A Stake Through the Heart - A Hellsing Downgrade Thread

[TheGreatJedi13]

You guys already warned him for that and he shaped and avoided then he then became the receiving end of aggressive closing remarks.
I don't see it fair that only him gets this treatment of warning even if he is well known for heavily aggressive tones. Because on this one he is trying to level his tone to not be hostile.

Anyway type 2 info from Schrodinger seems valid as it becomes fundamental to his existence.

Idk if absorbing schrodinger would count as info type 2 manipulation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You guys already warned him for that and he shaped and avoided then he then became the receiving end of aggressive closing remarks.
I don't see it fair that only him gets this treatment of warning even if he is well known for heavily aggressive tones. Because on this one he is trying to level his tone to not be hostile.

Spoiler

Anyway type 2 info from Schrodinger seems valid as it becomes fundamental to his existence.

Idk if absorbing schrodinger would count as info type 2 manipulation.

Without info type 2 hax other characters can't interact or Absorb info type 2. I think it's enough to grant information type 2.

I disagree with information type 2 removal for @LordGinSama reasons.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Without info type 2 hax other characters can't interact or Absorb info type 2. I think it's enough to grant information type 2.

I disagree with information type 2 removal for @LordGinSama reasons.

not really it can be achieved via NPI on Info type 2.
it doesn't need to be info manip
but knowing how Schrodinger is constantly handling his info to stay in reality he would get it and if absorbing him also grants his abilities then it could be gain that way.
Problem is. can Schrodinger do it to others and not just himself?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

not really it can be achieved via NPI on Info type 2.

I mean Interaction is achieved by NPI but absorption does need manipulation.

it doesn't need to be info manip
but knowing how Schrodinger is constantly handling his info to stay in reality he would get it and if absorbing him also grants his abilities then it could be gain that way.
Problem is. can Schrodinger do it to others and not just himself?

I am pretty sure Alucard absorbed all of Schrodinger and has all of its Abilities.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I don't remember the concept stuff, but the information is based on the fact that Schrodinger is basically a being composed of information which he himself interprets and dictates, specifically he controls his own state, and outside factors can be overridden by that control. You don't get to decide he's a pile of ashes just because you doused him in jet fuel and lit him on fire, he decides he's in the same state as before you did that to him. Common sense doesn't get to decide he's in a sealed container in Greenland just because someone sealed him into it, he decides he's in Hawaii on the beach.

In short, he's completely composed of his own thoughts and perception, as demonstrated when his inability to perceive himself causes him to not be physically present at all until he regains that ability. He literally decides how he exists, where he exists, and what state of health he exists in. Clearly a being composed of his own thoughts. Alucard absorbed that being through his blood. So clearly that strange information was all stored in the blood (or at very least absorbed via it) and so was the nature which allowed him to control his own state of being. That seems like clear information manipulation to me. Don't know if it's concept, although I seem to recall it was a non-fundamental concept controlling only Schrodinger's own state of being and nothing else.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The issue is that y'all are taking two established facts (Schrodinger is made of and dictated by his thoughts, and Alucard can absorb those thoughts) and drawing a completely unrelated conclusion (Alucard absorbed fundamental information that controls reality).

Or to put it even more simply, thoughts =/= type 2 info.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

thoughts can also be information
information being a fundamental building block of reality can be, concept, soul, mind, physical etc.

there is a reason why Slime Tensei gets info type 2 because Their soul and abilities etc are all made of the information.
how does it being a thought disqualify it as information type 2?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agree with removal of concept

 

[Deceived3596]

Do we have actual statements about these thoughts constituting this dude's informational reality? or is the argument that we can deduce such from indirect statements and knowledge about the character's existence.

thoughts can also be information
information being a fundamental building block of reality can be, concept, soul, mind, physical etc.

there is a reason why Slime Tensei gets info type 2 because Their soul and abilities etc are all made of the information.
how does it being a thought disqualify it as information type 2?

I don't believe she means that thoughts can't be considered as being Type 2 Information, regardless of context. My interpretation is that she believes just being construction of thoughts and personal perceptions wouldn't be cause for it being considered as fundamental information which constitutes one's reality. She's just asking for more direct evidence that these things are considered as Schrodinger's fundamental information, rather than connective implications that she believes are fallaciously connected.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The issue is that y'all are taking two established facts (Schrodinger is made of and dictated by his thoughts, and Alucard can absorb those thoughts) and drawing a completely unrelated conclusion (Alucard absorbed fundamental information that controls reality).

Or to put it even more simply, thoughts =/= type 2 info.

Schrodinger's thoughts definitely control his own reality, just nothing beyond that.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

@LordGinSama


Yeah no you started off this thread by making a baseless accusation on Fuji being condescending when all she's doing is questioning the reasoning in the pages. I've seen Fuji make similar CRTs in the past, it's not condescending to question the arguments, so stop with this "I stopped being rude a while ago" remarks when it's clear as day you haven't been acting your best here.

@Elizhaa @Duedate8898 @Firestorm808 @Just_a_Random_Butler @Planck69 Can any of you give any inputs in this thread?

I'll have to pass. I still have other things in the wiki that I need to do.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Schrodinger's thoughts definitely control his own reality, just nothing beyond that.

The problem is that using thoughts to control reality doesn't mean those thoughts are fundamental information in and of themselves. Otherwise, using mindhax on any subjective reality user would also count as type 2 info hax.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama


Yeah no you started off this thread by making a baseless accusation on Fuji being condescending when all she's doing is questioning the reasoning in the pages. I've seen Fuji make similar CRTs in the past, it's not condescending to question the arguments, so stop with this "I stopped being rude a while ago" remarks when it's clear as day you haven't been acting your best here.

I wasn't going to come back to this till you tagged me in this for utterly no reason other than to obviously attempt to push me around with your authority and falsely at that. I haven't made a singular accusation against Fujiwara, I did however make a statement that she was being needlessly aggressive with her replies and others can agree with that.



"It's not condescending to question argument." Thanks for that information captain obvious. There's something called a tone and attitude which can change things, so your obviously ignoring that aspect or you haven't been in enough IRL conversations to pick up on that. Asking for evidence is fine, but if your acting hostile and disrespectful then I have no reason to reply.


So yeah, dont sit here acting as if i'm the one in the wrong and as if Fujiwara hasn't done anything.



Quote me showing worse behavior than Fujiwara. Again, just because you're a staff member doesn't mean you can go around acting with bias whilst ignoring behavior from both sides.


***** the equivalent of me calling a cop over a robbery and then the cop arresting me for being "rude about it"

Final reply here, don't tag me again either. I don't care about the CRT but I'm also not gonna let you slander me because you're a staff member.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I haven't made a singular accusation against Fujiwara, staff member.

World's most technically correct statement (you made 2 actually lol)

Literally my guy isn't even using the official scans lmfao. Like you do realize you using poor quality scans, one of which is in another language which you haven't even provided a translation for should speak magnitudes of the OP's knowledge on the verse.

I'll reply to this load of shit tomorrow. I'm quite busy right now but I very much don't appreciate the smug, condescending tone of the OP whilst also providing blatant misinformation which I'll address later.

 

[LordGinSama]

First one was my mistake as I thought you were Phss for a moment so that I'll apologize for respectfully.


The second thing isn't an accusation, it's a fact. Now whither you meant to spread misinformation or not that's still spreading misinformation at the end of the day.


Had you just been more respectful and up front then I would have provided evidence rather than not wanting to interact with you all together. I'm still a human at the end of the day and deserve some form of respect rather than just "okay now shut the **** up and post the evidence lol."

 

[Random-Helper323]

The problem is that using thoughts to control reality doesn't mean those thoughts are fundamental information in and of themselves. Otherwise, using mindhax on any subjective reality user would also count as type 2 info hax.

I don't know about fundamental concepts, but Schrodinger is clearly composed of thoughts, and is therefore essentially abstract information, and Alucard absorbed him. So there is seemingly some information manipulation there.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Random-Helper323 thoughts aren’t literal information that’s the building blocks of reality though. At best that’s mind manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, we never treat thoughts as information for the purposes of info hax. Otherwise every mind manipu user would have informantion manip too lol

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Mind Manipulation can't manipulate reality or makes up for building blocks of reality

Using Analogy for this situation as mind manipulation is just Wrong.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mind Manipulation can't manipulate reality or makes up for building blocks of reality

Using Analogy for this situation as mind manipulation is just Wrong.

Neither can a person's thoughts.

Schrodinger's thoughts dictating reality are what we call "subjective reality". This is not proof of thoughts being fundamental information, do you understand that?

 

[LordGinSama]

Schrodinger is about as fundamental as you can get. This isn't simply "he's exist as thoughts." but more so, he covers that on an abstract and possibly universal scale. With his ability of Self observation, he's capable of making himself nonexistent, capable of dimensional travel arguably on a universal level, subject reality and quantum manipulation.



He isn't just "composed of his own thoughts." he is the literal abstraction of thoughts.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Neither can a person's thoughts.

Schrodinger's thoughts dictating reality are what we call "subjective reality". This is not proof of thoughts being fundamental information, do you understand that?

Despite my disagreement with CM.

It always seemed very sus to me the info hax type 2 of the cat.

It is not even said in the literal that "He is made of information"

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Neither can a person's thoughts.

Schrodinger's thoughts dictating reality are what we call "subjective reality". This is not proof of thoughts being fundamental information, do you understand that?

There is a thing called Abstract Existence. Yes thoughts can form building blocks of reality for characters. Check Abstract Existence page if you still don't get what I meant.

It is not even said in the literal that "He is made of information"

Not all needs to be written in battle boarding terms when comes to scaling. Not all writers are obsessed with Powerscaling.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Not all needs to be written in battle boarding terms when comes to scaling. Not all writers are obsessed with Powerscaling.

I'm not talking about that.

Also, with thoughts it's the same thing, I've never seen something like "he's made of thoughts" said

It always was, as long as he recognizes its existence it exists and blah blah blah

EDIT: Only if you go some ways to see it like it appears in memories or still have a "mind" even all exploded. but I've always seen type 2 hax info only be achieved with more direct stuff. I could be wrong

 

[LordGinSama]

Schrodinger doesn't just effect himself, his self observation is applicable to the world.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not talking about that.

Also, with thoughts it's the same thing, I've never seen something like "he's made of thoughts" said

It always was, as long as he recognizes its existence it exists and blah blah blah

Yes, the whole "he's made of thoughts/information" thing is unsupported (and is honestly a little weird considering he has blood like a physical being and never really displays incorporeal traits).

It's a difficult thing to even tackle, because how do you even argue against someone saying something that explicitly isn't true?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Schrodinger doesn't just effect himself, his self observation is applicable to the world.

Where does the scan say his observation also affects the world?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's a difficult thing to even tackle, because how do you even argue against someone saying something that explicitly isn't true?

?

Are you talking about the CM? Why do I think it's true?

Also "explicitly" is a very presumptuous thing to say.

There are hundreds of Downgrades or Upgrades out there that there are hundreds of people who say that this is "explicitly not true" and it still happens.

Everything in the end is a matter of disagreeing or agreeing.

LordGin is the exact opposite in the sense of also saying "all you're saying is blah blah blah"

Just because you think it's explicitly fake doesn't mean it's for everyone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

?

Are you talking about the CM? Why do I think it's true?

Also "explicitly" is a very presumptuous thing to say.

There are hundreds of Downgrades or Upgrades out there that there are hundreds of people who say that this is "explicitly not true" and it still happens.

Everything in the end is a matter of disagreeing or agreeing.

LordGin is the exact opposite in the sense of also saying "all you're saying is blah blah blah"

Just because you think it's explicitly fake doesn't mean it's for everyone.

I was talking about the info hax, not CM. I only say something is explicitly not true when the words people claim are in the text (Schrodinger is literally composed of thoughts/information) simply... aren't there.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I was talking about the info hax, not CM. I only say something is explicitly not true when the words people claim are in the text (Schrodinger is literally composed of thoughts/information) simply... aren't there.

Oh, okay.

 

[LordGinSama]

Where does the scan say his observation also affects the world?

"He's a cheshire cat who jumps around in a world where the probability of existence itself isn't equivocal."


He is everywhere and nowhere, being able to manifest anything in the world as long as that's what he wants.

Same dude who can interact and effect fake illusions and even the border of the manga itself. Essentially what Schrodinger is the Abstractions of thoughts, which grants him things like Subjective Reality and Quantum manipulation to effect the world for tasks such as Teleportating, ignoring distance and even reaching to places that don't exist, to touching manga panels.

Schrodinger influences the world with his powers.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"He's a cheshire cat who jumps around in a world where the probability of existence itself isn't equivocal."

Lemme stop you right there.

It says Schrodinger "jumps around in a world". That is referring to movement. It is not saying he does anything to the word, or that he warps reality, or literally anything of note. If I say "I'm walking down the street", does that mean I'm altering the fundamental metaphysical nature of the street? ******* of course not.

Everything else you've mentioned is just omnipresence/multilocation/immersion, which anyone can do without altering the fundamental nature of reality.

 

[LordGinSama]

Lemme stop you right there.

Nah I'm going to continue since your wrong.

It says Schrodinger "jumps around in a world". That is referring to movement.

Outright false, Schrodinger doesn't require movement. He thinks and he's automatically there, no movement is required.

It is not saying he does anything to the word, or that he warps reality, or literally anything of note. If I say "I'm walking down the street", does that mean I'm altering the fundamental metaphysical nature of the street? ******* of course not.

That's a comparison that's best compared to a a pile of dog shit left in the summer sun. Are you really attempting to compare physical travel to Teleportation done by thinking? Yeah real accurate comparison there.


The self observation ability is Subjective Reality manipulation, which effects Reality. As long as he's aware of his actions he can do anything he wishes, I.E Reality warping.

Everything else you've mentioned is just omnipresence/multilocation/immersion, which anyone can do without altering the fundamental nature of reality.

All of those things literally effect Reality outside of mutli location which this isn't. Schrodinger doesn't exist in multiple places at once so that argument doesn't even work.

 

[Theglassman12]

Schrodinger is about as fundamental as you can get. This isn't simply "he's exist as thoughts." but more so, he covers that on an abstract and possibly universal scale. With his ability of Self observation, he's capable of making himself nonexistent, capable of dimensional travel arguably on a universal level, subject reality and quantum manipulation.



He isn't just "composed of his own thoughts." he is the literal abstraction of thoughts.

Him being the abstraction of thoughts still doesn’t give type 2 information hax because they’re fundamentally not the same by our standards. You need to prove that thoughts = type 2 Info in the series.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Outright false, Schrodinger doesn't require movement. He thinks and he's automatically there, no movement is required.

That's a comparison that's best compared to a a pile of dog shit left in the summer sun. Are you really attempting to compare physical travel to Teleportation done by thinking? Yeah real accurate comparison there.

Oh, lemme fix it rq

If I say "I'm teleporting down the street", does that mean I'm altering the fundamental metaphysical nature of the street? ******* of course not.

The self observation ability is Subjective Reality manipulation, which effects Reality. As long as he's aware of his actions he can do anything he wishes, I.E Reality warping.

Not only is the "do anything he wishes" part never actually stated or shown (lol), that's just SI. Should everyone in this list (all 530 of em) get type 2 info hax because their thoughts shape reality?

All of those things literally effect Reality outside of mutli location which this isn't. Schrodinger doesn't exist in multiple places at once so that argument doesn't even work.

no they don't lol, who the hell told you that

 

[LordGinSama]

Also this argument of "but he didn't effect the very fundamental building blocks of reality." is utterly moot whenever you take the time to actually read the Information Manipulation page for more than 1 nanosecond.



2: Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

1. Him being the abstraction of thoughts still doesn’t give type 2 information hax because they’re fundamentally not the same by our standards. You need to prove that thoughts = type 2 Info in the series.

   I'm gonna ask that you learn how to take your time when reading because I never said it came from being thoughts but rather his self observation which effects the world, allowing for Teleportating and subjective reality.

 

[Crabwhale]

Could you guys give me like three seconds to catch up to the thread

 

[LordGinSama]

Okay so like your gonna ignore the "without physically occupying the space." the term "move" there is blatantly contextual different than the usage your trying to use here. This is basic english.

Oh, lemme fix it rq

Doesn't change my argument.

Not only is the "do anything he wishes" part never actually stated or shown (lol), that's just SI. Should everyone in this list (all 530 of em) get type 2 info hax because their thoughts shape reality?

Schrodinger use of self observation allows him to choose the state of his existence, where he is, if he's dead or alive, everywhere and nowhere all based on what he thinks.


It doesn't need to be directly stated like that, otherwise 99% of the character with said abilities would lose them.

no they don't lol, who the hell told you that

The ******* wiki pages? Omnipresence is literally existing everywhere within the world at once, essentially becoming one with it's space-time.

Subjective Reality is the power that allows the user to manipulate the boundary between reality and unreality. It allows the user to induce reality to what is fiction, fantasy or imaginary, bringing them into existence, as well as turning facts, entities and events into unreality, vanishing them as if they were a mere dream or illusion



Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc. The places and time periods accessed through this ability are conceptual, as in they do not exist in reality, but users of this ability can still interact with and explore them like they can any place in the real world.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay so like your gonna ignore the "without physically occupying the space." the term "move" there is blatantly contextual different than the usage your trying to use here. This is basic english.

Never said anything about physically occupying space though, did I? The point is that Schrodinger simply leaps from point A to point B (or to both at the same time, or neither), so the Major is talking about that and not him ******* with the fundamentals of point A and point B. He simply is or isn't in a location, he isn't doing anything to the location.

Doesn't change my argument.

It does, because your only point of contention was that it was comparing physical movement to teleportation. But if they're both teleportation, then there isn't a problem, is there?

Schrodinger use of self observation allows him to choose the state of his existence, where he is, if he's dead or alive, everywhere and nowhere all based on what he thinks.

Cool

That also applies to pretty much everyone on the SI list, so do they also get info hax? Don't go deflecting the question again.

The ******* wiki pages? Omnipresence is literally existing everywhere within the world at once, essentially becoming one with it's space-time.

Subjective Reality is the power that allows the user to manipulate the boundary between reality and unreality. It allows the user to induce reality to what is fiction, fantasy or imaginary, bringing them into existence, as well as turning facts, entities and events into unreality, vanishing them as if they were a mere dream or illusion

Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc. The places and time periods accessed through this ability are conceptual, as in they do not exist in reality, but users of this ability can still interact with and explore them like they can any place in the real world.

I never said SI didn't impact reality, I said that Omnipresence, Multilocation, and Immersion don't impact reality.

And they don't because omnipresence is just the ability to exist everywhere (which does not imply you are manipulating any part of the space you occupy), and immersion is just existing inside dreams, stories, or illusions (which does not mean you can manipulate or alter those dreams, stories, or illusions).

Let me ask you this, and I want you to give me a Yes or No answer because I'm tired of you dodging basic questions. I occupy the space I live in; Does that mean that I am manipulating that space?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Could you guys give me like three seconds to catch up to the thread

So much for 3 seconds smh