Yume Ni/2kki big ass final revision

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My dude. Ever heard of the Simulation Hypothesis? You can have a infinite hierarchy of reality-simulation in real life, if you had the technology to simulate our world with AI Singularity inhabitants, who in turn could make that same simulation in their simulated world, and so on and so on and so on.

In all of these simulations there is three spatial dimensions and time. They are simply not real. Doesn't make us infinite-dimensional or the lowest tier negative-dimensional.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're spouting the exact same arguments as before, but you aren't debunking my main point.

I know very well that making a simulation of infinite dimensions doesn't make us High 1-B. And that Madotsuki dreaming layers of dreams doesn't make her Low 1-C.

But that's not my point. I'm not saying "Madotsuki is actually a higher dimensional entity and the "real world" in Yume Nikki is a higher dimensional place outside our reality". I'm saying that from the point of view of dream characters, the whole dream being destroyed would be Low 1-C to them. The whole point of the Tier 2 keys is basically "If [insert opponent here] would be in that dream, and said dream was to explode on them, how high of a tier would it feel on them?". Reminder that all of what we're discussing only applies to Madotsuki while she's in her dream world. You seem to think that this makes real-world Madotsuki Tier 1.

Saying that Madotsuki's dream destroying can't be Tier 2 because the dream is not real is basically saying Madotsuki can't be Tier 7, 5 or 4 because her dream is not real. From what I see, your whole argument seems to be that virtual worlds should not be tiered at all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But you continually "spout" yourown same argument. And they are wrong, you cannot admit that there are no higher dimensions at play, higher or lower, and then insist that we treat the real-life girls who are actually weaker than their dream selves due to being boundy by what is possible in the real world, Low 1-C "perspective", when this perspective doesn't exist.

It relies heavily on assuming that each dream is more than countably infinitely lower than the former, when such comparisons don't work for something that is not real in the first place. She isn't a Higher-Dimensional god to her dream because the dream isn't a lower dimension. It is still part of the 3rd, it is simply non-existent. Applying Dimensional Tiering to it is bizarre and a false equivalency of what happens.

And that's not my argument. Virtual worlds can be tiered up, hence why he have profiles for this, Matrix, SAO, etc. But the mere act of waking up and "destroying" your dream, which isn't destroying anything because there was never anything to destroy but the figment of your mind, does not make you Tier 2.

Unless you truly believe that you and I are "Universal+" to the perspective of our dreams when we wake up, in which case I am sorry but your interpretation of reality is not sound.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I agree with Matt.

It also occurs to me that nothing else on this thread has been evalulated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think we should give a Low 2-C Neo because he destroys the Matrix in Revolution o3o. The feat would be Low 2-C to the inhabitants of the Matrix, 100% legit.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Matt.
It also occurs to me that nothing else on this thread has been evalulated.

No one had an issue with the other stuff.

But that's now three supporting me. :3 (Da Evah alongside Cal and Prom)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"That perspective doesn't exist" Except it does. Characters are there, experiencing the dream world as real and the real world as beyond it.

The whole reason why we even treat fiction as lower dimensional IS because it's non-existent though. It's not literally a flat plane moving around in a real world, it's just an invention of the mind. This isn't different from a metafictional verse where the ultimate being is represented by a real-life person, just that here, the dream isn't presented in a metafictional way (As in, the real world is still part of the game instead of breaking the fourth wall).

Legit, I feel like you're putting in question whether or not treating something as fiction = transcending it, which would affect far more than just YN.

It doesn't exist from the perspective of the real world. But it still does for the Dream World inhabitants. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but when treating fictional beings as "real" for the sake of debating, what is real and what's not is subjective. You can't say "For the sake of the debate, this being is truly 4-A but it doesn't exist so it can't be higher dimensional".

We would be if we treated our dreams as a real thing (As in a complete world that just so happens to be fictional) for the sake of debating. Which we aren't, most of the time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Except the dream world is nothing more than a hallucination of the character's sleeping minds, and not an entirely lower level of reality created through unconscious reality warping. We don't consider Matrix characters that can interface with the entirety of the Matrix Low 2-C from the Matrix' perspective. This is the same thing.

Again, dreams and spatial dimensions are explictely different, which also creates the problem of you assuming that lower-levels of dreams are lower-levels of reality further, which creates the ridiculousness of normal humans at 1-C.

You have yet to address the simulation hypothesis, which shows that you can have an "Infinite hierarchy" (God I hate this term) of reality and simulation in real life, without the need of spatial dimensions or metaphysics.

In fact, each simulation is 3D and has a flow of time. If they were truly following a dimensional principle all dreams would be 2D, and dreams within dreams would be 1D, and then 0D.

This doesn't happen, showing that the relationship between reality and dream is not like that of Spatial Dimensions.

And no, we absolutely wouldn't. That is ridiculous, and innacurate. We aren't Low 2-C to our dreams. You can't powerscale real life to dreams because the later isn't something that can be quantified or treated as real in the first place.

"You can't say "For the sake of the debate, this being is truly 4-A but it doesn't exist so it can't be higher dimensional"."

I can absolutely say that they aren't higher-dimensional because they only show 4-A feats. I can absolutely say they aren't higher-dimensional because they are in-fact lower-dimensional going by this logic, with the highest level being the mundane 3D reality. You are treating mental hallucinations, dreams of normal humans as outright multiple levels of infinity above the real world.

This is absurd, and I'm sorry, it can't go through.

 

[Kepekley23]

If we actually treat "dream-dreamer" relationship as being above dimensional relationship, I kinda have to call BS.

Your 2-D shadow isn't fiction to you. The 1-D black hole singularity would very, very certainly not be mere fiction to you.

It's unquantifiable, my dudes. I agree with Matt.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You also seem to have ignored my point about the fact that we treat "seeing something as fiction" as higher dimensional. It's something we, as a wiki, do and that you have supported in the past (against me too). If we're going to say "dreams aren't lower dimensional", then we will have to do a lot more than preventing this upgrade. And dreams are exactly the same thing as fiction, a point that you have also ignored.

There is also the fact that treating dreams as 3-D for the sake of debating already doesn't follow reality, since there is no such thing as a "dream world", only images sent in one's brain. So saying that "dreams IRL aren't lower dimensions so we can't treat it as such here" doesn't work.

There is, also, the fact that whatever we do, we HAVE to quantify the relation between dreams and reality here. If you're so vehemently against treating it as higher/lower dimensions, then how woul d you even treat it?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But the dream isn't fiction, my dude. The dream is an unquantifiable product of your head, which does not exist on any real level for you to compare it to.

We treat the dream as "3D" because the whole game is inside the dream and follows feats in the dream, this doesn't make the suddenly normal humans 1-C, even from the perspective of said dream. And yes, it is a legitimate argument. You are trying to fiddle around with how dreams even work to legitimaly claim that a little girl can be considered 1-C for... having dreams within dreams.

If this dimensional analogy worked remotely like you insisted, the lowest level of the dream would have to be 0D, seeing as the top layer is 3D.

But it ain't, all layers are 3D, just that all dream-layers are equally nonexistent, rendering the dimensions comparison null and void.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"There is, also, the fact that whatever we do, we HAVE to quantify the relation between dreams and reality here. If you're so vehemently against treating it as higher/lower dimensions, then how woul d you even treat it?"

I dream of a universe. That doesn't make me universal, not even from the perspective of a dream. It's just a f*cking dream, it's your imagination at work while you are unconscious.

It cannot be quantified as higher/lower realities, period.

 

[DMB_1]

Hory shitto, Matt strikes again.

 

[DMB_1]

bump