MASSIVE Nasuverse Scaling and Tier Revision (Yes, we're doing this all over again)

So, basically, bunch of Nasu characters scale to this. Barely so downscale. Problem is, the scaling barely makes sense. Not downscale part, not at all, the ends, tiers, numbers and the multipliers are the problem.

The main problem is 7-A. The accepted end is vape. Why do we have 7-A? Because of pulverization? That wasn't the end that was accepted. Because it was barely scaled? Even if we get the highest 7-A AP, 999 Megatons, is still hundreds of times lower than the shot. That's way, way too low. Because we have more 7-A statements? We just sets to the highest possible tier for a character to the profile, even when there are many lower tiered feats, if there is a higher tiered feats of strength that aren't considered an outlier than that will be the one we'll get. We do that to a lot of verses (Guilty Gear has lots of tier 6 but they're at 3-A, Tekken has bunch of tier 8 feats but they're 7-B, BlazBlue has many tier 7 even by God tiers but they're 5-A, Kengan has many tier 9 feats but they're 8-C+, Baki also has a lots of tier 9 feats but they're 7-C). Comparing Nasu to these verses might raise an eyebrow but what I'm saying is that the highest non-outlier tier should be prioritized and adding bunch of lower tiers just because they're many is off-putting and confusing to say the least.

And also we have the NPs. Oh, the NPs. 6-C NPs just say screams why by the current scaling. Having one tier alone makes no sense, we have two different tiers. And it mainly comes from Caliburn killing Herc 7 times. That means 7 times his durability considering how God Hand works, the problem is it's like High 6-C so that doesn't make sense either. Also I know there are servant NPs that is 6-C scaling to Crane Wings like Gareth and Vlad and it's cursed. NP scaling extends to Phantasmal Beasts so that needs fixing too.

So these are my opinions for the tier:

Normal Servant Power
Downscaling from 124 Gigatons. Let's divide it by 5. It is a fair enough assumption, that is the point where a normal human is getting hit by objects that can hurt them critically.

24.86 Gigatons. This is Gawain's Durability. 6-C. Let's be real here, Servant Ranks when it comes to strength is pure bull so except for really weak E-ranks, everyone scales.

This scales to Mantra Boosts and Dead Apostles as well, of course. This also scales to C-rank NP and above.

All A-Rank NPs and B+-Rank Anti-Army Noble Phantasms should be At least 6-C for Durindana piercing through both Asterios and Herc at once.

Arondight and NotS Gawai
Numeral of the Saints Gawain should scale to Arondight. With Arondight, Lancelot was able to fight NS Gawain to a standstill. So we should scale it to him.

Multiplier to three and it will be 74.58 Gigatons. 6-C+. This is NotS Gawain's tier. Btw, I think only Saberlot should scale to this, not Zerklot since Zerklot has an anti-feat in F/Z.

A+-Rank Anti-Army Noble Phantasm
This scales to Caliburn which is 7 times Herc's Dura. So just multiplier to 7.

174.02 Gigatons. High 6-C. Scales to any of this NPs and the ones that are shown to scale to it. The ones that are scaled are:

• Siegfried's Balmung
• Mordred's Clarent Blood Arthur
• Medusa's Bellophoron
• All Phantasmal Beasts, including the ones from Dead Apostles
• Karna and Rama's Brahmastra
• Fergus' Caladbolg
• Arturia's Excalibur
• MHX Alter's Cross-Calibur
• Spartacus' Self-destruction
• Angelica, Ko-Gil and Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish and Merodach
• Summer Jeanne's Des Océans d'Allégresse
• Gawain's Excalibur Galatine
• Arturia Alter's Excalibur Morgan
• MHX's Secret-Calibur
• Drake's Golden Wild Hunt
• Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge
• Sigurd's Gram
• Iskandar's Via Expugnatio
• Ishtar's Gugalanna Strike and An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē
• Beowolf's Grendel Buster
• Eresh's Kur Kigal Irkalla
• Attila's Teardrop Photon Ray
• Aśvatth─üma's Sudarshan Chakra Yamaraj
• Ozy's Mesektet
• Moriarty's Dynamics of an Asteroid
• Orion's Tri-star Amore Mio and Mikotto
• Semiramis' Basmu
• Beatrice's Mjölnir's second phase
• Herc's Nine Lives
• Mephistopheles' Ticktock Bomb
• Merlin's Holy Sword
• Paracelsus' Sword of Paracelsus
• Rin and Zelretch's Jewel Sword Zelretch
• Fionn's Mac an Luin
• Jailter's La Gr├óce Fille No├½l
• Raikou's ┼Üakra's Vajra
• Romulus' Voluisse Magnum
• Wallachia in TATARI, Dead Apostle Soon and Dust of Osiris
• Santa Arturia's Secace Morgan
• Ryouma's Soaring Like a Dragon
• Lancelot's Arondight Overload
• Summer Artoria's Excalibur Vivian
• Proto Arthur's Excalibur
• Arash's Stella

6-A EX Noble Phantasm and Powerful Dragons
So, Grail Boosted Teardrop Photon Ray got this calc. 1 Petaton. Pretty nice. There is also System Keraunos' statement of literally destroying continent, specifically America, which is 1.3 Petatons. Those two should make it to 6-A.

This scales only to some NPs starting from Mash's Lord Chaldeas and EX Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasms that is destructive and doesn't have an anti-feat like Arthur's Base Excalibur. Also it's been shown that very strong Dragons can do something like this as well, as Fafnir overpowered Lord Chaldeas. This in turn scales to currently 6-Bs because that should scale to Rhon because Vortigern is exceptionally strong Dragon.

Also just saying, Ozy having separate key for his NP is stupid. We don't do that to any other characters.

• Mash's Lord Chaldeas
• 5th Singularity Cu Alter's Gae Bolg
• Scathach's Gae Bolg Alternative
• Vortigern and Fafnir
• Siegfried's Balmung when only against Dragons
• Arturia's Rhongonomiad
• Boudica's Chariot of Boudica (Defense only)
• Arash's Command Spell Boosted Stella
• Ozy's Dendera Lightbulb and Ramasseum Tentriys
• Nitocris' Mirror of the Underworld
• Quetz's Quetzalcoatl
• Martha's Tarasque
• Proto Arthur's Excalibur with Unknown Restrictions
• Goetia, Solomon and Merlin's Magecraft
• Sigurd's Gram when only against Dragons
• Jeanne Alter's La Grondement Du Haine

High 6-A Rho
Some vague magical description aside, Rhon with more than half of it's restraints released should be High 6-A by statement of it alone. It can strip the surface of the World and anchor for it's layer after all. This should only scale to Rhon of both Lancers.

5-B Proto Arthur and 2-A Excalibur and Arjuna
Excalibur Proto is a Divine Construct meant to save the planet and specifically designed to defeat beings that could destroy the earth once over half of its Restraints are released. This is like, blatant 5-B. Why does this not accepted, not like some people scale or anything.

For 2-A, well, first, Arjuna. It's pretty obvious where this is from matching Vasavi Shakti, so his Pashupata should scale to it, Karna was at his normal peak back then because of Karl's back-up. Not like it's outlierish too, they're rivals after all.

For Excalibur, there should be a new key for "Peak", at the peak of it's strength. It was able to kill Sefar and damage her normally, as seen by the lore.

High-rank Dead Apostles
So, Pre-Tsukihime Arcueid. Force of the four combined forces of servants and assuming all of them have A-Rank Strength, she should have 99.44 Gigatons. Very close to High 6-C. This scales to Aoko and Touko's prep.

Post-Tsukihime Arcueid, Full Power Roa, Zelretch, Gransburg, Merem and Van-Fem gets to High 6-C however scaling from Wallachia who can fight Phantasmal Beasts. And considering that Gransburg and Merem needs to combine forces to defeat Altrouge, it should be double that of Pegasus for Arcueid and Roa.

Thoughts?

Agree: Iapitus, Upgrade, Crim, Paul, Dangai, Makkurona, Diinou, John, Psycho, Velox, WHY

Disagree:

Neutral: Crim (7-A Removal only), Paul (7-A Removal only), John (Excalibur only), Psycho (7-A Removal only), Velox (2-A Excalibur only)

Bruh

Anyway, neutral on 7-A going away, agree with everything else.

I have already made my feelings clear that I think the 7-A part of the key should be kept, due to the fact that in previous attempted downgrades prior to the discoveries of these calcs, the multitude of 7-A statements was enough to prevent them, so I think it should at the very least warrant some level of 7-A key even in the absence of a calc for a specific value.

That being said, I do not have time to argue, and the vast majority of the other Nasu supporters I have talked with disagree with me, so I am clearly in the minority. I'll begrudgingly vote in favor. However, let me be clear that if it is shown to be the case that there is actually significant support for keeping the 7-A keys, then you know what my vote changes to

Also, about the Excalibur thing, do we actually know that it was Artoria who used it to kill Sefar?

Otherwise, everything looks good

Artoria wouldn't get 2-A Excalibur. However, this exists.

i 100% completely agree with all of this!!! Good work, and great job! Also we get confirmation that Artoria Excalibur destroyed sefar/velbar in namelesses route [Alternate timeline] https://i.imgur.com/jBeHo17.png https://i.imgur.com/QvKVMBN.png

my opinion on the tier 7 thing. Someone can have tier 7 range and still be country level attack potency, or even tier 7 range with 2-A attack potency. Something like "I'll blow this mountain away" is their dialect, and simply just how they talk. They don't know if their own attack has the equivlent energy to destroy a country, or even a multiverse if they don't have the range to find out. So they simple limit themselves to what they understand. which would be limited by their range of destruction from what they can see from what could be the aftermath of an attack, or they see the blooming up ball of some mushroom cloud, just before an explosion from a distance.

Neutral on the 7-A thing also not sure about the dividing by 5 but myeh,

Overall agree

Yeah, agreeable for me.

Btw, the link for Arjuna almost made me think you brought me to a Naruto video instead. Also, finally, someone actually pointed out that Dragon and top Beasts are 6-A

...I completely agree with this...Also on a small side not about some weird stuff on MHX's Excalibur and the fact it's Star Level, not sure if it would work but hey, i thought i should mention thag about her swords

Let's see...

Point 1: Okay. Dividing by 5, with the reason you gave it looks more reasonable than the divide by 2 we currently use. Agree

Point 2: Didn't Lancelot's Arondight have some kinda properties that nulls NotS? My stance on this is basically "let me grab my scans/wait till you answer me"

Point 3: Why didn't I think of the 7 times multiplier? Agreed on this

Point 4: Well, looks reasonable. Agree

Point 5: I recall somebody saying something about layer don't give a Tier, like Mooncell layer doesn't make it a universe, but meh. My stance on this is I'd agree on your proposal.

Point 6: Exc Proto's description reminds me of Enkidu's Enuma Elish lol (Agreed on this and Pashupata btw). As for the "main" Exc, wasn't it "a similar sword", not Exc itself? I'd give it a "Likely 2-A" rather than outright 2-A

Point 7: Not knowledgeable about Dead Apostles stuffs. Neutral

Well, stripping away a Layer is at least 6-B to 6-A. But considering the status of what a Layer should be, i will stay neutral on it since i am confused on how it works.

Oh, some things I do disagree with, but its not necessarily with what you propose but just an issue with how we currently have them tiered.

Romulus's spear should be put in par with Lartoria's Lance, as they clash within her interlude while he was pretty casual. I know that we often have issue with drawing from interludes, but since this isn't his interlude, I think it will still be fine. Also, their spears in general are regerded as equal

Moriarty's Dynamics of an Asteroid should probably be tiered at varies via prep, but its lowest form can be tiered at what you propose. We know he managed to almost destroy The World (or at least the planet) with it, and when amplified to Anti-Country we can put it on par with the others of that class and rank. So he should probably be Varies, at least [the tier you recommended], up to [Anti-Country NP AP], Planet Level at his strongest

The layer/texture stuff according to the OP is "setting aside the mysteries of the layers/textures magical properties due to no detailed description so far" so it's a low end. In regards to the texture/layer stuff mentioned

If we are talking about stripping away a layer, I think that is probably more hax than AP. Even when someone like Dust of Osiris is given full prep time to activate her NP, and turning the whole planet into the wasteland she sees, she isn't necessarily effecting the lower layers or the reverse side (although this is ambiguous). Ripping away the layers is more like destroying the fabric of reality, so somewhere between Reality Warping and Spacial Manipulation. Even something like the layer of The World we see during Babylonia has an abyss that goes insanely deep into the earth, and even possibly has a seperate core. Things like the laws of physics did not abide in the same way they do now, if at all.

If done through raw AP it would probably be either Multi-Continental or Planetary, but I can't think of anyone who can just straight up destroy a layer through raw AP. Kinda like destroying a Universe or Reality Marble in totality almost requires some form of implied spacial manip/erasure since you would be destroying the very space itself. Her lance isn't going "lemme just blow up the planet to get another planet under it," she is attacking the fabric of The World itself, so she isn't doing this through AP, although obviously she does need some AP to do it.

I think Moriarty is probably the closest one to destroying a planet through raw AP (and prep), but even then, he is doing it in a self-crafted singularity, and in an isolated space-time of its own. We even know that even had Goetia incompletely incinerated Humanity, and created a new World, it still wouldn't have effected the deepest reaches of The World, since Merlin was still alive in Avalon on the reverse side, although he did destroy the land of shadows which also exists on the revers side of the world, so how deep it goes isn't clear either.

We have avalon as an example of a layer... but thats not what this CRT is about.. its a safe low-end due to the lack of description they are given for High 6-A

About the Arjuna 2-A thing, shouldn't we conclude the "2-A or not Vasavi Shakti" discussion?

@Diinou I'm going entirely by the profile. But I think it comes from amps from Arondight considering how it works. Likely 2-A seems fine.

@Iapitus I can agree on that.

@DMB It got nowhere, basically. However there is no given anti-feat currently so I think it works.

Avalon is located within the core of the world right? Excalibur comes from there and Excalibur was stated to be forged in the sea at the centre of the planet. Merlin also mentions the "the inner sea" when he makes his NP, which recreates Avalon.

Ah yes, that damn NP. We don't want to deal with Low 1-C stuff right now, we all know that comes later after we finish this thing.

Also yeah, as far as I know. I may be wrong tho.

Neutral on 7-A, everything else seems fine to me atm.

Yeah when the vape was accepted they should be 6-C.

Agree to everything.

But neutral on 5-B and 2-A excalibur.

To clarify my comment was more in reference to this part.

Iapitus The Impaler said:

We even know that even had Goetia incompletely incinerated Humanity, and created a new World, it still wouldn't have effected the deepest reaches of The World, since Merlin was still alive in Avalon on the reverse side, although he did destroy the land of shadows which also exists on the revers side of the world, so how deep it goes isn't clear either.

Click to expand...

Avalon seems like it would be the deepest known layer of the World, if not the deepest layer outright.

TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:

Rhongo and avalon are connected to each other but i definetly don't want to start a war.. so this is all i'll say..

Click to expand...

I think there are also thingies about the Lance's "True" form, which is always anchoring the World with the Reverse Side, and the manifestation used by Lancria IIRC

Anyways, back on point. Anyone else has other inputs?

Yeah, i think 7-A should go away (aside the fact 6-C key are the most versitality one right now lel), aside that i agree with all of the points except the 2-A Excalibur

Also i wanna bring this, would the living version of servants get straight up to pure High 6-C?

Veloxt1r0kore said:

Also i wanna bring this, would the living version of servants get straight up to pure High 6-C?

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IIRC it's not for living Servants exactly. But for those who scale to "average" Divine Spirits (Certainly not the likes of Stheno or Euryale)

That mean they stay at High 6-C, alright then

Should any of the Servants downscale to High 7A?

No, they get yeeted from tier 7 entirely.

Btw Gin, should the living servants/anybody scale to average divine spirits get pure High 6-C? Since they are scaled to Goddess Rhon so i'm pretty sure they're stay

Anyone who scales to Rhon gets High 6-C entirely.

Awesome then

Completely agree with these changes.

So are we gonna applying the change or wait for the others?

I may be creating an Abigail profile soon, so I'll follow this

Veloxt1r0kore said:

So are we gonna applying the change or wait for the others?

Click to expand...

I'm mainly waiting for Lance because he's the one who suggested the staying of 7-A. Also I think Monarch could make it clear if he agrees or not.

Completely agree with all. Multiple 7-As that complements the result of a calc that was not accepted makes less sense than a fewer but still substantial amount of 6-Cs that complement an accepted calc end.


6-C is where they should be I think.


5-B Proto-Arthur makes sense (I swear he's the Grand Saber since he's tracking down a Beast so best husbando will become 2-A soon anyways heh)

Does ishtar NP not get 6-A scale? It Ex post interlude

I don't think so. It's not Anti-Fortress.