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Celestialsapien Upgrade (Scaled to Chrono Navigator)

As for the "not normally 2-B" points

>Why would it....paradox page

Being misused in no way shape or form implies it's demonstrated power is not applicable for scaling. I misuse a gun if I rob a bank instead of using it for self defense purposes, doesn't mean it's not normally 9-C misusing simply means using something for the wrong purposes, that has more to do with what the person in control is willing to do than how powerful an object can be considered in comparision to others

>Refer to what...scaling chains

Same problems as above, what a person is normally willing to do with a device has nothing to do with how powerful the device normally is, you refer to the navigator only being strong under specific circumstances as if its a very situational AP feat that cannot be considered for scaling, like I dunno a self destruct attack or something, when this specific situation is literally "the guy holding it feels like nuking everything"

If someone willing to cause destruction with a device is all that's needed for the device to output 2-B levels of destruction, then the feat is most definitely not too situational for scaling purposes
 
Reason why this debate is even this long is due to the different scaling method on this site.That's all i have to say.
 
@Kukui The most I can see from that is a "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" rating

Yeah its plausible that being a greater power has nothing to do with AP and is just hax, but I won't say it's the obvious intended message of the statement

Being a greater power does imply the option of just straight up being a greater power as well, and even if we don't take it to 100% mean that, I don't see why it can't be acknowledged at least
 
All I can say about the first rebuttal is that you're taking the "negative doesn't need to be proven" idea as far more literal than it is. It is a very fundamental principle in debating that you can't use your assertion as a premise and if you don't follow that and your only excuse is that your premise is negative, then sorry but that doesn't mean anything, it doesn't adress any of the flaws with the circular arguments and expects that to not be an issue because a general rule taken at face value implies so

As for the second, Alien X is currently accepted to have type 2 acausality due to only one of him existing for all bens. Going by wiki's own rulings, the sync thing most likely won't work

And sure Ben speaking up isn't impossible, but when you keep adding these scenarios of what would happen regarding a plot element in an episode that never had anything to do with that plot element, it makes the explanation given being a headcanon likelier and likelier.
 
Vilgax Attacks can be argued as being canon as an alternate timeline.

In Ben 10000 Returns, Paradox mentions the post-credit scene of the Ben 10: Vilgax Attacks timeline, where Albedo was frozen as Alien X for over a year.

In turn, it's the same Alien X.

My overall point is that it is consistant with their character and personality that they debate on everything, even their lives (if it was in danger). That is their procedure that they live by.
 
Hmm, I'm thinking Prof's arguments seems more consistent with what occurs in the show, if I'm understanding what occured correctly.
 
Is there like a Tl:DR for both sides of the argument? And if not, can someone make one?

Because otherwise this would take up too much of my time and I wouldn't be able to give input on this thread.
 
I would appreciate if somebody could help out by writing or quoting a summary of the arguments.
 
@ Prof

How does the misuse of the Chrono Navigator factor in at all to it's power?

If Paradox built the damn thing, and knows what it's capable of enough to warn Eon to not mess with it, then I am fairly certain he knows what he's saying when he refers to Celestialsapiens as the most powerful force in existence.
 
@Zamasu correct as of now nobody scales to George misusing his sword and Way Big and co are gonna be downgraded to 5A, pretty sure this was accepted. Fusions and future aliens are complicated but I might downgrade Way Big to 7A which would get rid of those inconsistencies. The difference however is that the ultimates used to scale to a regular attack of George while in this scenario with the Chrono Navigator the full power of things are (most likely) referenced.
 
Greenshifter said:
@Zamasu correct as of now nobody scales to George misusing his sword and Way Big and co are gonna be downgraded to 5A, pretty sure this was accepted. Fusions and future aliens are complicated but I might downgrade Way Big to 7A which would get rid of those inconsistencies.
Click to expand...
They're getting downgraded because George was literally holding back against Ultimate Humungousaur. Characters, like Gwen in her astral form, was stated to be the strongest on earth so she scales to George. However by Professor's logic Sir George is only 5-A if he misused his sword, implying he would be 7-A all the time.
 
It is my understanding that one of the main issues here lies with the fact that Alien X is never directly compared to the Chrono Navigator. Instead we simply have quotes from the person who owns and operates the Chrono Navigator, and said quotes indicate that he reveres Alien X's power as the greatest power available. If we want to scale the two, we'll need to establish exactly how comperable the two items are, see if it is reasonable to assume Professor Paradox's quotes about Alien X took the Chrono Navigator into consideration, and ideally confirm that the writers did not simply forget about the Chrono Navigator and its implied power during Professor Paradox's lines about Alien X.

Does anybody have the exact quote about misuse of the Chrono Navigator? I know it was posted earlier on this page, but this thread is getting hard to navigate. Perhaps looking at the methodology for the Chrono Navigator's misuse can give us some insight.
 
From my OP:

In-Show Statements

  • Ben 10 Alien Force - X = Ben + 2
    • Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.
  • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Map of Infinity
    • Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.
  • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - The Forge of Creation
    • Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
    • Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
    • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
    • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
  • Ben 10 Omniverse - Ben Again
    • Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
    • Eo: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't
    • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself.
    • Eo: Merely the key to dominion over all space and time. And thanks to you, It is now mine! [ Laughs evilly ] It's amazing. Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!
    • Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!
    • Eo: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!
  • Ben 10 Omniverse - Universe VS Tennyson (Even after the display of the Chrono Navigator, the writers once again have a character refer to the Celestialsapians as Omnipotent. To my knowledge, "omnipotent" has only been used in the show in reference to the species. For obvious reasons, we dont take the wording literally.)
    • Chadzmuth: We all know that Celestialsapiens change the universe as often as my client changes his shirt. Okay, bad example, but my point, and I do have one, is that Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time. Even First Thinker Azmuth's voice and appearance has changed on at least three occasions. For all we known Celestialsapiens are out there changing the universe at this very moment. I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human
    • Ben: Hey
    • Chadzmuth: responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings? I say nay. Nay I say. Now the magic happens.
 
Okay. Well, your first big hurdle here is that the quote mentioning the power of the Chrono Navagator takes place in an episode written over two years after the last time Professor Paradox mentioned the power of the Celestialsapiens. If this is truly a collection of all quotes relevant to the discussion, then it appears that the writers had yet to establish the Chrono Navigator as something capable of collapsing multiple timelines when Professor Paradox first made comment about the Celestialsapiens being the greatest power available. I'm not sure if they can be retroactively scaled to it like that or not.
 
In Universe VS Tennyson, the writers once again have a character refer to the Celestialsapians as Omnipotent. To my knowledge, "omnipotence" has only been used in the show in reference to the species. For obvious reasons, we dont take the wording literally.

Chadzmuth: We all know that Celestialsapiens change the universe as often as my client changes his shirt. Okay, bad example, but my point, and I do have one, is that Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time. Even First Thinker Azmuth's voice and appearance has changed on at least three occasions. For all we known Celestialsapiens are out there changing the universe at this very moment. I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human

Ben: Hey

Chadzmuth: responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings? I say nay. Nay I say. Now the magic happens.
 
I don't think simply having a character call the Celestialsapiens "omnipotent" after Ben Again is a good argument for scaling them to the Chrono Navigator. The term "omnipotent" is not necessarily interchangable with "the most powerful thing in the multiverse" because it is often used to mean "something far more powerful than any other parties present." For example, Odin from Marvel Comics is often called omnipotent, despite there being entire pantheons more powerful than he is. This secondary usage of the word is relative, and anybody refering to Celestialsapiens is also clearly using this secondary definition, as indicated by the clear incompatibilities Celestialsapiens have with the primary definition. Writer Matt Wayne is even cited in an interview to have said that a fully decisive Alien X is only omnipotent "in his universe," which also betrays the primary definition right from the get-go. Even in the transcription you provided for Universe VS Tennyson, Chadzmuth goes no further than repeatedly citing Celestialsapiens' tendancies to toy with and severely alter "the universe." The version of "omnipotence" used here sounds like universe-level reality warping by default, and the burden of proof should be on your shoulders to suggest it is more than that.

But even if you can manage to prove "omnipotence" here is referring to more than universal authority, you'll need to do more still to prove Celestialsapiens scale to the Chrono Navigator. A good place to start would be by providing an instance of Professor Paradox claiming Celestialsapiens are the ultimate power after or during the events of Ben Again, preferably in a scene or plotline that also includes the Chrono Navigator. If you can do that much, I think you'd be a lot closer to what many would consider adequate evidence for the necessity of an upgrade. I still have one more hesitation on the matter, but this post is getting a bit long, so I'll just leave the evidence request where it is right now.

I hope that was all phrased in a cohesive and comprehensible manner. If you need me to elaborate on any of those points, just ask.
 
After reading and seeing what Andy has said, I have to agree with this. There's too many statements talking about the general supremacy of the power of the Celestialsapien and I see no reason why this can't be contrasted to something made by Doctor Paradox, who is in no respect or manner above any of their race.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
After reading and seeing what Andy has said, I have to agree with this. There's too many statements talking about the general supremacy of the power of the Celestialsapien and I see no reason why this can't be contrasted to something made by Doctor Paradox, who is in no respect or manner above any of their race.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is a particularly great line of attack either, seeing as Professor Paradox does not necessarily need to be "above them" in order to invent something that can cause more damage than they can. Celestialsapiens have been implied to be vunerable to lower lifeforms in certain ways before. For example, their powers can apparently be absorbed by Osmosians and Darkstar, and even Professor Paradox himself has managed to teleport into Alien X's pocket universe while Ben was talking to Bellicus and Serena, and teleport out with Ben, instantly reverting him back to his human form, even after Bellicus and Serena had agreed to destroy him. For whatever it's worth, writers have also gone on record saying that Celestialsapiens cannot survive on Anur Vladius and cannot survive "omniversal" Destruction (which, given the context, likely means "multiversal" destruction).

I can empathize with the desire to scale Alien X to the Chrono Navigator to some degree, considering how consistently he referred to them as "omnipotent" and "absolute power" and whatnot, but given that all the cited statements thus far happened years before the Chrono Navigator was written as capable of multiversal destruction under specific circumstances, I don't think a solid 2-B or 2-A sounds appropriate. Perhaps "At least Low 2-C, Possibly Higher" would be a good compromise. But Firestorm808 seems to be very good at mining quotes from the show. If he or anybody else can find one from after Ben Again that suggests Professor Paradox still considers Celestialsapiens the most powerful force in existence, even after the writers have introduced the Chrono Navigator's deadly capabilities, I think it would make a more compelling argument for many of us on the fence.
 
It's not really specific circumstances in a way that discredits scaling. Usually the device is with a good guy so it isn't used for destruction, but someone actually willing to destroy things with it is perfectly capable whenever he wishes

I am willing to compromise with a "At least low 2-C, likely 2-B" if people aren't fully on board with the upgrade, I think the evidence is solid enough for the rating to be featured on the profile in some capacity, even if it's not solid
 
I find it hard to believe for Paradox to create an item above the beings he considers the strongest power that exists and wielding absolute power. And no, there's no reason to assume Paradox can make something above the power of the strongest shown species in the series for literally no reason.

People that can absorb powers absorbing power.. Proves what? I am confused. The Anur Vladis thing as well. The first is simply a weakness, the second can be as well or just the writer not knowing what he's talking about - which in general I'll assume because positive or negative I really don't care about author statements in this case, going from saying they aren't the strongest to being the strongest. Not a mark of reliability. Your example doesn't even work, it just means Paradox teleported Ben out fast enough before they could really do anything.

I also fail to see what does time have to do with anything. Author intent is... not really that important here. We aren't suddenly gonna assume that in universe Paradox didn't know what he was talking about because the author didn't think of it like so 2 years ago.
 
The Forge of Creation exists outside the branching Ben 10 Timelines. That's why there's only one Alien X in the whole Ben 10 Verse. This would support them being the greatest power in the Prime Universe and it's alternate timelines.

Power Absorbtion doesn't affect AP.

The writers don't contradict Celestialsapiens being the the strongest when Paradox goes into detail about his Chrono Navigator. He describes the Navigator with words lesser than what he used with Celestialsapiens.

The Chrono Navigator was never mentioned again after Ben Again.

Specific circumstances? You just have to hold it and desire to destroy everything.
 
Something being a singular being in the multiverse does not prove it is the most powerful thing in the multiverse, and it definitely doesn't prove it scales to the Chrono Navigator.

The discussion about power absorbtion was not meant to imply anything about AP. It was being used as an example of why claiming someone "is in no way or respect or manner above the Celestialsapiens" is not a relevant argument. Something does not have to be a reality bending super alien in order for it to be argued that they could feasibly become a threat of the same level or greater by exploiting a trait unique to them.

The Chrono Navigator is also clearly never described with words lesser than those used with Celestialsapiens- at least not in the quotes I've been shown thus far. In fact, I'd argue it looks quite the opposite. Celestialsapiens are repeatedly called "the greatest power in the universe" and consistently described as capable of changing, affecting, and seriously warping "the entire universe" while the Chrono Navigator is described as a threat to "all time and causality itself" or capable of giving "dominon over all space and time" or "every timeline and every alternate reality." Those are much heavier words being used to describe the Chrono Navigator. It's true that Professor Paradox never calls the Chrono Navigator "omnipotent," but there are two different problems with that.

First of all, it would be unusual to call a tool "omnipotent" just for being capable of ending all of time and space in the first place. If you had a button at your disposal, for example, that when pressed, would destroy the entire multiverse, all of time, and any conceivable reality, it would be considered weird to call that button "omnipotent." The word usually implies more versatility than that, like the ability to delete gravity and suddenly give yourself wings and turn the sky purple while having a conversation with George Washington on Neptune as classical music springs to life out of nowhere. Can the Chrono Navigator do anything like that? I know Celestialsapiens can, but it was my understanding that the Chrono Navigator was solely destructive in this scenario, along with the ability to teleport and travel through time. It can't like... turn me into a bag of cheetos with laser eyes while bringing Bugs Bunny to life to play Half-Life 3 with, can it?

Secondly, the word "omnipotent" not being used on something does not necessarily imply that it's not omnipotent. If, for example, you told me now that the Chrono Navigator actually ca do all of the crazy things I listed above, then that alone would still not be solid evidence that Alien X is more powerful than it is, because as far as I can tell, the Chrono Navigator's full capabilities were only discussed once. It would be folly to argue that Alien X is more powerful than the Chrono Navigator just because over the course of four different episodes Celestialsapiens were called "omnipotent" twice while the only discussion about the Chrono Navigator didn't use the word "omnipotent." That's rather silly.

I do apologize for misunderstanding about the "specific circumstances" however. I think something someone said earlier might have gotten me a little turned around. I should really watch the episode myself before commenting here again.

I don't really have any particular issue with Alien X or Celestialsapiens being upgraded. I'm about as neutral on the subject as possible. I just came here because I remembered liking this show when I was younger, but I still don't think these are very solid arguments. I'd lean more toward your side if it weren't for the dates associated with each quote, but it is very concerning that the argument boils down to "Celestialsapiens should be more powerful than the Chrono Navigator because Professor Paradox called them 'the greatest power in the universe' over two years before the Chrono Navigator was written as a weapon capable of destabilizing the multiverse." Like... it's not inconceivable that the writers had things planned out that far ahead and the show was making a definitve comparison between the two. It's not impossible that Professor Paradox failing to call his Chrono Navigator "omnipotent" during his one explanation about it was meant to be a clue that it isn't as powerful as a Celestialsapien. But it seems really shaky. It would be super useful if you had some quotes from Professor Paradox restating that they are the greatest power in the universe after the plotline that established the power of the Chrono Navigator, but without that or some more definitive comparison between the two, I can't personally find myself agreeing with anything beyond "At Least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-B." And I really don't think I'm being unreasonable. I'm sorry if I made people upset, but unless I'm misunderstanding something, it really, really looks like you're trying to scale something to something else by use of some pretty shaky statements, written more than two years apart, that don't correlate to one another.
 
Paradox describing what his Chrono Navigator does at a later date doesn't change the scaling he set up in Ultimate Alien.

At the time, Ultimate Alien Paradox basically said Celestialsapiens posses the greatest power he's ever seen, so:

Unknow = Chrono Navigator's Power < Celestialsapiens "Greatest Power"

When he elaborated on what the Chrono Navigator can do, it just gave the AP scale.

2-B = Chrono Navigator's "Absolute Power" < Celestialsapiens "Greatest Power"

If Omniverse didn't exist, the scale would still be:

Unknow = Chrono Navigator's Power < Celestialsapiens "Greatest Power"
 
Andytrenom said:
I am willing to compromise with a "At least low 2-C, likely 2-B" if people aren't fully on board with the upgrade, I think the evidence is solid enough for the rating to be featured on the profile in some capacity, even if it's solid
Click to expand...
This seems to make sense to me.
 
I do not know. Who are the ones that agree with Andy?
 
I suppose that seems to be enough.
 
From what the other admins/mods said above, they agreed with the 2-B rating.
 
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