Norse's land cosmology - God of War

[Planck69]

Guys, we're all waiting for the response so let's try to not make this hit 4 pages.

 

[Georredannea15]

Patience is a virtue.

Anyways, it seems Ultima had his issues with Low 1-C, what about 2-A?

Responses were given against what Ultima had said, and interesting arguments were then presented. We will wait patiently.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[TheGod]

bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone reiterate the qualitative difference between the strands of the World Tree (Tier 2), the World Tree as a whole, and the hypothetical Ream that contains the full-sized World Tree?

 

[ShionAH]

Bump.

How did a simple bunp get 4 likes

 

[Ped2018]

How did a simple bunp get 4 likes

6 likes now bitch

 

[ShionAH]

6 likes now bitch

7 likes now bitch

 

[Georredannea15]

Can someone reiterate the qualitative difference between the strands of the World Tree (Tier 2), the World Tree as a whole, and the hypothetical Ream that contains the full-sized World Tree?

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, but the 4-D realms are contained within the branches that are small pieces of Yggdrasil, the branches completely transcend the realms and are infinitely larger than them.

Apart from that, the realms themselves have a endless cycle of time, creation and destruction, which is constrained within the higher branches of Yggdrasil and Yggdrasil gives life this cycle. (I guess these were better explained on the cosmology blog)

Hi, asked to comment, I figured I could take a crack at this. This comment is particularly for Ultima, since we’ve done this tango on another series before.

To start off, the Nine Realms are accepted space-times. We know this to be true, as from Ymir’s mural, the “sky” was born from his head. Don’t interpret the word “sky” as literal, as it clearly refers to more than just that, such as the stars being considered real when looking at outer space, and more importantly when Odin killed Ymir, he formed the other realms from his body. Each Realm operates on a separate time axis, as cited by Mimir, that time flows differently. Once more, in Ragnarok, Kratos confronts Atreus in Migard, and claims Atreus was gone for “two days” when in Jotunheim, despite hours minimum passing in there. I’m aware that you might say “time flowing differently doesn’t imply a different time axis”, but this isn’t the case, as the realms need an item called a Bifrost, which allows traversal, meaning that conventional walking isn’t enough. This is again proven when Odin seals the realms apart, and you have to use Yggdrasil seeds instead.

With this established, the 9 Realms are universal-sized bodies operating on their own time axes. I’m sure you know that space-times are infinitely bigger than their 3-D counterparts.

Onto the Yggdrasil, the more important bits, visually, the realms are sitting atop the branches and roots of the Yggdrasil. In lore, this is reiterated, when Freya asserts all realms exist in the same physical space, but that its roots reach out to all the realms, and the actual tree cuts between the planes. The latter portion is important, because where the bulk of the Tree is in the Realm between Realms. The literal space between all Realms, and center of the spiritual cosmos. Referring to a comment you made prior:

For two line segments to be parallel, you'd have to set it so they wouldn't touch regardless of how far they are extended, which wouldn't be possible if they stood side-by-side in 1-D space as in here, meaning you would need them to be displaced over a plane. Same thing happens with planes: For them to be parallel, they shouldn't ever be able to meet, so you'd need them to be displaced over 3-D space. Generalizing that to the 4-D case, spacetimes would obviously have to be displaced over a 5-D region (This works by definition, too: If they're different spacetime continuums then obviously they can't share the same space, in the way 3-D objects exist around us for instance)

In this case, attempting to match your logic here, the 4-D space (Nine Realms), are displaced across the 5-D plane (Realm between Realms), and therefore the Yggdrasil, which stretches out infinitely. I hope this recontextulizes the arguments in a new light, had to do a lot of reading for this, lol.

I also wanted to quote this other argument as well. It's up to you to decide.

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, but the 4-D realms are contained within the branches that are small pieces of Yggdrasil, the branches completely transcend the realms and are infinitely larger than them.

Apart from that, the realms themselves have a endless cycle of time, creation and destruction, which is constrained within the higher branches of Yggdrasil and Yggdrasil gives life this cycle. (I guess these were better explained on the cosmology blog)

I also wanted to quote this other argument as well. It's up to you to decide.

To clarify, you mean to say that an entire timeline is an infinitesimal speck to the World Tree? It's not a strand that goes from root to branch of the World Tree?

 

[Georredannea15]

To clarify, you mean to say that an entire timeline is an infinitesimal speck to the World Tree? It's not a strand that goes from root to branch of the World Tree?

If we interpret it more accurately; Even roots, branches, and strands which are little bits of Yggdrasil, are structures that completely encompass and contain the 4-D realms, completely transcends them, and are infinitely larger/bigger than them.

And any effects that occur in the realms do not affect Yggdrasil, even a single drop of dew flowing from its branches is enough to give life to all of creation and cycle. It would be much healthier to interpret it this way.

And as I mentioned before, there is an endless cycle of time, life and destruction within the realms and they are all surrounded by Yggdrasil and it gives life to all things. The cosmology page explains it in more detail and nicely, but to summarize it simply, that's the thing.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reiterate, the World Tree is composed of timelines, and these timelines exist parallel to each other?

 

[Georredannea15]

To reiterate, the World Tree is composed of timelines, and these timelines exist parallel to each other?

The cosmology page explains it better. However, this endless cycle, the creation ends, and another creation starts again, and this continues endlessly. Yggdrasil, on the other hand, completely encompasses them, gives life, completely transcends them(spacetime and all of creation), and is infinitely larger than them(just branches, Yggdrasil is much more than this.)

Btw the World tree is not composed of timelines and endless cycles. The Yggdrasil completely transcends them, and gives life to this endless cycle and returns to it in the cycle.

 

[Planck69]

Can someone reiterate the qualitative difference between the strands of the World Tree (Tier 2), the World Tree as a whole, and the hypothetical Ream that contains the full-sized World Tree?

The Nine Realms are parallel realities that are full 4-dimensional space-time continuums. They exist such that they can never actually intersect on the branches of the World Tree, regardless of what direction one moves in and as such, would have to be suspended in a higher-dimensional plane for that to occur. This higher-dimensional realm is the Realm Between Realms and the Yggdrasil is the core of this void, with branches that extend to infinity throughout it.

Hi, asked to comment, I figured I could take a crack at this. This comment is particularly for Ultima, since we’ve done this tango on another series before.

To start off, the Nine Realms are accepted space-times. We know this to be true, as from Ymir’s mural, the “sky” was born from his head. Don’t interpret the word “sky” as literal, as it clearly refers to more than just that, such as the stars being considered real when looking at outer space, and more importantly when Odin killed Ymir, he formed the other realms from his body. Each Realm operates on a separate time axis, as cited by Mimir, that time flows differently. Once more, in Ragnarok, Kratos confronts Atreus in Migard, and claims Atreus was gone for “two days” when in Jotunheim, despite hours minimum passing in there. I’m aware that you might say “time flowing differently doesn’t imply a different time axis”, but this isn’t the case, as the realms need an item called a Bifrost, which allows traversal, meaning that conventional walking isn’t enough. This is again proven when Odin seals the realms apart, and you have to use Yggdrasil seeds instead.

With this established, the 9 Realms are universal-sized bodies operating on their own time axes. I’m sure you know that space-times are infinitely bigger than their 3-D counterparts.

Onto the Yggdrasil, the more important bits, visually, the realms are sitting atop the branches and roots of the Yggdrasil. In lore, this is reiterated, when Freya asserts all realms exist in the same physical space, but that its roots reach out to all the realms, and the actual tree cuts between the planes. The latter portion is important, because where the bulk of the Tree is in the Realm between Realms. The literal space between all Realms, and center of the spiritual cosmos. Referring to a comment you made prior:



In this case, attempting to match your logic here, the 4-D space (Nine Realms), are displaced across the 5-D plane (Realm between Realms), and therefore the Yggdrasil, which stretches out infinitely. I hope this recontextulizes the arguments in a new light, had to do a lot of reading for this, lol.

@Ultima_Reality

To add on to Milly's comment, all of the nine realms exist within the same "physical space", that being the World Tree, acting as separate planes of existence to each other, despite also being separated on the branches of the Yggdrasil. One of the main developers, Matt Sophos, further clarifies the nature of the realms on his interview with Game Informer, where he repeats that all of the realms are separate dimensions existing within the same physical space and further explains that if you went to Egypt or a country in Alfheim, and you crossed over a portal to another realm from that point, such as Niflheim, you’d be geographically on Niflheim’s version of Egypt.

So, they're 4-dimensional space-times that are parallel in that they never actually meet regardless of any movement one makes in any one of their directions with their own time axes (On top of what Milly already explained, Realm Shifts distort both space and time and do this on the scale of the whole realm but don't affect any other. Even the high Vanir Gods stopping and messing with time in their own realm didn't inundate the rest of the inhabitants of the World Tree). Yet, they're all displaced across a higher-order space (the Realm Between Realms) and the Yggdrasil treats it as the main void it inhabits and has its branches stretch infinitely throughout it.

These two comments elaborate as much.

 

[Firestorm808]

The Nine Realms are parallel realities that are full 4-dimensional space-time continuums. They exist such that they can never actually intersect on the branches of the World Tree, regardless of what direction one moves in and as such, would have to be suspended in a higher-dimensional plane for that to occur. This higher-dimensional realm is the Realm Between Realms and the Yggdrasil is the core of this void, with branches that extend to infinity throughout it.

Here's what I'm breaking down so far regarding the size ranking.

• Ginnungagap
  • Realm between Realms
    • Yggdrasil
      • Niflheim - Primordial Ice Realm
      • Muspelheim - Primordial Fire Realm
    • Somewhere in Ginnungagap where Niflheim and Muspelheim met, AKA Spark of the World

What is the distinction between Ginnungagap and the Realm between Realms?

 

[Planck69]

Here's what I'm breaking down so far regarding the size ranking.

• Ginnungagap
  • Realm between Realms
    • Yggdrasil
      • Niflheim - Primordial Ice Realm
      • Muspelheim - Primordial Fire Realm
    • Somewhere in Ginnungagap where Niflheim and Muspelheim met, AKA Spark of the World

What is the distinction between Ginnungagap and the Realm between Realms?

The Ginnungagap is a space within the Yggdrasil itself that Ymir emerged out of, while the Realm Between Realm is the cosmic void within which the Yggdrasil exists, and subsequently all of the Norse cosmology.


Basically; Ginnungagap < Yggdrasil < Realm Between Realms

 

[KLOL506]

What is the distinction between Ginnungagap and the Realm between Realms?

Ginnungagap, AKA the Spark of the World, is also merely a part of Yggdrasil itself. It is not the same location as the Realm Between the Realms.

As per the official map, the Spark of the World is situated in the Middle of the Tree itself, in between Muspelheim and Niflheim.

 

[KLOL506]

The Ginnungagap is a space within the Yggdrasil itself that Ymir emerged out of, while the Realm Between Realm is the cosmic void within which the Yggdrasil exists, and subsequently all of the Norse cosmology.


Basically; Ginnungagap < Yggdrasil < Realm Between Realms

Also this.

 

[Georredannea15]

Here's what I'm breaking down so far regarding the size ranking.

• Ginnungagap
  • Realm between Realms
    • Yggdrasil
      • Niflheim - Primordial Ice Realm
      • Muspelheim - Primordial Fire Realm
    • Somewhere in Ginnungagap where Niflheim and Muspelheim met, AKA Spark of the World

What is the distinction between Ginnungagap and the Realm between Realms?

Ginnungagap is the great void within Yggdrasil and is the source of primordial forces.

 

[Gasper]

I think he will understand if only one person answers him.

 

[Georredannea15]

I think he will understand if only one person answers him.

bullies

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also hypertimelines

 

[Fixxed]

Lets just make cycle is mean add 1 dimensional axis of time (hypertimeline), and the roots branchs and strands add 1 dimensional axis of space(infinitely larger than realm), and entire yggdrasil add one more space(the roots just small part in it), make it 7D(3D+2D space + 2D time). And make realm between realm 8D because encompasses the yggdrasil it self

 

[KLOL506]

Lets just make cycle is mean add 1 dimensional axis of time (hypertimeline), and the roots branchs and strands add 1 dimensional axis of space(infinitely larger than realm), and entire yggdrasil add one more space(the roots just small part in it), make it 7D(3D+2D space + 2D time). And make realm between realm 8D because encompasses the yggdrasil it self

 

[Firestorm808]

So all the 9 realms are located in Ginnungagap, but Ginnungagap is inside the World Tree, which is inside the Realm Between Realms?

 

[Gasper]

So all the realms are located in Ginnungagap, but Ginnungagap is inside the World Tree, which is inside the Realm Between Realms?

No, ginnungagap is between two realms

 

[KLOL506]

So all the realms are located in Ginnungagap,

No, the Realms are located on the branches of Yggdrasil. Only Niflheim and Muspelheim originated from Ginnungagap when they merged, but they are no longer part of Ginnungagap, only sharing gateways with it while being on their own World Tree branches. The Ginnungagap is big enough to contain Ymir tho (Who is indeed bigger than the 9 Realms), and Odin later killed him and carved him up to form the 6 other realms (Asgard, Midgard, Alfheim, Svartalfheim, Vanaheim and Helheim). Jotunheim was formed from Ymir's essence which served as a cataclysmic cosmic flood that threatened to wipe out all of creation.

but Ginnungagap is inside the World Tree, which is inside the Realm Between Realms?

Yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

So at the beginning,

1. Niflheim, Muspelheim, and Ymir emerged in Ginnungagap.
2. Odin killed Ymir in Ginnungagap
3. Odin left Ginnungagap to carve out the other new Realms using Ymir's body.
4. Niflheim and Muspelheim split off from Ginnungagap.

Am I understanding this right?

 

[Planck69]

So at the beginning,

1. Niflheim, Muspelheim, and Ymir emerged in Ginnungagap.
2. Odin killed Ymir in Ginnungagap
3. Odin left Ginnungagap to carve out the other new Realms using Ymir's body.
4. Niflheim and Muspelheim split off from Ginnungagap.

Am I understanding this right?

- Niflheim and Muspellheim emerged out of the Primordial Forces of Fire and Ice.

- Ymir emerges from the Spark of the World where the two meet.

- Ymir is eventually killed by Odin, after which the realms are made by Odin (though Jotunheim is naturally formed from him).

- The Nine Realms end up on the branches of the World Tree.

For the most part, you're right.

 

[Firestorm808]

• Realm between Realms
  • Yggdrasil
    • Ginnungagap (Pseudo Realm)
    • Niflheim - Primordial Ice Realm
    • Muspelheim - Primordial Fire Realm
    • Jotunheim from Ymir
    • 6 Other Realms made by Odin

I can see the merit if we're taking the Realm Timelines as infinitesimal points compared to the whole World Tree.

 

[KLOL506]

7 Other Realms made by Odin

Correction: 6. Jotunheim was formed naturally from Ymir's death-blood-flood. Unlikely tho that it'd make any difference.

 

[TheGod]

bump

 

[Georredannea15]

bump

 

[KLOL506]

Also hypertimelines

@Planck69 @GilverTheProtoAngelo This is your territory, so good luck handling it LOL

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[Fixxed]

Ohh come on when will this suffer come to an end

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[Eseseso]

Maybe ask my boy @KingTempest to see what he thinks.

 

[TheGod]

sad bump