Alucard (Hellsing) major CRT

[Random-Helper323]

I just edited Alucard's page. I fixed some spelling and grammar issues, the "SR-17", listed the transformations into the information, and linked the blog as the soul number justification instead of that image.

If the plane crash is accepted, I can link that into the verse page as well.

Edit: I linked the plane crash blog into the verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

Hello.

DMUA rejected the following calculation, so it can not be used to scale any characters from at all:

Alucard Crash's a Plane

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Hello.

DMUA rejected the following calculation, so it can not be used to scale any characters from at all:

Alucard Crash's a Plane

vsbattles.fandom.com

Why so suddenly? When was this decided?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Hello.

DMUA rejected the following calculation, so it can not be used to scale any characters from at all:

Alucard Crash's a Plane

vsbattles.fandom.com

I knew DMUA opposed it, but two other calc group members accepted it and you and the others agreed to use it. We'll have to alter the whole thing if that's changed. Pink God built most of the new profile's AP section around that calculation.

If that's the case, I can do it. I'll need to know what feat is now being used so I can revise the whole thing again.

 

[Robo432343]

aint no way this isn't gonna get accepted

 

[Random-Helper323]

aint no way this isn't gonna get accepted

I have no clue. Last I heard the plane crash feat was accepted overall. Let's wait just a bit longer and see what else needs to be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Hello.

DMUA rejected the following calculation, so it can not be used to scale any characters from at all:

Alucard Crash's a Plane

vsbattles.fandom.com

I knew DMUA opposed it, but two other calc group members accepted it and you and the others agreed to use it. We'll have to alter the whole thing if that's changed. Pink God built most of the new profile's AP section around that calculation.

If that's the case, I can do it. I'll need to know what feat is now being used so I can revise the whole thing again.

Yes, my mistake. It seems like three other calc group members accepted the calculation, so it can probably be used after all.

@DMUA @Armorchompy @Migue79 @CloverDragon03

Can you try to reach an agreement here please, given that you all evaluated the above-linked blog earlier?

 

[CloverDragon03]

The math is perfectly fine, DMUA’s concern is with it being an outlier. I don’t know the verse as well, so that’s not something I can answer

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Crabwhale]

Yeah from what I understood DUMM's problem isn't that the calc itself is bad, it's mostly that the scene is different in the anime vs the manga.

 

[Random-Helper323]

To be blunt, I tend to think dismissing something merely as an outlier (not a contradicting feat, that's different) is kind of unreasonable, because first off you're taking something that did happen and essentially saying that it didn't, and I'm given to understand that completely disregarding outlier data in statistics in mathematics and science is considered to be corrupting the data. That is, generally speaking. In this case there is an actual way exclusion of an outlier can be reasonable.

The issue of the explosion being in the OVA only is a valid concern. Technically the difference between the manga and the OVA is that the manga doesn't show the whole explosion, so it isn't irreconcilable. However, this is where the usually unreasonable outlier comes back in. I'm given to understand that in statistics, outlier data is only to be excluded if it is the result of an error. In other words, if we have reason to believe that the OVA scene is not the same, namely an error, and the feat is noticeably different from other data, the outlier issue can be considered.

That's my thoughts on the matter. I thought people here agreed using the OVA was fine as long as it doesn't contradict the manga.

 

[Tots_Real]

Honestly the calc that DMUA linked seems off since the explosion from the ship seems to reach farther then the fight deck of the ship which would give a distance way higher then the radius used.

 

[AguilaR202]

Why not just use the KE of the SR 71 blackbird?

 

[Tots_Real]

Why not just use the KE of the SR 71 blackbird?

Because the explosion would get way higher. Also by the end it was more Alucard then plane.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, since three of our calc group members have accepted the math itself, and one has strictly rejected it because he considered it as an outlier, it can probably be used.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Well, since three of our calc group members have accepted the math itself, and one has strictly rejected it because he considered it as an outlier, it can probably be used.

Okay, in that case I don't need to revise the page again. If someone could link the next highest feat's calc blog here I'll link that to the verse page as a backup, if such a blog exists.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

So what, if anything, is left to do here currently?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Thank you for helping out.

So what, if anything, is left to do here currently?

I think that's all. If Pink God, Tots Real or Crabwhale could link any blog calculating the next highest Hellsing feats, I'll link them to the verse page. Right now I'll look over the character pages for any such blog. If I find it I'll say so and that should be all.

Edit: actually, I need to make another edit to Alucard's page as well. I need to fix a small bit of clarification about forms, and his Level 0 state is assumed to have higher physical power than Level 1 based on a statement about Level 0 breaking Heaven or something, which was generally rejected as flowery language, not to mention the only quantifiable measurement that statement can give if taken seriously is either universal for Heaven being the universe or something like country level for splitting the entire sky. Doesn't help that we obviously never see any Heaven break. Obviously that isn't acceptable. So I guess I should either remove any stuff about his physicals being boosted by Level 0 or I just say possibly and remove the flowery statement, or make a small note about that flowery statement if necessary.

 

[DMUA]

Honestly the calc that DMUA linked seems off since the explosion from the ship seems to reach farther then the fight deck of the ship which would give a distance way higher then the radius used.

I think I mentioned it offhand earlier in this thread, but another problem is that the ship itself is mostly undamaged. 20 PSI requires basically everything within the radius to be obliterated, but I remember the tower at the center of the ship and the deck itself being totally fine by all accounts. It is a fuel explosion, so this would mostly just be fire anyways

 

[DMUA]

Addendum: it was an entirely different thread I made this statement on

Still applies, anyhow

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, two things need to be done. DMUA is still strongly against the calculation, and leaving aside the issue of excluding outlier data being considered corrupting or censoring the data, DMUA has raised two issues; the OVA scene being different from the manga, and now inconsistent damage to pair with the difference between OVA and manga, which could easily justify calling the larger explosion an error, the one situation where math and statistics do exclude outlier data.

Admittedly a lack of collateral damage is not a solid reason to dismiss feats since fiction tends to misrepresent such things.

Hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement about the plane crash feat.

And either way we'll need the next highest blog calculation anyway.

 

[DMUA]

Admittedly a lack of collateral damage is not a solid reason to dismiss feats since fiction tends to misrepresent such things.

It is in the case of directly measuring the energy of a specific blast. If it doesn't obliterate everything in range, it's just not 20 PSI, plain and simple. Yeah, there's leeway to violations of energy conservation in terms of characters attacking stuff in general, but in the direct feats they're scaled to, a blast that ignores physics shouldn't be calculated as a blast in the conventional sense, plain and simple.

I remember calculating this as like, generating flame (which this would primarily be) and that would still get solid numbers, even if not quite as high

 

[Random-Helper323]

It is in the case of directly measuring the energy of a specific blast. If it doesn't obliterate everything in range, it's just not 20 PSI, plain and simple. Yeah, there's leeway to violations of energy conservation in terms of characters attacking stuff in general, but in the direct feats they're scaled to, a blast that ignores physics shouldn't be calculated as a blast in the conventional sense, plain and simple.

I can kind of see that, but I think there's already some leeway there. People already use kinetic energy feats where collateral damage is less than it should be. Is that rule unique to explosion calculations?

I remember calculating this as like, generating flame (which this would primarily be) and that would still get solid numbers, even if not quite as high

That sounds interesting. I know you're busy, but if you could make a new calculation for that, we might be able to finally finish this content revision thread.

 

[DMUA]

I can kind of see that, but I think there's already some leeway there. People already use kinetic energy feats where collateral damage is less than it should be. Is that rule unique to explosion calculations?

KE rules specifically outlaw that, so

Even then, Explosions are all about it specifically corelating to how much damage it does, if it doesn't do the damage, it's not a proper explosion. There's no rule about it because it's just inherently how explosions work, it's not something like "yeah moving at Rel should make you 7-A but that's really inconsistent so generally save it for them doing 7-A damage", it's just "this explosion should destroy this, it doesn't, therefore the explosion either isn't real or is less powerful than projected"

That sounds interesting. I know you're busy, but if you could make a new calculation for that, we might be able to finally finish this content revision thread.

I think I've done this before but I'll have to check my blog posts and worse comes to worse just remake it

 

[Random-Helper323]

KE rules specifically outlaw that, so

Really? I'm sure I've seen accepted calculations with massive kinetic energy and no concern for the lack of environmental damage. Like a character dishes out continent level force but the continent he's in doesn't become a crater because he swings his arm in it, etc. Or a character drags the earth around but everyone doesn't die as a result.

Even then, Explosions are all about it specifically corelating to how much damage it does, if it doesn't do the damage, it's not a proper explosion. There's no rule about it because it's just inherently how explosions work, it's not something like "yeah moving at Rel should make you 7-A but that's really inconsistent so generally save it for them doing 7-A damage", it's just "this explosion should destroy this, it doesn't, therefore the explosion either isn't real or is less powerful than projected"

Admittedly, the fire we see in the OVA could be argued to be a burst of fire rather than a typical explosion. And of course there's the all-important issue of the OVA and manga showing it differently.

I think I've done this before but I'll have to check my blog posts and worse comes to worse just remake it

That'd be great, if you could be so kind as to find the time. If you link it here I'd be happy to make the page edits, as long as we can all agree on it.

 

[DMUA]

Really? I'm sure I've seen accepted calculations with massive kinetic energy and no concern for the lack of environmental damage. Like a character dishes out continent level force but the continent he's in doesn't become a crater because he swings his arm in it, etc. Or a character drags the earth around but everyone doesn't die as a result.

there may be context that says it's fine but just by itself, it's a nogo

Off the top of my head there's like, Infamous second son where one of the characters can kick at near lightspeed, but there's also E=MC^2 feats and other stuff (and they kick people away from the ground instead of into it) so that's accepted, there could be similar circumstances in specific cases but by and large, nah

 

[AguilaR202]

I still believe KE should be used vs any other method for this, both mass and speed are real life measurements and there is substantial collateral damage compared to all calcs that sidestep this rule because of some nonsense contrivance that doesn’t actually adress the underlying issue of calculated AP vs shown DC.

 

[Random-Helper323]

there may be context that says it's fine but just by itself, it's a nogo

Off the top of my head there's like, Infamous second son where one of the characters can kick at near lightspeed, but there's also E=MC^2 feats and other stuff (and they kick people away from the ground instead of into it) so that's accepted, there could be similar circumstances in specific cases but by and large, nah

I'm not sure you and I are on the same page here. I'm not referring to speed automatically translating to AP. I'm referring to calculations of a character moving something heavy at a certain velocity, but ignoring the fact that such kinetic energy would realistically have an impact on the rest of the world, or would realistically tear the object apart or shoot through it rather than move it.

 

[DMUA]

I'm referring to calculations of a character moving something heavy at a certain velocity, but ignoring the fact that such kinetic energy would realistically have an impact on the rest of the world, or would realistically tear the object apart or shoot through it rather than move it.

Oh yeah that got ditched awhile ago, feel free to CRT away anything you see

I vividly remember Game and Watch being downgraded off of this exact thing being outed

 

[Random-Helper323]

Oh yeah that got ditched awhile ago, feel free to CRT away anything you see

I vividly remember Game and Watch being downgraded off of this exact thing being outed

Wouldn't that mean any feat where a character moves a planet, continents, etc. without any lasting damage would be dismissed? So if someone shifts the earth somewhere but people aren't all destroyed it means the feat isn't viable?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, DMUA.

It would be very useful if you are willing to properly redo the calculation in question, yes.

 

[Robo432343]

i thot the calculation is already fine as it is

 

[DMUA]

Wouldn't that mean any feat where a character moves a planet, continents, etc. without any lasting damage would be dismissed? So if someone shifts the earth somewhere but people aren't all destroyed it means the feat isn't viable?

There is an exception made for moving massive objects (it would be really strange if swinging a sword the size of a skyscraper faster than sound was just 8-C, for instance, and even stranger if shoving a planet at a speed approaching light was just incalculable) it's more like

Again, KE rules are all over the place mostly because applying them outside of strict cases gets really wacky and explosion calculations are fundamentally different anyways so I've probably carried with this way too long

Either way I'll do the flame generation calc once I get onto my computer

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated.

 

[DMUA]

Admittedly, having remembered that this was even a thing, I'm also remembering that you don't really take a fireball in the same way you take a blast

Like, taking a shockwave point blank means it has to take a straight path through your body and you need to be fairly durable to withstand that, but with fire, even being set fully ablaze, while being 9-B in energy, is also something you can survive at least temporarily even as a normal person (much less having any amount of superhuman durability as Alucard does)

It's great for calculating the generation of stuff like Burning Hands but just as a durability feat, it's questionable (even then we don't even necessarily see Alucard in tact immediately after landing, he's out of sight for more than long enough to regenerate any damage he would have taken in the process), so it's probably just better to ditch the feat and stick to 9-A scaling up from Seras (who genuinely tanks an explosion in the 9-A range and jumps out the instant later just minorly scratched up)

 

[Random-Helper323]

There is an exception made for moving massive objects (it would be really strange if swinging a sword the size of a skyscraper faster than sound was just 8-C, for instance, and even stranger if shoving a planet at a speed approaching light was just incalculable) it's more like

Again, KE rules are all over the place mostly because applying them outside of strict cases gets really wacky and explosion calculations are fundamentally different anyways so I've probably carried with this way too long

Thanks for clarifying. I know this wasn't the place to discuss that. Apologies for the derail.

Admittedly, having remembered that this was even a thing, I'm also remembering that you don't really take a fireball in the same way you take a blast

Like, taking a shockwave point blank means it has to take a straight path through your body and you need to be fairly durable to withstand that, but with fire, even being set fully ablaze, while being 9-B in energy, is also something you can survive at least temporarily even as a normal person (much less having any amount of superhuman durability as Alucard does)

It's great for calculating the generation of stuff like Burning Hands but just as a durability feat, it's questionable (even then we don't even necessarily see Alucard in tact immediately after landing, he's out of sight for more than long enough to regenerate any damage he would have taken in the process), so it's probably just better to ditch the feat and stick to 9-A scaling up from Seras (who genuinely tanks an explosion in the 9-A range and jumps out the instant later just minorly scratched up)

The reasoning behind using it was that Alucard protected the coffin from the blast, not that he himself wasn't killed by it. The profile worded it wrongly. Although if it's fire generation isn't that more heat resistance rather than durability anyway?

 

[DMUA]

The reasoning behind using it was that Alucard protected the coffin from the blast, not that he himself wasn't killed by it. The profile worded it wrongly. Although if it's fire generation isn't that more heat resistance rather than durability anyway?

I guess I forgot about that part (even if I don't really like it) but yeah the same principle of durability against fire being strange applies

 

[Random-Helper323]

I guess I forgot about that part (even if I don't really like it) but yeah the same principle of durability against fire being strange applies

There's also the fact that the coffin was in the tail of the plane. A plane designed to exceed the speed of sound. Chances are the plane offered some protection. Not from an explosion, but from fire, definitely.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the current conclusions here?

 

[Random-Helper323]

So what are the current conclusions here?

We should probably get a bit more input since we're talking about overturning a currently accepted calculation, as much as this thread has already dragged on. If DMUA could make a calculation blog for Hellsing's other feats, that would at least give us something to fall back on. Feats I can think of are Tubalcain smashing a small building, the Captain kicking Seras through several floors of the zeppelin, and Rip Van Winkle and Tubalcain destroying fighter jets (Rip only) and helicopters. I also had the thought when I made my soul release calculation that since Alucard discharged the soul army forcefully like projectiles that it could possibly scale to Alucard's own power.

I'll make any changes necessary to the pages, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only one knowledgeable on Hellsing who both knows all the things this thread has discussed and hasn't walked away from it.