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MASSIVE Nasuverse Scaling and Tier Revision (Yes, we're doing this all over again)

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It Anti-Mountain which is logically bigger and much more impressive than a fortress, but considering this is Fate I guess it whatever????
 
Like I said above, I'll go with the majority, but no I do not agree at all with removing 7-A. There's no several 7-A statements, there are several tier 7 statements. Unless we assume, for example, way bigger than baseline mountain size for mountain destruction statements, that's around 7-C or 7-B, plus other smaller calcs here and there. That is a big difference. If there were multiple, we wouldn't have such issue with revisions in the past.

I will never agree to Lancelot with Arondight comparable to Gawain. The only thing that kept Lancelot alive was the skill difference. I am not sure we would scale someone that could only stalemete and couldn't even put a dent on their adversary, to their level. He then destroys Gawain with barely any effort when he depowers despite Gawain and him being nearly equal even when Lancelot has Arondight. No anti-feat would ever support Berserk Lancelot not scaling to Saber Lancelot, you are literally told point blank that his noble phantasm catching trick against Gilgamesh would be impossible if he wasn't souped up with Mad Enhancement. Its obvious he's stronger all around, despite Saber suiting Lancelot better.

Scaling up NPs due to Durandina piercing Herc and Asterios both and one shotting Herc I am very okay with.

Same for multiplying 7 times from Caliburn for comparable or higher NP.

Never liked and never will the Photon Ray calc, especially as it is a grail boosted Servant. People were even saying scaling to Lord Camelot/Chaldeas would be enough, even though Mash did not block it alone...? I still lean for Likely or possibly due to Tesla. Tesla mentions his Full Power NP. There is lacking context, so it could either be full power lightning or full power actually calling the True Name, which is hax that would give no AP. Either or is just as likely. God do I hate vague statements, stop doing that stuff Nasu you little gremlin.

The Rhon stuff is hax, so nah. Layers are treated like literal layers of reality, not like destroying the surface by bombing it. Is a bit like Ea being the natural enemy of Reality Marbles, not because it has noice AP, but because it is an Anti World NP that can even erode the reality of the world itself, so its "super effective" against mini worlds, which is what RMs are. Or how Achilles NP shield would require an Anti World because it represents one, but even when we see it it really doesn't cover a wide area? Sure doesn't look as big as the entirety of greece to me.

I will never try to deal with anything Extra again as far as I can try. Decide that Arjuna thing yourselves, sorry. And gonna go no for 5-B. Da Vinci makes it clear, not even something that could theoretically destroy the planet would do it, The Counter Force would smack it upside the head. And the actual threats we get are never shown going for "destroying the planet", but doing something irreversible. Settling for 5-B as a hard base tier just doesn't seem too good to me, we actually have no clue how much power you gotta pull out of your ass to overpower Gaia and actually destroy the planet, or if that would be an actual requirement to be considered a threat to it. Far higher with half restraints off, Likely/Possibly up to 2-A works better for me. One of the beasts is even from Arthur's own world, so stuff that powerful can spawn on his side. Excalibur can deal with Sefar because nothing else can hurt it without Sefar nourishing from it, healing to some extent and becoming stronger. But it can still hurt her so yeah sure, 2-A at full power works.

Merem and Gransburg need to combine for Altrouge because two of the Ancestors are her bodyguards, and they think mutually assured destruction would be the only way to get rid of each one. Based on that alone, and that Altrouge is considered monstruous due to Primate Murder rather than just her own power, double that for her, Roa and Arcueid I can't agree with. But Altrouge should obviously scale full power Arcueid as she was the one to cut off her hair.
 
If what you said about Arondight is true, then I agree with not scaling it.

If you have the problem with fully scaling it, then we can divide it to half, which is about 500 Teratons, High 6-B. Ozy, Rhon, Stella and Arthur would still be 6-A tho because of Tesla.

It would still be not below 5-B tier, since you still need to have power to destroy the planet. Also this won't scale to Arthur, only to Excalibur because we don't know if Excalibur can go that high when he wields it.
 
As far as I am aware, and anyone can post info that disagrees with this if they find it, Lancelot was left entirely unable to do anything but stalemate until NotS expired.

Is less fully scaling to it and more that I don't remember anything actually breaching lord camelot/chaldeas. And the uncertain nature of whether Tesla meant full power thunder stuff or full power space time distortions, which is the actual full power of his NP and hax that wouldn't be applicable, makes it uncertain for me so I default for Likely. But as with everything else, I'll just disagree but go with the majority if the others think likely isn't necessary.

Thats the thing. Humans are a threat to gaia, but they are not 5-B. Threat to the planet and power to destroy the planet don't seem to correlate on the same level here. They just killed it by pure pollution and being big assholes. Goetia and Tiamat should totally be able to do it and yadda yadda because 2-A, but their threat is never planetary destruction. Just think of all the small incidents the Counter Force interfere into because they constitute some threat to the planet in the long term despite being pretty small shit. They are still a threat to the planet. And yeah, I know is just to Excalibur.
 
Teardrop calc was 1.8 petatons, halfing it since it was blocked by two NPs gets it to 900 teratons, aka very close to baseline 6-A, which IMO fits.
 
Dangai Ichigo said:
Speaking of Arthur, may I ask what Does Proto Gil's NP even does ? It is something related to the flood from what I recall
Click to expand...
Summoning the mythical flood from sumerian legend. There's more to it than that but that's the gist of it.
 
Lancelot should still get 6-C+ Dura from Arondight tho.

Then it's 6-A even when halved because she needed Boudica. We don't know if it's lightning or space-time but we know that it's destructive so we should take this as AP unless something says otherwise.

Then I can agree with Far Higher.
 
Would it be the blade itself that has the durability, or would it be Lancelot gaining it as well? His attack and defense aren't that off to begin with, so if it amps his durability to that level I think it's worth a possibly in AP for that rating.

Now that I think about it, we don't usually give durability for the weapons themselves outside of things like shields or primarily defensive armaments, but thinks like Hector's spear should probably have a much higher durability than their AP or something
 
Weekly and Monarch straight up says that they are disinterested in tiering of Nasu a while ago. I'm the only one who cares I guess and majority agreed so I think I will start editing later. Not like any admin will respond to this.
 
Well, mostly disinterested. Tier 2 and higher stuff mostly.

I guess I'm against the high 6-A Rhon cuz reality warping

6-C servants seems weird considering the majority of their feats top out at vaguely tier 7 but I guess if the scaling works.
 
I agree, 7-A to 6-C for all Servants always bothered me. But in a different way, I think it is a high-ball, as it all comes from the statement that they are immune to damage from modern weapons, but it did not say this is defence, but rather due to the fact they are spiritual bodies. Even a Plastic Knife coudl hurt them if it contains enough Mana or Mystery.

Also, it is arguable if we would consider the Tsar Bomba, which is what got 7-A, in the first place. Due to it being a release of pure energy. Not a weapon that physically hits them.

Overall I do agree with these changes. Many Servants need a Downgrade from where they're at.

I feel we should have two Ranks, one for the Servant normally, and the other for the use of their NP.

This way we won't have Servants having such high Base Strength.
 
I would actually put the blade's durability itself at 6-C+ or higher and let Lancelot remain in 6-C. You could say he should still scale as he didn't get hurt, but a nearly indestructive sword and the skill advantage should cover for that.

Kojirou, using a much, much more frail sword, was able to continously battle Saber and put pressure on her plus parrying and off setting all of her strikes. This despite the fact that the one moment Kojirou takes her attack slightly head on without parrying most off the power away, his sword cracks right away. And I expect Lancelot to do more or less the same, especially since Gawain was... a bit angry and likely getting played along.

Destructive doesn't matter. Hax that ignores endurance naturally doesn't lend to AP, so it couldn't be used. But is uncertain so hence why I think Likely works better. I in general don't like the Altera one since I don't remember an instance of a shield breaching Lord Chaldeas.

@Zouken And no, Servants being that high has nothing to do with being immune to modern weaponry. It has to do with calcs for stuff Lion King did, and the fact Gawain barely survives one such blast. So they backscale. We already differentiate the Servants normal rank from their rank with an NP if its stronger.
 
I 100 percent think Lancelot scale fully to Gawaiin. Dude stalemated him for literal hours before the sun went down. The entire time neither got any ground on each other. Yes Lancelot never gain any ground on Gawain but the opposite is also true Gawaiin never gain any ground on Lance. Also the Kojirou example is not very accurate cuz that was one exchange in like what a 5-10 minute battle? Again Lance and Gawain battle tooks hours upon hours. how many times do you think they had an exchange like the one with Kojirou and Arturia? Hundreds maybe thousands in those hours. Yet Gawain never once took the advantage. Doesn't matter how skilled Lancelot is. If Gawaiin was so far above him in term of power that Lancelot could only stay on the defensive and rely only on Arondight how exactly did the dude last multiple hours against an opponent that wanted him dead. Lance had so much energy left by the time the sun set that he more or less imeddiatly rekted Gawain the moment he lost his sun buff. Also why are we assuming that Lancelot was completely helpess against Gawain, rather than they were so perfectly on par against each other that Lancelot most logical chance in victoy was to wait it out.
 
How long the battle took is irrelevant, that's an issue of stamina and not power. And maybe he never once got the advantage because 1, 2 or 3 hours matter little if the dude you are battling completely outskills you and easily sees through everything you are doing from the first to the last minute...?

The fact that someone comparable wouldn't wait for you to depower if, as you are stating, stamina is such a big issue. You'd kill him the first slip up you get. I am sorry, but thinking Lancelot was comparable yet needed to wait until Gawain lost all of his power to deal a killing blow is goddamn dumb. He outskills Gawain so hard it is hilarious, someone with that much of an advantage doesn't wait hours if he's comparable to you.
 
Again reason why Lance never killed Gawain during there stalemate was because they were completely equal to one another. And we have no reason to believe that if a guy can fend off another guy for literal hours on end that he is far inferior to him. This is what we know of there battle.

They fought. Lance Won. And Lance won after a long stalemate when the sun setted and Gawain lost his buff.

Nothing about that will make you believe that one was so many times more powerful than the other one that all Lance could do is try to outskill and stall Gawain until the sun set.

Forgive if im iterpreting your words wrong but your making it seems like Lance was a powerless baby against Gawain. That his only hope was to outskill the other dude for literal hours on end until his buff ran out. Time absolutely does matter if your fighting a guy for literal hours on end what reason do have to believe that one only won because pure skill rather than they were simply perfectly equal that neither never got the chance to land a killing blow or deal a fatal wound to the other. This fight took hours you don't think that not once they clashed sword directly at each other as they try to hold their ground?

My problem here is that you assume

1. Lance was a complete powerless baby against Gawain, that nothing Lance did could possibly hope to even harm him

2. Gawain was so completely out skilled he was nothing more than a raging bull being led along by the matador that was Lance.

This is despite the fact that they a both constant lauded as the Strongest AND most skilled of the KOTR
 
Sieg and Karna were also comparable to one another, they got hits on each other many times.

You make no sense. The fact he had to stalemate in the first place until he was weaker completely indicates he wasn't comparable physically. If you are comparable physically, and you are so much more skilled it is hilarious, you don't wait hours to hurt your opponent. Nobody would ever reach such a conclusion.

And yes, I feel you aren't understanding me at all. Kojirou shows very blatantly that a skill advantage makes him, who Saber could kill with a decisive strike, continue taking her blows without slowing down. Despite the fact his katana was so weak that the first time he blocked a blow instead of parrying it, his Katana cracked and bent a little. A much weaker item remaining undamaged against much, much more powerful blows because of how much more skilled Kojirou was. Lancelot was strong enough to make up for the difference by pure skill and make sure Gawain couldn't get a hit in, but didn't have the strength to hurt Gawain in anyway if he attacked, otherwise the battle wouldn't have been called a stalemate in which Lancelot had to wait. If he could hit him after he got weaker, he could have hit him when he was stronger. Even if he couldn't deal a big wound, if he could wound him a little he'd weaken him in the long run with more and more wounds adding in. But he never did this, not even attempted, which sounds exactly like he couldn't even hurt Gawain.
 
But I can't understand 6-C Saber, and scaling from the Lion King is not a logical way to go, as it has been stated that the Lion King is far more powerful than her base form. And increased the power of all the Servants that pledged themselves to her. Because the "Lion King" held onto the Holy Lance and transformed into the "Goddess Rhongomyniad", changing into a complete Divine Spirit in the process, She is far more powerful, an entirely different form of existance. and lended part of this power to her Followers. Turning them into far more powerful individuals.

Thus backscaling is not really applicable, expecially to Saber herself.

It is just a massive leap in logic from my PoV, and one that is directly contradicted by the actual canon.

And overall Servants in Grand Order are far more powerful than their Canon forms. Thus should be counted in a seperate key.

Outside of NP's Servants are never shown to reach such levels of AP. Not even a fraction of it. Even with Mana Burst.

Destruct
This is the Level of Destruction shown in Base. With the description in the text lining up with these levels.
No other descriptions put them up to 6-C levels.
 
Zouken said:
But I can't understand 6-C Saber, and scaling from the Lion King is not a logical way to go, as it has been stated that the Lion King is far more powerful than her base form. And increased the power of all the Servants that pledged themselves to her.
Thus backscaling is not really applicable, expecially to Saber herself.

It is just a massive leap in logic from my PoV, and one that is directly contradicted by the actual canon.

And overall Servants in Grand Order are far more powerful than their Canon forms. Thus should be counted in a seperate key.
Click to expand...


"Downscaling from 124 Gigatons. Let's divide it by 5. It is a fair enough assumption, that is the point where a normal human is getting hit by objects that can hurt them critically.

24.86 Gigatons. This is Gawain's Durability. 6-C. Let's be real here, Servant Ranks when it comes to strength is pure bull so except for really weak E-ranks, everyone scales.

This scales to Mantra Boosts and Dead Apostles as well, of course. This also scales to C-rank NP and above.

All A-Rank NPs and B+-Rank Anti-Army Noble Phantasms should be At least 6-C for Durindana piercing through both Asterios and Herc at once."


"''This scales to Caliburn which is 7 times Herc's Dura. So just multiplier to 7.

174.02 Gigatons. High 6-C. Scales to any of this NPs and the ones that are shown to scale to it. The ones that are scaled are:"
 
We are not downscaling from the lion king, we are downscaling from a casual feat the lion king did since she tried to kill Gawain and failed, but he was hurt like hell, so back scaling. No reason to believe the super casual blast and this one are different in power.

Servants aren't far more powerful in Grand Order. This is immensely fallacious and backed by nothing.

That's an AoE fallacy though.
 
But what says that Herc is as durable as a Mountain, outside of Headcanon?

And again, you are talking about the far more powerful Grand Order versions, which I still stand by my claim that they should use a different key, due to just how great the difference is.

Also, where does this Durability come from? Nowhere that I remember. As my memory serves it is an extrapolation based upon a misinterpretation of a singular claim. Interpreting it as a Durabiity Feat rather than a result of their Spectral Nature.

This also does not count how Gwain is extremely buffed from what he should be at. Due to being assisted by a Divine Spirit.

I have always seen 7-A Servants as being ludicrous, and made me never use this wikia when it comes to the Nasuverse. And now it is raised even higher, which is the last straw. Becuase I just don't see how they have 7-A for anything short of High-end NPs.

How the bloody hell is the Base level put at 6-C. It is contradicted on countless occasions, and has no real info that actually supports said rating.

I have always went more on the side of 8-B to 7-C, possible Low 7-B, when not including any buffs, or the Grand Order Versions. Which I have always considered as a different entity to their original counterparts.

NPs go from 7-A to High 6-C. With exceptions.
 
How is it fallacious to say that Servants being able to fight off 2-A Multiversal Threats (Goetia, Kama, Demon King Nobununga, Avenger Shirou, Arjuna Alter, Tiamat, Space Ishtar, etc), and having NPs that can damage the entierty of a Large Country.

Servants being able to reach 2-A in the first place is a major increase in power.

Servants like Scherazade are able to Warp Reality on a Continent Level Scale. Others showing abilities reaching the Levels of True Magic.

Sasaki is shown as having skills that transcend all Time, Space, and Existance. To a level far beyond the limited use of the Multi-Demensional Refractory Phenomenon. Becoming one with endlessness. Passing through Infinite Possibilities. Far beyond what he did in his other form.

Servants are also capable of fighting off Divine Spirits, which are canonically far more powerful than Servants, yet somehow are able to be fought off.

Many Servants are buffed by the Grail.

Many parts of the text in Grand Order describe destructive capablilities beyond anything shown in Zero, Stay/Night, or Ataraxia.

I could go on.
 
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