Here. This will for now likely be the only comment I can make for this as I have college to deal with. But this will be quite long, so everyone, prepare yourselves. Why Alien X is NOT 2-B and should not be upgraded.
Ben 10 Isn't a 2-A Multiverse
Before I even get to covering Alien X, this needs to be brought up again. Or at the very least, it should be so that people here don't start making confusions about the tiering. The Ben 10 Multiverse is not even a 2-A structure to begin with. The only reason why they have even remained 2-A up until now was because of a simple compromise from The Everlasting's downgrade thread, which I am shutting down now.
The current evidence we use to justify 2-A Ben 10 at all here is
the statement made by Paradox saying that there are parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum" . This is
not 2-A. "Branching off ad infinitum" doesn't mean that the universes in the Ben 10 Multiverse are flat out infinite in number. It only means that the universes simply branch off and grow in number for infinity. Infinitely growing in number, but still remaining finite in number at all times. Which is, at best, high into 2-B. And it needs to be kept in mind that Paradox
just before explicitly said there were only hundreds of timelines, which shuts down any chance of the Multiverse being infinite flat out in scope.
So even
IF we take the highest possible interpretation of what Paradox said, and accept Alien X scaling to the Chrono Navigator, it still isn't 2-A. So the weapons and the multiverse need to be downgraded first things first.
Chrono Navigator isn't a 2-B weapon, normally
Lets take a look at Professor Paradoxes current justification for his 2-A (2-B) rating:
"Multiverse level+ with the Chrono Navigator (If misused, the Chrono Navigator can destabilize space-time to the point that "all of existence", referred to the Cosmos which consisting parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum", would be destroyed)"
Key word:
If misused. Putting this here so that this isnt missed.
The Chrono Navigator, while indeed a 2-B weapon, isn't regularly at that level. And what do I mean by "regularly"? I mean that its not regularly designed for outputting 2-B energy. The Navigator is normally used as a dimensional-traveling device thats capable of traveling through space-time, reaching alternate universes and dimensions and points in the past, present and future of those dimensions freely without getting lost. The Chrono Navigator can only unleash 2-B power if it is misused in a way that it doesn't normally perform at. Think of this as someone overloading a reactor to cause a planet to explode. The reactor isnt normally tier 5, only when its used out of what its designed to do. So the only way to scale to the reactor is for a character in question to oppose it when it's actually malfunctioning. Not when its used in a way where it isn't outputing tier 5 energy. The same goes for Alien X and the Chrono Navigator
To put it simply, the Chrono Navigator is only a 2-B device when its being used in a way that it isnt normally used as. So even IF we pushed for the highest level interpretation, there is absolutely no evidence that proves Alien X would be superior or even comparable to the device when its used for something it is not supposed to perform at. And now for the next issue.
Paradox's Statements about Alien X
Now, it's come to our attention already that Alien X has statements, made by Paradox, about possessing the most powerful power in the universe. I'll post them below:
- Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Map of Infinity
- Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.
- Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - The Forge of Creation
- Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
- Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
- Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent
These are the justifications for Alien X's power scaling above the power of the Chrono Navigator in the first place. However, this argument has
multiple holes in it.
First of all, this is a misleading argument. Even with acknowledging Paradox's statements at face value, Alien X scaling above the Navigator through this is not concrete. Why? Because Paradox himself is not physically 2-B. In fact, Paradox himself is not even a tier 2 being whatsoever. With his powers, he is only like....7-A to 4-B at best. Paradox is only tier 2 using the Chrono Navigator, which is completely independant from Paradox's power. So even with using this statement of him saying Alien X has the strongest power in the universe, the kind of scaling that would come from this said statement would only let Alien X scale above
individual capabilities. Not stats that are seperate, like weapons. We don't use these statements to scale other characters above weapons without
explicit evidence and Alien X is no exception to this.
Second of all, people here need to remember something. The Chrono Navigator, while indeed a 2-B weapon, isn't regularly at that level. And what do I mean by "regularly"? I mean that its not regularly
designed for outputting 2-B energy. The Navigator is normally used as a dimensional-traveling device that's capable of traveling through space-time, reaching alternate universes and dimensions and points in the past, present and future of those dimensions freely without getting lost. The Chrono Navigator can only unleash 2-B power if it is explicitly misused in a way that it doesn't normally perform at. It's normal capabilities doesn't allow it to destroy universes, let alone the entire Multiverse. So even with Paradox's statement and scaling Alien X above the Navigator, there isnt any evidence that says Alien X is above the Navigator when it's used in ways that are outside it's normal purposes.
Third, the statements that Paradox makes about Celestialsapiens may not even be referring to AP or strength in the 1st place given the context of them. Look at one of the statements Paradox makes:
- Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
And here's another statement that the OP even posted for me:
Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We
change the very nature of space and time.
Pay close attention to what I bolded out. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" is not Attack Potency or any kind of level of strength. This is implying that Paradox is talking about Celestialsapien's reality-warping abilities rather than their raw strength. And this conclusion is not entirely far-fetched. After all, Celestialsapiens are casual reality warpers, known to alter universes as many times as someone changes their shirt, known to even change the artstyle of the franchise and are capable of a multitude of different abilities. So while im not pushing for this argument, this does need to be kept in mind when taking full context into account instead of just immediately going for scaling Alien X's AP.
Fourth, there's a new point here that I did not previously address. To follow up on my 2nd point about the Chrono Navigator, why would Paradox's statement even apply to the Navigator when it's being misused as a 2-B weapon rather than how its
normally used? Up until Eon stole it, Paradox has never used, nor has he ever seen, the Navigator draw on 2-B power before. Power that can destroy the Multiverse to be more clear here. He explicitly only uses the Navigator for dimensional travel and keeps it out of the wrong hands so that the Navigator wouldn't be used for anything else at all, except dimensional travel. The first and only time Paradox has ever seen the Navigator be used at a 2-B level is when Eon steals it from him. So what definite evidence is there that Paradox's statement about Celestialsapiens would apply to the Navigator even when it does something it normally doesn't?
And no, saying "Paradox knows what the Navigator could do and still says Celestialsapiens hold the strongest power" doesn't fix this. Paradox's every intention is to make sure the Navigator is never used at 2-B levels of power at all by keeping it out of the wrong hands. To him, what the weapon
could do and what the weapon
normally does are 2 different things. If the weapon is normally used as something no where near 2-B, then it's not something with notable power to be compared to literally anything worthwhile in the verse. You can't take something that is only at a certain tier under
specific conditions and try to normalize it as some kind of regular standard in-universe to be able to make scaling chains exist.
Fifth, not to mention, "strongest power in the universe" still doesn't automatically mean that it scales above everything within said universe either.
I even made a thread about this some time ago and several others agreed that it was too vague to even apply a minimal tier for these kinds of statements. And considering the fact that Ben 10 is far more than just a universe, im not even sure why we would be taking "strongest in the universe" statements as any more than a grain of salt for it when its a Multiverse.
Alien X is never used against the Chrono Navigator
What the sub title says. In the "Ben Again" episode with Eon and the Chrono Navigator, Ben
never considers using Alien X as an option to stop Eon from misusing the Navigator. And
neither does Paradox. Paradox explicitly instructs Teen and Younger Ben to use Clockwork to send Eon outside of both their points in time and trap him there so that balance would be restored. Why would neither of them even consider using Alien X if he was superior to the Navigators power?
Rebuttals
Now, the paragraphs that you see above are really just covering the points on why I disagree with anything above Low 2-C Alien X. This Rebuttals section is the one where most of my counter-arguments are going to be taking place in response to the OP's arguments and any other possible counter argument I can think of at the moment.
Rebuttal 1: Plot-Induced Stupidity
Im addressing this one first because this will be the most typical argument to be brought up to support Alien X. None of this is Plot-Induced Stupidity. To be very blunt and outright honest, this counter point is being abused as nothing but an excuse and lazy copout to cover up the anti-feat of being inferior to the Chrono Navigator. And to make sure that whoever reads this isn't confused by what my counter-point is,
NO, this has nothing to do with Alien X not being used on a whim by Ben to solve any problem or issue that he comes across in-universe. That is obvious PIS so that the show can have actual story progression and that Alien X isn't used to solve every problem in a matter of seconds.
What my counter-argument is here really is that its not PIS for Ben to use Alien X
when the situation actually calls for him to be used, which is what we're dealing with here regarding the Chrono Navigator. Plot Induced Stupidity can't be used as an excuse in this case as we are blatantly shown that Ben is willing to try and use Alien X when the situation is big enough to force him to go to those extremes, even if there's a chance Bellicus and Serena wouldn't give him permission to use him. Just like when facing the Anihilaarg, and when facing the Celestialsapien Council in "Universe vs Tennyson", Ben knew he had to use Alien X if he wanted any chance of solving the problem. And he also knew that he had to convince them to give him permission to use Alien X. And he still chose to go with Alien X anyway. Why? Because the situation was grave enough for Ben to be willing to use Alien X. Ben has even shown to be willing to use Alien X in situations that don't call for him to be used, such as when Ben used Alien X against the Rooter kids. So at this point, it should be pretty clear that it is in Ben's character to consider and even use Alien X
more times than not using him.
Why would Ben be willing to use Alien X to stop a single universe from being destroyed, or to go against fodder, but then suddenly
not even consider using him to stop something that can destroy
all of existence? Not just Ben, but Paradox as well? It would have been far more easier to convince Bellicus and Serena (i'll get to this below) to stop a threat that is FAR bigger than the Annihilaarg, by entire light years, if Alien X could actually stop it in the first place.
Not to mention, Plot Induced Stupidity
only works for a character if they have
the exact opposite of an anti-feat that is applied to them. In other words, you can't argue an anti-feat is PIS without having another instance of a character doing the opposite to suggest the inconsistent feat is PIS. To give an example here, lets use
Arceus from Pokemo. We can say its PIS for Arceus to be injured by a meteor because he has far more feats that are considered infinitely superior to that of a meteor. Arceus is consistently considered Multiversal in feats, scaling and overall material that heavily out-weigh the inconsistency to treat it as PIS. Or if we want to use another example, lets use
Kaguya Otsutsuki from Naruto. Kaguya was able to be punched by
Sakura Haruno of all people. Yet, Sakura is consistently treated as being no where remotely close to Kaguya's level of power. Kaguya has much more feats and scaling that out-weighs Sakura hitting her, so we treat Sakura hurting her as the PIS feat. And I can go on from using characters from the
Plot-Induced Stupidity page.
So in order for this to be PIS, you would need
another instance of Alien X being used to stop a Multiversal level threat and actually
succeeding. And the only remote instance of this is Ben deciding to use Atomic-X to stop another Multiversal threat (i'll also address this below), which failed miserably as he got one shotted and completely stomped.
Without an actual Multiversal feat to go against the anti-feat of not being considered an option to stop the Navigator, you can't argue Ben not using Alien X to be PIS. So this argument should stopped being used here, completely.
Rebuttal 2: Nothing in the episode implies that Alien X wouldn't have worked. Paradox simply tells Ben to use Clockwork to act now and stop Eon.
And again,
that is the problem here. Paradox would have
never told them to use Clockwork in the first place if all Ben had to do was use Alien X. You need to remember, Clockwork is only an alien that is notably powerful with its time hax abilities. It's actual stats are nothing remarkable even compared to Ben's other aliens, let alone Alien X. Yet, Clockwork was Paradox's first immediate choice for the bens to use. And even with Clockwork, all they could do was trap Eon between their points in time instead of just outright defeating him in a fight.
Why go with an alien that can easily fail to do the job? Why not consider using the strongest alien in your entire arsenal to stop a threat that most certainly calls for using them? Neither he or the bens ever even considered using Alien X against the Navigator and it makes absolutely no sense, unless Alien X was not strong enough to do the job.
Rebuttal 3: Bellicus and Serena not giving Ben permissio
This is the next point that I think will be repeatedly brought up to argue why Ben and Paradox wouldnt consider Alien X an option to stop the Navigator unlike Clockwork. This argument has been repeatedly concluded to be nonsense in this case. It isnt going to fly here.
Because for one, "Ben Again" is an episode that happens much after the episode in Season 1 where Ben was blatantly willing to use Alien X and try to get their permission to use him to save the prime universe (Ben Again is a Season 2 episode), so Ben when facing the Chrono Navigator should have been completely willing to use Alien X if he was an actual option to stop it at all. If he's willing to use him to try and save
a single universe, trying to use him to save
all of existence is perfectly willingful.
Two, Even
IF there was an issue with getting to use Alien X, Bellicus and Serena are not idiots. They are not such morons that they would fail to recognize something
that can destroy even them. And before anyone says it, no, "Universe vs Tennyson" is not a counter against this since this is an episode that happens much after "Ben Again" (the episode with the Navigator) and in this episode, Bellicus and Serena's lives were never in danger. The difference between what happened in "Universe vs Tennyson" and what happened with Eon and the Chrono Navigator in "Ben Again" is that the former was only something that risked destroying
just Bens universe. Something Bellicus and Serena could care less about as it doesn't effect them in the slightest whatsoever. Not only this, but even when Ben was fighting against the Celestialsapien council, Alien X's life was not in danger at all. Starbeard, a Celestialsapien who's personalities are much more willing to agree than Bens, was
kicking the crap out of Alien X, who offered no resistance as of yet since Ben didnt get permission yet, and Alien X was not remotely phased by Starbeards attacks. The fact that another Celestialsapien could not at all harm Alien X, when not attacking or otherwise, would show that Bellicus and Serena were never going to be destroyed by the council. Just Ben's universe. And even at the end of the episodes trial, Bellicus and Serena were
still found guilty for creating a universe without permission and they weren't going to be destroyed at all. They were just fined for doing it without authorization. Thats it. They were never going to be destroyed, in battle or otherwise, which would easily explain why they had no worries about Ben fighting to save his universe because it doesn't involve them.
The Navigator is a threat to
all of existence, something that would very much so threaten to kill them. While Bellicus and Serena are not so easily made to be on the same page, they are more than so capable of using common sense to not be idotic enough to disagree in stopping something that would destroy the both of them. No matter how much you want to slice this up.
Three, Bellicus and Serena giving Ben permission or not doesn't even shut down most of my point. Even if there was a good chance that they wouldnt agree to help him, Ben
was still willing to use Alien X to stop the Anihilaarg. He knew what could have happened and still chose to go with Alien X. So there is absolutely no reason why he wouldnt do the same thing against something that is far more threatening like the Chrono Navigator.
Rebuttal 4: In Ben Again, Older Ben has the Prototype Omnitrix while Younger Ben has the Final product. Younger Ben wouldn't even know who Alien X is in the first place.
This literally doesn't matter at all.
Because first of all, Paradox explicitly instructed both teen and younger ben to sync their omnitrixes together so that one could gain the alien the other didnt have access to. So yes, Teen Ben still had access to Alien X's DNA through the omnitrix's synchronization. Second of all, even if Teen Ben couldn't somehow get access to the DNA, all he would have to do is simply tell Younger Ben to select Alien X and tell him to convince Bellicus and Serena to give him permission to use him. Don't act like explaining powers is somehow impossible here. And third, you can't use this as an argument to say Alien X couldn't be used. Younger Ben had no clue about Clockworks existence and that didn't stop Paradox from suggesting the both of them use him. Alien X is no exception to this.
Rebuttal 5: From Andytrenom: Being done to look cool won't invalidate in-universe explanations if they exist. Snip
This isn't my point as it comes from The Everlasting. But he did have a response for this, which i'll quote since his word on this matter should have a lot of importance:
"That wasn't even what I was addressing. I was addressing the claim that they only decided on Clockwork to show off both Bens' time powers."
Rebuttal 6:Atomic X is neither Alien X nor stronger than Alien X. In this thread, we go over reasons for his profile downgrade.
And the reasons are wrong as The Everlasting and others went over already the last time Alien X got downgraded. Literally all of the reasons why you argue Atomic-X to be weaker than Alien X have absolutely nothing to do with tiering and AP. Decreased powers and lacking resistance to Maltruants Time Manipulation =/= AP. This is strictly talking about abilities.
The only actual argument to argue Atomic-X being weaker than Alien X is him being harmed by Maltruant physically, which Ever explained to be nothing but PIS in his downgrade thread. And no, it being PIS has nothing to do with Alien X being fused with Atomix. It's PIS because of the simple fact that Chronosapiens are known to be physically weaker than other alien races, let alone Celestialsapiens. Even without factoring in Alien X, Atomix scales above Way Big, so it would be Plot Induced Stupidity for Atomic-X either way you slice it.
So for now, I vehemently oppose any upgrade for Alien X based on this information.
