Yume Ni/2kki big ass final revision

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I swear it's my last one in a while.

This thread will go over only the "top" stats of the verse. 4-A and such things will remain as is, but Tier 3 and 2 stats will be the ones to be changed.

I separated this thread into three main sections (plus two bonus ones). They are in order of credibility in my opinion, with the first being almost 100% likely and the two others being less and less likely, but still a real possibility.

Structure of the Dream World
Characters that are able to destroy the Dream World are currently rated as 3-A. But as noticeable by our Range ratings for the verse (Multi-Universal), this may be seen as wrong and it indeed is. The Dream World is composed out of several separated worlds, some of them with no obvious physical connection between each other.

For Yume Nikki, we have the Ghost World, which is pretty much the afterlife and a perfect "alternate dimension" to the "normal" world, down to having the same buildings in some places. This would mean that the Yume Nikki Dream World is made out of at least two universes.

For Yume 2kki, while it is less clear, we have a far higher quanity and variety of different worlds, including at least two with galaxies in them, one confirmed to be a whole universe and many, MANY more with at least a full nightsky comparable to ours, implying the existence of far more than just two universes.

In both cases, the "Waking Up" ability will be upgraded to 2-C for destroying many universes.

For Yume Nikki, the Glitch Event and the Shadow Monster will also be upgraded to 2-C for destroying the Dream World. The Jellyfish's durability would be upgraded to 2-C too (AP will remain Low 2-C). As for the Manga, everyone who used to be 3-A will now be 2-C, once again due to scaling to the destruction of the Dream World.

Was it all a Dream?
However, we encounter yet another contradiction. Both the Jellyfish, Waking Up and Glitch Event takes their tiering from seeing the (formerly only) 3-D Dream World as fiction. Madotsuki's Dream is but fiction to her, the Jellyfish can take the Dream's destruction and exists in the Real World and the Glitch Event does the same thing as Waking Up.

But now they're at the same tier as beings INSIDE the Dream World, namely 2-C. Which makes no sense.

Thus, as the Dream, including its 2-C beings and its two separate space-time continuum, are but fiction to Madotsuki in the "real world", I propose the Waking Up ability to be rated High 2-A on the basis of transcending a small multiverse and at least one 2-C being. This would apply to anything that was previously Low 2-C (Jellyfish and Glitch Event).

Yume 2kki lacks any Tier 2 beings, however, there are still many space-time continuums within the Dream World and Urotsuki still views it as just a dream. Thus, her Waking Up ability should be High 2-A, similarly to Madotsuki's.

Dream Layers
It is notable that in both Yume Nikki and Yume 2kki, the "Real World" isn't truly the real world and is simply another layer of dreams for both characters. So, what is seen as the "real world" in those games is still a dream, and their true selves exist even beyond that.

In Yume Nikki, this is revealed in the "sequel", -Dream Diary-. The start of the game takes place around the same time as the end of the original, where Madotsuki kills herself. However, the true Madotsuki wakes up from this after her supposed death. The name of the achievement itself hints at Madotsuki's suicide being just a dream. This would explain the presence of the Jellyfishes at the end of the original despite it being the "real world". Hell, the concept of Dream Layers is also mentioned with the Jellyfishes in -Dream Diary-, further supporting this.

In Yume 2kki this is even more blatant. In ending #1, Urotsuki manages to wake up from the "real world", ending up in a completely dark world. She then wakes up again from this world, ending up in the absolute real world next to a bunch of books, before putting them on her bookshelf and leaving. Again, this would explain why the Real World has so much supernatural in it (Urotsuki having access to her chainsaw, the "rotten eggs" appearing in the real world, the train in ending #4, Urotsuki being a doll all along in ending 3, etc.) Thus, unlike Madotsuki, Urotsuki's true self is two layers of dream above the supposed "real world".

Now there is two way to deal with this.

• We allow a key for each of the girl's "real world" stat, transcending the basic dream world and thus be High 2-A. As they can still wake up in this state, they should also get a "Waking Up" power, this one being Low 1-C in power due to transcending even this "real world". Their Type 9 would also scale to this. Urotsuki would get two keys for that, one for the "real world" and one of the "dark world". Their keys would look like that:

Madotsuki: At least 7-C, likely 5-A to 4-A. High 2-A via waking up | High 2-A, Low 1-C via waking up. | 10-A Key: Dream World | "Real World" | True Real World

Madotsuki (-Dream Diary-): At least 7-C, likely 5-A to 4-A. Low 1-C via waking up | 10-B Key: Dream World | True Real World

Urostsuki: 5-A, likely 4-A. High 2-A via waking up | High 2-A, Low 1-C via waking up | Low 1-C, 1-C via waking up | 10-B Key: Dream World | "Real World" | Dark World | True Real World

• We change their "waking up" stat to show all their levels of dream, so we know that they can potentially reach that level if forced to wake up even on this level. This would also apply to their Type 9. The keys would work like that:

Madotsuki: At least 7-C, likely 5-A to 4-A. High 2-A to Low 1-C via waking up

Madotsuki (-Dream Diary-): At least 7-C, likely 5-A to 4-A. Low 1-C via waking up

Urotsuki: 5-A, likely 4-A. High 2-A to 1-C via waking up.

(The rest of their keys would be the same, such as keeping 10-C, 10-B and 10-A)

(While one might think that, due to dreaming directly from the real world instead of dreaming through the fake "real world", the entirety of -Dream Diary- would take place in the "real world" High 2-A plane. However, this is rather unlikely, as it's implied that both the Original and -Dream Diary- Dream World are on in the same. Thus it's more likely for Madotsuki to be skipping the High 2-A Dream Layer and directly dreaming into the 3-D Dream World. tl;dr: no)


Passive Reality Warping
Now for stuff unrelated to those awfully high stats.

Both of those characters visibly possess some degree of Reality Warping in an unconscious manner, as all changes to the Dream World are automatically and constantly reversed, keeping the Dream World into a constant Status Quo. This includes reviving deceased beings (Type 8 for dream inhabitants for that very reason), but also reversing entire events, repairing damage done to the Dream World and even sometimes erasing entities entirely.

This basically means that anything that changes their dreams in any significant manner will be Reality Warped back to normal.

However, this Reality Warping is subconscious only. None of them can just modify the Dream World at their whims. It can only be used the way it is used above. It also doesn't act instantly. A dream inhabitant being killed won't respawn instantly, instead Mado/Urotsuki has to leave the room. So it's likely that Mado/Urotsuki has to not be focused on an object for it to be repaired/changed. Finally, it is hugely out of character for either of them to exploit this, as this would be basically fleeing.

Two final points regarding this:

• Madotsuki's version of this should be 2-C/High 2-A in scale and power, due to countering the effects of the Glitch Event. This is not the case for Urotsuki, who can still negate reality warping but not on the level of the Glitch Event.

• While several beings in Yume 2kki do not reappear after being killed, and in both games some changes are permanent, these should be taken as exceptions to the rule, as most beings do come back and most changes aren't permanent.

Others

• Aztec Rave Monkey should have Shapeshifting, for reasons I hope are obvious.
• Urotsuki should have the ability to kill intangible/non-corporeal stuff, as she can interact with the XY Twins' non-physical numbers, can interact with the pure information found in the Binary World, can kill her seemingly non-corporeal mirror self and can kill ghosts.
• I'm less sure about it, but Madotsuki can also kill ghosts from the afterlife. However these weren't explicitly shown to be intangible or non-corporeal.
• Urotsuki should have the ability to breath underwater and in space.
• Madotsuki should have the latter only.
• Urotsuki should lose her Time Stop resistance, as it's highly unlikely that her Mirror self is the same kind of being as Urotsuki herself, and her resisting it is contradicted by her (much more accurate) clones being affected by it.
• Urotsuki should have the ability to come in and out of fictional worlds using the Eyeball Bomb, due to being able to escape from a book and a computer.
• Jellyfish should have Type 8 now and lose Type 9. Much like other dream residents, it would be reliant on Madotsuki, except it would be 2-C/High 2-A Madotsuki this time around.

It should be noted that a lot of what I argued for applies to most classic Yume Nikki-like games such as .flow, Me or LcdDem. However, I don't have deep enough knowledge of the latter two to accurately judges their power level regarding what I just discussed, and .flow's Dream World is too small to properly qualify as a multiverse so none of them would be affected yet, but this is bound to change.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I fell asleep reading this...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1-C Inception when.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In all seriousness, layers of dream are absolutely not enough to treat as Higher-Dimensions. Because they are both dreams, neither are real, nor is the dream within a dream infinitely less real. They are equally so. Dreams within dreams can happen even in real life.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

^

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Treating something as fiction = higher dimensional in our system. Dreams = fiction. I'd like you to elaborate.

Also, as far as I know, most of Inception doesn't take place in the lowest layer of dream and overall lacks connections between those layers potent enough to warrant a tier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dreams are absolutely not the equivalent of fiction. A dream is generated by your unconscious mind. A dream within a dream will also be generated by your unconscious mind, not by yourself within your dream.

They are both equally fake.

We accept sometimes even infinite levels without higher dimension equivalent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Treating something as fiction = higher dimensional in our system. Dreams = fiction. I'd like you to elaborate.
Also, as far as I know, most of Inception doesn't take place in the lowest layer of dream and overall lacks connections between those layers potent enough to warrant a tier.

Treating the lowest level of dream in Yume Nikki as 3D reality just to get 1-C stats for a real world little girl is even more arbitrary.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Okay so... Shouldn't we treat the Dream thing the same way we treat metafictional verses and Plot Manipulation in general?

I personally think we should treat those things from a Fiction-Reality perspective, and not vice-versa. It is exactly the same case of metafictional verses such as Doki Doki Literature Club where the literal real world Player is rated as Low 2-C, because we rate them as how they are perceived by character that are themselves perceived by them as fiction. It obviously doesn't mean you are Low 2-C

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean, fine.

3D Dream, 4D reality. What we already do.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Trying to invalidate the fact that Dreams in Yumi Nikki are considered 3-D / 4-D universes by the wiki's standards is the same as trying to invalidade the 4-A and Tier 2 ratings themselves

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No?

I'm just against the multiple layers of dreams.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You admitted that treating the lowest layer of dreams as 3-D is arbitrary literally a few posts ago

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That was half-bait.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Fiction = Imaginary world created from one's mind.

Dream = Imaginary world created from one's mind.

No difference. A dream is just subconscious thinking. Hell, it's more legit than fiction put on a physical medium such as books or games.

Nearly the entire game takes place within the dream. The ratings are based on the perspective of one inside the dream, much like High 6-C Matrix being based on the perspective of someone inside the Matrix. Unless you want to put all fiction taking place within a virtual world at 11-A to 10-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah but a dream within a dream is still generated by the sleeping mind in reality. It's on the same level of fakeness.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not really. A dream within a dream still cannot affect the first dream in any way possible due to not existing to it. Doesn't matter if everything is still produced by the real world. It's even shown within the games itself, even the entire dream getting nuked doesn't affect in any way the "real world" (That's still within a dream).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, because it's a dream. None of it is real, but one isn't more real than the other. They are all equally unreal derivations of the real world. And are not infinitely less-real layers of reality either, as they aren't real to begin with.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

None of them are more or less real than the other compared to the real world. But they certainly are when compared to each other.

If you want me to take the example of the virtual world again, it would be possible to create a hierarchy inside one where a character could be infinitely lesser than and almost non-existent to another character. None of them would be more real than the other compared to the "real world", true, but that doesn't change that the power gap between the two is still present and fully real to them. Which is what matters when we're talking about the strength of said virtual characters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nothing of this is proven about Yume Nikki, though. It's all your speculation. As it stands, this is a series with a real world and a dream world. It doesn't matter if it has "multiple layers" of dreaming, it's still ultimately just one dream. The upper portion of the dream is equally unreal.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not many assumptions are being made, unless you're talking about "seeing something as fiction = higher dimensional", which seems pretty damn standard to me if it's not contradicted.

I don't see your point with "It's just a series with a dream world". The whole reason why we even have stats for Madotsuki seeing her dreams as fiction is due to her real self interacting with her dream self in a manner meaningful in VS Debating. Therefore we can't just ignore it and say "Bah it's just a girl having a dream".

It does matter. While all of those layers are equal in power to a "real" being, it doesn't change that the second layer sees the first as nothing but meaningless fiction that has no physical existence, much like the real world sees the second layer.

That logic could be used to debunk any reality-fiction hierarchy, as most layers wouldn't be real thus any lower layer than it wouldn't be different in power or real-ness.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dreaming is not at all comparable to seeing something as fictional. You are just trying to analogue it because it ain't real, except it's still the product of your mind.

Hell, most of the time dreams aren't less real in fiction, but rather just parallel layers of reality, alternate dimensions, etc. So you can't draw a reality-fiction parallel to it.

I don't see at all your point with wanting to make them Low 1-C based on the real world. Do they even show powers in the real world or not? If they don't it could easily be more believable that they are powerful in their dreams but in reality they are just normal people.

Which is frankly more believable than "They are cosmic higher-dimensional beings who are dreaming of being normal kids"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nearly the entire game takes place within the dream. The ratings are based on the perspective of one inside the dream, much like High 6-C Matrix being based on the perspective of someone inside the Matrix. Unless you want to put all fiction taking place within a virtual world at 11-A to 10-B.

I'd like to address this. What you are talking about is a false equivalency.

We rate Neo as High 6-C, Monika as Low 2-C, Kirito as High 8-C for stuff they do in a simulation, yes. But we don't treat Real-world Neo or Kirito as High 3-A because "They are 3D in a fake reality so they'd be 4D in the real world".

That's entirely ludicrous and based on false equivalency.

And I see treating the Real World version of the characters are infinitely stronger just as wrong.

 

[Promestein]

Yume Nikki is SUPER vague and open to interpretation and to interpret Madotsuki seeing things from her dreams when she's "awake" means little when she could very well still be dreaming. I really don't think they even interact so much as show up.

Nevermind, I read more.

Still, they're dreams. I'm leaning towards agreeing with Matt, as much as I love Yume Nikki

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's not the case here. Dreams in this game are blatantly and undeniably just dreams.

I'm not making her true real-life version Low 1-C if you've looked at my thread. The only thing that gets full high tier ranking are her fake "real world" version. Even then, I'm open to (And would probably prefer) to just apply these stats to her waking up rather than her having an all-around High 2-A key. It's like what I said before with the virtual world metaphor. Not Low 2-C for the real-life guy, but for the interaction between the real-life guy and the virtual world (Namely, the destruction of the computer).

Them being strong in her dreams is literally the whole basis of my argument. Of course IRL she's just 10-B. But her tier 2 stats comes from a being from the dream facing this "real life" self. But like I said it would probably be better to just rate her waking up stats rather than giving her a full High 2-A key. tl;dr a normal human would be a Low 2-C to a fictional world and would be rated as such if their opponent would be considered to be within said fictional world. (Also Mado and especially Urotsuki do have some powers in their fake "real world" selves, but it's minor)

Regarding the thing about the Matrix in all, I've already addressed this. Rating Kirito as Low 2-C IRL is nonsense if all he does is exist in the real world. But a real world Kirito interacting with the virtual world would have to be rated as Low 2-C, as characters from inside the virtual world would have to face against this real being while inside the simulation (I know that a virtual world isn't infinitely lesser than the real world, that's just an example I'm using). This is why YN even has Tier 2 keys and Type 9 immortality.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I have a suggestion : We apply the 2-C stats where they belong currently, since everyone agrees with it so far. Then, we go ahead and continue debating the "higher-ends" here.

Albeit... I am neutral on said high ends. Both Saikou and Matt seem to have good arguments that literally cancel each other out IMO.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

" That's not the case here. Dreams in this game are blatantly and undeniably just dreams.

I'm not making her true real-life version Low 1-C if you've looked at my thread. The only thing that gets full high tier ranking are her fake "real world" version. Even then, I'm open to (And would probably prefer) to just apply these stats to her waking up rather than her having an all-around High 2-A key. It's like what I said before with the virtual world metaphor. Not Low 2-C for the real-life guy, but for the interaction between the real-life guy and the virtual world (Namely, the destruction of the computer)."

You're not making any sense now.

First you admit that the dreams are just that, dreams. But now you also want to apply High 2-A / 1-C status to people who are just normal girls in real life, because they are more real than their dreams where they have feats.

I could blow up a universe in a dream, it's very possible if you are able to do lucid dreaming. Doesn't mean I'm High 2-A because my dream self is Low 2-C. If I was I'd be conquering the multiverse by now.

"Them being strong in her dreams is literally the whole basis of my argument. Of course IRL she's just 10-B. But her tier 2 stats comes from a being from the dream facing this "real life" self. "

Except that the real life self is still, as you admit, not reality, but another layer of the same dream. It is not a reality-fiction interaction. It's just a dream being an acid trip.

". Rating Kirito as Low 2-C IRL is nonsense if all he does is exist in the real world. But a real world Kirito interacting with the virtual world would have to be rated as Low 2-C, as characters from inside the virtual world would have to face against this real being while inside the simulation"

Not at all. Not even Kayaba who is the Head Programmer and Administrator of Sword Art Online has "Low 2-C" levels of power with his control of the game.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

1. What I mean is just that YN's dream world isn't your Kirby/Touhou example of another dimension acting as the world of dreams.

Like I said (again...), the reason why we'd even have High 2-A/Low 1-C is due to Dream Madotsuki not only having Type 9 based on her "real life" self, but due to destroying it upon waking up. We can't debate Dream Madotsuki without talking about the real world Madotsuki who transcends the Dream World. I did propose to have a key about this "real life" self compared to the Dream World to make debating her different layers easier, but we can drop it in favor of just going with the second option I proposed (Which is Type 9 and varying waking up key).

The whole point of having the key is that this real life self can interact with the lowest dream in some limited manner. And that interaction would be Tier 2/1 from the perspective of the dream world characters. But ONLY from their perspective.

2. It is though. Even if it's inside a dream there is still reality-fiction interaction. Beings from the lowest layer of dream cannot, under any circumstances interact with the higher layer due to being non-existent fiction. The two layers don't freely mesh just to mess with the player, they're constantly treated as separated, and the fake "real world" could as well have been considered the true real world if it wasn't for -Dream Diary-

3. "Control of his game" implies he's just manipulating the coding of the game, not physically nuking it. Besides he doesn't even have a profile so not sure where you're arguing his profile from. AND as I've said, the comparison with a virtual world isn't exact but works enough as a metaphor.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will answer this much later. Not in mood for debate now.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

To quote myself from earlier:

I have a suggestion : We apply the 2-C stats where they belong currently, since everyone agrees with it so far. Then, we go ahead and continue debating the "higher-ends" here.

 

[Kaltias]

1) Is there evidence that those universes are separated space-time continuums?

2) The Jellyfish is a inhabitant of the lowest Dream World that survives the destruction and later exists in the "Fake Real World"?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Seed I'd rather not jump the shark like that when nothing's been quite agreed on already.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Like I said (again...), the reason why we'd even have High 2-A/Low 1-C is due to Dream Madotsuki not only having Type 9 based on her "real life" self, but due to destroying it upon waking up. "

That's not a feat. That's literally just waking up. Everyone can do it. No reason to try to convert it into a Low 1-C feat.

"We can't debate Dream Madotsuki without talking about the real world Madotsuki who transcends the Dream World"

She doesn't transcend it. She sleeps, she dreams, she wakes up. It's a natural thing. You cannot attribute a higher-reality relationship between a person and their dreams. Dream Madotsuki isn't real in the first place. The real-life Madotsuki is 10-B, and trying to treat her like a higher-dimensional deity attached to a lower-dimensional avatar is ridiculoys. It isn't Type 9 immortality or all that. In order for that to work you'd have to treat Dream Madotsuki as the non-existent thing she actually is.

"The whole point of having the key is that this real life self can interact with the lowest dream in some limited manner. And that interaction would be Tier 2/1 from the perspective of the dream world characters. But ONLY from their perspective."

That's an extreme false equivalency. Lucid dreaming won't make you higher-dimensional in your dream. Neither should this. You are trying to attach some sort of cosmological principle to the act of sleeping. It doesn't work like that.

" It is though. Even if it's inside a dream there is still reality-fiction interaction. Beings from the lowest layer of dream cannot, under any circumstances interact with the higher layer due to being non-existent fiction."

[CITATION NEEDED]. Also this sounds extremely speculatory and exaggerated.

And like I said, layers of dream are still one dream. They aren't infinitely less real than each other. You can even have infinite layers without going further than 3D.

"The two layers don't freely mesh just to mess with the player, they're constantly treated as separated, and the fake "real world" could as well have been considered the true real world if it wasn't for -Dream Diary-"

That's not evidence of anything. Dreams can be trippy.

"3. "Control of his game" implies he's just manipulating the coding of the game, not physically nuking it. Besides he doesn't even have a profile so not sure where you're arguing his profile from."

The point is that a real life person with control over a "fake reality" won't necessarily be higher-dimensional in it. Or even universal.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Kaltias

1. They're not physically connected and are pretty much separate plane of existences. Pretty sure assuming they have separated space-time is what we normally assume unless we have any proof against it.

2. Pretty much yeah.

@Matt

It's not a feat because usually, either dream worlds exist independently from the dreamers or we don't rate anything within the dream anyway. It's a quite important mechanic here that Madotsuki can wake up at will and come back at will. And it's pretty much logically impossible for any dream beings to do anything when the dreamer is awake. Because they don't exist at that time. It's not something you can just ignore because "But that's not a feat".

Except that even when dealing with her dream self, the relation between the dream and real world still exists. From the perspective of Dream Madotsuki, her true self is still unreachable by anything in the dream world. And she would still be unable to fully die due to this. The real world elements do not suddenly disappear when we're dealing with the dream characters as true beings, much like the real world elements do not disappear when we treat White Face as 3-A instead of 11-A.

It would, but only from the perspective of dream beings. You'd still be 10-B, but if we want to evaluate the power of your dream self like it was a real being, we'd have to accept this higher dimensional stuff. This is the same here. Again, you can't just ignore it just because they're fiction.

Because the dream gets nuked and reality warped into oblivion, and the real world isn't in any way affected. This is exactly the same as what happens with the "fake" real world and the true real world.

So you're just ignoring stuff because "dream is trippy".

Because they have an avatar within that world that interacts with it normally, much like dream Madotsuki. But when the gloves are off and the real thing tries and interacts with the fake world is what I'm talking about.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just saying that what you are doing is speculation and attempting to assign a reality-fiction interaction that doesn't exist.

 

[DMB_1]

The truth is that they are both 10-Bs because they just fall asleep and dream ovo

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If you think that there is no reality-fiction interaction between a dreamer and their dream just because all of this is also inside a dream, then you're definitively ignoring stuff.

You're basically implying that beings inside the dream would be able to affect and kill stuff in the fake "real world" even though it's been established as impossible. This is pretty much ignoring a pretty solid rule not based on proofs but just on "It's a dream so it doesn't make sense".

@DMB To be fair they probably are truly 10-B in their most real form, but it's not what we're dealing with here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm planning on writing a blog to explain that you can have Infinite levels of reality and simulation without a single "Higher-dimensional" level.

It can be done in real life, with us as the highest level, and all lower levels just being also 3D, just not real. Being unreal to someone else doesn't necessarily. Imply higher dimensions being at play.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What you are ignoring is that the lower dreams are ultimately still the dream of a real person. Essentially it is all the same level of unreality, just divided into sun sets.

Which is another thing, layers don't mean Higher-dimensions either. It took a while for us to get High 2-A onwards Magi, because for a long time it just means individual divisions of a single reality.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You act like being explicitly higher dimensional is the only way to reach higher tiers. Pretty sure that dimensions are really just the most common and easiest way to reach such tier.

Hell our whole basis for higher dimensions being whole tiers above lower ones is that the latter practically don't exist compared to their higher dimensional selves. The whole 2D stuff having 0 mass in 3D space and all. Which is how fiction is to real being. Fictional beings have no physical presence in our world no matter how big or strong they might be.

It is the same level of unreality from the perspective of a "real" being but not to lower ones (As I've said before...) You could have a being see a 7-D multiverse all as fiction with each dimensions being equally as unreal as each other, but it wouldn't change the fact that a 3-D being inside said multiverse IS still infinitely lesser than a 7-D character.

If a character from the lowest dream layer is portrayed as fiction to one from a higher level and thus unable to interact with them in any meaningful ways, why would we assume, in a VS Match, that another character would be able to? Why would, say, someone like Ness (Purely random example) be more able to hit and harm someone from a higher layer of dream than a Torininge?

I'm not throwing around layers randomly to get higher-dimensional stuff. A higher layer is pretty much shown to be explicitly above a lower one. Usually, the layers you're talking about are just like planes of existence, just "stacked" vertically.