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Restored Final Dragon Ball GT/Non-Canon Revision

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Dark649

Dark649

VS Battles
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Due to a glitch, this thread disappeared, so i had to remake the page.

Continuing from this thread, WindGodAcheron proposed starting from here and onwards that Omega Shenron/Super Yi Xing Long Minus Energy Ball, SS4 GT Gogeta and the Universal Spirit Bomb should be 3-A / Universe level.

He also proposed that physically Omega Shenron/Super Yi Xing Long and Second Training Hero should receiven an at least o ap, dura and striking. But he said that it's a best case scenario.

His blog on the subject can be read here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...gon_Ball_GT:_Elaborating_on_the_God-Tiers'_AP

This thread is only about four profiles and i also said that we may should decide a rating for EoGT Goku, but the main topic should be discussed first.

  • Agrees: Nedge, BlackeJan, Endless, Aguile, Kepekley23, Dark649, DarkDragonMedeus, Matthew Schroeder, SSJRyu1, Redgrave, Antvasima, Assaltwaffle, KLOL056
  • Disagrees: AKM Sama
  • Neutral: Glassman, Warren Valion (leaning towards agreeing)
 
As I was going to say in the previous thread before being deleted, if the arguement is still being that was going to destroy the universe despite that it woukd take to Long a considerable amount of time then I don't see why it should change now.
 
Antoniofer said:
As I was going to say in the previous thread before being deleted, if the arguement is still being that was going to destroy the universe despite that it woukd take to Long a considerable amount of time then I don't see why it should change now.
Click to expand...
I'm almost done with the blog, but the main reasons are:

  • The attack was stated twice by the characters to be the negative energy of the Evil Dragons heavily condensed and concentrated into a focal point.
  • Elder Kaioshin stated that the universal destruction that'd ensue would be an effect of the negative energy on Earth being so concentrated and full that it'd overflow, resulting in some small bits of negative energy corroding the rest of the universe and destroying it. Which means that, despite its area of effect, the attack's condensed power source is 3-A.
Think of it as this:

  • Universe Busting = 1,000,000,000 units
  • Minus Power Ball (condensed power) = 1,000,000,000 units
  • Star busting = 0.1 units
  • Minus Power Ball (overflown/radiated units) = 0.1 units
After the entire universe has been destroyed, the condensed negative energy source would have been fully depleted
 
Another example: if a character fires an energy blast and the energy blast destroys a galaxy but then disappears alongside said galaxy - then said energy blast is not any higher than 3-C, because its energy is fully depleted by performing such a feat.

If a character fires an energy blast and said blast goes on to destroy 52 galaxies before its energy is fully depleted, it might not have the area of effect for it, but its condensed power is multi-galactic because it only fully depletes after destroying multiple galaxies.

Super Gogeta purified the entirety of the condensed energy inside the Minus Power Ball, meaning he scales to its condensed yield.
 
I mostly agree with the proposal: SSJ4 Gogeta being a solid 3-A via pretty casually nullifying an attack containing enough energy to destroy everything in the universe which, as WGA pointed out in the previous thread and again here, meets the wiki's standard for Attack Potency despite the attack taking a significant amount of time to accomplish said destruction.

Obv then I also agree with Yi/Omega being 3-A (with the minus ball only). I'm iffy on the universal spirit bomb being 3-A given Yi lacking evidence for dura at that level and the minus ball launched at it being much weaker than the ball Gogeta easily purified but it's possible and might warrant the 'At least' tag.

I'm more iffy on the 'At least 3-B' for Yi's striking and dura. Yi couldn't do anything to Gogeta, even the latter's most casual attacks were way out of his paygrade. I personally think Yi is likely 3-B+ but I can't necessarily prove that and 'At least' seems to imply more evidence for 3-A than has been shown in the revision discussions so far.
 
You do know 3-B+ means a character is only 2x away from 3-A right? At least 3-B would just mean they are much higher than 3-Bs and could potentially be higher. But anyway I'm still a bit iffy on 3-A GT so I'll just wait and see what others think about this.
 
@Peter Yeah, I'm tired af and had a bit of a brain fart there thinking it was 10x away so nvm on the 3-B+. On the second point, if that's what 'At least 3-B' is agreed to mean here, it could be appropriate.
 
WindGodAcheron said:
Kepekley conceded to my rebuttals, so no.
Click to expand...
His point was

We have never treated area of effect as a detriment if it's implied that the attack's concentrated/condensed power is of a certain level aside from its area of effect. Doing so now would be hypocritical.
 
Nedge1000 said:
WindGodAcheron said:
Kepekley conceded to my rebuttals, so no.
Click to expand...
His point was
We have never treated area of effect as a detriment if it's implied that the attack's concentrated/condensed power is of a certain level aside from its area of effect. Doing so now would be hypocritical.
Click to expand...
...That's him supporting my argument, though.
 
The minus energy pollutes and decays a planet over time, that's not attack potency. And like I said here, it's like a parasite which goes to a planet, decays it, then moves on to another, decays it too and so on.
 
Nope. The minus energy corrodes ''and'' destroys a planet. This is both stated and shown. That's attack potency. My new blog should answer all the questions people have regarding this upgrade.
 
The "parasite" idea is also untrue. It's stated in no unclear words that the negative energy corroding other planets is a result of the original negative energy on Earth, which is so full to the brim that it overflows, with the pockets of overflown energy corroding and destroying the celestial bodies. Coupled with the numerous statements that say the Minus Energy Ball created by Yi is a heavily condensed merger of the negative energy (which so far have been ignored), it's clear that its condensed energy output is 3-A, which is scalable to Gogeta, who purified all of it with a kick.
 
They are league's beyond universal as they scale much higher than base s17 arc Goku who nearly destroyed the afterlife by simply powering up which is a multi universal feat, black smoke shenron was officially stated by toei to have power capable of destroying the entire universe which means macroverse yet this same black smoke is weaker than base nova who was on par with base sd arc goku in power and goku wasn't worried about black smokes power even tho gohan stated his ki was unbelievably strong for a villain, and the z anime filler already has characters like kid boo, boohan, and vegito at multi galaxy to universal anyway so them being "universal" is completely unjustified
 
WindGodAcheron said:
Nedge1000 said:
WindGodAcheron said:
Kepekley conceded to my rebuttals, so no.
Click to expand...
His point was
We have never treated area of effect as a detriment if it's implied that the attack's concentrated/condensed power is of a certain level aside from its area of effect. Doing so now would be hypocritical.
Click to expand...
...That's him supporting my argument, though.
Click to expand...
I do agree. I forgot to write it.

Minus ball is shown to be able to destroy also not just decay, despite the ball not hitting, and it is still like chi which can destroy.

It makes no sense if Great Minus Ball only decays.
 
It doesn't say the negative energy will outright destroy the planet at once. It clearly says that the minus energy will pollute and decay a planet. Then even if the planet gets destroyed over time it might be because it has become unstable, that part is vague so it's unknown how it happens exactly and we can't assume the absolute maximum. Once a planet is decayed, it moves to another planet and so on.

OmegaKai
 
It's not vague, it's pretty clear-cut. The Earth is shown corroding AND disintegrating, we see a massive explosion in the simulation and Elder Kaioshin acknowledges that entire galaxies will disappear. How can that be any more clear?

  • And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won't stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."
You keep repeatedly posting that screencap like it disproves the condensed energy statements and what is stated by Elder Kaioshin in the Japanese version regarding what causes the destruction. It actually debunks itself because it shows the Earth and several galaxies being destroyed as opposed to just "left to decay", something that is clearly false. Yi Xing Long himself said he'd utterly destroy the entire universe.
 
Is there any proof that the massive explosion is not because of the planet getting unstable due to all the corrosion?
 
WindGodAcheron said:
Nobody in Dragon Ball GT is remotely Multi-Universal. Goku's afterlife shaking feat was calculated at Galaxy level.
Click to expand...
Thats because it was downplayed just like the rest of the characters in the gt category, we see goku casually shaking the entire afterlife by powering up which us a miniscule portion of ones ki, goku nearly destroying the afterlife by powering up shows that a blast from him would destroy the afterlife
 
Burden of proof fallacy. You have to prove your claim that it's because of the AP of the minus energy and not because of the planet getting corroded when Elder Kai's statement clearly implies the latter.
 
You do realize that "erosion" literally means "destroy gradually?". We're shown that the Minus Energy warps the space and erodes the galaxies, too.

The one reversing the burden of proof here is actually you, because you're inventing headcanon (and so far have failed to acknowledge the condensed energy whatsoever) in order to explain away what was solidly shown.
 
FallenProfit said:
Thats because it was downplayed just like the rest of the characters in the gt category, we see goku casually shaking the entire afterlife by powering up which us a miniscule portion of ones ki, goku nearly destroying the afterlife by powering up shows that a blast from him would destroy the afterlife.
Click to expand...
Goku only shaked the afterfile which was calced at Galaxy level, he never did nearly destroyed it and that blast did not intended to. Unless you are planning to bring up Kid Buu, who was going to destroy the afterlife [Based on it being Universal in size] in a Filler Episode which was calced by SSK Ryu [Through Matthew said that this calc is wank] as a Multi-Galaxy level+ to Universe level feat as discussed in another thread, but that along with Afterlife being infinite in size was rejected by the staff. If that was agreed yes every char. equal to Kid Buu would have become 3-B+ to 3-A with everyone stronger in GT being Universe level in a Grade superior to the Early God's Entities in Super, but then again that was rejected.
 
Sorry, but I have to step in on the "corrosion" bit. The Minus Energy Ball is undoubtedly Attack Potency. That's unarguable. Hence why it was stated that the last time Black Smoke Shenron appeared, multiple galaxies were instantaneously destroyed, and why it is able to concentrate negative energy on the Earth and destroy it instantaneously.

The same argument would lead to 3-B getting downgraded (which is nonsensical), but nobody would dare to try downgrade him from 3-B if this got rejected.
 
In your own words, galaxies are being "gradually destroyed" because of what? The AP of the attack or because of every celestial body blowing up due to it becoming unstable due to all the rotting?

Again, you'll have to prove your claim.
 
IIRC it wasn't stated that Black Smoke Shenron destroyed multiple galaxies by using the negative energy attack like Omega does.
 
No, it was directly stated when he first appeared that the Evil Dragons' ability comes from the minus energy spread inside the Dragon Balls. Popo is the one who states he has heard of Black Smoke Shenron, and that last time he appeared on a planet, multiple galaxies were instantly destroyed.

Omega Shenron states that his Minus Energy Ball is the condensed negative energy of all the Evil Dragons. That's definitely AP.
 
Goku only shaked the afterfile which was calced at Galaxy level, he never did nearly destroyed it and that blast did not intended to. Unless you are planning to bring up Kid Buu, who was going to destroy the afterlife [Based on it being Universal in size] in a Filler Episode which was calced by SSK Ryu as a Multi-Galaxy level+ to Universe level feat as discussed in another thread, but that along with Afterlife being infinite in size was rejected by the staff. If that was agreed yes every char. equal to Kid Buu would have become 3-A with everyone stronger in GT being Universe level in a Grade superior to the Early God's in Super, but that was rejected.

Yemma stated the afterlife was out of his hands now and we know gokus ki reach his realm hence why it was shaken, there was no blast, i brought it up to show that since him powering up can nearly destroy the afterlife then a blast from him would obliterate it

Kid boos feat in the anime was multi galaxy level as he was going to oneshot grandkais planet which is multi galactic in size as it can be seen next to a universal sized planet, the reason why hes universal in the anime is because he scales higher than fullpower super vegito who broke through enraged boohans barrier which was going to protect him from the universal destruction he was about to cause, offtop we have Z high tiers being no less than multi galaxy+ in which the ap scale rises significantly higher with feats,statements, and scaling in gt
 
Buuhan feat is actually Multi-Universe level since he was causing multiple alternative universes to fall on Vegito, but that is outlier and since the afterlife was rejected to be infinite in size, Goku and Kid Buu will not be upgraded, there are not Z high tiers being less than 3-B+ if you are referring to those on Cell-Fat Buu aside from boasting/confusing statements or bad translations. You'll have to get that stuff approved by the stuff if you want to apply them, and they were rejected before.
 
Yeah I don't see anything beyond 3-B in Toeiverse that isn't an outlier or overtime.

The Minus Energy doesn't even destroy a planet instantly, it's not exactly quantifiable, its power grows exponentially over time.

Also I have never been sold on the 3-B translation of Popo's quote.
 
I agree with Dark649. Gohan Buu's feat is a massive outlier and nobody on Toei Continuity is Tier 2. By the end of Z people are galaxy busters. The only Universal people on Toei are Yi Xing Long with a specific attack and Super Gogeta.
 
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