Zagred vs Keiji Mogami

[Epiccheev]

I disagree with ghosts being made of life force because
1.Lifeforce as shown in mob psycho comes from living things like crops and humans, and getting drained of it causes the body to decay, meaning it's a physical energy that comes from the body, as opposed to psychic energy/ghosts who hail from mind/astral sources.
2.When Mogami starts absorbing ghosts his body and mind decay with him rapidly aging, wich is the opposite of what you'd expect of someone who's been absorbing lifeforce.
3.Certain ghosts feeding on lifeforce is also not a strong argument, given they can feed on pretty much any form of energy in the verse (Psychic power,lifeforce,other ghosts,spiritium, etc.)

 

[Epiccheev]

Still, the Soul suspension spell is a wincon, is there any scans of Zagred using it?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I disagree with ghosts being made of life force because
1.Lifeforce as shown in mob psycho comes from living things like crops and humans, and getting drained of it causes the body to decay, meaning it's a physical energy that comes from the body, as opposed to psychic energy/ghosts who hail from mind/astral sources.
2.When Mogami starts absorbing ghosts his body and mind decay with him rapidly aging, wich is the opposite of what you'd expect of someone who's been absorbing lifeforce.
3.Certain ghosts feeding on lifeforce is also not a strong argument, given they can feed on pretty much any form of energy in the verse (Psychic power,lifeforce,other ghosts,spiritium, etc.)

Alright then.

Still, the Soul suspension spell is a wincon, is there any scans of Zagred using it? (and if not asking much for the sea of monsters as well)

That’s about it. Zagred suspends the souls of the elves till the seal put on him by that girl (my Nero) in the scan is broken. 500 years later the seal on Zagred breaks and he reincarnates one of the elves which makes the elf think he’s some kind of savior for the other elves but in reality all of that was Zagred’s master plan to eventually obtain his body and steal the poor elf’s grimoire.

Oh and this what the sea of life eating monsters. That’s what they look like when Zagred spams them.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Honestly, I didn't find any reason for spirits to have a sacred nature, can any Mob supporter tell me why?

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, I didn't find any reason for spirits to have a sacred nature, can any Mob supporter tell me why?

....Who here argued spirits are sacred? Mogami's win conditions are hax.

 

[Epiccheev]

I guess it's up to wether Mogami's mind hax can be applied here and if he will use it before Zagred suspends him.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Mogami can mind control Mob, who can ignore God Dimple's mind control, who after being empowered can affect Teruki, who can resist the passive mind control of Psycho Helmet, who can affect weaker espers, who have baseline resistance to mind control.

I count 3 layers here tho.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I guess it's up to wether Mogami's mind hax can be applied here and if he will use it before Zagred suspends him.

Well Mogami needs to possess Zagred to use his Mind hax (that Zagred should resist anyway given both have matching layers) when they fight within Zagred’s body. It’s similar to how Ekubo needed some sort of condition for his mind hax to be initiated. Meanwhile Zagred can easily prevent possession via RW. So Zagred is definitely going to suspend him first.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

....Who here argued spirits are sacred? Mogami's win conditions are hax.

And how is this hax getting past Demon Heart Invulnerability?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Honestly, I didn't find any reason for spirits to have a sacred nature, can any Mob supporter tell me why?

yeah I don’t see the spirits getting passed the heart’s invulnerability. They aren’t sacred but being sacred doesn’t mean they’re holy or unholy anyway.

 

[Planck69]

Unless I missed something, we don't treat invulnerability as a No U to all hax, at all.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

95% of the abilities in the wiki are in Black Clover lol. What’s your point? The heart is invulnerable to all magic in Black Clover. So without holy, unholy manipulation and law manipulation, Devils can’t be killed.

 

[Phoenks]

95% of the abilities in the wiki are in Black Clover lol. What’s your point? The heart is invulnerable to all magic in Black Clover. So without holy, unholy manipulation and law manipulation, Devils can’t be killed.

The invulnerability seems to be limited to conventionally killing/defeating them. Based on the page, I see no defense from a mind Hax or possession incapacitation victory.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The invulnerability seems to be limited to conventionally killing/defeating them. Based on the page, I see no defense from a mind Hax or possession incapacitation victory.

Yeah.

I’ve given reasonings for how Zagred defends against those.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah.

I’ve given reasonings for how Zagred defends against those.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Mogami's mind control, possession, and memory reading/manipulation should give him an easy victory imo.

There's also the TK which has such vastly higher LS that even that could arguably just quickly win the fight considering Devil regeneration isn't instant. Class T is multiple.magnitudes higher than Class K.

Also, another point I could bring up. Doesn't Zagred need to speak to make his words true? And the way he does this is similar to a normal human?

If Mogami reads his mind, he could easily prevent him from saying anything with a single thought. If he binds him in TK the LS will be so great that he wouldn't even be able to move his mouth to voice something. This could be an extremely strong case to say he just shuts down Zagred's main defense.

 

[Planck69]

95% of the abilities in the wiki are in Black Clover lol. What’s your point? The heart is invulnerable to all magic in Black Clover. So without holy, unholy manipulation and law manipulation, Devils can’t be killed.

The ridiculous NLF aside, mind hax doesn't need to kill to incapacitate.

"Without law, unholy and holy, no hax works" lmfao.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

The invulnerability seems to be limited to conventionally killing/defeating them. Based on the page, I see no defense from a mind Hax or possession incapacitation victory.

In fact, it should protect them from mental manipulation as well since there is mental magic in BC that is not considered arcane magic or sacred magic, like for example Marx and Neige

 

[Phoenks]

In fact, it should protect them from mental manipulation as well since there is mental magic in BC that is not considered arcane magic or sacred magic, like for example Marx and Neige

NLF, and not mentioned on the page. It's explicitly listed as being limited.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

NLF, and not mentioned on the page. It's explicitly listed as being limited.

It is not mentioned because Invulnerability already covers it so many of the hax that the demon heart demonstrates resistance to are not on its page, and limited because it's just the heart, and there's no reason to assume this as the NFL since the Invulnerability of demon hearts is important to the plot and spells that are mind hax have been shown to be "ordinary" magic which does not affect the demon heart

 

[Phoenks]

It is not mentioned because Invulnerability already covers it so many of the hax that the demon heart demonstrates resistance to are not on its page, and limited because it's just the heart, and there's no reason to assume this as the NFL since the Invulnerability of demon hearts is important to the plot and spells that are mind hax have been shown to be "ordinary" magic which does not affect the demon heart

If it's just the heart it literally doesn't matter in this fight anyway, because Mogami is going to affect his mind, not his heart. ???

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

If it's just the heart it literally doesn't matter in this fight anyway, because Mogami is going to affect his mind, not his heart. ???

His consciousness(mind) is in the heart, that's why when the rest of his body gets vaporized the heart grew a mouth and he was shown talking/using his magic with it to restore his body

Though I don't see how this would be actually relevant either because his mind being in the invulnerable heart doesn't make it resistant to mind manip in the same way a persons who has a fully invulnerable body's own mind being in that body won't grant them resistance to mind manip

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ve been saying the same things over and over again. God. @Phoenks

Mogami is not doing any of that Mind hax without possessing Zagred’s body or without Zagred possessing a body inhabited by him. Zagred can easily prevent that by not letting Mogami reach him. Mogami’s mind hax is 3 layers. Zagred’s resistance is 3 layers.

Zagred can talk as just a heart even if the rest of his body is gone. Yes he talks with a mouth and can form mouths anywhere even on his indestructible heart. There are cases in Mob Psycho where people can talk while under the strong influence of TK not to mention Zagred can easily change what’s on his mind quickly as soon as he realizes that Mogami is reading his mind. Zagred has faced someone with literal precognition anyway and all he did was spam attacks by forming mouths all over his body. Mogami is going to have to target all the mouths directly around his body. Besides when has Mogami used mind reading outside the mind scape?

Anyway that’s all I’ll say for now until I’m sober cuz I shouldn’t be replying rn

 

[Phoenks]

There are cases in Mob Psycho where people can talk while under the strong influence of TK

They have higher LS than the people in Black Clover so that's not really a point. Class T vs Class K is not going to let Zagred talk while under the influence.

Zagred can easily change what’s on his mind quickly as soon as he realizes that Mogami is reading his mind.

He can, but that also means he won't be able to think about what he is doing at the moment.

Zagred has faced someone with literal precognition anyway and all he did was spam attacks by forming mouths all over his body. Mogami is going to have to target all the mouths directly around his body.

Telekinesis already affects the entire body so it would automatically affect all the mouths he creates on his body and prevent him from speaking.

Mogami is not doing any of that Mind hax without possessing Zagred’s body or without Zagred possessing a body inhabited by him. Zagred can easily prevent that by not letting Mogami reach him. Mogami’s mind hax is 3 layers. Zagred’s resistance is 3 layers.

Zagred's resistance is not currently backed up like Mogami's is. It's not on the pages. As far as I know you could just be making that up, considering you didn't bring it up until recently.

 

[Planck69]

Mob resists God Dimple, who can affect Teruki, who resists Psycho Helmet's passive aura, who can affect weaker espers, who have baseline mind resistance. He's the one with three resistance layers.

Mogami overcomes that just fine. And since when do we assume it's possession-based? He's a spirit, nothing stops him from using the basic aspect like Dimple did.

The invulnerability extending to hax is classic NLF unless there are very explicit feats and statements and the logic doesn't even hold. There are characters with full body invulnerability, brain and all. We don't assume them to be immune to everything in their verse.

Telekinesis can cover the whole body and has no travel time so Zagred can be immobilised just fine. It can lock up invidious joints, closing mouths isn't an issue.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ll respond when I’m free today cuz some of these replies are insane. I’m getting rid of this one topic below cuz I’m tired of reading it:

The invulnerability extending to hax is classics
NLF, unless there's very explicit feats and statements and the logic doesn't even hold anyway. There are characters with full body invulnerability, brain and all. We don't assume them to be immune to everything in their verse.

Those characters have nothing to do with black clover. The heart was stated to tank everything and there were specific counters to it. It has even tanked existence erasure.

Also this topic is irrelevant to this thread. Mogami doesn’t have any special or overpowered hax to kill Zagred conventionally. The topic here is Mind hax which I will discuss later today.

 

[Phoenks]

Those characters have nothing to do with black clover. The heart was stated to tank everything and there were specific counters to it. It has even tanked existence erasure.

Existence Erasure is not mind manipulation at all. Those are completely different abilities with completely different applications. Using the statement of "Tanking everything" and extrapolating that to mean they can resist abilities like mind manipulation without explicit proof is textbook NLF.

Also this topic is irrelevant to this thread. Mogami doesn’t have any special or overpowered hax to kill Zagred conventionally.

Again, even if that was the case, "killing" isn't even required. Possession and Mind Manipulation are his main attacks and both of them can be used to incapacitate, which is what he normally does anyway.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Existence Erasure is not mind manipulation at all. Those are completely different abilities with completely different applications. Using the statement of "Tanking everything" and extrapolating that to mean they can resist abilities like mind manipulation without explicit proof is textbook NLF.

Again you are misunderstanding what I am saying..

I have agreed with you like 10 times. Invulnerability has nothing to do with Mind hax.

 

[Phoenks]

Okay, well are you ready to defend your stance?

1. How does he get past Class T TK immediately binding him and preventing him from using word magic?
2. How does he get past Mind Hax that bypasses 3-layered resistance, including possession, memory alteration, and mind reading? As far as I'm aware, his mind hax is an instantaneous win-con that's thought-based.
3. How does he actually kill Mogami when he can summon like hundreds of spirits to attack that each have high regeneration and higher AP than him?

 

[Phoenks]

Bump

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay, well are you ready to defend your stance?

I have been doing so for a long while now while repeating myself over and over again.

This will be the last time. And if the conversation somehow circle backs to the same talking points then I’ll just let someone else handle this.

Although I will br bring new points to add to what I’ve already been saying. Hopefully that will help this progress.

1. How does he get past Class T TK immediately binding him and preventing him from using word magic?

Prove Mogami can telekenetically block people from speaking when holding their entire body (This never happens in Mob Psycho with anyone as far as I know). he would have to target the mouth specifically. Zagred can grow mouths all over his body to spam his magic so prove Mogami can specifically target all the mouths at once.

Also the TK in Mob Psycho works by energy binding on a target. Zagred sees that his mouth is being targeted and deletes said energy with multiple other mouths.

Also I don’t believe Mogami can read minds to the degree and frequency that’s puts him in an advantage all the time. For days I’ve been struggling to remember where this feat came from. Cuz they’re many… many cases where he could’ve just used mind reading. Unless it’s just something he just doesn’t do in character.

How does he get past Mind Hax that bypasses 3-layered resistance, including possession, memory alteration, and mind reading? As far as I'm aware, his mind hax is an instantaneous win-con that's thought-based.

I rewatched the episode to confirm everything I’ve said thus far and I realized Mogami doesn’t have mind hax outside memory manipulation.

Like I said multiple times before he can’t use it outside of the mental world.

That’s why he had to trap Mob to use it.

How does he actually kill Mogami when he can summon like hundreds of spirits to attack that each have high regeneration and higher AP than him?

Doesn’t need to kill him.

And his monsters can take care of the other spirits.

 

[Phoenks]

Prove Mogami can telekenetically block people from speaking when holding their entire body (This never happens in Mob Psycho with anyone as far as I know). he would have to target the mouth specifically. Zagred can grow mouths all over his body to spam his magic so prove Mogami can specifically target all the mouths at once.

Everyone in Mob Psycho can do psychic energy binds that cover one's entire body (Example of Mob twisting all of Toichiro's body at once, even down to his eyes in the anime). The only reason people in Mob Psycho can talk is because, once again, they have higher lifting strength/psychic resistance that allows them to resist psychic powers to an extent. Like Tochiro in that scene having Class T as well, allowing him to still talk, though even he was struggling to do that.

Zagred has neither psychic resistance, nor high enough LS to resist a bind at all, so please stop saying this. It's just what would logically happen if he put the guy in a Class T psychic bind, and it would cover all of the mouths.

Again, because this is really obvious stuff here, he can have him under a full-body pressure that is 47,598,623x stronger than what he can resist.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’ll take your silence on the rest of what I said as concession. So speak now or forever hold your objections in the future because I will not come back to this again.

---

Everyone in Mob Psycho can do psychic energy binds that cover one's entire body (Example of Mob twisting all of Toichiro's body at once, even down to his eyes in the anime). The only reason people in Mob Psycho can talk is because, once again, they have higher lifting strength/psychic resistance that allows them to resist psychic powers to an extent. Like Tochiro in that scene having Class T as well, allowing him to still talk, though even he was struggling to do that.

Zagred has neither psychic resistance, nor high enough LS to resist a bind at all, so please stop saying this. It's just what would logically happen if he put the guy in a Class T psychic bind, and it would cover all of the mouths.

Again, because this is really obvious stuff here, he can have him under a full-body pressure that is 47,598,623x stronger than what he can resist.

I also disagree that having “a higher LS” helps you to talk while being “bound” but I won’t say anything about it. All I’ll say is, Crushing requires but AP and LS.

Zagred’s heart invulnerability counters the AP aspect and he can speak through his heart to delete the esper energy shrouding him.

If you are still adamant on the LS working on the Devil Heart’s mouth to prevent Zagred from deleting the energy. All I can say is Mogami isn’t doing that forever and Zagred is fine with playing the long game. (I mean he literally waited centuries for his plan)

 

[Phoenks]

I’ll take your silence on the rest of what I said as concession. So speak now or forever hold your objections in the future because I will not come back to this again.

This is the biggest point, which is why I addressed it. If you can't counter the TK point, then it means that regardless of if Mogami needs to possess him, that he would still win this fight. Because if he can bind him, he can possess him anyway, even if you think he needs to do that to do mind manipulation stuff.

Crushing requires but AP and LS.

There is no crushing required. Closing mouths is not going to be damaging Zagred, just restricting him from moving his mouths, so invulnerability (immunity from damage) is not a factor. There is no damage or compression being done to Zagred's body. So the AP requirement isn't even really a factor for my argument.

And even still, Mogami possesses an AP advantage on top of the 47 million times lifting strength advantage.

If that's your best argument, it's not going to work here, man.

Zagred’s heart invulnerability counters the AP aspect and he can speak through his heart to delete the esper energy shrouding him.

Invulnerability doesn't counter telekinesis unless you have proof if does. And again, he isn't hurting Zagred, he's just closing mouths. Does his heart have a physical mouth or is a non-physical thing?

If you are still adamant on the LS working on the Devil Heart’s mouth to prevent Zagred from deleting the energy. All I can say is Mogami isn’t doing that forever.

He doesn't have to do it forever.

Even if you think Mogami can't mind control from the outside, if he restricts Zagred from moving he can easily possess him in an instant...

To be honest, Zagred would be lucky to not get possessed even without this argument.

Zagred seems to have let people get close to him/hit him in every single fight he's been in, so I think assuming he somehow does a no-hit no-contact run when fighting Mogami is far-fetched.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This is the biggest point, which is why I addressed it. If you can't counter the TK point, then it means that regardless of if Mogami needs to possess him, that he would still win this fight. Because if he can bind him, he can possess him anyway, even if you think he needs to do that to do mind manipulation stuff.

Zagred counters and resists possession.

There is no crushing required

Okay

Invulnerability doesn't counter telekinesis

Never said it did.

Zagred seems to have let people get close to him/hit him in every single fight he's been in

This is the most untrue statement made in this debate thus far and I know you haven’t watched Black Clover so why make this claim with confidence. Whatever Zagred can counter never reaches him. Infact there has never been a case where he let something he could easily counter hit him.

Zagred resists possession anyway with negative mana the same way Licht did to keep a far weaker Zagred at bay (Keep in mind this weaker Zagred could take over an Elf’s body). This way Low Ranking Devils don’t possess Zagred, the same way higher ranks do.

Supreme Devils > Zagred (high ranking devil) > Mid Ranking Devils > Low Ranking Devils.

 

[Phoenks]

Zagred counters and resists possession.

How? Mogami bypasses layered possession resistances. 3 layer bypass iirc.

Okay

So then you are admitting Mogami can bind him, right?

This is the most untrue statement made in this debate thus far and I know you haven’t watched Black Clover so why make such a confident claim. Whatever Zagred can counter never reaches him.

I don't know how it's untrue. I've watched multiple clips of him from the anime and in every fight people manage to get close to him/attack him without him just deleting the attacks out of existence with word magic. Like in one scene Yami just literally slashed at him with a sword from like a kilometer away and still managed to hit him. So why are we assuming he'd immediately do that?

I feel like he's being extremely hyped up here ngl. Like most anime characters with stupidly op abilities, he seems to not really use its full potential and is drawn back by that.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Like in one scene Yami just literally slashed at him with a sword from like a kilometer away and still managed to hit him. So why are we assuming he'd immediately do that?

Zagred was busy fighting other characters and Yami had to surpass his limits, right there, right in the moment to use an attack that it seems to not have any travel speed

So there is no way he can dodge an attack that is unavoidable/extremely difficult to avoid and from a character that he is not even taking into account

And from other clips, normally he tries to speak and Yuno/Asta speedblitz him, Yuno and Asta were using the antimagic properties of atraction to magic to make themselves faster, and with Licht, ultimate magic shenanigans+ plot, no defense of why for example Zagred could not vanish the attack other than to show that his heart is invulnerable and this part has caused a lot of problems in the verse so okey, point for you about this scene

 

[Arnoldstone18]

How? Mogami bypasses layered possession resistances. 3 layer bypass iirc.

and these layers are?

I don't know how it's untrue. I've watched multiple clips of him from the anime and in every fight people manage to get close to him/attack him without him just deleting the attacks out of existence with word magic. Like in one scene Yami just literally slashed at him with a sword from like a kilometer away and still managed to hit him.

So you just watched clips of him from the anime and not the anime itself?

Even if you watched the anime through Instagram reels, you would not be claiming Zagred saw Yami’s attack from a kilometer away. He was obviously distracted by other characters trying to literally kill him and Yami obviously boosted the speed of the attack immensely.

And no Zagred can’t counter dark magic even if he did see it coming with Reality Warping. It’s magic from the underworld.

Ask questions on what you watch off heavily edited clips on YouTube. Stop making strong claims based on it. I have watched Mob Psycho so I can definitely make strong claims about it.

I feel like he's being extremely hyped up here ngl. Like most anime characters with stupidly op abilities, he seems to not really use its full potential and is drawn back by that.

Or the fact that Zagred is jumped by multiple people who have skill sets designed to take care of his OP powers and abilities. The MC is literally anti magic ffs.