Norse's land cosmology - God of War

[KLOL506]

That, and the fact that Ymir was explicitly born "when time was young," tells me that the Realms just share one dimension of time.

They... don't. Vanir Time Fuckery that affects no other realm. Mimir stating the Realms to have different flows of time in Helheim (GoW2018's ending with the trip to Jotunheim and Atreus's second Jotunheim journey in GoW Ragnarok hammering it down hard). Realm Shift.

 

[Georredannea15]

They... don't. Vanir Time Fuckery. Mimir stating the Realms to have different flows of time (GoW2018's ending and Atreus's Jotunheim journey in GoW Ragnarok hammering it down). Realm Shift.

Not only that. In Hellheim, Mimir explicitly states that time flows differently in each realm.

 

[KLOL506]

Not only that. In Hellheim, Mimir explicitly states that time flows differently in each realm.

Yes, but it falls under the "Different flows of time" aspect so I didn't bother including it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality Can I ask what exactly is your issue with the tier 2 realms? Because I'm a bit lost on what's the standard when other verses I've seen have tier 2 for the same if not less clear points than GoW.

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality Can I ask what exactly is your issue with the tier 2 realms? Because I'm a bit lost on what's the standard when other verses I've seen have tier 2 for the same if not less clear points than GoW.

He stated the following:

Now, onto said other stuff: You seem to try and justify the idea that the Nine Realms having uneven flows of time makes them separate spacetime continuums with information that says you can't traverse them through conventional methods of transport, but currently our standards on this are:

The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the same timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.

So, if worlds being different spaces isn't evidence of them being alternate spacetimes, and neither is them having different flows of time, I don't see how those two in conjunction would be, either.

That, and the fact that Ymir was explicitly born "when time was young," tells me that the Realms just share one dimension of time. I think assuming that this just so happens to refer to some higher temporal dimension is pretty absurd leap without more evidence to substantiate it, especially in the presence of other interpretations that are just as logical.

The "they're alternate dimensions" thing doesn't mean much. Quoting our standards again:

Being "Different Worlds, Realms, or Dimensions" requires more elaborate context and even "Dreams, Imaginations and Ideas becoming reality" is not enough to say the "Worlds" are entire universes. "Becoming Reality" often simply refers more to "Becoming a piece of reality" as opposed to each and every Dream becoming an "Entire Reality".

The stuff about spacetime fuckery not affecting the other realms is certainly interesting, though. I'd like to see what to see what other people have to say about it, but it seems vaguely convincing to me at least. Given that:

By default, the range of time manipulation is considered universal unless explicitly demonstrated or specified otherwise. In the case of time manipulation through gravity manipulation, it will be presumed to have a localized range instead of a universal one unless explicitly stated or demonstrated. Similarly, when utilizing pocket dimensions for time manipulation, it will not be presumed to possess a universal range unless explicitly indicated or shown.

In case of time stop sub-ability, unless users are shown or stated to have limits in terms of range, or that their ranges extend to areas beyond the universe, then they are assumed to be universal or higher by the virtue of affecting the very flow of time itself, thus all of time in the universe.

Though I'll admit the Time Manipulation page (Where those paragraphs come from) is a bit ambiguous, since it doesn't specify if by "flow of time" it means "the temporal dimension," or something like that.

 

[Planck69]

My ******* god, am I tired of the whimsical standards regarding Tier 2/1 on this site. Can someone actually tell me what Tier 2 standard is not met by God of War here? At all?

Because all I've seen so far is taking a mural translation over the entirety of the remaining proof of temporal separation, on top of the fact that verses with significantly vaguer proof just get grandfathered into the tier with no issue.

• Vanir Time Magic doesn't affect other realms despite stopping time across an entire dimension.
• Realm Shifts affect individual Realms only.
• Time flows are different for reasons that have nothing to do with "gravitational pull".
• All Realms are separated across a higher order space. The spatial separation is self-evident so I won't hark on it.
• The realm of Midgard is essentially our universe from a Norse perspective and the others are mirror planes of existence to it.

Honestly, I'm whatever on the Low 1-C argument. If Ultima gives a decent counter to the proposal then it's fine. But man, can we be even with standards at this point? If the mural isn't enough proof of time across the Yggdrasil encompassing the space-time continuums of the Realms then just take it as an inconsistency and move on.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also Light of Alfheim seperating realms, Light being higher dimensional energy with time fuckery.

 

[KLOL506]

The Mural Translation isn't even relevant here because that wasn't even used as a selling point for separate space-times, it's for something else entirely. The main selling point for separate space-times was Spatial Separation, Vanir Fuckery, Mimir's statement of "different flows of time" also involving the Jotunheim sequences, and Realm Shift.

 

[Planck69]

@Ultima_Reality

So, if I'm understanding your posts correctly, it's reasonable for the Realm Between Realms to be a higher-dimensional space i.e. Low 1-C but not necessarily the Yggdrasil for its branches stretching across it.

What proof would be needed in that case? And for powers that permeate the Realm Between Realms, such as The Light of Alfheim, would they be tiered relative to it or not? The latter is also stated to "transcending everything that exists within the Realms" but that's minor support at best.

 

[Fixxed]

The stuff about Yggdrasil stretching across the Realm between Realms is something that others have already commented upon here. Yggdrasil can be a 4-D structure that curves through 5-D space without necessarily taking up any volume in it. A sphere (As in, the surface of a ball) is a 2-dimensional object that curves through 3-D space, for instance, and a circle (As in the perimeter of a disk) likewise is a 1-dimensional object that curves through 2-D space.

Sorry but isnt the realms that are 4D structured that "curved" in infinity branch of yggdrasil??
With your logic isnt that will make yggdrasil a 5D structure??

 

[Lilixa]

Well, from topological view, i think ultima said Yggdrassil is larger 4-D structures compared to the rest of 4D realms. It should be noted that the relativeness of 4-D size can only be judged on 5-D space visually.

 

[Lilixa]

Man, it's been a while. Not too sure if the relevant parties are interested anymore, but, I'll shoot:


The stuff about Yggdrasil stretching across the Realm between Realms is something that others have already commented upon here. Yggdrasil can be a 4-D structure that curves through 5-D space without necessarily taking up any volume in it. A sphere (As in, the surface of a ball) is a 2-dimensional object that curves through 3-D space, for instance, and a circle (As in the perimeter of a disk) likewise is a 1-dimensional object that curves through 2-D space.

I agree that from topology standpoint curves can have infinite value, just like circle having infinite amount of edges or like NURBS curves

But the problem here, Yggdrasil doesn't have curves topology.

 

[Georredannea15]

@Ultima_Reality

So, if I'm understanding your posts correctly, it's reasonable for the Realm Between Realms to be a higher-dimensional space i.e. Low 1-C but not necessarily the Yggdrasil for its branches stretching across it.

What proof would be needed in that case? And for powers that permeate the Realm Between Realms, such as The Light of Alfheim, would they be tiered relative to it or not? The latter is also stated to "transcending everything that exists within the Realms" but that's minor support at best.

I have no idea why it is still not Low 1-C, Yggdrasil is at the centre of the 5-D spiritual cosmos and its branches extend into infinity, covering the spiritual cosmos.

If your branches extend to infinity, and you have an existence big enough to cover a 5-dimensional space, this should make that structure 5-dimensional. And of course, not to mention other statements.

But if this is still rejected with tier 2/1, I have a feeling that there is a bad intention here and nothing good will happen.

 

[Georredannea15]

Sorry but isnt the realms that are 4D structured that "curved" in infinity branch of yggdrasil??
With your logic isnt that will make yggdrasil a 5D structure??

Yes, it should.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Since this is still not over.

I agree with 2A for Yggdrasil's branches. But I don't understand that Yggdrasil itself is superior to branches.I disagree with Low 1C Yggdrasil if I'm not missing something important. Also, Ultima's thoughts seem sense.(About Low 1C Yggdrasil)

 

[Georredannea15]

Since this is still not over.

I agree with 2A for Yggdrasil's branches. But I don't understand that Yggdrasil itself is superior to branches.I disagree with Low 1C Yggdrasil if I'm not missing something important. Also, Ultima's thoughts seem sense.(About Low 1C Yggdrasil)

The problem is that Yggdrasil contains all of these branches and is a larger structure encompassing them. According to the wiki, Low 1-C is the larger structure that encompasses and is larger than 2-A.

Because Yggdrasil covers these branches(2-A branches) and is bigger than them.

 

[CodeCCLL]

The problem is that Yggdrasil contains all of these branches and is a larger structure encompassing them. According to the wiki, Low 1-C is the larger structure that encompasses and is larger than 2-A.

Because Yggdrasil covers these branches(2-A branches) and is bigger than them.

Actually, at this point, God Of War seems to be different from Norse Mythology.

Yggdrasil : Asgard (includes Valhalla, Álfheim, and Vanaheim) rest on the branches of Yggdrasil. The trunk of the tree pierces the earth's axis through the center of Miðgarðr. (It's also where Jötunheimr is located and below the land where the world of Niðavellir is located - in Svartálfheim.) Although it is only the first world's business to host the source of Yggdrasill, the tree's three roots extend to Helheim, Niflheim and Muspelheim.

According to Norse Mythology, Midgard are located around Yggdrasil's body. Wouldn't it be proof to Mythology that Midgard was located around Yggdrasil's body that Yggdrasil was not a higher dimensional structure than realms like Midgard ? Was this ever mentioned in God of War?

 

[Georredannea15]

Actually, at this point, God Of War seems to be different from Norse Mythology.

Yggdrasil : Asgard (includes Valhalla, Álfheim, and Vanaheim) rest on the branches of Yggdrasil. The trunk of the tree pierces the earth's axis through the center of Miðgarðr. (It's also where Jötunheimr is located and below the land where the world of Niðavellir is located - in Svartálfheim.) Although it is only the first world's business to host the source of Yggdrasill, the tree's three roots extend to Helheim, Niflheim and Muspelheim.

According to Norse Mythology, Midgard are located around Yggdrasil's body. Wouldn't it be proof to Mythology that Midgard was located around Yggdrasil's body that Yggdrasil was not a higher dimensional structure than realms like Midgard ? Was this ever mentioned in God of War?

No, That is to say, to be so large within yourself as to encompass the 4-D realms would not by itself make you higher dimensional than realms, at least this structure would have to completely transcend 4-D realms and be infinitely larger than them.

Of course, if we turn to GoW, in addition to these two statements, there is a spiritual cosmos that is higher dimensional than the realms, and a Tree of Life whose branches extend here infinity and encompass this place with its existence. When these 4 main arguments are supported by some things in the game, I think it will clearly be Low 1-C.

But what you said at the beginning is not enough to be of a higher dimension than the realms.

 

[CodeCCLL]

No, That is to say, to be so large within yourself as to encompass the 4-D realms would not by itself make you higher dimensional than realms, at least this structure would have to completely transcend 4-D realms and be infinitely larger than them.

I never said this. I mean, according to Norse Mythology, Yggdrasil's body literally passes through the middle of Midgard. So Yggdrasil is only 4D like Midgard and the other Realms.

 

[Georredannea15]

I never said this. I mean, according to Norse Mythology, Yggdrasil's body literally passes through the middle of Midgard. So Yggdrasil is only 4D like Midgard and the other Realms.

I have no idea about the actual mythology, but that is not the case in GoW.

 

[KLOL506]

Stick to the actual cards guys, don't bring IRL mythology into this.

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[Planck69]

Actually, at this point, God Of War seems to be different from Norse Mythology.

Yggdrasil : Asgard (includes Valhalla, Álfheim, and Vanaheim) rest on the branches of Yggdrasil. The trunk of the tree pierces the earth's axis through the center of Miðgarðr. (It's also where Jötunheimr is located and below the land where the world of Niðavellir is located - in Svartálfheim.) Although it is only the first world's business to host the source of Yggdrasill, the tree's three roots extend to Helheim, Niflheim and Muspelheim.

According to Norse Mythology, Midgard are located around Yggdrasil's body. Wouldn't it be proof to Mythology that Midgard was located around Yggdrasil's body that Yggdrasil was not a higher dimensional structure than realms like Midgard ? Was this ever mentioned in God of War?

We don't use IRL mythology for the verse so this entire point is moot.

Midgard is just a dimension on the tree. That's it. The tree itself encompasses all of creation.

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[Fixxed]

Well if this thread still going for long long time

I think we can take the realm between realms as 5D then

 

[KLOL506]

Couldn't give a shit about what the **** the Ream Between Realms is designated as, just that nobody ******* scales to it.

 

[Planck69]

Couldn't give a shit about what the **** the Ream Between Realms is designated as, just that nobody ******* scales to it.

The Light permeates it though, so maybe that'd scale? Depends on the response from Ultima and the others regarding my questions.

 

[KLOL506]

The Light permeates it though, so maybe that'd scale?

Does it actually do anything to the void to significantly affect it tho? Like, all it could be is just range.

 

[Planck69]

Does it actually do anything to the void to significantly affect it tho? Like, all it could be is just range.

Hmmm, fair point. There's the fact that it transcends everything within the Nine Realms.

Regardless, best to sort that out first. Worst comes to to worst, I can remake the thread with current arguments.

 

[KLOL506]

My suffering seems to have no stop I see.

 

[Georredannea15]

The Light permeates it though, so maybe that'd scale? Depends on the response from Ultima and the others regarding my questions.

So how can light and primordial runic magic be able to resist the power that resides in the realm between realms? So the realm between realms(cosmic power or cosmic space...) cannot effect primordial forces and beings, and Yggdrasil is one of them, and its branches completely encompass the this 5-D cosmos.

So if you're big enough to contain a 5-D space, your being must be 5-D too.

Not to mention, of course, that these higher times and branches have completely transcended the realms(space-time) and are infinitely greater than them.

 

[Fixxed]

Couldn't give a shit about what the **** the Ream Between Realms is designated as, just that nobody ******* scales to it.

Kratos and athena

 

[Planck69]

@Fixxed

Is it cool if I make another thread with the new arguments? Since we've veered away from the OP too much?

 

[Fixxed]

@Fixxed

Is it cool if I make another thread with the new arguments? Since we've veered away from the OP too much?

Yeah this thread is near death

You can close this and make a new one

 

[Planck69]

Alright then. I'll close this and make a new one some time this week.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

My suffering seems to have no stop I see.

me with DB cosmology threads fr fr