case; Ultima's reply described a similar case 2 Digit layer's size being needed to infinite otherwise, it wouldn't be enough for qualitative superiority: If the 2-Digit layer was infinitely large (From its own point of view, not that of the lower realms) and yet was contained inside of a finite box to 1-Digits, then that's certainly be a slam dunk on the matter of proving qualitative transcendence is at play here. Not so if it is finite, though.
Later evidence got accepted as sufficient to prove 2-Digit layer was infinite, though.

If there is no statement of the infinite size, it doesn't seems it could pass higher than 5-D.

I think I follow the digits and box analogy.

Yes, the Space Beyond is infinite from it's own perspective.

 

[Aachintya31]

in this case ,we are only assuming fabric of existence and timestream to be infinitely superior than the space-beyond based on visuals alone. There isn't any statement implying Fabric of existence and Timestream to be qualitatively superior to the space-beyond.

 

[Firestorm808]

Since when did only showing characteristics of qualitative superiority deny that superiority?

Even then, we have confirmation from Paradox that it is Beyond the Space Beyond.