Ben 10: Low 5-B downgrade/reinterpretation

[Ghengiroo115]

Hi y’all, so currently the Ben 10 verse has “possibly Low 5-B” for the main cast (as well as “possibly 5-B” for characters with large enough multipliers), however after mulling it over the past couple months I personally have a couple issues with this.

The Low 5-B feat in question is the Galvanic Mechamorphs remaking Galvan B, which was most recently calced at around 1.82 Zettatons. This feat scales to Original Series characters, who otherwise scale to around 6.21 Exatons. This is an almost 300x difference, which to me seems pretty high without any other supporting feats (especially for a verse as notoriously inconsistent as Ben 10). As much as I love the idea of Ben 10 characters being Low 5-B, I don’t think this is the way to do it.

Now I said “a couple issues”, and that’s because of who actually does this feat. The Galvanic Mechamorphs’ primary ability is to merge with technology to enhance it. Since Galvan B is an artificially modified moon that they merged with in order to remake it, I believe it would make much more sense to apply this as part of their merging ability rather than attributing it to their regular stats. Consequently this gives an actual tier to Upgrade’s merging ability, being “up to Low 5-B” rather than simply “higher”, although since the true limits of his powers were never shown I think his merging ability should still have a “possibly higher” rating.

So yeah that’s about it. Thoughts?

• Agree: @Accelerated_Evolution, @Jirenoffical, @Reiner04, @Greatsage13th,@Ednaxel2, @Maverick_Zero_X, @The_one_you_least_expect
• Disagree: @omegabronic, @Greenshifter
• Neutral: @zaraus (for now)

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Looks good

For Upgrade, i think he should be "Up to Low 5-B, possibly higher when merged with technology"

 

[Jirenoffical]

Agreed, this is just like when every mcu avengers members were 4c.

 

[Reiner04]

Seems okay.

 

[omegabronic]

The Moon is not technology for them to upgrade, there is no way for this to be tech manip when no tech is involved

 

[Reiner04]

The Moon is not technology for them to upgrade, there is no way for this to be tech manip when no tech is involved

Technically they did merged with the Moon, and Galvan B is cybernetically enhanced Moon iirc.

 

[Reiner04]

But hey, as side note, wouldn't UA humg upgrading via UA kevin in future will auto upgrade rest of the casts to even higher tier?

 

[omegabronic]

Technically they did merged with the Moon, and Galvan B is cybernetically enhanced Moon iirc.

Not really, it is only envolted with metal, but it isn't full technology per say

But hey, as side note, wouldn't UA humg upgrading via UA kevin in future will auto upgrade rest of the casts to even higher tier?

Until someome actually does that, someone would need to do said upgrade first

 

[Reiner04]

Until someome actually does that, someone would need to do said upgrade first

ARE U DOUBTING ME?

 

[omegabronic]

ARE U DOUBTING ME?

No balls

 

[Ghengiroo115]

The Moon is not technology for them to upgrade, there is no way for this to be tech manip when no tech is involved

Not really, it is only envolted with metal, but it isn't full technology per say

Malware merged with the entire moon (or at the very least the rocks that fell onto Galvan Mk. II) and his powers are just the reverse of a normal Mechamorph, plus Upgrade has been shown merging with only partly-cybernetic stuff before such as Rojo or Rex.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also now that I think about it, this feat is done by the Mechamorphs combining their powers together. Since the actual feat is calced at 5-B and was just divided by 199 to get the value for a single Mechamorph, doesn’t that mean Upgrade should either have 5-B with tech merging or at the very least 5-B with Mechamorph merging? I’m not sure if merging with other Mechamorphs on its own would count as typical “merging with technology”.

 

[omegabronic]

Malware merged with the entire moon (or at the very least the rocks that fell onto Galvan Mk. II) and his powers are just the reverse of a normal Mechamorph, plus Upgrade has been shown merging with only partly-cybernetic stuff before such as Rojo or Rex.

he absorbed the parts, he didn't enhanced them

Both rojo and rex had full machines in them, they weren't simply inanimate objects

To move those they would still need their own strentgh and they couldn't possibly upgrade it

 

[omegabronic]

Also now that I think about it, this feat is done by the Mechamorphs combining their powers together. Since the actual feat is calced at 5-B and was just divided by 199 to get the value for a single Mechamorph, doesn’t that mean Upgrade should either have 5-B with tech merging or at the very least 5-B with Mechamorph merging? I’m not sure if merging with other Mechamorphs on its own would count as typical “merging with technology”.

Again, he only Upgrades technology

 

[Ghengiroo115]

he absorbed the parts, he didn't enhanced them

His absorption powers are the merging powers of a regular Mechamorph but reversed. Both of their powers are based on tech manipulation, so if Malware can absorb something then a regular Mechamorph would be capable of merging with that same type of thing.

Both rojo and rex had full machines in them, they weren't simply inanimate objects

Actually I’m not sure why I mentioned Rojo because I’m pretty sure Upgrade just wraps around her or something, but with Rex we’re shown Upgrade phasing into him to cause the upgrade. This shows that Upgrade can merge with something organic as long as it’s even partly mechanical, such as the fragments of Galvan B.

Again, he only Upgrades technology

Yeah and Mechamorphs are technological beings, so is them combining into one the same thing as their normal merging or no?

 

[zaraus]

I'm neutral for now

 

[Ghengiroo115]

snip

Btw are you just against Upgrade being Low 5-B with merging or against the downgrade in general?

 

[Greatsage13th]

I. AGREE.

 

[omegabronic]

His absorption powers are the merging powers of a regular Mechamorph but reversed. Both of their powers are based on tech manipulation, so if Malware can absorb something then a regular Mechamorph would be capable of merging with that same type of thing.

Absorbtion is a regular mechamorf power, him absorbing means nothing on the fact that he still can't upgrade it

Actually I’m not sure why I mentioned Rojo because I’m pretty sure Upgrade just wraps around her or something, but with Rex we’re shown Upgrade phasing into him to cause the upgrade. This shows that Upgrade can merge with something organic as long as it’s even partly mechanical, such as the fragments of Galvan B.

no, rex is techbology, as in, nanis are the part of him upgrade upgraded, that was the whole point of what he did

Galvan B doesn't have that going for it, it is transformed rock, not technology

Yeah and Mechamorphs are technological beings, so is them combining into one the same thing as their normal merging or no?

no? Altho this seems to be off topic

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Absorbtion is a regular mechamorf power, him absorbing means nothing on the fact that he still can't upgrade it

A big part of Malware’s character is him believing he’s superior to the others because of his absorption powers, meaning regular Mechamorphs don’t have absorption powers. While their biology allows them to hold something within them, they can’t fully absorb it for some kind of power boost or transformation like Malware can. In Malware’s own words they can only “bend and stretch, mimic and manipulate only what others have created”.

no, rex is techbology, as in, nanis are the part of him upgrade upgraded, that was the whole point of what he did

Galvan B doesn't have that going for it, it is transformed rock, not technology

My main point was that Rex is filled with Nanites but is I believe still human outside of that. Upgrade being able to phase inside Rex despite him being human means anything organic that is partly technological would work the same way. With how Malware’s powers work and how he used the Helix to absorb the moon, it makes more sense for the entire moon to be partly cybernetic now rather than just the surface of it.

Though tbh I actually haven’t watched Generator Rex yet, so if I’m wrong and he’s not organic at all then just disregard all the Rex stuff.

no? Altho this seems to be off topic

The answer could affect Upgrade’s merging power (assuming the argument gets accepted of course), as him having the power to merge with other Mechamorphs means he has some kind of 5-B capabilities. I was just wondering if it should solely be when merging with Mechamorphs or if it should be a level he can reach with any kind of powerful enough tech.

Also considering how their gimmick is making stuff better than the sum of their parts, and how there are 199 Mechamorphs all doing that to each other, that could maybe lead to a massive amp and make them merging together no longer an additive boost.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with this downgrade, it always seemed iffy with me

 

[omegabronic]

A big part of Malware’s character is him believing he’s superior to the others because of his absorption powers, meaning regular Mechamorphs don’t have absorption powers.

Are you talking about the tech absorbtion? Again, the moon is not tech so this still doesn't apply to this

While their biology allows them to hold something within them, they can’t fully absorb it for some kind of power boost or transformation like Malware can. In Malware’s own words they can only “bend and stretch, mimic and manipulate only what others have created”.

Don't remember what the point of this point was, they not being able to upgrade something not technological is still a fact

My main point was that Rex is filled with Nanites but is I believe still human outside of that. Upgrade being able to phase inside Rex despite him being human means anything organic that is partly technological would work the same way.

the nanites are all around in Rex's body, Upgrade simply merged with the ones close to the skin to upgrade them

With how Malware’s powers work and how he used the Helix to absorb the moon, it makes more sense for the entire moon to be partly cybernetic now rather than just the surface of it.

What is this logic? Malware can absorb the moon by using a technology =/= the moon itself is technology, Malware can also absorb rocks and dirt, that doesn't prove anything

Though tbh I actually haven’t watched Generator Rex yet, so if I’m wrong and he’s not organic at all then just disregard all the Rex stuff.

the point is, Upgrade never fused with Rex himself, only with the nanites in him, which are not like integrated into him like a cyborg, they are inside him, Ben never fused with him biological parts, since Uograde can'r do that

The answer could affect Upgrade’s merging power (assuming the argument gets accepted of course), as him having the power to merge with other Mechamorphs means he has some kind of 5-B capabilities. I was just wondering if it should solely be when merging with Mechamorphs or if it should be a level he can reach with any kind of powerful enough tech.

I mean, when there is nothing to say that they fused in the first place

Also considering how their gimmick is making stuff better than the sum of their parts, and how there are 199 Mechamorphs all doing that to each other, that could maybe lead to a massive amp and make them merging together no longer an additive boost.

They......didn't fused together tho, no idea where this is coming from

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Are you talking about the tech absorbtion? Again, the moon is not tech so this still doesn't apply to this

My argument is that Azmuth’s experiment turned the moon (at least partly) cybernetic, which is how Malware absorbed it and the Mechamorphs remade it. Also the Mechamorphs were able to completely remake the moon to exactly how it used to be, which should only be possible for them to do with tech manipulation.

the nanites are all around in Rex's body, Upgrade simply merged with the ones close to the skin to upgrade them

I know how it works, but the thing is Upgrade is only able to merge with Rex because of his Nanites. If Rex was purely organic then Upgrade wouldn’t be able to phase into him at all. The Mechamorphs wouldn’t be able to remake Galvan B if the moon fragments were purely organic, so they have to be partly mechanical.

What is this logic? Malware can absorb the moon by using a technology =/= the moon itself is technology, Malware can also absorb rocks and dirt, that doesn't prove anything

Again, Malware can absorb or corrupt something as long as it’s even partially mechanical or artificial. We see this with Galvan B (a cybernetic moon), Galvan Mk. II (an artificial planet) and Ben’s aliens (which are artificial forms created by a piece of technology). However he’s never shown affecting fully-organic things, in fact we even see Malgax dust Max’s plumber gear without affecting Max at all.

I mean, when there is nothing to say that they fused in the first place

They......didn't fused together tho, no idea where this is coming from

They all held hands and then converged into one giant, black goo-looking thing.

 

[omegabronic]

My argument is that Azmuth’s experiment turned the moon (at least partly) cybernetic, which is how Malware absorbed it and the Mechamorphs remade it.

ehhh, you would need to provide proof of this, the max we see is that it is covered in metal/whatever the Mechamorphs are made of
it is never stated to have been cybernized(is this a word?)

Also the Mechamorphs were able to completely remake the moon to exactly how it used to be, which should only be possible for them to do with tech manipulation.

we don't know if it is the exact same as before, we don't have that information, besides as shown with malware, Mechamorps can absorb non tech, they just don't upgrade it, so they simply remade the moon and fixed it, the main point is that there was nothing to upgrade since it wasn't tech

I know how it works, but the thing is Upgrade is only able to merge with Rex because of his Nanites.

that's the point, he DIDN'T fused with Rex, he fused purely with his nanites, never with his biological human self

The Mechamorphs wouldn’t be able to remake Galvan B if the moon fragments were purely organic, so they have to be partly mechanical.

reason being? Malware can absorb non mecanical things pretty easily, no reason normal mechaphorms can't as well(specially when the feat in question is them doing just that)

Again, Malware can absorb or corrupt something as long as it’s even partially mechanical or artificial.

false, he absorb straight up dirt and rocks in his fight with ben when he became bigger than waybig, he DOESN'T' need it to be mechanical nor artificial

We see this with Galvan B (a cybernetic moon)

again, never stated to be cybernetic in any place, that your assumption, please provide proof

, Galvan Mk. II (an artificial planet)

he only was going to fuse with the artifical core of the planet, never the actual planet itself, as seen with his fight with Ben, he can only absorb the non mechanical stuff, not fuse or be upgraded by it, only growing in mass

and Ben’s aliens (which are artificial forms created by a piece of technology).

they are biological beings, this is just wrong, they AREN'T mecanical beings, nor are they technology(save for a select few) so no

However he’s never shown affecting fully-organic things

Hummongosaur, Waybig and Feedback, yes, yes he did

, in fact we even see Malgax dust Max’s plumber gear without affecting Max at all.

him nor choosing to do so doesn't mean he can't, remember Feedback? he was able to perfectly do that with it

They all held hands and then converged into one giant, black goo-looking thing.

shapeshifting into a more sutable form, again, no idea why you think they fused

 

[Ghengiroo115]

false, he absorb straight up dirt and rocks in his fight with ben when he became bigger than waybig, he DOESN'T' need it to be mechanical nor artificial

Actually I just checked and we were both wrong about him absorbing rocks to power up. In the fight he always powers up by absorbing the parts of him that are within the planet. We see some rocks being carried up alongside it, but that’s obviously not what he’s actually intending to absorb.

they are biological beings, this is just wrong, they AREN'T mecanical beings, nor are they technology(save for a select few) so no

Hummongosaur, Waybig and Feedback, yes, yes he did

Nitpicking here, but Feedback is pretty clearly mechanical in some way. He’s also the only sapient being shown to get dusted the way Malware does with tech, so…

Anyway I didn’t say the aliens were technological, but rather artificial. They’re creations of the Omnitrix using a bit of DNA. Also when Malware begins absorbing Humungousaur he’s shown to get so tired that it knocks Ben unconscious for a moment, and idk about you but Malware has no logical reason to be able to absorb the life energy of an organic being. Given how trigger-happy he is with absorbing Mechamorphs and Omnitrix aliens but literally no-one else, I don’t see why the Omnitrix wouldn’t be involved with his ability to absorb Humungousaur and Way Big.

him nor choosing to do so doesn't mean he can't, remember Feedback? he was able to perfectly do that with it

I mean fair enough, maybe Vilgax didn’t want to instantly kill Max. They have a deep history and all so maybe he wanted to take his time or something. I’ll concede on that one.

shapeshifting into a more sutable form, again, no idea why you think they fused

How is this not some kind of fusion or merging? They held hands and then shapeshifted into a singular entity. That sounds like fusion to me.

 

[omegabronic]

Actually I just checked and we were both wrong about him absorbing rocks to power up. In the fight he always powers up by absorbing the parts of him that are within the planet. We see some rocks being carried up alongside it, but that’s obviously not what he’s actually intending to absorb.

Yeah, but he is still absorbing them nonetheless

Nitpicking here, but Feedback is pretty clearly mechanical in some way. He’s also the only sapient being shown to get dusted the way Malware does with tech, so…

eeeeehhhhh, debatable, altho the other 2 are clear enough examples

Anyway I didn’t say the aliens were technological, but rather artificial. They’re creations of the Omnitrix using a bit of DNA.

That is fused with ben't DNA, thus becoming biological forms/beings
Upgrade can uograde technology, being "artificial" or not, the point stays the same, regardless, they are 100% organical/biological beings, that is not a debatable topic

Also when Malware begins absorbing Humungousaur he’s shown to get so tired that it knocks Ben unconscious for a moment, and idk about you but Malware has no logical reason to be able to absorb the life energy of an organic being.

Never said that he can absorb life energy, absorbing mass is something we saw him doing in the Waybig fight

Given how trigger-happy he is with absorbing Mechamorphs and Omnitrix aliens but literally no-one else, I don’t see why the Omnitrix wouldn’t be involved with his ability to absorb Humungousaur and Way Big.

Malware's mindset are not proof of the aliens being non organic/machines, they are biological beings, that is a fact

I mean fair enough, maybe Vilgax didn’t want to instantly kill Max. They have a deep history and all so maybe he wanted to take his time or something. I’ll concede on that one.

Ok

How is this not some kind of fusion or merging? They held hands and then shapeshifted into a singular entity. That sounds like fusion to me.

I mean, yeah? Hence why they scale to 199th of it

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yeah, but he is still absorbing them nonetheless

That doesn’t mean they’re increasing his strength. Malware can hold organic stuff within himself without any changes to himself, such as when he kidnapped Albedo.

Never said that he can absorb life energy, absorbing mass is something we saw him doing in the Waybig fight

When Malware absorbs Humungousaur to grow bigger and stronger, it doesn’t change Humungousaur’s appearance in any way. He just gets tired. That means he’s absorbing Humungousaur’s energy somehow, which wouldn’t make sense based on how Malware’s powers work if Humungousaur is an ordinary organic being. The only difference between Humungousaur and any other organic being is the Omnitrix, so him being an Omnitrix alien is the more likely reason he can be absorbed by Malware. Again the alternative is Malware just somehow having general mana absorption (since mana is life energy), which doesn’t line up at all with his established powers.

Malware's mindset are not proof of the aliens being non organic/machines, they are biological beings, that is a fact

That wasn’t my point, I was just saying that Malware only absorbing those two types of beings and no one else sets them apart from general organic stuff. Also I never suggested the aliens were machines or anything like that, dunno where you got that from. All I said was that the alien forms are artificial, which is technically still correct regardless of the finer details given they’re forms created by the Omnitrix.

I mean, yeah? Hence why they scale to 199th of it

Yeah but if the power of a Mechamorph is to upgrade technology they merge with, and there’s 199 Mechamorphs all merging into one, would that not cause some crazy chain reaction where each Mechamorph is getting amps from 198 other Mechamorphs on top of the additive boost? Would that not make the boost from them merging together unquantifiable?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Lenyo456]

They aren't just gonna rescaling at the end?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

They aren't just gonna rescaling at the end?

I’m not sure what you mean.

 

[Lenyo456]

I’m not sure what you mean.

What I want to say is that if only the Galvanic Mechamorph maintain the L5B tier, wouldn't this end up in powerscaling (A=B=C) with the other aliens?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

What I want to say is that if only the Galvanic Mechamorph maintain the L5B tier, wouldn't this end up in powerscaling (A=B=C) with the other aliens?

Oh I see what you mean. My proposal is that Low 5-B would only be for when they merge with stuff, so their regular strength wouldn’t scale.

 

[Lenyo456]

Oh I see what you mean. My proposal is that Low 5-B would only be for when they merge with stuff, so their regular strength wouldn’t scale.

So wait, is this just for Upgrade (and it species) or does it affect other characters?

 

[omegabronic]

That doesn’t mean they’re increasing his strength.

....that's my point

Malware can hold organic stuff within himself without any changes to himself, such as when he kidnapped Albedo.

considering that he grew once he absorbed the rocks and dirt, he CAN change depending on what is being absorbed

When Malware absorbs Humungousaur to grow bigger and stronger, it doesn’t change Humungousaur’s appearance in any way.

Hummongosaur goes black and red, it does change

That means he’s absorbing Humungousaur’s energy somehow

again, his body changed

, which wouldn’t make sense based on how Malware’s powers work if Humungousaur is an ordinary organic being.

it would as it would show that he can do that

The only difference between Humungousaur and any other organic being is the Omnitrix, so him being an Omnitrix alien is the more likely reason he can be absorbed by Malware.

headcanon, all omnitrix aliens are as organical as any other individuals of their species

Again the alternative is Malware just somehow having general mana absorption (since mana is life energy), which doesn’t line up at all with his established powers.

no as he was clearly not absorbing life energy, that is pure headcanon

That wasn’t my point, I was just saying that Malware only absorbing those two types of beings and no one else sets them apart from general organic stuff.

it doesn't, these two ARE PART OF THE "general organic stuff", if you have nothing to prove that they aren't organical beings because "maware can only absorb non organical beings" then that your incredulity vs what we actually see in the show, yes he can absorb organic stuff, that much is showed, unless you have a statement or any evidence outside of "he can't because.....he can't" then you must concede

Also I never suggested the aliens were machines or anything like that, dunno where you got that from. All I said was that the alien forms are artificial, which is technically still correct regardless of the finer details given they’re forms created by the Omnitrix.

artificial in this sentence would exclusively make sense if you are saying that they are machines or non organical, anything else wouldn't make the slight of sense, btw, they are biological beings, it is nothing more than the Omnitrix fusing the DNA with Ben's, again, if you have nothing to prove this but "they MUST BE" then you must concede

Yeah but if the power of a Mechamorph is to upgrade technology they merge with, and there’s 199 Mechamorphs all merging into one, would that not cause some crazy chain reaction where each Mechamorph is getting amps from 198 other Mechamorphs on top of the additive boost?

no, again, them shapeshifting together to combine their power is already applied in the calc, unless you have proof that they are doing what you are saying that is

Would that not make the boost from them merging together unquantifiable?

no, they are just combining

 

[Ghengiroo115]

....that's my point

considering that he grew once he absorbed the rocks and dirt, he CAN change depending on what is being absorbed

OK i’m confused on what your point actually is, because you just went from saying him absorbing rocks doesn’t increase his strength to saying that it can change him.

Also he didn’t absorb any rock or dirt when he turned into his fourth form (you see rock and dirt flying around him but he doesn’t actually absorb any of it), and when he was regenerating from Way Big’s attack the rocks he absorbed were just stuck to the red and black matter that he was actually trying to absorb.

Hummongosaur goes black and red, it does change

again, his body changed

I phrased that a bit badly, but what I meant was that Humungousaur’s body shape doesn’t change as Malware begins trying to absorb him. You said that Malware powers up by absorbing mass, yet with Humungousaur we’re shown Malware get larger while Humungousaur’s body shape and his size both remain unchanged.

I was still right in my phrasing anyway as Humungousaur doesn’t turn black and red himself, he just gets covered by Malware.

it would as it would show that he can do that

no as he was clearly not absorbing life energy, that is pure headcanon

Do what exactly? Because if he wasn’t absorbing life energy then what was he doing?

it doesn't, these two ARE PART OF THE "general organic stuff",

“Two things” was referring to the Galvanic Mechamorphs and Omnitrix aliens, not Humungousaur and Way Big.

no, again, them shapeshifting together to combine their power is already applied in the calc, unless you have proof that they are doing what you are saying that is

no, they are just combining

Well the “proof” in this case would just be how their merging powers are always shown to work, but eh whatever.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

So wait, is this just for Upgrade (and it species) or does it affect other characters?

If his species are accepted to remake Galvan B using their merging abilities then it means the other characters aren’t able to scale to it, since it was done while the Mechamorphs were amped.

 

[Greenshifter]

All the technology on the planet comes from Galvanic mechamorphs (or the same material) and there is no proof of them growing exponentially stronger by merging with each other.

Thus I disagree.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Agreed, low 5-c was super shaky especially with there being a bunch of circuler just to find the one feat

 

[Greenshifter]

Also since we know Galvanic Mechamorphs can create separate beings, I could argue that they can keep merging with themselves to become stronger and stronger. Which obviously breaks the lore of Ben 10.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

All the technology on the planet comes from Galvanic mechamorphs (or the same material) and there is no proof of them growing exponentially stronger by merging with each other.

Thus I disagree.

Also since we know Galvanic Mechamorphs can create separate beings, I could argue that they can keep merging with themselves to become stronger and stronger. Which obviously breaks the lore of Ben 10.

I hadn’t considered their ability to spawn other Mechamorphs so that’s on me. While it’s the closest we see to anything resembling reproduction or something of the like, we don’t know enough about their biology to really say for sure so I’ll disregard that argument for now.

However with the other point we’re actually shown Galvanic Mechamorphs merging with parts of Galvan B even outside of them remaking it. When Azmuth retells their origins we’re shown some Galvanic Mechamorphs merging with a small structure in order to upgrade it into the tower that the Helix is held in. (About 1:11 in, idk how to link certain times for posts here)