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Dragon Ball Super Episode 123 Upgrades

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KingPin0422

KingPin0422

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I know that we didn't see very much of Vegeta's new form this episode, but together with SSBKK Goku he quickly turned the tables on Jiren.

Speaking of Jiren, it's also noted by Belmod that he has used much more power than he did against UI Goku, as he did sense "a rise in Jiren" who also did things we never saw him do against UI Goku.

Grand Priest also notes that Vegeta broke through his own shell, much like Goku did.

I believe this may be enough to put Vegeta as being Low 2-C through his new form, and Goku as being Low 2-C with regular Super Saiyan Blue, possibly even a solid Low 2-C.
 
If you guys want to wait another week, that's fine.

But I think we've seen enough to give credence to this upgrade.
 
I think, because this has been featured in debates for the past couple of weeks, this could go through. I don't have a problem with Low 2-C Vegeta and Blue Goku, but then there's the implications for what that spells out for other characters who might scale to Blue Goku. Jiren was going a portion of his full power against Goku and Vegeta, and when Goku was struck by Jiren's rapid-fire assault, he noted that it was the most powerful attack he had ever been hit by (This is coming from a Goku who experienced Infinite Zamasu's beams from space) Goku and Vegeta were then able to fight on par with this Jiren and even knock him back.
 
I really don't see an issue with it but I'd like to hear some counterarguments/more input. For better perspective, if nothing else.
 
I'm okay with this Post-Kefla SSB Goku already seems to be Low 2-C via being able to keep up with Jiren. This would also mean a upgrade for Anilaza and Android 17's Barrier if this upgrade goes through.
 
I don't really think you'll hear many, to be fair. Jiren's attack on Goku pretty much solidifies this, as well as Vegeta's new form confirmed to be his version of Ultra Instinct. Combine this with the argument used for the last few weeks that Goku gets more powerful each time he has UI, see this episode where he can fight on par with Jiren in SSJB when before he was manhandled in SSJB Kaioken x 20, and you have a series of pretty solid reasons for an upgrade. Scans can be provided, as well.
 
True enough. Jiren did also note that their attacks were sharper. Though, whether he was talking about precision or strength, IDK.

But I could get on board for the upgrade.
 
I wouldn't really use that as a defense for this, but I suppose you could. Generally speaking, I think he was talking about strength (as Beerus/Whis note right after this that their attacks lack coordination but that this is a strength), but still.
 
I agree with this as well. I really don't see why it wouldn't go through when Belmod and Khai both note that Jiren was showing a hint of his true power. As for Vegeta's new form, this is pretty much was Complete Super Saiyan Blue was from the manga. It's even stated that it's a Super Saiyan Blue from inside Vegeta's body.
 
It's not Completed Super Saiyan Blue though. It's Vegeta's version of Ultra Instinct. It's even noted that it's Vegeta's way of "breaking through the shell," and going past his own limits.
 
I don't think 17's barrier should scale, because it was also just broken by Toppo and Gohan, and when he attacked Anilaza with it, he hit a weak spot. Though, Low 2-C Anilaza, Low 2-C Post-Kefla Goku, and Low 2-C Vegeta with Mastered SSB(Temporary name), this all sounds okay with me.
 
It's not Completed/Mastered SSB though. That's more of a stretch than calling it "Ultra Blue," or something similar. It doesn't share any characteristics with CSSJB/MSSJB except for it being a higher form than SSJB.

And it's literally referred to as Vegeta's way of breaking through his own shell and limits, which is exactly how UI was described.
 
I watched this episode again and I'm pretty sure he cancelled the barrier after he got punched by Toppo and Gohan stopped the Kamehameha.
 
It's breaking the shell in his own sort of way that seems far different that Ultra Instinct. Maybe it seems described the same way, but Vegeta clearly distinguished that he wasn't going to achieve Ultra Instinct. The only evidence for it being a unique UI would be the way it's described, but that could be argued for MSSB.

Why it might be MSSB though? Because GP literally states, "He focused a power far beyond Super Saiyan Blue within his body." That might not sound like it, but MSSB was about fully going beyond SSB's poor stamina with the power being concentrated to be inside the body of the person. What did GP state again? It being the focused power in Vegeta's body? It isn't confirmed, but I'm just bringing up possibilities for this new form.
 
Megamangohan said:
but SSGSSKKx20 Goku could barly touch Jiren in their first fight.
Click to expand...
I'll just give you a brief summary on Goku's Power throughout the tournament.

Post-Jiren UIO Goku > Post-Kefla SSBKKx20 Goku > Post-Kefla SSB Goku > Pre-Jiren UIO Goku > Pre-Jiren SSBKKx20 Spirit Bomb > Post-Jiren SSBKKx20 Goku > Post-Kefla SSG Goku > Post-Jiren SSB Goku > Pre-Jiren SSBKKx20 Goku > Post-Jiren SSG Goku > Pre-Jiren SSB Goku > Pre-Jiren SSG Goku.
 
Vegeta's new form isn't Ultra Instict. Its just a superior form of SSJ Blue.

I don't think 17 can scale from any of this. Low 2-C to Vegeta's new form, Post-Kefla Goku (with Blue Kaioken, not sure if regular Blue should) and Anilaza seems ok
 
Peter1129 said:
I watched this episode again and I'm pretty sure he cancelled the barrier after he got punched by Toppo and Gohan stopped the Kamehameha.
Click to expand...
Mind me, you were right. Toppo broke it by punching him directly, albeit, he was already inside of his barrier. And that power scaling seems in order.
 
So yeah Android 17 by himself is just 3-A but with barriers he is Possibly/Likely Low 2-C.

Do you guys agree or disagree with this?
 
Hmm, so #17 is 3-A physically, Low 2-C with his barrier?

Giving him solid Low 2-C would completely mess up the scaling.
 
Yep that is correct his tier would look like this

Tier: 3-A normally Likely Low 2-C with Android Barrier

Attack Potency: 3-A (whatever he has on his profile right now), Likely Low 2-C (Damaged Anilaza's energy core)

Durability: 3-A (Whatever he has on his profile), Low 2-C with Android Barrier (Flew through Anilaza's energy ball with his barrier.)
 
I disagree with Low 2-C Android 17, as Anilaza was able to break it on his own.
 
Well it could be argued that he deactivated his barrier when he the ground broke and he lost his balance and was about to get ringed out. Since he straight up flew through an even more powerful energy blast right after that.
 
Why though? Goku's already gone through two usage of UIO and the first usage made his SSG form stronger than SSB. Is it that big of a stretch for his current SSB form to be equal to or stronger than his first UIO?
 
Pretty sure people have already said that neither Vegeta or Goku used their full power against Koichiarator and they only did that to distract Koichiarator and give Gohan an opening to exploit.
 
A suppressed Jiren was noted as being superior to Infinite Zamasu, and Beerus, so there's a possiblilty there, but it's too vague, and this was Jiren while against the Spirit Bomb, who is far superior to X20 Blue Goku, while using even less power, who Vegeta's Omen fought on par with during the fight.
 
I don't think it makes Gohan and Koichi scale at all actually.

Not to mention (I will say it until I'm blue in the face) that 3-A and Low 2-C aren't treated as infinite in DBS and indeed in many fictions.

If anything Gohan and Koichi being that strong would be PIS more than Goku and Vegeta becoming Low 2-C, which has been facilitated with evidence now multiple times.
 
We can't put our standards for what these tiers are unto them, however, and it is erroneous to do so. We simply gauge what the characters demonstrate and give it a rating based on our system.

Currently, I think only Goku and Vegeta need a Low 2-C form. Everything else can be handled later (Kefla and Anilaza are the only two I think would scale)

This has been put off for weeks already. 3 weeks, to be exact. These types of discussions happen every week and will continue to until properly addressed.
 
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