Big Bad Wolf Comes To Upgrade Yume Nikki

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHA

So I need a big, fat, utterly dummy thicc revision of most of the Yume Nikki Games. This includes Yume 2kki, .flow, Yume Nisshi, LcdDem, Yume Graffiti, Answered Prayers and Yuque. This will revise the physical stats as well as revise keys.

The Dream Layers
I'm bringing this up again. Yes.

Basically, a bunch of the games have more dream layers than just one. Both above and below the two main layers. Now while we already accept the whole Tier 2 via dying thing, this doesn't acknowledge the multiple dream layers thing. It treats many layers as just being Low 2-C, as well as treating seeing multiple universes as dreams to be just 2-C. So in accordance with Reality Equalizatio, I'd like to fix this.

First off: what layers get keys. Basically, all of them do. For example, Madotsuki gets a key for her In-Dream key, but also for her real world key and her real-real world key that exists beyond the original real world. This also includes games like Yume 2kki, which features dreams beneath the original dream world.

Secondly, will they be Reality Equalized? What tiers will those be? Well, the answer to the form is yes. All of the layers will be treated as if they're baseline reality, the same way we do now. Thus, the Dream key is 4-A/5-A/whatever, the real world key is 10-B, etc. The only exception are the lower dream keys. These will be treated as Tier 11, mostly due to avoid tier inflations as shown above.

Thirdly, the "waking up" keys. This is where the big changes occur. Basically, each "wake up" tier of each layer will take into account the dream layers above. While the physical stats for those dream layers aren't important enough to have full on Tier 2/1 physical stats, the interaction of "waking up" is. For example, someone with 2 dream layers above them will have a "Low 2-C to Low 1-C" waking up stat, taking into account waking up once, then twice.

Note that this is also why we do not give a Tier 10 key for the lower dream layers, as the waking up key would be dramatically higher when it's not warranted.

So let's see what should be changed regarding that:

Yume Nikki
While there is a dream-within-a-dream in Yume Nikki, it's physically connected to the rest of the Dream World so it's not a lower layer of reality, unfortunately.

For the rest. There exist three layers of reality in Yume Nikki. The Dream Layer. The Real World layer. And the Dream Diary Real World layer.

The key for Dream Madotsuki would get "Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C to Low 1-C via waking up". This is one hell of a complex tier. But basically, the first dream layer is either Low 2-C or Low 1-C, depending if the dream world is one or many universes. If it's one, then Madotsuki transcends a 3-D universe and is thus Low 2-C. If it's many, then Madotsuki transcends the space-time of many universes, so Low 1-C. Her maximum tier is Low 1-C either way, it's just either one layer above Low 2-C or two layers. Meanwhile the real world key for Madotsuki just gets Low 2-C, due to Dream Diary's real world being above it.

The Jellyfish would also become fully Low 1-C due to this.

Now Dream Diary is a bit different. The real world Madotsuki is a simple 10-B, no dream worlds above it. Now technically the dream world of that game would be above the dream world of the old one, it would get reality equalized anyway. And it would get "Low 2-C via waking up", since it has no confirmed multiple worlds.

Now for the Manga. Sigh. What a ******* mess. But I think I got it figured out. First off, the "In my room" key would probably need to be removed. At best the diary could be an optional item, but eh. This is due to the fact that "My Room" most likely than not exists on the same plane of reality as the dream world. So no high tier based on existing here. This also gives limited duplication to Masada and Madotsuki. However, there IS a real world beyond "My Room". Only one though. So with the same reasoning as before, Madotsuki would gain Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C via waking up".

And now the Novel. I already have the cosmology figured out for this one, we just need to update it. Madotsuki's keys remain the same except for the waking up tiers, which become "Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C via waking up", due to previous reasons again. Now Poniko's a bit more interesting. She doesn't exist in the layer of reality above the dream world. She never wakes up into it, she just shows up in the TV. But she does exist in the layer right above this one, as well as the one above this one. So for her dream self, there is essentially three layers of reality, but she starts at the 2nd. So her waking key would be "Low 1-C to possibly 1-C via waking up" for the dream world. Meanwhile her 1st real world key would just have "Low 2-C via waking up".

Yume 2kki
So Yume 2kki has only one canon but it's one hell of a canon. Yume 2kki has not 3, but six levels of reality. There is the truest real world, the black void, the "real world", the dream world, the dream-in-dream and the dream-in-dream-in-dream. So as always, Urotsuki gets a key for each layer.

Truest real world Urotsuki gets nothing. A simple 10-B.

Black Void Urotsuki gets "Low 2-C via waking up" due to the dream layer above it.

Real World Urotsuki gets "Low 2-C to Low 1-C via waking up" due to the two dream layers above her. Also she'd get a 2nd real world key for her Doll incarnation, which is just 10-C.

Dream World Urotsuki gets "Low 1-C to 1-C via waking up" due to the presence of multiple space-times in the dream world, and due to two more layers after that.

Now the lower layers are a bit special. They're treated as Tier 11 because 1. Doing otherwise would lead to ridiculously high Tier 1 stuff 2. They're treated as linked yet still separate from the rest of the dream world, not completely independent.

So Urotsuki gets a 11-A key for the first dream-in-dream layer and "10-C to 1-C via waking up". And she also gets a 11-B key for the second dream-in-dream layer, alongside a "11-A to 1-C via waking up".

The Rotten Eggs would gain Low 1-C durability due to this.

.flow
Nothing crazy here, but Sabitsuki should probably gain a "possibly Low 2-C via waking up" for the same reasons as other dreamers. While it is a virtual world, it is a virtual world that is very similar to dreams, including an explicit waking up option. It's still vague, hence a mere "possibly".

LcdDem, Yuque, Yume Graffiti
All of those feature dreams-in-dreams. It's the same for all of them, so they'd all get a "11-A, 10-C to Low 2-C via waking up".

Me
Me. Basically, I do think I'm starting to believe that Me has many universes inside its dream world. It has many, many different dream worlds with stars and individual cosmologies and with different styles, showing they're different and not just different views of the same world.

This, combined with the same logic as .flow above (meaning, giving her wake up keys on grounds of her "virtual world" being extremely similar to a dream), would give Me a "Low 1-C via waking up".

She would also gain a 11-A key, as she can exist within the virtual world of her computer.

Physical Stats
So basically I calced tons of stuff for these verses. The blog hasn't been evaluated yet, but I hope this thread will give attention to it.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Saikou_The_Lewd_King/Big_YN_Calc_Collectio

Yume Nikki
So first of all 4-A needs to go. The reasoning, scaling the Windmill World to the Pink Sea, is quite a stretch so I'd rather keep it out. Instead, we will use a now calced version of the 5-A end and a new feat.

The 5-A feat has been calced as High 5-A on the blog. Madotsuki should scale to it, but on a lower scale.

And then there is an illumination feat. Madotsuki lights up the sky hard enough to color distant stars. The calc ended up being Low 4-C. As all of the energy used for this had to go through Madotsuki's body, it should scale to her durability and thus her AP.

The storm was calced at 5-C. It's lower than her physical stats but I want to include it too because why not.

In term of speed, her subsonic speed was calced at Subsonic. Woo. So Madotsuki becomes "Likely High 5-A to Low 4-C. 5-C through environmental destruction". With "Subsonic movement speed, FTL reaction and combat speed".

As a side note, the Guillotine NPC can indirectly behead Madotsuki, as it gives her the ability to behead herself. So it should probably physically scale to her durability and thus, should the other effect NPCs. Now for some other NPCs:

Aztec Rave Monkey got his size calced, making him 7-C, Supersonic and giving him Class M lifting strength.

Big Red gains FTL+ speed and Pre-Stellar lifting strength.

Bloody Touching Monster got his size calced, he's staying at High 8-C and gaining Class M lifting strength and Subsonic+ speed.

KyuuKyuu-ku gains Class 5 lifting strength.

Mars-sa gains Class 5 lifting strength.

Roary Straw gains Class 10 lifting strength.

Takofuuse gains Class 10 lifting strength.

The Thing with the Quivering Jaw becomes Wall level+.

Yume 2kki
So same as with Big Red, Tapir-san's feats were calced, with a new added end.

The 5-A end becomes High 5-A.

A new 4-B end.

And the 4-A end becomes 3-B. Gee.

The two Massively FTL+ feats were also calced. And they gave Massively FTL+. Woo. Also we should get rid of Sub-Relativistic, it's an unnecessary low-end.

And the storm was calced at 4-B.

So I'd probably go "High 5-A, likely 4-B to 3-B. 4-B via environmental destruction". With just Massively FTL+ speed.

Tapir-sa gains Pre-Stellar, Multi-Stellar and Universal lifting strength.

Smile-sa gains Wall level+ and Class 25 lifting strength.

Colossus (no profile yet) would get Class M lifting strength.

Parasite stays Building level and gains Class K lifting strength.

.flow
Sabitsuki's three wall level feats were calced and gave Wall level. Terrifying.

Her storm was also calced at Large Town level.

Yume Nisshi
Usotsuki's storm was calced at Large Planet level.

Yume Graffiti
Yomika's door busting feat actually gave a solid Room level, so that's where she will stay at.

Her speed feat has also been calced at Subsonic instead of Superhuman. So there's that.

And finally her storm was calced at Town level. So it stays there.

LcdDem
Her wall level feat has been calced to be Wall level. Woo.

Answered Prayers
So unfortunately 8-C will have to go. it's based on a reality warping feat that is most likely just teleportation. So instead I calced a cog-destroying feat. WHich ended up being Wall level.

Fluorette's feat of making the sky be monochrome is the same one as Madotsuki, so she gets Low 4-C environmental destruction.

Yuque
Now Nire gets some juicy upgrade. The storm of ashe she creates has special properties compared to other storms. Most importantly, it comes directly from her body. Her ash body decomposes as the storm becomes more powerful. This means that the storm uses KE, is applicable to her speed and applicable to her physical AP.

And said storm was calced at Island level with Supersonic+ speed. And so, both of those applies to Nire directly.

Others
So a few additional stuff. First off, pretty much all of the protagonist of those games (Except for Fluorette and Amari) should gain Reality Warping, Dream Manipulation (Except for Sabitsuki and Me) and Creation. This is for the same reasons as Amari. As the Dream World is their dream, what happens in it is mostly decided by the dreamer's mind. The most direct application of this is the fact that changes to the dream world will be usually undone. This includes NPCs dying, but also entire changes to the environment and entire events. This is mostly not combat applicable.

However this also gives those with Type 8 Immortality based on the dreamers the ability to "heal" from non-lethal damage and basically most changes. Basically they're constantly reality warped back into their default state. This is not exactly an ability, just an extension of their Type 8.

Conclusion
So uh, no way to resume it easily but:

-Bunch of Yumes gets Tier 1 due to stacking many dreams instead of one

-Also a bunch of Yumes gets Tier 11 due to stacking many dreams but beneath the main one

-Bunch of feats are calced now and results in some physical stats changes

-Reality Warping for a bunch of them too

no

Shut up

Five words:

No

I don't even know what this verse is, but no.

Definitely not. Close this thread. Wank.

Y'all evil

Bump

Also idiot me forgot the most important and controversial upgrade:

Urotsuki gets Creation due to being able to create platforms as well as a clarification on her profile that she can solidify light into a physical form.

Heretical blasphemer.

Ikr

Time for a less jokey reply~

Dream Layers
Considering the link you posted to Reality Equalizatio cites Yume Nikki as a valid example, it would be a little awkward if this CRT doesn't pass. Of course, we have to look into why it is a valid example, and due to the games heavily focusing on dreams/something analogous to dreams, I think your proposal makes a lot of sense. I also think lower dream layers being treated as indeed lower dream layers is a good thing, as they're only seen in a couple of worlds. My only concern is how will this effect Seccom Masada-sensei, who is found when Madotsuki dreams within her dream. What will happen to his tier? [Note: You can just ignore that question, see below]

Yume Nikki
Ah, I guess you answered my question there. "Low 2-C, possiby Low 1-C to Low 1-C" sounds really silly on paper, but when you consider it's accounting for first and second awakening, then I guess it becomes clear as to why it's worded so oddly, and is fine. The reasoning for this and real world Mado's Low 2-C both sound fair to me. However, didn't the jellyfish get downgraded in a semi-recent CRT? I feel as though you're going to need more than that to upgrade them again, so I can't quite support the upgrade with the vague reasoning given thus far...

Dream Diary
Hmm, all seems fine, pretty straightfowards.

Manga
What a mess~ I don't really know about the manga, so all this is confusing, but I can get a vague idea from context supplied by the game. Seems reasonable.

Novel
Wah! 1-C Poniko! Hmm, I'm still a little new to reality equalisation, but I recall you mentioning that Low 1-C can't just be transcended easily?? How did she make the jump to 1-C, or am I just misremembering?

Yume 2kki
Mostly fine. Same question for Dream World Urotsuki as Poniko above. Also, a 11-B with access to 1-C? Eesh...

.flow
How possible! Hmm, yeah, seems fine, virtual worlds are just as equalisable a reality as dreams are, so I'd give it the all clear.

the trio
Seems fine

Me
Confusing stuff... I feel like I'd need to know more about the game to approve of this stuff, as allowing Low 1-C based on faith of a theory with the only proof being "trust me, there are hints that I'll vaguely cover" seems to fall short when put up against extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence. And, if you ask me, tier 1 is pretty extraordinary. With that said, since it's just carrying the same logic as before, it's probably fine as long as it's backed up, I suppose.

I'll spit this response into two parts because this is a very long CRT, and we're moving on to a new topic, so seems like a good place to leave things off for now.

tl;dr most stuff is fine, a few queries here and there but mainly from my lack of understanding. Jellyfish and Me's reasonings seem quite vague, so I feel like I can't agree with them, but should elaborate be given, there isn't anything wrong with them otherwise.

See you bunch of psychopaths this is how you answer a thread.


The Jellyfish didn't get "downgraded". I just made it so that the profile acknowledged that the real world they're in is still a dream world, giving them Immortality back. So it's more of an upgrade. The Jellyfish still exists outside of the main Dream World and into the "real world" above. So Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C is fine for them.

The first real world is Low 1-C due to transcending the multiple universes of the base dream world. Then the second real world is Low 1-C but on the higher end, due to transcending the base Low 1-C real world. And the final real world is 1-C due to transcending the high end Low 1-C real world. To use the oudated dimensional terms, Low 2-C = 4-D, Low 1-C = 5-D and 6-D, 1-C = 7-D. Poniko just reaches 1-C via dream spam.

Urotsuki has the same logic. Basic real world is Low 1-C due to being above the many universes of the dream world, the Dark World is high end Low 1-C due to being above the basic real world and the true real world is 1-C due to being above even the Dark World.

It's not a matter of equalization. Sabitsuki's already equalized, it's fine. The issue is that we can't go "Low 2-C via waking up" for something that isn't a dream. However I'm arguing that Sabitsuki's virtual world is similar enough to a dream for this to be allowed.

It's not complicated. I'm just saying that Me's Dream World has many universes like Yume Nikki's or Yume 2kki's, meaning that transcending it is Low 1-C instead of Low 2-C. And I'm saying this is the case due to many different worlds possessing extensive yet different cosmology. Meaning that these worlds can't be in the same space. Or at least that it's highly unlikely to be the case.

Okay, time for Part 2: Dreaming Tendancy. Let's start with the replies.

Replies

Jellyfish
Okay, that makes sense. I only vaguely remembered something going on with them, so wanted to make sure it wasn't being overlooked. Their rating seems fine, then.

Poniko and Urotsuki
Ah, thanks for the explanation. I thought that anology with dimensions might come into play, so yeah, now we're on the same page I think this works well too.

Sabitsuki
Ah, my bad. I think your reasoning is still fair though, so I still agree with her upgrade.

Me
I guess you were never one for scans, so that's kind of why I saw it as solely going off your word. But if it's really just as basic as that, and I'm pretty sure I've seen arguments similar to this pass before, then it should be fine :3

Physical Stats
Okay, obviously going through these one-by-one is going to be not only tiresome, but a little redundant. The results seem fine, but I think we should wait for evaluation on the calculations before giving it the all-clear, for obvious reasons. But when that happens, I have no objections. Interesing of note, the Yume Nikki downgrade to 5-A seems to be using something more accurate now, so that's nice.

Others
Erm... this one is a tad weird. The type 8 immortality kind of explains why everyone comes back already, and I'm not too sure what you mean by affecting entire environments. You can't quite control your dreams unless you're lucid, so I don't think abilities like this should be given by default?? I guess the fact the dream is always the same (excluding minor changed in the form of easter eggs, etc) would help make this case, but I don't quite see eye-to-eye with it? I'm probably missing something obvious here, but I don't quite think that's what they're up to.

Urotsuki's Creation and light solidifcatio
How controversial! Truly worthy of a "No"... just kidding~ Hmm, I recall you mentioning a few more things relating to this before, but if these are the only notable two abilities, then it should be fine. I assume solidifying light refers to the rainbow bridges? Is this Light Manipulation, or is it unable to be categorised? But yeah, overall seems fine.

And that's why my final rating: Is a "Nice CRT"/10

I already said that it's subconscious control. Even when not lucid you still subconsciously control your dream world.

My point is that this explains the fact that stuff in the Dream world stays the same and that NPCs keep coming back, as it's the only consistant way this applies.

The Type 8 is already an example of that, I'm just expanding on it.

reee bump

Okay, looking into it, the Reality Warping and Dream Manipulation for the dreamers, and the extension of Type 8 for NPCs seem fine.

Wasn't the dream stuff rejected last time? What are the new arguments?

It was rejected for not super good reasons. Plus our new rules for Reality Equalization does give me more ground to argue.

The arguments were IIRC vagueness (which doesn't apply at all to Yume 2kki, but even then isn't enough to debunk Yume Nikki) and the fact that it's "just a girl dreaming". The latter of which...isn't really a good argument.

If we do take the dream of the characters as our baseline and thus treating it as real for the sake of the profile, then we have no reasons to not acknowledge the higher dreams and to ignore their effects on the baseline dream.

If it's literally just a normal character dreaming, without being treated as some sort of transcendental entity, I don't think it'd be a good idea to rate it as anything just because the characters inside the dream technically perceive themselves as real and concrete beings.

Aren't like a ton of these fan games of a fan game.

I'm pretty certain all of these are tributes to the OG Yume Nikki. Whilst some are popular enough to earn fangames, like 3D 2kki, that doesn't apply to any of the ones on this wiki.

@Kep

It's why I don't want to give them a full Tier 1 physical key. Hell it's on the rules for Reality Equalization too. So the higher dreams only get physically Tier 10 stats.

However, the interactions of the higher dreams with the lower dreams is still something that exists and should be rated accordingly. So the smurfy hax of immortality and such is what is Tier 1.

Also yeah what Alice said.

All of those games are technically "fangames" of the original Yume Nikki, but they all take place in their own universe and continuity so it's fine.

bump

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Also yeah what Alice said.
All of those games are technically "fangames" of the original Yume Nikki, but they all take place in their own universe and continuity so it's fine.

Click to expand...

Saikou trying to put his own work on VSBW.

What kind of heresy is this shit?

Endless bump

I should put up a new calc tonight btw

It shouldn't be listed as a valid example.

Wasn't Low 1-C Minecraft via steam stacking rejected

Tier 1 Minecraft was rejected because of the statements themselves being vague. Like I said it's another can of worms entirely.

And Matt I have no idea what you're talking about

Gimme a B, gimme a U, gimme a M, gimme a P.

Gimme a punch to my left ball but do something

I think the dreams qualifying for reality transcendence is still being contested.

Idk why that is.

Dreams are just fancy fiction. And pretty sure we generally accept fiction and such as reality transcendance unless contradicted or anything like that.

No.

**** you witch bump time

El Bumpo.

[Insert bump]