• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Alien X (And others) downgrade

Status
Not open for further replies.
The_Everlasting

The_Everlasting

VS Battles
Joke Battles
Retired
Messages
10,394
Reaction score
3,348
So after a super messy thread a long time ago, Alien X was upgraded to 2-A on the premise of the Omnitrix being stated to be the strongest weapon in the universe, which would be inclusive of the Chronosapien Time Bomb and the Chrono Navigator.

However, this has several holes.

First of all, while the Omnitrix has been stated to be the strongest weapon in the universe, nothing says this is because of Alien X. In fact, according to Dwayne McDuffie (A former writer for Alien Force and Ultimate Alien before his unfortunate passing in 2011), Alien X isn't even the strongest alien in the Omnitrix. While the link to such a statement has been taken down, it was used on the Ben 10 wiki and has been referenced across various forums, increasing the likelihood of its legitimacy.

Furthermore, Atomic-X, a fusion within the Biomnitrix (Think the Omnitrix but it fuses aliens Ben has) composed of Atomix and Alien X, got completely one-shot by the Chronosapien Time Bomb. But if he was stronger than it, that shouldn't have happened.

"But Ever, this is Atomic-X, not Alien X."

That's the thing, it's not just a half-Celestialsapien or something, it's literally taking Alien X and fusing him with another alien. Assuming Atomic-X is 5-A is to assume that Ben literally weakened Alien X by three degrees of infinity just for a few extra powers. It's extremely ludicrous and makes no sense whatsoever.

Even without all that, the Ben 10 multiverse might not be infinite anyways. The closest I could find to a statement on such a thing was in this episode. At around 8:55, Paradox says that timelines branch off the main one "ad infinitum". However, not only is this just a figure of speech meaning "on and on", he explicitly stated just before that there are only hundreds of timelines, which is only fairly high-end 2-C. Thus, even if we take the scaling as legit, Alien X would only be 2-C.

With all this in mind, I suggest that Alien X, at the very least, gets downgraded to Low 2-C (For effortlessly recreating the destroyed universe with a wave of his hand), and that the Chronosapien Time Bomb and Chrono Navigator get downgraded to 2-C.
 
Yes, I recently heard about these changes from Ever as well, so I'm in agreements with them. Makes sense to me.
 
"In fact, according to Dwayne McDuffie (A former writer for Alien Force and Ultimate Alien before his unfortunate passing in 2011), Alien X isn't even the strongest alien in the Omnitrix."

Prof. Paradox did say that Celestialsapiens aren't even close to gods...

That leads to the question if there are literal gods in the Omnitrix. Huh...
 
I agree that Alien X doing a fusion with another alien should make him stronger, or at least not 3 degrees of infinitely weaker. In chat you made the analogy of this being like SSB Vegito being 5-A.

So I can get behind Alien X being downgraded. However I still think that the multiverse should stay infinite and weapons stay 2-A.

The "hundreds" statement comes from the idea of hundreds of timelines branching "ad infinitum." He doesn't say that there are only hundreds of timelines. Rather hundreds are created infinitely. Also didn't you mention in the same scene they also refer to the multiverse as having "countless" timelines in chat.

"Ad infinitum" and "countless" are often figures of speech. However I think under the context of the cosmology being scientifically explained by one of the most reliable sources as well as clearly being based off scientific concepts that widely believe in infinite universes, I think they can be taken a bit more seriously in these instances.

If most others disagree with me there I'm fine with that. And keep in mind I'm still fine with Alien X being downgraded, just uncertain if the multiverse and weapons should be as well.
 
I agree with this too

This would also affect the Naljians' low-end, right?

Edit: Nevermind, i guess it does not affects them
 
"Also didn't you mention in the same scene they also refer to the multiverse as having "countless" timelines in chat."

That was just my memory being faulty. He only said hundreds.

But I'd be okay with the 2-A weapons staying 2-A if others are.
 
Alright. "Hundreds of timelines branching off ad infinitum" is still an infinite timeline statement. It's just whether or not you want to take it literally.
 
Also even if "ad infinitum" is just his way of using figure of speech to emphacize the sheer continuation of the timeline branch, I highly doubt he'd use such langauge if the hundreds of timelines only ever continued 4 or less times throughout all of history. 2-B should be the low end for the weapons and multiverse IMO. Not 2-C. But again, I'm fine with what the majority want.
 
I don't care about upgrades or downgrades but fusion aliens are confirmed to be far weaker then their original forms. That was explain in the first episode they appeared in, you can't just call it ridicules, it doesn't matter if it is that's how it works.

(Oh that sounded rude, but I hope that didn't sound rude. Don't see how else I could have worded that but please know I'm not trying to be rude to you but if it does sound rude I'm sorry)

I don't mind the downgrade but the creator saying Alien X isn't the strongest can't be taken seriously if there is no link to the statment unless you can find it that is.

Also didn't Clockwork recreate the multiverse who Alien X should be stronger then? Also didn't one of the writers say Alien X could destroy the Multiverse if he wanted to or am I misremembering that?

I'm not against any downgrade but I just want everything to make sense at the very least.
 
Even if that's true, Atomic-X would need to be three degrees of infinity weaker just for a few extra powers. It's juts no benefit.

No, Paradox said hundreds, not Ben 10,000.

The statement was taken down, yes, but it definitely existed, you can't deny it based on those premises.

Clockwork reversed time. It's hax at best.

That statement was a fairly coy and somewhat joking answer.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I agree, I brought up that whole Atomic X getting one shotted by the time bomb thing but it was brushed aside but why would Ben 10,000 make Alien X weaker? That's dumb, he would have just turned into Alien X and stopped it but he chooses Atomic X.
Click to expand...
CIS.

Also: "First of all, while the Omnitrix has been stated to be the strongest weapon in the universe, nothing says this is because of Alien X. In fact, according to Dwayne McDuffie (A former writer for Alien Force and Ultimate Alien before his unfortunate passing in 2011), Alien X isn't even the strongest alien in the Omnitrix. While the link to such a statement has been taken down, it was used on the Ben 10 wiki and has been referenced across various forums, increasing the likelihood of its legitimacy."

You can't use unofficial sources like the Ben 10 wiki or other unofficial forums to validate a statement from a former writer of the series.
 
What kind of CIS does it take for the smart and not arrogant Ben 10,000 to do something like I described?

The fact that the statement is widely acknowledged and I've see the link shows the statement does exist, it just can't be found.
 
Here's the thing. Someone find a direct statement or showing of Atomic X being weaker than Alien X. If no one can, then we assume Atomic X is stronger or at least somewhat within the same realm of existence of comparable.
 
CIS is basically "A character that make a stuped thing for the sake of the plot, regardless if said characters is the smartes of the verse".

Still, if the statement was from a former writer who didn't even work on Omniverse, then it can't be take it.
 
If Ben 10,000 doing something is completely stupid and nonsensical, and there's no evidence of him doing it, then we assume he didn't do it. Not that CIS made him do it.

If I said Vegeta purposely let Goku go Super Saiyan before him and just lied about being mad about it. And you say there's no way he'd ever do such a thing in character and that there's no evidence he did. I can't just say he did it cause of CIS.
 
No, that's PIS. CIS is stupid/nonsensical moments caused by the character's own personality, like Katara never using bloodbending or the Batman never going for the kill.

Dwayne was dead before Omniverse came out. He was a very popular writer who answered a lot of fan questions and gave legitimate answers. There's no reason we shouldn't take his word into account just because he didn't work on Omniverse.
 
Okay thanks thought I might get in trouble for that but Atomic-X being three degrees of infinity weaker is very much worth it still. Ben can't control Alien X and when is he ever going to fight someone that powerful? He thoughts still become reality just at a much, much, much, weaker level.

Also I now konw what Paradox said, I edited my comment because I realized I'm stupid.

How do you know that statment ever existed I would like some proof at the least since that's not exactly a small statment to make. How does Clockwork reverse time to restore a multiverse I'm pretty sure that's not how that works.

The writers said Alien X can destroy the multiverse but it would take him six thoughts, this was rejected by the wiki because it would take him six thoughts .

Why does destroying the multiverse taking six thoughts make it not count? (Just curious)
 
Ben ca, though. Serena and Bellicus gave him full control in Omniverse, besides, I don't see why that's relevant.

Because I've seen a link to it (Which is now dead) and tons of places have used it when talking about Alien X, including the Ben 10 wiki.

Clockwork's powers are centered around reversing time, that's how he brought the multiverse back.

Because the answer wasn't really serious.
 
If somebody does something very stupid and out of character, yeah it's CIS. But there is no evidence they actually did something very stupid and out of character, then you can't assume they did and call it CIS.
 
How was the answer not serious that doesn't make sense to me. They asked if Alien X can destroy the multiverse and said yes but with six thoughts. If the statment was joking or not serious then tell me why don't just say it's not serious. Maybe it's just me but it's hard for me to read people.

Ben can't control Alien X, it's just easier for him to make them agree at certain times. That's why Ben still doesn't use Alien X it just isn't worth the trouble to argue with them.

To destroy a multiverse you have to destroy it's space and time correct? How can he reverse time when it doesn't exist?

Also that statment from Dwayne can't be accepted it's like accepting a statment that Hideki Kamiya says that DMC4 Dante is weaker or stronger then Sparda, he has no control on that Dante his statment is invalid. Ben 10 changed a lot during Omiverse.

However like I said if Alien X is still to be downgraded that's fine.
 
There's also the fact that they said Omniverse along with it.

After Universe vs. Tennyson, Serena and Bellicus resigned full control to Alien X to Ben, as shown in Weapon XI.

Because it's fiction. Clockwork strictly did it by reversing time, IIRC.

Just because Ben 10 changed a lot in Omniverse isn't a valid reason. Also, Hideki Kamiya is infamous for almost never giving a serious response on Twitter, whereas Dwayne always gives informative answers.
 
@Ryu

Aahh.

@Ever

Sorry, but if you can't find the link to the statement, we can't only rely in outsite forums to make the revision.

Even then. "Dwayne was dead' before Omniverse came out. He was a very popular writer who answered a lot of fan questions and gave legitimate answers. There's no reason we shouldn't take his word into account just because he didn't work on Omniverse."

This is actually the reason of why we can't.
 
The link to such a statement is dead, but it's sprung up on several websites. If it was fake, it wouldn't have.

That's the equivalent of not using George Lucas Word to God up to the early 2000's because he stopped working on Star Wars afterwards. It's unjustified and acts as if Omniverse is entirely separate from AF and UA.
 
Dwayne version of Alien X not being the strongest was retconned that's why it's not on the wiki. Wyatt changed this and made Alien X the strongest in the watch.

I remember a guide book of omiverse saying Alien X was the strongest I'll try to find it for you.

Also you clearly don't understand, ever even if Hideki was a serious man it still doesn't matter, he has no control over DMC after 1 so any statment he makes about 4 is wrong no matter what.
 
Where? The closest I have found is Derrick saying that Alien X is the strongest alien in Ben's arsenal, but Ben can't use literally every alien in the Omnitrix.

Again, the strongest alien in Ben's arsenal or the strongest alien in the entire Omnitrix?

That's literally not how it works.
 
No it's not unjustified in the slightlest. The show was retconned many times and statments made by Dywane were ignored.

Your George Lucas comparison is wrong if he has no control of Star Wars then it doesn't matter what he says because retcons exist. Heck Disney destroyed the EU, George can't suddenly make it canon again no matter what he says.
 
Unless you can explicitly prove Dwayne's statement was retconned, we can't assume it was.

What you're saying is that we can't use Dwayne's Word of God just because he died and isn't working on Ben 10 anymore, which is asinine.
 
Okay I'm getting off track, Everlasting I'm droping this and just saying your right you know more then me.

However you still have to explain why Alien X destroying the multiverse answer wasn't serious. It shouldn't matter that it said omniverse because he also said multiverse.

It's not like we don't know what they're talking about.
 
This is just like when people assumed the Ben 10 multiverse being infinite was retconned cause they didn't want an upgrade. We only declare something is retconned when it's directly shown to be so. Unless there is direct evidence of Alien X not being the strongest alien in the Omnitrix statement being retconned, we don't assume it was retconned. Of course a source for this statement would also be prefereable.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
Let's give it a shot | Atomic-X (Ben 10) Upgrade
2
Replies
41
Views
2K
Firestorm808
Firestorm808
Aolphl
  • Locked
About Alien X's Attack Potency (Ben 10)
Replies
29
Views
2K
Firestorm808
Firestorm808
NXCHT.66
Ben 10 : Alien X and CPs small addition
Replies
16
Views
1K
LordGriffin1000
LordGriffin1000
Alien X and Celestialsapiens small hax and Tier addition
Replies
20
Views
2K
Firestorm808
Firestorm808
DonkeySlayer06
Ben 10 Big Alien X Update!
Replies
19
Views
3K
Celestial_Scaler25
Celestial_Scaler25
Back
Top