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Norse's land cosmology - God of War

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Assume the size comparison statement is needed, do we need it implicitly or explicitly ? indirectly or directly ?

Because in my mind having explicit size statement requires rigor mathematical proof or expression statement in lore or something like that
 
The whole deal with the Nine Realms sitting on Yggdrasil's branches doesn't really mean much. I think I already explained that, when it comes to infinite structures, the part isn't necessarily smaller than the whole. The stuff that KLOL's quoted from me already lays out as much. You'd need something indicating that Yggdrasil's scope is infinitely greater than the scope of the realms themselves, and "They're a part of it/hanging on it" doesn't cut it.

And, for the matter, this statement isn't indicative of this. "Transcending time, transcending space" can fairly easily refer to how Yggdrasil isn't bound to any particular era or location, but stretches throughout all of them instead. The cycle that Yggdrasil presides over being greater than Surtr's incineration at the end of Ragnarok is also not something I'd take literally, or at least not to the extent it means it infinitely transcends the event, given that Ratatoskr says that Surtr blowing shit up shook the entire tree.

Planck69 said:
The "size comparison statement" stuff is honestly getting old. 70% of Tier 1 doesn't have it or seem to be bothered by the lack thereof. Whether Ultima is still applying that standard to the rest of the site and God of War is what reminded him or something, I dunno. But we should really stop parroting it like it's gospel.
Click to expand...
Do you have any specific examples of that in mind? If we got any similar cases to this, then my stance on them would be similar. Every upgrade I've approved based on "Something infinite is part of another thing" had the latter thing have some description which let us infer that, no, it wasn't a situation where the part may actually be equal in size to the whole.

Planck69 said:
I do agree with Yggdrasil having a higher form of time than that of the Nine Realms, considering this time-flow is what the cycle of creation and destruction of the Nine Realms follow, not to mention the Realms are their own space-times yet Ymir himself was still bound by time.
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This one's new. I haven't seen much that suggests the cycle of creation is its own higher timeline, or anything of that sort. Do you have the relevant stuff on hand? (Or can you like, point me to it, if it has already been said)
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And, for the matter, this statement isn't indicative of this. "Transcending time, transcending space" can fairly easily refer to how Yggdrasil isn't bound to any particular era or location, but stretches throughout all of them instead.
Click to expand...
I believe it's accepted as a literal transcendence. It's the reason for Yggdrasil's BDE type 2 as well as it's HDE on it's page.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And, for the matter, this statement isn't indicative of this. "Transcending time, transcending space" can fairly easily refer to how Yggdrasil isn't bound to any particular era or location, but stretches throughout all of them instead. The cycle that Yggdrasil presides over being greater than Surtr's incineration at the end of Ragnarok is also not something I'd take literally, or at least not to the extent it means it infinitely transcends the event, given that Ratatoskr says that Surtr blowing shit up shook the entire tree.
Click to expand...
I took that to be more so just Sutr's power scaling to such a level. Seeing as the Realms would've fallen bar Asgard without his intervention and Ymir himself, whose body ended up making up multiple separate space-times was bound by it and existed "when time was young/at the beginning of time".

I can see why you'd have your stance though.
Ultima_Reality said:
Do you have any specific examples of that in mind? If we got any similar cases to this, then my stance on them would be similar. Every upgrade I've approved based on "Something infinite is part of another thing" had the latter thing have some description which let us infer that, no, it wasn't a situation where the part may actually be equal in size to the whole.
Click to expand...
Of like, "size comparison" stuff? I mentioned a few verses I'm aware of above. Mostly, Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta. Granted, it's not an issue that I have with them specifically and more so the assumption that every Low 1-C structure must have such statements or follow such a trend.
Ultima_Reality said:
This one's new. I haven't seen much that suggests the cycle of creation is its own higher timeline, or anything of that sort. Do you have the relevant stuff on hand? (Or can you like, point me to it, if it has already been said)
Click to expand...
The God of War Explanation Page's Yggdrasil and Nine Realms section cover all relevant material to this. It's not too much information though, so don't expect a Twin Peaks bible.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And, for the matter, this statement isn't indicative of this. "Transcending time, transcending space" can fairly easily refer to how Yggdrasil isn't bound to any particular era or location, but stretches throughout all of them instead. The cycle that Yggdrasil presides over being greater than Surtr's incineration at the end of Ragnarok is also not something I'd take literally, or at least not to the extent it means it infinitely transcends the event, given that Ratatoskr says that Surtr blowing shit up shook the entire tree.
Click to expand...
the thing is, word "transcending time" could refer to Yggdrasil omnipresence. But "Transcending Space" could refer to qualitative superiority. This is why Freya separate those words. To make it more clear
 
Planck69 said:
Of like, "size comparison" stuff? I mentioned a few verses I'm aware of above. Mostly, Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta. Granted, it's not an issue that I have with them specifically and more so the assumption that every Low 1-C structure must have such statements or follow such a trend.
Click to expand...
I think he meant verses that are Low 1-C without size comparison statements. Both Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta do have those statements.

By the way, I am neutral for the CRT in itself, but I think both Ultima and DT's arguments make sense.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
This one's new. I haven't seen much that suggests the cycle of creation is its own higher timeline, or anything of that sort. Do you have the relevant stuff on hand? (Or can you like, point me to it, if it has already been said)
Click to expand...
I guess this was explained in the norse cosmology page.

Also a quick thing, wouldn't the difference between branches and realms be infinity? given the branches that completely encompass the finite 4-D realms, stretching to infinity and completely transcends them?

For the differences between the finite and the infinite structures are always infinite, and the branches extending to infinity and completely transcends them are little part of Yggdrasil. I mean "branches must be infinitely bigger than realms." We already have this. (I don't know if I missed something.)

We don't have a direct comparison statement, but we can say from this that the branches are "infinitely bigger than realms", comletely transcends realms and are a little part of Yggdrasil.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
The whole deal with the Nine Realms sitting on Yggdrasil's branches doesn't really mean much. I think I already explained that, when it comes to infinite structures, the part isn't necessarily smaller than the whole. The stuff that KLOL's quoted from me already lays out as much. You'd need something indicating that Yggdrasil's scope is infinitely greater than the scope of the realms themselves, and "They're a part of it/hanging on it" doesn't cut it.

And, for the matter, this statement isn't indicative of this. "Transcending time, transcending space" can fairly easily refer to how Yggdrasil isn't bound to any particular era or location, but stretches throughout all of them instead. The cycle that Yggdrasil presides over being greater than Surtr's incineration at the end of Ragnarok is also not something I'd take literally, or at least not to the extent it means it infinitely transcends the event, given that Ratatoskr says that Surtr blowing shit up shook the entire tree.


Do you have any specific examples of that in mind? If we got any similar cases to this, then my stance on them would be similar. Every upgrade I've approved based on "Something infinite is part of another thing" had the latter thing have some description which let us infer that, no, it wasn't a situation where the part may actually be equal in size to the whole.


This one's new. I haven't seen much that suggests the cycle of creation is its own higher timeline, or anything of that sort. Do you have the relevant stuff on hand? (Or can you like, point me to it, if it has already been said)
Click to expand...
DT and ultima seem to disagree with op and don't forget to vote for them.
 
Lewis said:
DT and ultima seem to disagree with op and don't forget to vote for them.
Click to expand...
So, we've made arguments, because Ultima thinks we're just making infinitely bigger branches out of branches that transcend space and time, but that's not the case, there are a few other things added to the OP

And I think DT might think we're trying Tier 1 because it's just branches separating realms and being infinite. But as I said, there's more to it than that.
 
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Ultima has announced that it clearly agrees with the KLOL506's comments and I don't think he has anything to say.
because he's stuck working on cosmology marvel which is the biggest verse. That's why he doesn't have time to talk to this thread.
Georredannea15 said:
So, we've made arguments, because Ultima thinks we're just making infinitely bigger branches out of branches that transcend space and time, but that's not the case, there are a few other things added to the OP
Click to expand...
 
Lewis said:
Ultima has announced that it clearly agrees with the KLOL506's comments and I don't think he has anything to say.
because he's stuck working on cosmology marvel which is the biggest verse. That's why he doesn't have time to talk to this thread.
Click to expand...
I think Ultima has enough authority to say that for himself instead of you doing it for him.
 
Lewis said:
Ultima has announced that it clearly agrees with the KLOL506's comments and I don't think he has anything to say.
because he's stuck working on cosmology marvel which is the biggest verse. That's why he doesn't have time to talk to this thread.
Click to expand...
My point is that the cosmology page and the OP should be read more carefully and this revision not judged by a single statement. That's all I ask.

Because it is not healthy to take a single statement and ignore the other statements.

And like I said, if we're not going to argue and talk here, where are we going to talk? The Tier 1 page matches the wording very well. The OP and his cosmology page are good examples of this. That's all I want, I hope it's not misunderstood.
 
Hi, asked to comment, I figured I could take a crack at this. This comment is particularly for Ultima, since we’ve done this tango on another series before.

To start off, the Nine Realms are accepted space-times. We know this to be true, as from Ymir’s mural, the “sky” was born from his head. Don’t interpret the word “sky” as literal, as it clearly refers to more than just that, such as the stars being considered real when looking at outer space, and more importantly when Odin killed Ymir, he formed the other realms from his body. Each Realm operates on a separate time axis, as cited by Mimir, that time flows differently. Once more, in Ragnarok, Kratos confronts Atreus in Migard, and claims Atreus was gone for “two days” when in Jotunheim, despite hours minimum passing in there. I’m aware that you might say “time flowing differently doesn’t imply a different time axis”, but this isn’t the case, as the realms need an item called a Bifrost, which allows traversal, meaning that conventional walking isn’t enough. This is again proven when Odin seals the realms apart, and you have to use Yggdrasil seeds instead.

With this established, the 9 Realms are universal-sized bodies operating on their own time axes. I’m sure you know that space-times are infinitely bigger than their 3-D counterparts.

Onto the Yggdrasil, the more important bits, visually, the realms are sitting atop the branches and roots of the Yggdrasil. In lore, this is reiterated, when Freya asserts all realms exist in the same physical space, but that its roots reach out to all the realms, and the actual tree cuts between the planes. The latter portion is important, because where the bulk of the Tree is in the Realm between Realms. The literal space between all Realms, and center of the spiritual cosmos. Referring to a comment you made prior:

For two line segments to be parallel, you'd have to set it so they wouldn't touch regardless of how far they are extended, which wouldn't be possible if they stood side-by-side in 1-D space as in here, meaning you would need them to be displaced over a plane. Same thing happens with planes: For them to be parallel, they shouldn't ever be able to meet, so you'd need them to be displaced over 3-D space. Generalizing that to the 4-D case, spacetimes would obviously have to be displaced over a 5-D region (This works by definition, too: If they're different spacetime continuums then obviously they can't share the same space, in the way 3-D objects exist around us for instance)
Click to expand...

In this case, attempting to match your logic here, the 4-D space (Nine Realms), are displaced across the 5-D plane (Realm between Realms), and therefore the Yggdrasil, which stretches out infinitely. I hope this recontextulizes the arguments in a new light, had to do a lot of reading for this, lol.
 
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@Ultima_Reality

To add on to Milly's comment, all of the nine realms exist within the same "physical space", that being the World Tree, acting as separate planes of existence to each other, despite also being separated on the branches of the Yggdrasil. One of the main developers, Matt Sophos, further clarifies the nature of the realms on his interview with Game Informer, where he repeats that all of the realms are separate dimensions existing within the same physical space and further explains that if you went to Egypt or a country in Alfheim, and you crossed over a portal to another realm from that point, such as Niflheim, you’d be geographically on Niflheim’s version of Egypt.

So, they're 4-dimensional space-times that are parallel in that they never actually meet regardless of any movement one makes in any one of their directions with their own time axes (On top of what Milly already explained, Realm Shifts distort both space and time and do this on the scale of the whole realm but don't affect any other. Even the high Vanir Gods stopping and messing with time in their own realm didn't inundate the rest of the inhabitants of the World Tree). Yet, they're all displaced across a higher-order space (the Realm Between Realms) and the Yggdrasil treats it as the main void it inhabits and has its branches stretch infinitely throughout it.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Hi, asked to comment, I figured I could take a crack at this. This comment is particularly for Ultima, since we’ve done this tango on another series before.

To start off, the Nine Realms are accepted space-times. We know this to be true, as from Ymir’s mural, the “sky” was born from his head. Don’t interpret the word “sky” as literal, as it clearly refers to more than just that, such as the stars being considered real when looking at outer space, and more importantly when Odin killed Ymir, he formed the other realms from his body. Each Realm operates on a separate time axis, as cited by Mimir, that time flows differently. Once more, in Ragnarok, Kratos confronts Atreus in Migard, and claims Atreus was gone for “two days” when in Jotunheim, despite hours minimum passing in there. I’m aware that you might say “time flowing differently doesn’t imply a different time axis”, but this isn’t the case, as the realms need an item called a Bifrost, which allows traversal, meaning that conventional walking isn’t enough. This is again proven when Odin seals the realms apart, and you have to use Yggdrasil seeds instead.

With this established, the 9 Realms are universal-sized bodies operating on their own time axes. I’m sure you know that space-times are infinitely bigger than their 3-D counterparts.

Onto the Yggdrasil, the more important bits, visually, the realms are sitting atop the branches and roots of the Yggdrasil. In lore, this is reiterated, when Freya asserts all realms exist in the same physical space, but that its roots reach out to all the realms, and the actual tree cuts between the planes. The latter portion is important, because where the bulk of the Tree is in the Realm between Realms. The literal space between all Realms, and center of the spiritual cosmos. Referring to a comment you made prior:



In this case, attempting to match your logic here, the 4-D space (Nine Realms), are displaced across the 5-D plane (Realm between Realms), and therefore the Yggdrasil, which stretches out infinitely. I hope this recontextulizes the arguments in a new light, had to do a lot of reading for this, lol.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm... Interesting, This should work.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Being infinite compared to other 4D constructs (low 2-C) can just make you an infinite 4D structure (2-A)
The transcend "their space and time" part I do not understand, it largely depends on the context it was made

Also even if the structures are also infinite 4D, there are numbers of ways one infinity can be larger or multiple infinities being a subset of one larger infinity that, that does not necessarily mean uncountable infinite.
Click to expand...
This is that vsbattle wiki bull that makes me stay away from tier 1/higher d nonsense. It's too confusing
 
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PrinceofPein said:
I have to agree that, the OP should have waited a bit and got all the supporters along

Being infinite compared to other 4D constructs (low 2-C) can just make you an infinite 4D structure (2-A)
The transcend "their space and time" part I do not understand, it largely depends on the context it was made

Also even if the structures are also infinite 4D, there are numbers of ways one infinity can be larger or multiple infinities being a subset of one larger infinity that, that does not necessarily mean uncountable infinite.
Click to expand...
Ahh... I hadn't seen that. Btw, the branches, strands and roots you call 2-A are Yggdrasil's
are the small parts and contains them. But that doesn't seem very important. An interesting argument has been presented. I'm waiting for this.
 
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