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Celestialsapien Upgrade (Scaled to Chrono Navigator)

Firestorm808

Firestorm808

VS Battles
Administrator
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Celestialsapiens should scale above the Chrono Navigator according to Professor Paradox's Statements

Professor Paradox and Azmuth repeatedly call the Celestialsapiens the "greatest power in the universe." Professor Paradox goes as far as to say they are omnipotent, meaning they possess strongest power he's ever seen which includes his Chrono Navigator.

Agreeing Mods/Admins:

Andytrenom, DarkDragonMedeus, Crabwhale, Antvasima, Warren Valio

Other Agreeing Users:

Milly Rocking Bandit, XSOULOFCINDERX, LSirLancelotDuLacl, Paulo.junior.969, InfiniteSped, The God Of Procrastinatio, Greenshifter, Zamasu Cha, EpicCookie12342, AlienXYEAH!, Lucas Carvalho Santiago, DemonicDude, Jimboydejuan12, BellowAaty, Bonus Perso

Reasoning:

We will follow the rules for Statements. Dwayne McDuffie even said "Canon is what happens on the show, not what I (the writers) say." This supports our site rule that writer statements can't contradict the published source material and must be supported by it.

In-Show Statements

  • Ben 10 Alien Force - X = Ben + 2
    • Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.
  • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Map of Infinity
    • Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.
    • Azmuth: He erected a chronal randomization barrier that hides the forge of creation from everyone except the forge's inhabitants and whoever has the map.
  • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - The Forge of Creation
    • Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
    • Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
    • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
    • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
  • Ben 10 Omniverse - Ben Again
    • Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
    • Eo: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't
    • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself.
    • Eo: Merely the key to dominion over all space and time. And thanks to you, It is now mine! [ Laughs evilly ] It's amazing. Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!
    • Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!
    • Professor Paradox: Without Eon to anchor them all, the separate eras of time are progressively snapping back into place.
  • Ben 10 Omniverse - Universe VS Tennyson (Even after the display of the Chrono Navigator, the writers once again have a character refer to the Celestialsapians as Omnipotent. To my knowledge, "omnipotent" has only been used in the show in reference to the species. For obvious reasons, we dont take the wording literally.)
    • Chadzmuth: We all know that Celestialsapiens change the universe as often as my client changes his shirt. Okay, bad example, but my point, and I do have one, is that Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time. Even First Thinker Azmuth's voice and appearance has changed on at least three occasions. For all we known Celestialsapiens are out there changing the universe at this very moment. I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human
    • Ben: Hey
    • Chadzmuth: responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings? I say nay. Nay I say. Now the magic happens.
Some Opposing Arguments

  • The "universe's greatest power" statement shouldn't apply to objects.
    • From Andytrenom: The argument that the statement won't account for weapons is extremely flawed. The statement never talks about the strongest person, it talks about the strongest power so assuming it only refers to an individual's stats and leaves out weapons or is completely baseless.
    • No one said it was a weapon, and it doesn't even matter in the first place. Power is power. Influence on the world around you. The Navigator at full potential is multiversal for giving absolute control over all timelines. Eon can anchor timelines to himself and move them out of place. With said influence over all the timelines, the user runs the risk of destroying all of them as well. It's possible for someone to use it at it's full potential, be multiversal, and not cause everything to be destroyed. In the same episode, Paradox distinctly differentiates "maybe" and "won't" for Clockwork synchronization
  • If Alien X was that strong, why didn't Ben consider using him against Eon when he was about to destroy everything with the Chrono Navigator?
    • From Andytrenom: Being done to look cool won't invalidate in-universe explanations if they exist. But if instead of the narrative itself giving an explanation you have someone inserting their own explanation into the narrative then that's another matter. The problem is that you're taking Alien X not being mentioned in a situation as evidence that Ben didn't think Alien X was powerful enough to solve the situation, when the simple fact is that the episode just never bothered to reference Alien X or tie in his existence to the plot. Belicus and Serena being willing to allow usage of Alien X, Ben understanding this and being prepared to use Alien X, and Ben concluding Alien X wasn't powerful enough to fix the situation, all of this literally comes from an absence of Alien X in the episode. This isn't judging context and narrative, it's just making up explanations when an official answer isn't given why certain plot devices don't get involved in a plot line doesn't always have an in universe explanation, and it's better to not assume they have when what you're working with is the absence of an explanation
  • Isn't Atomic X supposed to be stronger than Alien X, and he got destroyed by the Chronosapien Time Bomb?
    • Atomic X is neither Alien X nor stronger than Alien X. In this thread, we go over reasons for his profile downgrade.
      • Atomic X doesn't possess Serena and Bellicus for more autonomy. With Serena and Bellicus are gone, there is the tradeoff of decreased powers.
        • Atomic X is not countering Maltruants Time Manipulation even though Alien X can "change the very nature of space and time."
      • Atomic X is still stronger than Atomix, but not as strong as Alien X.
    • In this thread, we discuss why "Not only was Atomic X unable to stop it, it would be nonsensical for Ben 10,000 to utilize an alien that is infinitely weaker to stop a multiversal weapon" is an inaccurate statement. This does not affect Tier in any way. Dark649 and Antvasima currently agree.
      • None of the Bens knew about the Time Bomb.
Some Admin Responses Andytrenom

I honestly think scaling from the chrononavigator as opposed to the time bomb is a legit possibility, but that depends what exactly Paradox's remarks on the celestiasapiens was. This side of the arguments wasn't explored nearly as much as the time bomb scaling

Yeah, I do feel this makes a case for scaling to the navigator. If Paradox considers Celestialsapiens to be the greatest source of power then he would at least be placing them above a device he carries with him all the time. Also the forge of creation exists outside the universe to begin with, so the statement couldn't be referring to it being the greatest power within a single universe, more likely it is the greatest power Paradox has encountered anywhere

Antvasima

I am currently leaning towards agreeing with an upgrade, but we preferably need more staff input.

Previous Threads Previous Upgrade to 2-A

Previous Downgrade from 2-A

Continued from: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3443511
 
I knew this was going to made tonight and im going to post my own counter arguments against this entire thing. So everyone should preferably wait on this.

@Starter Pack

Ant said this is fine to make a Staff Only thread for this.
 
Here. This will for now likely be the only comment I can make for this as I have college to deal with. But this will be quite long, so everyone, prepare yourselves. Why Alien X is NOT 2-B and should not be upgraded.

Ben 10 Isn't a 2-A Multiverse
Before I even get to covering Alien X, this needs to be brought up again. Or at the very least, it should be so that people here don't start making confusions about the tiering. The Ben 10 Multiverse is not even a 2-A structure to begin with. The only reason why they have even remained 2-A up until now was because of a simple compromise from The Everlasting's downgrade thread, which I am shutting down now.

The current evidence we use to justify 2-A Ben 10 at all here is the statement made by Paradox saying that there are parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum" . This is not 2-A. "Branching off ad infinitum" doesn't mean that the universes in the Ben 10 Multiverse are flat out infinite in number. It only means that the universes simply branch off and grow in number for infinity. Infinitely growing in number, but still remaining finite in number at all times. Which is, at best, high into 2-B. And it needs to be kept in mind that Paradox just before explicitly said there were only hundreds of timelines, which shuts down any chance of the Multiverse being infinite flat out in scope.

So even IF we take the highest possible interpretation of what Paradox said, and accept Alien X scaling to the Chrono Navigator, it still isn't 2-A. So the weapons and the multiverse need to be downgraded first things first.

Chrono Navigator isn't a 2-B weapon, normally
Lets take a look at Professor Paradoxes current justification for his 2-A (2-B) rating:

"Multiverse level+ with the Chrono Navigator (If misused, the Chrono Navigator can destabilize space-time to the point that "all of existence", referred to the Cosmos which consisting parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum", would be destroyed)"

Key word: If misused. Putting this here so that this isnt missed.

The Chrono Navigator, while indeed a 2-B weapon, isn't regularly at that level. And what do I mean by "regularly"? I mean that its not regularly designed for outputting 2-B energy. The Navigator is normally used as a dimensional-traveling device thats capable of traveling through space-time, reaching alternate universes and dimensions and points in the past, present and future of those dimensions freely without getting lost. The Chrono Navigator can only unleash 2-B power if it is misused in a way that it doesn't normally perform at. Think of this as someone overloading a reactor to cause a planet to explode. The reactor isnt normally tier 5, only when its used out of what its designed to do. So the only way to scale to the reactor is for a character in question to oppose it when it's actually malfunctioning. Not when its used in a way where it isn't outputing tier 5 energy. The same goes for Alien X and the Chrono Navigator

To put it simply, the Chrono Navigator is only a 2-B device when its being used in a way that it isnt normally used as. So even IF we pushed for the highest level interpretation, there is absolutely no evidence that proves Alien X would be superior or even comparable to the device when its used for something it is not supposed to perform at. And now for the next issue.

Paradox's Statements about Alien X
Now, it's come to our attention already that Alien X has statements, made by Paradox, about possessing the most powerful power in the universe. I'll post them below:

  • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Map of Infinity
    • Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.
  • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - The Forge of Creation
    • Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
    • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
    • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent
These are the justifications for Alien X's power scaling above the power of the Chrono Navigator in the first place. However, this argument has multiple holes in it.

First of all, this is a misleading argument. Even with acknowledging Paradox's statements at face value, Alien X scaling above the Navigator through this is not concrete. Why? Because Paradox himself is not physically 2-B. In fact, Paradox himself is not even a tier 2 being whatsoever. With his powers, he is only like....7-A to 4-B at best. Paradox is only tier 2 using the Chrono Navigator, which is completely independant from Paradox's power. So even with using this statement of him saying Alien X has the strongest power in the universe, the kind of scaling that would come from this said statement would only let Alien X scale above individual capabilities. Not stats that are seperate, like weapons. We don't use these statements to scale other characters above weapons without explicit evidence and Alien X is no exception to this.

Second of all, people here need to remember something. The Chrono Navigator, while indeed a 2-B weapon, isn't regularly at that level. And what do I mean by "regularly"? I mean that its not regularly designed for outputting 2-B energy. The Navigator is normally used as a dimensional-traveling device that's capable of traveling through space-time, reaching alternate universes and dimensions and points in the past, present and future of those dimensions freely without getting lost. The Chrono Navigator can only unleash 2-B power if it is explicitly misused in a way that it doesn't normally perform at. It's normal capabilities doesn't allow it to destroy universes, let alone the entire Multiverse. So even with Paradox's statement and scaling Alien X above the Navigator, there isnt any evidence that says Alien X is above the Navigator when it's used in ways that are outside it's normal purposes.

Third, the statements that Paradox makes about Celestialsapiens may not even be referring to AP or strength in the 1st place given the context of them. Look at one of the statements Paradox makes:

  • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
And here's another statement that the OP even posted for me:

Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

Pay close attention to what I bolded out. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" is not Attack Potency or any kind of level of strength. This is implying that Paradox is talking about Celestialsapien's reality-warping abilities rather than their raw strength. And this conclusion is not entirely far-fetched. After all, Celestialsapiens are casual reality warpers, known to alter universes as many times as someone changes their shirt, known to even change the artstyle of the franchise and are capable of a multitude of different abilities. So while im not pushing for this argument, this does need to be kept in mind when taking full context into account instead of just immediately going for scaling Alien X's AP.

Fourth, there's a new point here that I did not previously address. To follow up on my 2nd point about the Chrono Navigator, why would Paradox's statement even apply to the Navigator when it's being misused as a 2-B weapon rather than how its normally used? Up until Eon stole it, Paradox has never used, nor has he ever seen, the Navigator draw on 2-B power before. Power that can destroy the Multiverse to be more clear here. He explicitly only uses the Navigator for dimensional travel and keeps it out of the wrong hands so that the Navigator wouldn't be used for anything else at all, except dimensional travel. The first and only time Paradox has ever seen the Navigator be used at a 2-B level is when Eon steals it from him. So what definite evidence is there that Paradox's statement about Celestialsapiens would apply to the Navigator even when it does something it normally doesn't?

And no, saying "Paradox knows what the Navigator could do and still says Celestialsapiens hold the strongest power" doesn't fix this. Paradox's every intention is to make sure the Navigator is never used at 2-B levels of power at all by keeping it out of the wrong hands. To him, what the weapon could do and what the weapon normally does are 2 different things. If the weapon is normally used as something no where near 2-B, then it's not something with notable power to be compared to literally anything worthwhile in the verse. You can't take something that is only at a certain tier under specific conditions and try to normalize it as some kind of regular standard in-universe to be able to make scaling chains exist.

Fifth, not to mention, "strongest power in the universe" still doesn't automatically mean that it scales above everything within said universe either. I even made a thread about this some time ago and several others agreed that it was too vague to even apply a minimal tier for these kinds of statements. And considering the fact that Ben 10 is far more than just a universe, im not even sure why we would be taking "strongest in the universe" statements as any more than a grain of salt for it when its a Multiverse.

Alien X is never used against the Chrono Navigator
What the sub title says. In the "Ben Again" episode with Eon and the Chrono Navigator, Ben never considers using Alien X as an option to stop Eon from misusing the Navigator. And neither does Paradox. Paradox explicitly instructs Teen and Younger Ben to use Clockwork to send Eon outside of both their points in time and trap him there so that balance would be restored. Why would neither of them even consider using Alien X if he was superior to the Navigators power?

Rebuttals
Now, the paragraphs that you see above are really just covering the points on why I disagree with anything above Low 2-C Alien X. This Rebuttals section is the one where most of my counter-arguments are going to be taking place in response to the OP's arguments and any other possible counter argument I can think of at the moment.

Rebuttal 1: Plot-Induced Stupidity
Im addressing this one first because this will be the most typical argument to be brought up to support Alien X. None of this is Plot-Induced Stupidity. To be very blunt and outright honest, this counter point is being abused as nothing but an excuse and lazy copout to cover up the anti-feat of being inferior to the Chrono Navigator. And to make sure that whoever reads this isn't confused by what my counter-point is, NO, this has nothing to do with Alien X not being used on a whim by Ben to solve any problem or issue that he comes across in-universe. That is obvious PIS so that the show can have actual story progression and that Alien X isn't used to solve every problem in a matter of seconds.

What my counter-argument is here really is that its not PIS for Ben to use Alien X when the situation actually calls for him to be used, which is what we're dealing with here regarding the Chrono Navigator. Plot Induced Stupidity can't be used as an excuse in this case as we are blatantly shown that Ben is willing to try and use Alien X when the situation is big enough to force him to go to those extremes, even if there's a chance Bellicus and Serena wouldn't give him permission to use him. Just like when facing the Anihilaarg, and when facing the Celestialsapien Council in "Universe vs Tennyson", Ben knew he had to use Alien X if he wanted any chance of solving the problem. And he also knew that he had to convince them to give him permission to use Alien X. And he still chose to go with Alien X anyway. Why? Because the situation was grave enough for Ben to be willing to use Alien X. Ben has even shown to be willing to use Alien X in situations that don't call for him to be used, such as when Ben used Alien X against the Rooter kids. So at this point, it should be pretty clear that it is in Ben's character to consider and even use Alien X more times than not using him.

Why would Ben be willing to use Alien X to stop a single universe from being destroyed, or to go against fodder, but then suddenly not even consider using him to stop something that can destroy all of existence? Not just Ben, but Paradox as well? It would have been far more easier to convince Bellicus and Serena (i'll get to this below) to stop a threat that is FAR bigger than the Annihilaarg, by entire light years, if Alien X could actually stop it in the first place.

Not to mention, Plot Induced Stupidity only works for a character if they have the exact opposite of an anti-feat that is applied to them. In other words, you can't argue an anti-feat is PIS without having another instance of a character doing the opposite to suggest the inconsistent feat is PIS. To give an example here, lets use Arceus from Pokemo. We can say its PIS for Arceus to be injured by a meteor because he has far more feats that are considered infinitely superior to that of a meteor. Arceus is consistently considered Multiversal in feats, scaling and overall material that heavily out-weigh the inconsistency to treat it as PIS. Or if we want to use another example, lets use Kaguya Otsutsuki from Naruto. Kaguya was able to be punched by Sakura Haruno of all people. Yet, Sakura is consistently treated as being no where remotely close to Kaguya's level of power. Kaguya has much more feats and scaling that out-weighs Sakura hitting her, so we treat Sakura hurting her as the PIS feat. And I can go on from using characters from the Plot-Induced Stupidity page.

So in order for this to be PIS, you would need another instance of Alien X being used to stop a Multiversal level threat and actually succeeding. And the only remote instance of this is Ben deciding to use Atomic-X to stop another Multiversal threat (i'll also address this below), which failed miserably as he got one shotted and completely stomped.

Without an actual Multiversal feat to go against the anti-feat of not being considered an option to stop the Navigator, you can't argue Ben not using Alien X to be PIS. So this argument should stopped being used here, completely.

Rebuttal 2: Nothing in the episode implies that Alien X wouldn't have worked. Paradox simply tells Ben to use Clockwork to act now and stop Eon.
And again, that is the problem here. Paradox would have never told them to use Clockwork in the first place if all Ben had to do was use Alien X. You need to remember, Clockwork is only an alien that is notably powerful with its time hax abilities. It's actual stats are nothing remarkable even compared to Ben's other aliens, let alone Alien X. Yet, Clockwork was Paradox's first immediate choice for the bens to use. And even with Clockwork, all they could do was trap Eon between their points in time instead of just outright defeating him in a fight.

Why go with an alien that can easily fail to do the job? Why not consider using the strongest alien in your entire arsenal to stop a threat that most certainly calls for using them? Neither he or the bens ever even considered using Alien X against the Navigator and it makes absolutely no sense, unless Alien X was not strong enough to do the job.

Rebuttal 3: Bellicus and Serena not giving Ben permissio
This is the next point that I think will be repeatedly brought up to argue why Ben and Paradox wouldnt consider Alien X an option to stop the Navigator unlike Clockwork. This argument has been repeatedly concluded to be nonsense in this case. It isnt going to fly here.

Because for one, "Ben Again" is an episode that happens much after the episode in Season 1 where Ben was blatantly willing to use Alien X and try to get their permission to use him to save the prime universe (Ben Again is a Season 2 episode), so Ben when facing the Chrono Navigator should have been completely willing to use Alien X if he was an actual option to stop it at all. If he's willing to use him to try and save a single universe, trying to use him to save all of existence is perfectly willingful.

Two, Even IF there was an issue with getting to use Alien X, Bellicus and Serena are not idiots. They are not such morons that they would fail to recognize something that can destroy even them. And before anyone says it, no, "Universe vs Tennyson" is not a counter against this since this is an episode that happens much after "Ben Again" (the episode with the Navigator) and in this episode, Bellicus and Serena's lives were never in danger. The difference between what happened in "Universe vs Tennyson" and what happened with Eon and the Chrono Navigator in "Ben Again" is that the former was only something that risked destroying just Bens universe. Something Bellicus and Serena could care less about as it doesn't effect them in the slightest whatsoever. Not only this, but even when Ben was fighting against the Celestialsapien council, Alien X's life was not in danger at all. Starbeard, a Celestialsapien who's personalities are much more willing to agree than Bens, was kicking the crap out of Alien X, who offered no resistance as of yet since Ben didnt get permission yet, and Alien X was not remotely phased by Starbeards attacks. The fact that another Celestialsapien could not at all harm Alien X, when not attacking or otherwise, would show that Bellicus and Serena were never going to be destroyed by the council. Just Ben's universe. And even at the end of the episodes trial, Bellicus and Serena were still found guilty for creating a universe without permission and they weren't going to be destroyed at all. They were just fined for doing it without authorization. Thats it. They were never going to be destroyed, in battle or otherwise, which would easily explain why they had no worries about Ben fighting to save his universe because it doesn't involve them.

The Navigator is a threat to all of existence, something that would very much so threaten to kill them. While Bellicus and Serena are not so easily made to be on the same page, they are more than so capable of using common sense to not be idotic enough to disagree in stopping something that would destroy the both of them. No matter how much you want to slice this up.

Three, Bellicus and Serena giving Ben permission or not doesn't even shut down most of my point. Even if there was a good chance that they wouldnt agree to help him, Ben was still willing to use Alien X to stop the Anihilaarg. He knew what could have happened and still chose to go with Alien X. So there is absolutely no reason why he wouldnt do the same thing against something that is far more threatening like the Chrono Navigator.

Rebuttal 4: In Ben Again, Older Ben has the Prototype Omnitrix while Younger Ben has the Final product. Younger Ben wouldn't even know who Alien X is in the first place.
This literally doesn't matter at all.

Because first of all, Paradox explicitly instructed both teen and younger ben to sync their omnitrixes together so that one could gain the alien the other didnt have access to. So yes, Teen Ben still had access to Alien X's DNA through the omnitrix's synchronization. Second of all, even if Teen Ben couldn't somehow get access to the DNA, all he would have to do is simply tell Younger Ben to select Alien X and tell him to convince Bellicus and Serena to give him permission to use him. Don't act like explaining powers is somehow impossible here. And third, you can't use this as an argument to say Alien X couldn't be used. Younger Ben had no clue about Clockworks existence and that didn't stop Paradox from suggesting the both of them use him. Alien X is no exception to this.

Rebuttal 5: From Andytrenom: Being done to look cool won't invalidate in-universe explanations if they exist. Snip
This isn't my point as it comes from The Everlasting. But he did have a response for this, which i'll quote since his word on this matter should have a lot of importance:

"That wasn't even what I was addressing. I was addressing the claim that they only decided on Clockwork to show off both Bens' time powers."

Rebuttal 6:Atomic X is neither Alien X nor stronger than Alien X. In this thread, we go over reasons for his profile downgrade.
And the reasons are wrong as The Everlasting and others went over already the last time Alien X got downgraded. Literally all of the reasons why you argue Atomic-X to be weaker than Alien X have absolutely nothing to do with tiering and AP. Decreased powers and lacking resistance to Maltruants Time Manipulation =/= AP. This is strictly talking about abilities.

The only actual argument to argue Atomic-X being weaker than Alien X is him being harmed by Maltruant physically, which Ever explained to be nothing but PIS in his downgrade thread. And no, it being PIS has nothing to do with Alien X being fused with Atomix. It's PIS because of the simple fact that Chronosapiens are known to be physically weaker than other alien races, let alone Celestialsapiens. Even without factoring in Alien X, Atomix scales above Way Big, so it would be Plot Induced Stupidity for Atomic-X either way you slice it.

So for now, I vehemently oppose any upgrade for Alien X based on this information.
 
My reply went into a lot of details that most of your reply covers already, and then some. Except for like 1 thing...

>This even what happened. Ben just activated the Omnitrix, hoping it would give him something useful.

You forget that the failsafe is a thing. And even if this was based on luck, it changes nothing about my points.
 
I'm currently away from home, so I only went over a few bits. I'll be adding more later.
 
Regarding the size of the Ben 10 Multiverse

I have no issues with a 2-B Multiverse.

Regarding the usage of the Chrono Navigator:

While you argue that it's only 2-B when being misused, that isn't even said in the show.

  • Eon: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't.
  • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself. In any event, I couldn't possibly give you the Chrono Navigator even if I wished to do so, because I don't have it.
The power is there, he just doesn't use all of it. It's like owning a Ferari but only driving the speed limit. Paradox only states that anyone else might not control it properly and that it could destroy everything. He still leaves the possibility that it can be controlled without negative effect. As I said before, power is power. The Navigator still contains the power to destroy everything, used or not.

Paradox built the Navigator. He would know what it's capable of.

Paradox's Statements about Alien X

In no way does Paradox's power statement limit itself to living beings.

The Forge of Creation is disjointed from the branching timelines. Celestialsapiens can go to any point in the timelines they wish. They can already do what The Map of Infinity does and what Paradox generally uses the Navigator for. It's not unreasonable that Celestialsapiens would be more powerful than something Paradox made in the Event Horizon with his own pocket watch.

Regarding using Alien X against the Chrono Navigator

From Andytrenom: The problem is that you're taking Alien X not being mentioned in a situation as evidence that Ben didn't think Alien X was powerful enough to solve the situation, when the simple fact is that the episode just never bothered to reference Alien X or tie in his existence to the plot. Belicus and Serena being willing to allow usage of Alien X, Ben understanding this and being prepared to use Alien X, and Ben concluding Alien X wasn't powerful enough to fix the situation, all of this literally comes from an absence of Alien X in the episode. This isn't judging context and narrative, it's just making up explanations when an official answer isn't given.

Regarding Atomic X

There is a lacking of both statements and feats for Atomic X. The only reason for his universal Tier is the assumption that he should be comparable to Alien X. However, my points above show that Atomic X is lacking in areas. It would be more accurate to say that he is simply stronger than Atomix to an unknown degree.
 
Cosmology size is irrelevant, since the topic is scaling to the navigator, doesn't make a difference if it's 2-B or 2-A

The point about the statement not factoring in objects is also wrong, if a person is established to possess the greatest power in the universe as opposed to being the most powerful creature in the universe, he would scale above both a character the statement would logically include, as well as a weapon he commonly possesses. There's literally no reason why it wouldn't. And not being meant as a weapon doesn't change anything either, if an object is capable of performing 2-B destruction, then it's a 2-B source of power, whether or not it tends to be used offensively in a typical situation

No solid opinion on the hax point

As for a statement like this not putting you above everything else in the verse automatically, yes that's right, but in this case the 2-B device belongs to the very person making the statement. With that added context it's reasonable to assume the statement would account for it.

Alien X not being used against Eon I wouldn't personally argue as PIS, I am more of the opinion that Alien X simply had nothing to do with the episode's plot and so it is shaky to form any definite conclusions about why Alien X wasn't used in-universe

If Ben was actually shown to be considering using it briefly, the situation would be different, but if he was simply never mentioned, then assuming Ben thought about using Alien X, concluded that he would get Serena and Bellicus's permission, then kept from using it because he wasn't powerful enough, just wanders into headcanon territory.

It's like if a super skilled warrior defeats multiple characters with insta win abilities, and in each of the confrontations the ability is neither used nor even alluded to, we wouldn't use that in and of itself as evidence for the warrior having resistance to all the abilities, even though logically the opponents should have had no reason to avoid their hax if it would affect the warrior
 
Firestorm's Arguments

Rebuttal 1: Regarding the usage of the Chrono Navigator, "Miused is never said on the show"

Why would it need to be stated when its completely self-explanatory and the content is blatantly obvious? Someone taking the Navigator out of Paradox's hands and not controlling it, which could lead to everything being destroyed, is clearly what we're referring to when saying "misused". Anyone who takes it and tries using it for purposes other than dimensional travel is misusing the Navigator. Why? Because its not meant to be used for anything else but that.

Not to mention, "misused" is literally whats currently used as the justification for the Navigator being 2-B here on Professor Paradox's page.

Rebuttal 2: As I said before, power is power. The Navigator still contains the power to destroy everything, used or not
Refer to what I previously said, here:

"Fourth, there's a new point here that I did not previously address. To follow up on my 2nd point about the Chrono Navigator, why would Paradox's statement even apply to the Navigator when it's 2-B only when being misused rather than how its normally used? Up until Eon stole it, Paradox has never used the Navigator's 2-B power himself, nor has he ever seen the Navigator draw on 2-B power before. Power that can destroy the Multiverse to be more clear here. He explicitly only uses the Navigator for dimensional travel and keeps it out of the wrong hands so that the Navigator wouldn't be used for anything else at all, except dimensional travel. So what definite evidence is there that Paradox's statement about Celestialsapiens would apply to the Navigator even when it does something it normally doesn't?

And no, saying "Paradox knows what the Navigator could do and still says Celestialsapiens hold the strongest power" doesn't fix this. Paradox's every intention is to make sure the Navigator is never used at 2-B levels of power at all by keeping it out of the wrong hands. To him, what the weapon could do and what the weapon normally does''Italic text are 2 different things. If the weapon is normally used as something no where near 2-B, then it's not something with notable power to be compared to literally anything worthwhile in the verse. You can't take something that is only at a certain tier under specific conditions and try to normalize it as some kind of regular standard in-universe to be able to make scaling chains exist."

As I stated before, Paradox has never used the Navigator for 2-B purposes. Nor has he seen it even use 2-B power until Eon stole it. His every intention is to make sure the Navigator is never used at 2-B levels, just for dimensional traveling purposes. If it's never supposed to be used at anything no where near 2-B, then why assume it's power under specific conditions would be compared to another beings power?

Your Ferari example is a false equivalence to this as this is not about potential, but about fuctions. A Ferari only driving a given speed limit is it just holding back what it can do while still doing an action it is designed to do. The Navigator's main purpose is to freely travel through universes, not destroy or control them. It can only do the latter when its under specific conditions of being able to do it, as in being misused by someone who cannot control it. It's normal power isnt 2-B unless misused, so you can't normalize it to the extent of making it the same as any other power source in Ben 10 to try and make a scaling chain exist.

And even if im wrong here, there are still issues with context that im going to address later.

Rebuttal 3: Paradox's Statements about Alien X; In no way does Paradox's power statement limit itself to living beings. Snip
There's a huge problem with this argument though. Celestialsapiens being able to do what the Map of Infinity and Forge of Creation do, easily, has nothing to do with being more powerful than them. What the Map of Infinity and Chrono Navigator generally do is travel through universes and points in time. Thats a hax ability, not a feat related to raw power.

Your taking a comparison of X that has nothing to do with Y and connecting them to try and make them mean the same thing when that isn't how this works.

Rebuttal 4: Regarding using Alien X against the Chrono Navigator; From Andytrenom: snip
Except, the thing is, Ben has been shown to do this before. He has been shown to consider Alien X an option to solve a problem, consider getting permission from Bellicus and Serena, and concluding that Alien X is or isn't the answer to solve said problem. He did this in "Universe vs Tennyson" when battling against Starbeard and Rook suggested he turns into Alien X, with Ben saying he already knew that. Or when facing against the Rooter brothers and deciding to go with Alien X.

Ben has been shown to factor in using Alien X when facing a difficult-enough situation and thinking about whether or not Alien X would solve the problem. So there isn't any assumptions being made here with Ben not considering Alien X an option to stop the Chrono Navigator, especially since Ben previously used Alien X to stop the Anihilaarg, which would make him fully aware of Alien X's usefulness later down the line.

Rebuttal 5: Regarding Atomic X; There is a lacking of both statements and feats for Atomic X
Atomic-X isn't lacking anything though. Him being fused with Alien X in the first place is what would make him superior. All of your points on why he would be weaker, again, have nothing to do with raw AP and strength but hax abilities. The only actual point to suggest Atomic X is weaker is for being harmed by Maltruent, which was concluded to be PIS since even without factoring in Alien X, Atomix would still scale above Aliens that are stronger than Maltruent and Chronosapiens in general, like Way big. There isn't any real counter-argument against Atomic-X being superior to Alien X in AP.

Andytremon's Arguments

Rebuttal 1: No solid opinion on the hax point
Then that is what i'll repeat on this note first because that is the most important part of this argument. We don't have any actual concrete evidence that Paradox's statements about Celestialspaiens's "power" is even referring to Attack Potency or raw strength in the first place. Out of all those statements, we have 2 statements, one from Paradox and one from Serena herself, that bring a different perspective of context to this regarding "power".

Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.

Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

Pay close attention to what I bolded out in both statements. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" have nothing to do with Attack Potency or any kind of raw strength. Thats explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation. Serena and Paradox here are implying that Celestialsapien's abilities are what constitutes as the greatest power in the universe, not their strength. And while im not saying they are 100% referring to this, this definitely brings into context about what "power" is being referred to when it comes to Celestialsapiens. And it talking about hax instead is a pretty reasonable conclusion to consider when Celestialsapiens are not only known for having many kinds of abilities compared to other alien races, but they are mostly known for altering universe's (a hax feat) as many times as someone changes their shirt. They even constantly change the art-style of the franchise like with Azmuth. All of which is strictly a matter of abilities, not strength.

So before anything else is done, we need to take into consideration that "greatest power in the universe" may not even being referring to raw strength at all, but hax abilities, as 2 statements and what Celestialsapiens commonly do imply. The problem with the upgrade here is that it is taking these statements and automatically assuming the context of "greatest power" is talking about Attack Potency to scale Alien X above everything when no concrete evidence actually suggests this context is the case. If anything, only the opposite has been put into detail.

Rebuttal 2: If Ben was actually shown to be considering using it briefly, the situation would be different
But Ben has been shown to consider Alien X before in the franchise when facing a grave enough situation. I'll just quote what I told Firestorm:

"Except, the thing is, Ben has been shown to do this before. He has been shown to consider Alien X an option to solve a problem, consider getting permission from Bellicus and Serena, and concluding that Alien X is or isn't the answer to solve said problem. He did this in "Universe vs Tennyson" when battling against Starbeard and Rook suggested he turns into Alien X, with Ben saying he already knew that. Or when facing against the Rooter brothers and deciding to go with Alien X.

Ben has been shown to factor in using Alien X when facing a difficult-enough situation and thinking about whether or not Alien X would solve the problem. So there isn't any assumptions being made here with Ben not considering Alien X an option to stop the Chrono Navigator, especially since Ben previously used Alien X to stop the Anihilaarg, which would make him fully aware of Alien X's usefulness later down the line."

Its what I said before really. Ben has been shown to consider Alien X when the situation is grave enough to where he needs to use him to resolve it. And even then, considering the fact that Alien X literally saved him and his universe easily from the Anihilaarg before the events of "Ben Again", there's no reason we can't say Ben didn't consider Alien X an option the Navigator, something that is FAR more threatening than the Anihilaarg by entire leaps and bounds.
 
Again, regarding Ben using Alien X against the Navigator.

You are trying to draw motive from absence, but I will play along with that.

The Bens could have turned into Alien X, but they would once again risk wasting time. The would transform, do nothing for a moment to debate, and give Eon enough time to destoy everything. It would be the same situation as last time.

Whether or not the Navigator would harm Alien X is unknown. The end result is the same. There is a period of time for Ben to speak to the two heads.

By the time Ben spoke to Bellicus and Serena after transforming in S01E07, the Anihilaarg was given time to detonate. The same could have happened with Eon. Would Serena and Bellicus agree to help? Maybe. How long would it take to agree? It's unknown. Ben wouldn't want to take that risk, possibly giving Eon time to destroy everything.

  • S01E07 So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies
    • The Anihilaarg is about to explode.
    • Ben hopes for a transformation to stop the detonation and luckily turns into Alien X
      • Ben: All right, listen, Omnitrix, I don't want Goop. I don't want Stinkfly. Just give me something I can use to diffuse this thing so we can all get on with our lives.
    • Alien X does nothing.
    • The Anihilaarg detonates and starts destroying everything.
    • By the time Ben is speaking to Bellicus and Serena, it already detonated.
  • S02E08 Ben Again
    • Alien X is not mentioned at all in the episode.
    • Eon is actively trying to destroy everything.
    • Ben asks Paradox for help, and he suggests Clockwork.
  • S06E08 Universe vs. Tennyson
    • Ben is forced to fight a Celestialsapien.
    • Ben considers using Alien X and accidentally transforms into him. Losing the fight isn't an immediate danger like Eon and the Navigator.
      • Rook: Now would be a very good time for you to turn into Alien X.
      • Ben: Don't you think I know that? I would if I could, but I can't. So I-
    • Alien X stands there doing nothing for a periood of time.
      • Rook: Uh, Ben?
      • Rook Blonko: Why is Ben not defending himself?
      • Starbeard: His dual consciousness must deliberate and reach an agreement before Alien X can do anything.
      • Rook Blonko: How long will that take?
      • Starbeard: Eternity, give or take a few eons.
 
Rebuttal: The Bens could have turned into Alien X, but they would once again risk wasting time. The would transform, do nothing for a moment to debate

And that is where im going to stop reading on the first point. Because I already addressed, in great detail, why this would not be the case. There wouldn't be any debate at all to use Alien X against the Navigator. Why? Because Serena and Bellicus are more than capable of using common sense to recognize something that can even destroy the both of them, and give Ben permission to stop it from doing harm to them.

You keep trying to push this idea that Bellicus and Serena would be stupid enough to ignore such a threat when literally nothing proves this and to argue this point is to throw out any bit of common sense that either of them would have, difficult to agree with or not, which is ridiculous.

And using the Anihilaarg as an example is a super false equivalancy to this when unlike the Chrono Navigator, the Anihilaarg was blatantly unable to do any remote harm to Alien X whatsoever, even in an unresponsive state. And with the additional fact that it was only threatening Ben's universe and nothing else, Bellicus and Serena debating on whether or not they should save something that has nothing to do with them is very reasonable.
 
I just want to point out that the "there would be no debate because serena and bellicus would be destroyed" is a terrible argument because of a very simple reason, it assumes they would be destroyed

What is this argument about again? Whether Alien X is as strong as the Navigator, and what does them being destroyed imply? That he is weaker. You are free to believe that, but when trying to prove something, one cannot use that which is they are trying to prove as a premise. This is a clear fallacy. You cannot take the two being in danger as a fact both parties have to abide by, when the interpretation you're arguing against would suggest they wouldn't be in danger of death anyway
 
The interaction of Alien X and the Chrono Navigator can go two ways.

  • Alien X is harmed by the Navigator (I don't believe so because of the above Paradox Statements)
    • Alien X would have to decide whether or not to be destroyed.
      • You assume that Serena and Bellicus will automatically say yes because they have a sense of self preservation.
      • The only showing of a similar situation is from a the game Vilgax Attacks where they say:
        • Alien X: Alien X!
        • Bellicus: Look, Serena, if it isn't Ben Tennyson!
        • Serena: Why, Bellicus, I propose that it is Ben Tennyson. Seconded?
        • Ben Tennyso: We don't have time for your nonsense, you two! If you don't do what I say, the Omnitrix is going to be destroyed with you in it!
        • Bellicus: All in favor of being destroyed?
        • Ben Tennyso: Gah!
      • Being destroyed is actually being considered. It's very within their character and personality to debate the issue. Vilgax Attacks can be argued as being canon as an alternate timeline. In Ben 10000 Returns, Paradox mentions the post-credit scene of the Ben 10: Vilgax Attacks timeline, where Albedo was frozen as Alien X for over a year.
    • They could ignore him outright
      • Serena: Ben Tennyson. Motion to greet our honored guest and hear him out.
      • Bellicus: Motion denied. Motion to ignore him for a thousand years, at which point we set him on fire for a second thousand years.
    • Old arguments could be put forth before new ones unless decided.
      • Bellicus: Ohhh. "Ben, Ben, Ben. " Why don't you worry about me for a change?
      • Serena: Oh, you know I do.
      • Ben: I propose we come to a vote on saving the world.
      • Bellicus: That's new business, kid. We still got old business from before you showed up.
      • Ben: Well, hurry!
      • Ben: I say we switch to new business till the Earth isn't in crisis.
      • Serena: Seconded!
      • Bellicus: Motion carried.
    • Ben would then have to convince the two why they (Bellicus, really) should care to fix everything.
  • Alien X is not harmed by the Navigator
    • Same list as above.
    • Ben would have to convince the two why they (Bellicus, really) should care to fix everything.
      • X = Ben + 2
        • Ben: Yeah, that's great, but the Earth's going to be destroyed any minute.
        • Serena: I feel sorrow. Billions of lives will be lost.
        • Bellicus: Ah, they probably got it coming. Get it, genius? We deliberate. Now you try it.
      • Forge of Creation
        • Ben: Yeah, I'm totally sorry. I need your power to save
        • Bellicus: I don't care!
        • Ben: This is bigger than you and me. The whole universe is at stake.
        • Bellicus: And?
      • So Long and...
        • Ben: Wait. The universe really is being destroyed?
        • Bellicus: Must they make so much noise?
        • Serena: It is futile but a bit sad to see them go.
 
Rebuttal 1: I just want to point out that the "there would be no debate because serena and bellicus would be destroyed" is a terrible argument because of a very simple reason, it assumes they would be destroyed

Because them being destroyed by it is the default assumption until you can actually prove they wouldn't be destroyed by it in the first place. Like with everything else, we go with a negative until a positive can be proven, the positive being that Bellicus and Serena wouldn't be destroyed by the Navigator. I don't have to prove they would be destroyed by it. The burden of proof is on you to prove that they wouldn't be destroyed, and until that burden is met, we go with the negative. And this is especially true when Alien X is never actually used against the Navigator but is only even remotely suggested to be on it's level through sheer statements, which as I said before, can very well be taken out of context to make up a scaling chain to begin with.

Besides, the Navigator was going to target and destroy everything in existence, which would be the entire Multiverse. Which would blatantly include Serena and Bellicus as well. So no, its not even assuming they would be destroyed. Bellicus and Serena, no matter how much you would want to slice this up, are not stupid enough to ignore a threat that can very much target or even destroy the both of them. And I put "or" here because them even being targetted by something else is still grounds for them to give Ben permission to stop.

Rebuttal 2: You assume that Serena and Bellicus will automatically say yes because they have a sense of self preservation. The only showing of a similar situation is from a Non-Canon game Vilgax Attacks where they say
This is extremely wrong for 2 very big reasons.

First of all, you can't use the "Only similar situation is in Non-Canon" argument to go against my own argument, and then completely spin it around and say "even though this is non-canon, it shows they have no care for being destroyed" in an attempt to support your own argument. Non-canon is non-canon. It's either one or the other. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Second of all, this situation appears to be no different than from the trial in "Universe vs Tennyson". Vilgax of all people, as opposed to another Celestialsapien, is unable to harm Alien X in any way. So it's incredibly doubtful that Bellicus and Serena would actually acknowledge him as an actual threat that could harm or destroy the both of them.

Rebuttal 3: They could ignore him outright
Considering the fact that neither of them immediately ignored Ben when he asked for permission to stop the Anihilaarg, I won't bother too much with this point here.

Rebuttal 4: Old arguments could be put forth before new ones unless decided.
Super false equivalancy here too. Ben was asking them for permission to save his planet. Even worse than asking them to save his universe. A huge difference between this and asking them to save everything in existence from being targetted and destroyed, which would include the both of them.

Anything that doesn't have anything to do with Serena and Bellicus would quite clearly spark a debate, so I don't know why you keep using these circular points to suggest Bellicus and Serena wouldn't give him permission against the Navigator.

Rebuttal 5: Ben would then have to convince the two why they (Bellicus, really) should care to fix everything.
Because again, he wouldn't need to convince them of giving him permission of stopping something that is a threat, even to them. Bellicus and Serena may have difficulty agreeing, but they have common sense. And if Ben can convince them of giving him permission to stop something that has nothing to do with them,like his own universe, then convincing them of stopping something that would actually threaten the both of them is a very easy task in comparison to that.

Not to mention, Ben has shown to use their squabbling against them to actually gain permission to use Alien X anyway.

Rebuttal 6: X = Ben + 2 / Forge of Creation / So Long and...
See above. Literally all of these points are false equivalencies due to the simple fact that there is a huge difference between Bellicus not caring to save others and him suddenly not caring to save himself.

Ben's planet and the universe have nothing to do with Bellicus. Not even other Celestialsapiens. Why would him not caring about saving them suddenly mean he wouldn't even recognize a threat that can target or even destroy himself? That literally makes no sense whatsoever.
 
Kukui, Andy, and Firestorm either need to come to an agreement, or we need more staff input, in order to settle this.
 
I messaged more Staff to come just now.

However, and no offense, but im under the impression that hardly anyone is actually reading my counter arguments and are just immediately agreeing with the upgrade. Because there are circular arguments that i've had to repeat, like, 5 times now.
 
"Because them.... that Bellicus and Serena wouldn't be destroyed by the Navigator."

You do not seem to get what the giant issue is with your assertion here.

In a debate, if someone argues X and it has certain implications, and another argues Y which has its own set of implications, you cannot start by assuming the implications of Y are false and that of X are true. The premise for your argument has to be constant regardless of whichever side may be right, otherwise you just fall into circular reasoning "this thing which won't be true if your view is correct, proves that your view is incorrect"

It doesn't need to be assumed serena and Bellicus are 100% going to survive for your argument to be invalid, your argument relies on the opposition to be wrong from the beginning so that's why it straight up doesn't work as an argument, and the rest of your post also falls apart for this same reason

Also, this isn't even the only thing wrong. As pointed out by another user named Greenshifter, the ben with access to Alien X was his child version, not the one who's familiar with him, this makes the argument that Ben would use Alien X because of his prior experiences even less solid
 
Well, I suppose that it is probably best if we go with his suggested solution then.
 
Rebuttal 1: In a debate, if someone argues X and it has certain implications, and another argues Y which has its own set of implications, you cannot start by assuming the implications of Y are false and that of X are true.

Except, we very much can assume the implications of X are true in a case like this if the implications of X are the negative and the implications of Y are the positive. Which from what im seeing here, they are. Bellicus and Serena being destroyed by the Navigator is the negative claim. The both of them not being destroyed by it is the positive claim. And like I said before, the negative is the default assumptio to be taken from the beginning until the positive is proven because the positive is where the burden of proof lies. We assume the negative is 100% correct until the positive from the opposition debunks the negative, therefore making the positive 100% correct instead. Without actual evidence of them surviving against the Navigator, the positive IS wrong from the beginning and we are left with the negative in the end.

Rebuttal 2: As pointed out by another user named Greenshifter, the ben with access to Alien X was his child versio
Already debunked this since my 2nd reply to this thread. Re-quoting what I said before:

"This literally doesn't matter at all.

Because first of all, Paradox explicitly instructed both teen and younger ben to sync their omnitrixes together so that one could gain the alien the other didnt have access to. So yes, Teen Ben still had access to Alien X's DNA through the omnitrix's synchronization. Second of all, even if Teen Ben couldn't somehow get access to the DNA, all he would have to do is simply tell Younger Ben to select Alien X and tell him to convince Bellicus and Serena to give him permission to use him. Don't act like explaining powers is somehow impossible here. And third, you can't use this as an argument to say Alien X couldn't be used. Younger Ben had no clue about Clockwork's existence and that didn't stop Paradox from suggesting the both of them to use him. Alien X is no exception to this."
 
Also, I just want to repeat this point that I brought up before since this is the most important part of this upgrade and even Andy himself admitted he didn't have a solid opinion on it.

^We need to have an actual opinion on this because 50/50, Alien X wouldn't even have any justification of scaling to the Navigator if this bit is wrong like I suggested it might be.
 
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