Hellsing: Upgrades

[LordGinSama]

This has been a long time coming, now let's get to work on updating these booty profiles.


Big thanks to the goat @CloverDragon03 for pumping out two calculations which were essential for the verse.


The scaling

---

As mentioned above, two calcs were released recently with both providing nice upgrades. And due to this CRT where the universal energy system was accepted for the verse in the form of blood.




For scaling, we have the existing universal energy system, but specifically for telekinesis, Tubalcain was shown to move his cards telekinetically to attack, and those attacks were comparable to his physical attacks. Rip Van Winkle also attacked by moving her bullet telekinetically, and Alucard overwhelmed that telekinesis by catching the bullet in his teeth, and then afterwards he punched her and she was able to survive the punch.



All these powers come from a common power source, namely blood, with the same power source powering the physicals and the other powers as well, and Tubalcain and Rip are both lesser copies of Alucard, so these powers all fall under the same category of vampiric powers, which Alucard is literally the original creator of.


Therefore TK would scale to one's physicals in Hellsing, with TK simply offering more range and area of effect.



Essentially only Alucard, True Vampire Seras, Anderson, The Captain and Walter would scale to Alucard's 7-C feat.


the Millennium Vampires such as Zorin, Seras in her weaker keys, Tubalcain and Luke downscale from Alucard's 8-B+ feat.


The upgrades

---

After addressing that TK in Hellsing scales directly to one's own physical strength, now it's time to discuss the upgrades. The two aforementioned calculations were accepted with the following.


Alucard lifts a ship with his mind + Fog creation (8-B+ and Class M LS.) and Alucard flooding all of London with the blood of millions (7-C and class T LS.)


Note: This thread is not to discuss the calculations themselves, they are accepted and if one has any issue with them take it up properly with a calc group thread to discuss any concerns.

Spoiler: Debunking "Anti-Feats." & outlier arguments.

Alucard has two separate feats both of which support one another. There's also the existence of Alucard's black-bird feat which isn't being used for whatever reason, but alas it would still be supportive evidence for the verse being beyond 9-A. Alucard also has another possible tier 8 - 7 feat with him.



The entire "Alucard gets hurt by a lot less." argument is a really bad one and shouldn't even be used, given the fact that whenever Alucard wants he can outright tank and overpower attacks physically. (Here with Dandy-Man and here with Monster Anderson. Did the same thing with Van-Winkle, letting her damage him just to overpower her TK bullets in his mouth.)



The only time where he's shown getting hurt by lesser attacks such as gun-fire and smaller explosions is when Alucard is actively trying to toy and freak his opponents out.



That's his main shtick, to instill the most amount of fear into the opponent before brutally dispatching them.

That is all.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The only thing I’m unsure of is the Class T lifting strength, since he doesn’t really carry all that blood in any way. He just kinda disperses it

Everything else seems fine

 

[LordGinSama]

Actually he uses his TK to suck all that blood back into his body, dispersing would be him spreading the blood out but in this case he's sucking it all back in.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Bloody heck intresting CRT to be sure, I can't wait to see how the discussion will unfold.

Will 7-C apply to both pre and post catboy Alucard?

 

[The_Pink_God]

The only problem I have is that, as Dracoganger commented on the calc, the Mist Density has no viable source to back it up
For the London feat, I think going with the anime timeframe that it took for the Blood to flood everything (15 minutes IIRC) would be a better idea than the 60s

 

[LordGinSama]

The London feat in the anime is internationally dragged out. Hellsing OVA's are long as ****, plus we aren't allowed to use cinematic timing anyway.


I'm sure Clover has a reference for the fog density.

 

[The_Pink_God]

plus we aren't allowed to use cinematic timing anyway.

since when?

 

[LordGinSama]

Cinematic Time

Cinematic time is the term used to refer to time as it is depicted on-screen in an audio-visual work. In other words, it is the time as measured by the audience of said audio-visual work. Cinematic time generally does not equal the time passing in the story. Often, it passes at different speeds...

vsbattles.fandom.com

60s is fine.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The only problem I have is that, as Dracoganger commented on the calc, the Mist Density has no viable source to back it up
For the London feat, I think going with the anime timeframe that it took for the Blood to flood everything (15 minutes IIRC) would be a better idea than the 60s

It’s accepted on the wiki and has been used multiple times before. Also, 7-C is for GPE, not KE, so neither of these are issues

 

[The_Pink_God]

used multiple times before.

examples?

 

[Random-Helper323]

As Gin said, the calculations are already accepted. And the cinematic time in this case is unusable because the scene keeps cutting to show the blood and to show what everyone is doing. These things would have all been happening at the same time.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

My future matchs are ruined

I agree. I remember that Alexander is bulletproof, the same to which Alucard is comparable, so yeah, there not so many antifeats, but would be good to put some note/explanation on the profile so that future discussions about this can be avoided

 

[LordGinSama]

My future matchs are ruined

Not really whenever Alucard is the type of mad lad to let his opponents damage him just for shit and giggles.

I agree. I remember that Alexander is bulletproof, the same to which Alucard is comparable, so yeah, there not so many antifeats, but would be good to put some note/explanation on the profile so that future discussions about this can be avoided

Yeah we'll be doing that, plus there's Tubalcain slashing apart rounds from Seras anti-tank rifle (Logic be damned I guess because both her rifles basically act as mini rail-guns with the amount of damage they cause.)

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm not entirely sold on Hellsing GT's being 7-C tbh, but i also can see the reasoning behind it, so i'll just remain neutral.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

what about the 7-B end, unaccepted?

 

[CloverDragon03]

what about the 7-B end, unaccepted?

Correct

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

cringe

 

[Random-Helper323]

Big thanks to the goat @CloverDragon03 for pumping out two calculations which were essential for the verse.

Yes, well done, CloverDragon03.

For scaling, we have the existing universal energy system, but specifically for telekinesis, Tubalcain was shown to move his cards telekinetically to attack, and those attacks were comparable to his physical attacks. Rip Van Winkle also attacked by moving her bullet telekinetically, and Alucard overwhelmed that telekinesis by catching the bullet in his teeth, and then afterwards he punched her and she was able to survive the punch.

All these powers come from a common power source, namely blood, with the same power source powering the physicals and the other powers as well, and Tubalcain and Rip are both lesser copies of Alucard, so these powers all fall under the same category of vampiric powers, which Alucard is literally the original creator of.

This commonality also applies to the mental powers/third eye, since Seras' surpassed Zorin's and allowed her to not only resist the illusions but also nullify their ability to affect the soldiers. The fact that her physicals and third eye both simultaneously grew from being overwhelmed by Zorin's to stomping Zorin's, behaved a great deal like a higher power level in Dragon Ball, with all her abilities increasing at a similar rate to each other.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[Robo432343]

so uh, can alucards AP be used in vs matches? coz he didnt destroy London, blood and his souls just encompassed all of it

 

[CloverDragon03]

so uh, can alucards AP be used in vs matches? coz he didnt destroy London, blood and his souls just encompassed all of it

He scales to the GPE of all that blood. Doesn't matter if he didn't destroy London, because the GPE of that blood is what's 7-C

 

[Robo432343]

He scales to the GPE of all that blood. Doesn't matter if he didn't destroy London, because the GPE of that blood is what's 7-C

tf is GPE

 

[Greatsage13th]

tf is GPE

Gravitational Potential Energy

 

[CloverDragon03]

tf is GPE

Gravitational Potential Energy

Basically the amount of energy that amount of blood has for just existing

 

[DMUA]

For scaling, we have the existing universal energy system, but specifically for telekinesis, Tubalcain was shown to move his cards telekinetically to attack, and those attacks were comparable to his physical attacks. Rip Van Winkle also attacked by moving her bullet telekinetically, and Alucard overwhelmed that telekinesis by catching the bullet in his teeth, and then afterwards he punched her and she was able to survive the punch.

I don't get why Tubalcain malding at Seras and not visibly physically attacking in anyways proves his telekinesis is equatable, nor do I get scaling Rip Van Winkle's TK to her physicals because someone who outright curbstomps her in melee happened to catch a bullet with his teeth. Yeah, she survives the punch, but it's also established in this very thread that Alucard plays up the fear element to his own physical detriment, and that punch is immediately followed by him impaling her on her own gun (which really isn't a proper stabbing implement) while she's completely helpless in his grip

All these powers come from a common power source, namely blood, with the same power source powering the physicals and the other powers as well, and Tubalcain and Rip are both lesser copies of Alucard, so these powers all fall under the same category of vampiric powers, which Alucard is literally the original creator of.

Personally I don't mind universal energy system, the main issue with Hellsing is the sheer dissonance between the genuine physical feats and telekinesis. Alucard really just never performs any Tier 8 feat via his bare hands, meanwhile he gets messed up by Tier 9 firepower all the time. As this thread states, and I do agree with, that's more him sandbagging for the sake of it, but enter Walter with more visibly destructive stuff like cutting through buildings with his wires (which isn't necessary Tier 8 in it's own right on account of him using his incredibly thin wires, messing up surface area by quite a bit) and he violently rips Alucard apart with every single attack

There's also the existence of Alucard's black-bird feat which isn't being used for whatever reason

Mostly the fact that the actual damage to the ship gravely contradicts the idea of the impact being Tier 8, violates our KE rules and the damage of the blast on the actual ship seems to be a way lower PSI than we normally assume

 

[DMUA]

This commonality also applies to the mental powers/third eye, since Seras' surpassed Zorin's and allowed her to not only resist the illusions but also nullify their ability to affect the soldiers. The fact that her physicals and third eye both simultaneously grew from being overwhelmed by Zorin's to stomping Zorin's, behaved a great deal like a higher power level in Dragon Ball, with all her abilities increasing at a similar rate to each other.

This doesn't really work either. Seras was already more than capable of getting past the illusions by a default and ended up being caught in it's reapplication, before her going full vampire allowed her to regain her footing again. Saying she just Ki-stone walled the illusions she could already nullify by default is a bit of a strange assumption, especially when it's a purely psychological power and not really the outright application of force remotely by invisible means

 

[Random-Helper323]

This doesn't really work either. Seras was already more than capable of getting past the illusions by a default and ended up being caught in it's reapplication

That's not exactly accurate. The illusion she resisted earlier, and wasn't able to dispel to protect the soldiers, was an illusion cast from much further away on a general area. The one she was caught by was cast directly on her face and she was helpless against it. It was only after becoming a True Vampire that she could resist those. That's where the already accepted two layers of mental resistance comes from.

Saying she just Ki-stone walled the illusions she could already nullify by default is a bit of a strange assumption

She couldn't nullify them earlier though. She could resist a weaker illusion and couldn't even nullify that, and then she was unable to resist a stronger illusion. Then her True Vampire self could resist that stronger illusion and nullify the weaker one's larger scale effects.

especially when it's a purely psychological power and not really the outright application of force remotely by invisible means

Does that really matter when we're discussing mental prowess? I guess you mean it's irrelevant to AP, which would typically be true, but it's internal scaling of abilities which come from the same power source, making it relevant to how the characters' powers compare to each other within the verse.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I don't get why Tubalcain malding at Seras and not visibly physically attacking in anyways proves his telekinesis is equatable

the main issue with Hellsing is the sheer dissonance between the genuine physical feats and telekinesis. Alucard really just never performs any Tier 8 feat via his bare hands

I understand the concerns, but if you think about it, stacking these two above thoughts together we get the idea that Tubalcain's telekinesis was capable of far stronger attacks than his physical attacks, was able to move the cards around to block incoming automatic fire, and yet he was pushed to his limits against Alucard and didn't try to turn the fight around by using that same telekinesis to move the cards around and attack and defend against Alucard. This guy who manipulated the police chiefs and was the pinnacle of Millennium's vampire research, was either extremely stupid or his telekinetic attacks were not stronger than his physical ones. In addition, when he loses the doctor says he needs to do more work, suggesting that Tubalcain was the pinnacle of his work, and the closest thing to a clone of Alucard. The OVA also shows him using the cards telekinetically to attack Alucard, briefly.

meanwhile he gets messed up by Tier 9 firepower all the time.

As this thread states, and I do agree with, that's more him sandbagging for the sake of it

In all fairness, you just explained his ridiculous anti-feats right there. If he intentionally lets things mess him up for dramatic effect, then those times where guns and the like mess him up tell us very little.

 

[LordGinSama]

Random essentially already said what I was going to say tbh.




We've already seem that Alucard can be tanky as **** whenever he really wants to. (Such as taking blows from Anderson and tanking the bullet Rip shot at him with his literal mouth. Alucard cutting past Tubalcain's cards with just his hand without getting harmed.




Also the Walter argument doesn't make sense either, since again Alucard was intentionally letting him get harmed by Walter's wires. (He tanked getting dragged by them.) and he knew that Walter wasn't going to come close to bearing him.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the OP.

 

[LordGinSama]

Mostly the fact that the actual damage to the ship gravely contradicts the idea of the impact being Tier 8, violates our KE rules and the damage of the blast on the actual ship seems to be a way lower PSI than we normally assume

Uh wait, are you saying that because the aircraft carrier wasn't blown up into bits that violates the rules of our KE standards? Not sure if that makes much sense considering how well aircraft carries are built, amongst the fact that contextually destroying the ship would be a no-go.


Remember Alucard needed to use that ship to gain access to his coffin. Destroying the ship would render the mission useless, so it makes sense to why it wasn't destroyed completely (But it was in fact rendered immobilized so the amount of damage done to it was definitely significant.)




I don't think an 8-B+ explosion would blow a military grade Aircraft carrier into bits especially one that's being affected and essentially held together by Alucard's TK.

 

[LordGinSama]

A good chunk of half the ship was literally blown into bits, set ablaze, big ass explosions ensue and the ship was rendered immobilized if it weren't for Alucard's TK.



Not sure how that "violates." our KE rules here. Significant damage was caused, and it isn't like light speed KE nonsense is being used here. Keep in mind regular kamikaze attacks don't outright destroy Aircraft carriers either.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Personally I don't mind universal energy system, the main issue with Hellsing is the sheer dissonance between the genuine physical feats and telekinesis. Alucard really just never performs any Tier 8 feat via his bare hands

When was doing such a thing with your bare hands ever a requirement for fully scaling to the feat? Especially in cases like this involving a universal energy system… Seems kinda arbitrary to me

meanwhile he gets messed up by Tier 9 firepower all the time. As this thread states, and I do agree with, that's more him sandbagging for the sake of it, but enter Walter with more visibly destructive stuff like cutting through buildings with his wires (which isn't necessary Tier 8 in it's own right on account of him using his incredibly thin wires, messing up surface area by quite a bit) and he violently rips Alucard apart with every single attack

You kinda addressed your own concern here. Alucard is simply sandbagging to instill the most amount of fear in his opponent possible

Mostly the fact that the actual damage to the ship gravely contradicts the idea of the impact being Tier 8, violates our KE rules and the damage of the blast on the actual ship seems to be a way lower PSI than we normally assume

I don’t see how this is the case? The ship was heavily damaged and couldn’t function without Alucard’s Telekinesis

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

A periodic reminder that AP =/= DC peeps.

 

[LordGinSama]

A periodic reminder that AP =/= DC peeps.

Unless there's a Universal Energy system involved, which there is.

 

[DMUA]

I did write all that at like 2 AM to just get a general concept across, so bare with me here

I understand the concerns, but if you think about it, stacking these two above thoughts together we get the idea that Tubalcain's telekinesis was capable of far stronger attacks than his physical attacks, was able to move the cards around to block incoming automatic fire, and yet he was pushed to his limits against Alucard and didn't try to turn the fight around by using that same telekinesis to move the cards around and attack and defend against Alucard. This guy who manipulated the police chiefs and was the pinnacle of Millennium's vampire research, was either extremely stupid or his telekinetic attacks were not stronger than his physical ones. In addition, when he loses the doctor says he needs to do more work, suggesting that Tubalcain was the pinnacle of his work, and the closest thing to a clone of Alucard. The OVA also shows him using the cards telekinetically to attack Alucard, briefly.

I mean, Telekinesis is an extremely useful ability outside of just raw attack power. Being able to lift or shove someone without leverage could force them into a lot of unfavorable situations, he could have probably caught and redirected Alucard's bullets, there's a lot of things that don't rely on something exceeding their raw power that they just... don't bother to do. I've sorta always been under the impression that the writer didn't think about it enough, more than this being a testament that it's actually relatively weak in comparison

Also the Walter argument doesn't make sense either, since again Alucard was intentionally letting him get harmed by Walter's wires. (He tanked getting dragged by them.) and he knew that Walter wasn't going to come close to bearing him.

I must be remembering an entirely different Walter fight. Walter repeatedly gores the guy, messes up his familiars and weapons, and almost straight up kills Alucard if not for him pulling a last minute trick, and apparently Alucard was just fine with that and didn't try that hard? I get he might have been toying with him a little bit by not just immediately sucking up all his own blood to guarantee victory, but the idea he was just entirely complicit and sandbagging his durability like usual is a bit goofy when he was being repeatedly flayed along with a bunch of his bag of tricks. Then again, also featured in Walter vs Alucard is him never actually attempting to use Telekinesis despite that also having a ton of uses, especially since Walter's wires aren't that heavy and would probably be child's play to redirect

Uh wait, are you saying that because the aircraft carrier wasn't blown up into bits that violates the rules of our KE standards? Not sure if that makes much sense considering how well aircraft carries are built, amongst the fact that contextually destroying the ship would be a no-go.

To quote directly:

• There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.
  • For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

-Kinetic Energy Feats
In this case, we have this massive impact enough to shatter an entire high rise... leaving a ton of fire, and then we get a glimpse of some torn up metal near the impact site. If an a Mach 3 plane was launched directly into it and caused a massive 20 PSI explosion, the ship would have it's structures entirely warped and probably would start sinking. Most of the blast we see is fuel going off, which can indeed cause an explosion, but it's primarily flame instead of the much more destructive pressure that comes with proper bombs.

A good chunk of half the ship was literally blown into bits, set ablaze, big ass explosions ensue and the ship was rendered immobilized if it weren't for Alucard's TK.

Only saw this after I already grabbed the picture I was thinking of, but if you look carefully, there's not a lot of actual structural damage here. It's mostly the fires, which are massive and would definitely debilitate the ship, but in terms of actual metal being ripped apart, it's not much.

Keep in mind regular kamikaze attacks don't outright destroy Aircraft carriers either.

The Japanese Zero mentioned in these texts were also expressly designed to be extremely light and could only go at a top speed of 154.2288 meters per second. The SR-17 amalgamation is a straight up fighter jet weighing in at several tons, accumulating a kinetic energy of what I remember to be around 4 Tons of TNT.

When was doing such a thing with your bare hands ever a requirement for fully scaling to the feat?

When all of their Tier 8 feats are telekinesis while their physical feats are Tier 9, we don't just lump them together without explicit showings of them harming someone who can take telekinesis or something else similar, which doesn't happen here (unless I'm forgetting something and you have that gate to just go nuts)

Unless there's a Universal Energy system involved, which there is.

They're referring to the fact that having attack potency doesn't mean you need to be proportionally destructive, so this statement sort of implies that if you try to scale everything based off a unifying concept, you need to be equally destructive with all of it's representations

 

[Random-Helper323]

I did write all that at like 2 AM to just get a general concept across, so bare with me here

That's understandable. We've all had to do things while exhausted at some point.

I mean, Telekinesis is an extremely useful ability outside of just raw attack power. Being able to lift or shove someone without leverage could force them into a lot of unfavorable situations, he could have probably caught and redirected Alucard's bullets, there's a lot of things that don't rely on something exceeding their raw power that they just... don't bother to do. I've sorta always been under the impression that the writer didn't think about it enough, more than this being a testament that it's actually relatively weak in comparison

When all of their Tier 8 feats are telekinesis while their physical feats are Tier 9, we don't just lump them together without explicit showings of them harming someone who can take telekinesis or something else similar, which doesn't happen here (unless I'm forgetting something and you have that gate to just go nuts)

I understand where you're coming from on this matter, but if the telekinesis was a way to hit harder, then Tubalcain not using it at the end is still kind of strange. I should clarify though, I wasn't suggesting the telekinesis was weak in comparison, only that it didn't offer an enormous power jump. If we go by the interpretation you've been putting forward, Tubalcain was capable of hitting literally hundreds of thousands of times harder by using his telekinesis to attack with his cards, and yet decided to use his physical attacks when Alucard went to kill him. He was also shown to attack Alucard with his telekinesis once in the OVA.

In fact, all the inconsistencies you and I have both mentioned can be explained if the telekinesis is not stronger than the physical attacks. Indeed, if Tubalcain can use his telekinesis to move his cards around himself to reliably block automatic fire, he should also be able to use it to support those same cards while he's holding and throwing them.

 

[LordGinSama]

I can post a counter to all of the above when I get out of work.

 

[DMUA]

then Tubalcain not using it at the end is still kind of strange

It is strange because he just doesn't try to use it much at all. The ability to apply invisible force to another enemy is absurdly potent, it's not something you can dodge even if you're much faster than the guy using it, as long as your weight capacity is high enough, you can easily suspend someone way stronger than you by just lifting them away from any potential leverage, and throwing objects would let you attack from pretty much any angle. Yeah, the OVA has him pull it out, but in the Manga I still have to hold to the author not really thinking it through that much (Or for some reason despite being an almost perfect clone, they can exclusively apply telekinesis to playing cards but that seems unlikely)

Indeed, if Tubalcain can use his telekinesis to move his cards around himself to reliably block automatic fire, he should also be able to use it to support those same cards while he's holding and throwing them.

Both of these things are pretty low end Tier 9 feats, so... yeah, they should be capable of doing that, but that doesn't really resolve the primary problem

 

[Random-Helper323]

It is strange because he just doesn't try to use it much at all. The ability to apply invisible force to another enemy is absurdly potent, it's not something you can dodge even if you're much faster than the guy using it, as long as your weight capacity is high enough, you can easily suspend someone way stronger than you by just lifting them away from any potential leverage, and throwing objects would let you attack from pretty much any angle. Yeah, the OVA has him pull it out, but in the Manga I still have to hold to the author not really thinking it through that much (Or for some reason despite being an almost perfect clone, they can exclusively apply telekinesis to playing cards but that seems unlikely)

Unless it can be countered by other vampires' abilities, or can be beaten by physical attacks. For example, Alucard demonstrates an ability to float, and in the case of Walter's wires, you'd be dealing with items Walter throws physically, probably partly with his own telekinesis based on how they move in his vampire state, and obviously items which are hard to see. In the case of Alucard's and Seras' bullets, we're dealing with large guns designed to kill supersonic targets, firing smallish and hard to see bullets made of blessed silver which specifically nullifies at least some vampiric abilities, as it nulls vampire regeneration, and remember, universal energy system.

Of course, writers not thinking of something or just forgetting it, or going for style over substance is pretty common, and considering what kind of author Kota Hirano was before Hellsing, he's used to writing stuff for people turning off their brain and noticing style and not substance.

Both of these things are pretty low end Tier 9 feats, so... yeah, they should be capable of doing that, but that doesn't really resolve the primary problem

Except that if Tubalcain's telekinesis is stronger than his physicals by that much, supporting his physical attacks telekinetically would make his physical attacks also that strong.