Yu-Gi-Oh! GX and 2-C: The Last of Many.

[Zencha9]

If not, I'm pretty someone in staff probably has a list. Though I guess I could explain it from what I understand it as.

i asked some in discord

update : i asked someone on discord there's no standards for NEP
there's standards for timeless voids for speed

 

[SomebodyData]

yeah but immediately right after aqua dolphin clarifies that he meant neo space and i quote
"neosupēsu, neo uchu"

Yeah, which would imply that uchu is being used in a different definition than supēsu. As supēsu only means space, uchu would therefore just be one of the other definitions, in this case universe as per the translation.

same as above aqua dolphin immediately clarifies that the uchu he's talking about is neo space ( neosupēsu )

Yeah, he just calls it a universe and contrasts it with Jaden's.

update : i asked someone on discord there's no standards for NEP
there's standards for timeless voids for speed

I know NEP did get some informal standards after some confusion with AE and intangibility (also ended up splitting NEP into two types), it's just the void standards I'm looking for.

But it doesn't really matter, the World of Darkness obviously isn't a true void as shown by its 'sea' appearance:

Not to mention it causes an eclipse, which a void shouldn't be able to do as it would lack any matter to create such a shade.

Although it being a void doesn't really matter either, its a tier 5 universe or tier 5 void its the same thing here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

I'll let Zencha sum up his last points to not misrepresent them:

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

Which reminded that Neo Space was actually called a universe twice- should have remembered that sooner.

@Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

This discussion is taking a very long time. Are you willing to help evaluate it please?

 

[Antvasima]

My bad, thought that the void standards were on that page/crt. Give me a moment to find them. @Antvasima you wouldn't happen to know where our void standards are, if we have a page for them.

Here they are:

Speed

Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed. The speed at which an attack moves. For...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[QuasiYuri]

they are stated to be universes 2, times (uchu) and are stated to work on quantum theory and were stated to be space times in the duel monster series im pretty sure that qualifies

What's the counter argument to these specifics scans? Seems like pretty solid evidence of them being universes to me.

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah, which would imply that uchu is being used in a different definition than supēsu. As supēsu only means space, uchu would therefore just be one of the other definitions, in this case universe as per the translation.

Yeah, he just calls it a universe and contrasts it with Jaden's.

we already went over this that auqa dolphin is clarifying that he meant neo space when he says this statement
and states same thing twice and that neo supēsu and and neo uchu are the same in quote "neo supēsu, neo uchu"
not to mention that they are used for the exact same meaning this is not from my mouth this is from the mouth of translators who know japanese
and i'm not gonna take your interpation over some people who have knowledge about how japanese works and have been translating yugioh for literal decades

But it doesn't really matter, the World of Darkness obviously isn't a true void as shown by its 'sea' appearance:


Not to mention it causes an eclipse, which a void shouldn't be able to do as it would lack any matter to create such a shade.

just because it looks like a sea doesn't mean it's one like we literally see how the sea is is not physical when it shows us the fears of askua, manjoume etc
i am arguing that in the inside it is a void, like the reason to why everyone would be immortal there is because it is a void

 

[Zencha9]

What's the counter argument to these specifics scans? Seems like pretty solid evidence of them being universes to me.

the counter to this is that the world of darknesss consumed them but is still comparable to the planet
my argument against that is that the world of darkness is a void in the inside that will make people live forever by erasing everything inside the world of darkness and fully become one with the world of darkness

 

[Ogbunabali]

@Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

This discussion is taking a very long time. Are you willing to help evaluate it please?

I'll be honest, it should just be put to a vote. Pretty much nothing has changed from the beginning of the thread, the same scans are being circled around and the same arguments are being repeated in slightly different wording. I still think SomebodyData makes more sense.

 

[Alonik]

I had a very huge participation in the last thread, can I also defend the points that i made there? I will add points that I think both @Zencha9 and @SomebodyData
couldn't get to, likely because they were just arguing over the scans I sent.

 

[Zencha9]

@Ogbunabali well alot of stuff did happen mostly more context to the translations and how uchu is used and has been translated and i asked alot of translators that did agree with space as the actual translation for uchu rather than universe, since neo uchu and neo supēsu are used for the exact same meaning
so half of his arguments are debunked until he brings up someone who knows about japanese saying that uchu in the context of gx means universe

and SD's 2nd point regarding how the world of darkness is only comparable to earth after absorbing the 12 dimensions doesn't even make sense in the verse since even if we take his interpretation as the correct one then the world of darkness would be 11 times bigger than earth not comparable to it
and that is ignoring how darkness can erase beings inside his world etc

 

[Alonik]

Planck69 gave permission for me to argue here.

I sincerely think both debated endlessly on something out of context. But to begin with, in the Episode 177 – The Terrifying Combo! Zero and Infinity, when we see the world of darkness being said reflected in Judai's eyes it is not talking about that being the size of the earth, that was Judai's interpretation because that layer of darkness had grown through the earth's collective unconscious. And the size on the mortal plane should not reflect the size of the darkness invading the duel spirit world as well.

First it is good to explain that the world of darkness has existed since before the Big Bang that generated all creation and the stars of the universe themselves.

• The formless void of darkness before the big bang - Episode 177
• Nightshroud also explaining that the stars were born after his world - Episode 177

Henceforth, the explanation that is used in this scan refers to the universe he was explaining just a few seconds before, and I think the crunchyroll translation is definitely better regarding this frame. But before I start talking about why it is wrong to scale that layer as an argument for the size of the dimensions beyond the points above, I want to remind y'all that I had already shown that the existence of the first card generating the light that merges into the fragment of darkness, called "gentle darkness", which is said in the movie to have generated a creation of infinite universes. Besides, of course, that this event is a constant in all works of Yu-Gi-Oh.

• The Light and Darkness generating all the infinite universes in the movie Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Dark Side of Dimensions
• The king explaining the creation of the cosmology to Yubel - Episode 155 – Rainbow Neos Versus the Ultimate Yubel
  • this "gentle Darkness" refers to the darkness merged with the light in the big bang and is the power of the Supreme King (Judai), which was part of the nightshroud, the void before creation.

This is something that has existed as a basic principle since the Duel Monster, even the most recent seasons, it is something that resonates with the Yu-Gi-Oh canon itself, so much so that the creator of the movie explicitly says that the event of infinite universes was about this multiverse being created by light and darkness. Nevertheless, there are still things to be taken into account, first is the fact that the the darkness was invading the realms due to a dimensional rift.

• The sum of the events with the sacred beasts, the light that Takuma Saio was bringing to the universe, and the spark that was Yubel against Judai broke the dimensional barrier around the island, and brought darkness to the mortal world - Episode 177

From here we can interpret that the layer of darkness is a portal to another world, in the simplest way. That's why it was mirroring the earth, but it's good to remember that it would expand much further. It had expanded throughout the entire duel spirit world and existed between all the worlds (universes). Just the fact that it would still grow after the fight against Judai already takes away the question of having just the size of the earth that dimensional gap, because that, as Nightshroud himself said was to return everything to the state before the big bang. And we can see that the darkness that is him, is always referred to as something that precedes everything, he even mentions that the stars were born after the darkness that is what he is.

• Honest saying that the "world" of darkness that existed between the worlds was small and growing slowly, until it expanded into the duel spirit world, and then we see nothing more - Episode 160

it is very inconsistent just the idea of reflecting the size of the spatial dilation that led to the darkness "world", which was already the size of the earth at tha time just to say that darkness "word" has a planetary size, when it is literally said to be bigger than the multiverse when you look at all the quotes from all the canon, and the only thing we can take away is that the darkness was wanting to take the entirety of creation to exist only the void of nothingness/darkness again.

Therefores, there is no difference between the Darkness and the "Darkness World" to reduce its size and say that it is just something on a planetary scale. And don't forget about my countless pleonasm, Nightshroud makes it very clear that his "world" is something that served as a canvas for the first card that generated the Big Bang.

 

[Antvasima]

Alonik:

Okay, so what tiers do you suggest that we assign then?

 

[SomebodyData]

What's the counter argument to these specifics scans? Seems like pretty solid evidence of them being universes to me.

I haven't argued they aren't universes / dimensions, just that their size isn't the same as our universe.

 

[SomebodyData]

Planck69 gave permission for me to argue here.

I sincerely think both debated endlessly on something out of context. But to begin with, in the Episode 177 – The Terrifying Combo! Zero and Infinity, when we see the world of darkness being said reflected in Judai's eyes it is not talking about that being the size of the earth, that was Judai's interpretation because that layer of darkness had grown through the earth's collective unconscious. And the size on the mortal plane should not reflect the size of the darkness invading the duel spirit world as well.

A fair interpretation had the world of darkness not physically emerged in the universe as only big enough to cause an eclipse.

And the size on the mortal plane should not reflect the size of the darkness invading the duel spirit world as well.

And this part is a complete conjuncture, mostly because it's not stated to be separate from the world of darkness / to be unrelated to when it consumed the 12 dimensions.

First it is good to explain that the world of darkness has existed since before the Big Bang that generated all creation and the stars of the universe themselves.

• The formless void of darkness before the big bang - Episode 177
• Nightshroud also explaining that the stars were born after his world - Episode 177

Not related to size. I'm also starting to think there is some confusion on the opposition. I haven't been arguing that the dimensions/universes aren't universes, just not the size of the regular universe.

Henceforth, the explanation that is used in this scan refers to the universe he was explaining just a few seconds before, and I think the crunchyroll translation is definitely better regarding this frame. But before I start talking about why it is wrong to scale that layer as an argument for the size of the dimensions beyond the points above, I want to remind y'all that I had already shown that the existence of the first card generating the light that merges into the fragment of darkness, called "gentle darkness", which is said in the movie to have generated a creation of infinite universes. Besides, of course, that this event is a constant in all works of Yu-Gi-Oh.

• The Light and Darkness generating all the infinite universes in the movie Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Dark Side of Dimensions
• The king explaining the creation of the cosmology to Yubel - Episode 155 – Rainbow Neos Versus the Ultimate Yubel
  • this "gentle Darkness" refers to the darkness merged with the light in the big bang and is the power of the Supreme King (Judai), which was part of the nightshroud, the void before creation.

This is something that has existed as a basic principle since the Duel Monster, even the most recent seasons, it is something that resonates with the Yu-Gi-Oh canon itself, so much so that the creator of the movie explicitly says that the event of infinite universes was about this multiverse being created by light and darkness. Nevertheless, there are still things to be taken into account, first is the fact that the the darkness was invading the realms due to a dimensional rift.

Dark Side of Dimensions is non-canon to the anime unfortunately, the movie is a sequel to the manga.

[*]The sum of the events with the sacred beasts, the light that Takuma Saio was bringing to the universe, and the spark that was Yubel against Judai broke the dimensional barrier around the island, and brought darkness to the mortal world - Episode 177

From here we can interpret that the layer of darkness is a portal to another world, in the simplest way. That's why it was mirroring the earth, but it's good to remember that it would expand much further. It had expanded throughout the entire duel spirit world and existed between all the worlds (universes). Just the fact that it would still grow after the fight against Judai already takes away the question of having just the size of the earth that dimensional gap, because that, as Nightshroud himself said was to return everything to the state before the big bang. And we can see that the darkness that is him, is always referred to as something that precedes everything, he even mentions that the stars were born after the darkness that is what he is.

[*]Honest saying that the "world" of darkness that existed between the worlds was small and growing slowly, until it expanded into the duel spirit world, and then we see nothing more - Episode 160

it is very inconsistent just the idea of reflecting the size of the spatial dilation that led to the darkness "world", which was already the size of the earth at tha time just to say that darkness "word" has a planetary size, when it is literally said to be bigger than the multiverse when you look at all the quotes from all the canon, and the only thing we can take away is that the darkness was wanting to take the entirety of creation to exist only the void of nothingness/darkness again.

Therefores, there is no difference between the Darkness and the "Darkness World" to reduce its size and say that it is just something on a planetary scale. And don't forget about my countless pleonasm, Nightshroud makes it very clear that his "world" is something that served as a canvas for the first card that generated the Big Bang.

The portal theory is a good theory but that's it. Not stated ever and debunked by the fact that Nightshroud stated the World of Darkness has people trapped within it. Which we see in the planet-sized world of darkness:

However, you reminded me of this scan, which reconfirms what I was saying: the world of darkness started small and consumed the universes prior to attacking Earth.

 

[Zencha9]

I haven't argued they aren't universes / dimensions, just that their size isn't the same as our universe.

this doesn't make sense to me since the 12 dimensions (or at least what was shown) have starry skies
unless the 12 dimensions would refer to the planets by your interpretation

 

[Alonik]

Not related to size. I'm also starting to think there is some confusion on the opposition. I haven't been arguing that the dimensions/universes aren't universes, just not the size of the regular universe.

I literally provided scans showing that the World of Darkness served as canvas for the creation of the universe, and the universe as well has a universal size. The same world of darkness that you are trying to argue that is only planetary in size, well, from the moment you used it to scale the size of dimensions, I will also use it to scale with the pretext of saying that it is bigger than the universe that is comparable in size to ours, which is one of the twelve dimension as well.

The portal theory is a good theory but that's it. Not stated ever and debunked by the fact that Nightshroud stated the World of Darkness has people trapped within it. Which we see in the planet-sized world of darkness:

However, you reminded me of this scan, which reconfirms what I was saying: the world of darkness started small and consumed the universes prior to attacking Earth.

That doesn't contradict me at all, it's just a vague argument. Saying that humans were sucked into another realm does not debunk the idea I presented of being a dimensional dilation in space that grew as it dominated space.

Also, very interesting you using this scan of humans swallowed in a void, which right after is said to be the canvas of the universe. This whole context only comes down to what I've already said about the world of darkness being something that precedes and served as a canvas for the universe.

Btw, humans and cards being there doesn't change from being a portal, and not an eclipse, which was expanding through all dimensions. In fact, whoever analyzes it, pay attention that he didn't even show the size of this "eclipse" after expanding inside the duel spirit world to claim that it was only planetary in size, he's just scaling the portal that was expanding through the earth as if that was the full and final size.

@SomebodyData you are heavily side-stepping the point that it was said as something that started small and while it was still expanding, and you are using the size of when it became larger than the Earth to say that it is the size of the other dimensions, whereas it was never said that this was the final size of the darkness.
In fact, the portal created on earth was made from the consciousness of humans, while in the other dimensions it invaded because it existed between them.

If you submit a scan that the final size of darkness after absorbing any of the dimensions (where was it said to absorb them all again?) was of a planetary size, that's fine. Until then, if you just do a scalling with the size of the portal made by the consciousness of humans on earth, which was still growing, frankly, I'd rather a vote be called soon, because your argument is just vague and baseless.

Alonik:

Okay, so what tiers do you suggest that we assign then?

With the proofs presented in both threads, and excluding the canonicity of DsoD only 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We still need some more staff input here though.

 

[Zencha9]

i still think using darkness to disprove the 12 dimensions being universes does not make any sense
since if we assume the 12 dimensions are only planets the world of darkness would still be 11 times bigger than earth which is not the case

so you would be stuck with 2 choices for this to make any sense
1-the world of darkness that wants to absorb the planet is not the same one who absorbed the other 11 dimensions
2-or the world of darkness simply erased the 11 dimensions which he has shown to erase beings inisde his world in order to become fully with darkness and makes the most sense to me

 

[SomebodyData]

i still think using darkness to disprove the 12 dimensions being universes does not make any sense
since if we assume the 12 dimensions are only planets the world of darkness would still be 11 times bigger than earth which is not the case

so you would be stuck with 2 choices for this to make any sense
1-the world of darkness that wants to absorb the planet is not the same one who absorbed the other 11 dimensions
2-or the world of darkness simply erased the 11 dimensions which he has shown to erase beings inisde his world in order to become fully with darkness and makes the most sense to me

1st. Not saying they're planets. Just not the size of universes.
2nd. Uh, planets have different sizes. Also if they're all 5-C individually like Neo Space then that would still make sense.

The issue with your ultimatum is that:
1 - Just headcanon
2 - Not possible, since again we literally see it consume said dimensions.

 

[Zencha9]

stuff

1st but they would still mirror earth and thus would be comparable to it
2nd so in this context the 12 dimensions would be the planets the cast arrive in , and the moons/stars/constellations would be ignored yeah ?
1 - true
2 - that does not stop him from erasing them like i find this couter argument strange since i never implied that the world of darkness is a place that erases everything based on touch alone , all i said that he can erase them after he absorbs them

 

[SomebodyData]

I literally provided scans showing that the World of Darkness served as canvas for the creation of the universe, and the universe as well has a universal size. The same world of darkness that you are trying to argue that is only planetary in size, well, from the moment you used it to scale the size of dimensions, I will also use it to scale with the pretext of saying that it is bigger than the universe that is comparable in size to ours, which is one of the twelve dimension as well.

For one, being the canvas of the universe (Which your scans contradict as I'll show below) doesn't mean it's low 2-C. As it wasn't the darkness that created the universe, but Numeron Dragon. Using the darkness to do so (Again wrong, but I'll show that in a bit), doesn't make it low 2-C.

That doesn't contradict me at all, it's just a vague argument. Saying that humans were sucked into another realm does not debunk the idea I presented of being a dimensional dilation in space that grew as it dominated space.

Also, very interesting you using this scan of humans swallowed in a void, which right after is said to be the canvas of the universe. This whole context only comes down to what I've already said about the world of darkness being something that precedes and served as a canvas for the universe.

You said the World of Darkness we see isn't actually the world of darkness. I pointed out that Nightshroud said they're in the World of Darkness. Then I provided a scan showing that they're in the one we see that is attacking Earth. Nothing vague, just pointing your headcanon is just that.

Btw, humans and cards being there doesn't change from being a portal, and not an eclipse, which was expanding through all dimensions. In fact, whoever analyzes it, pay attention that he didn't even show the size of this "eclipse" after expanding inside the duel spirit world to claim that it was only planetary in size, he's just scaling the portal that was expanding through the earth as if that was the full and final size.

Dude. If it's an eclipse, it doesn't matter what the size is. It's clearly lower than anything near low 2-C.

@SomebodyData you are heavily side-stepping the point that it was said as something that started small and while it was still expanding, and you are using the size of when it became larger than the Earth to say that it is the size of the other dimensions, whereas it was never said that this was the final size of the darkness.

I literally just used the fact that the world of darkness was small and then expanded against you last post. Read the end of my post and you'll see it there.

And again, that scan literally debunks your entire argument, as if being the canvas of the universe meant low 2-C, then how come it started out so small? I mean even Honest for crying out loud said it was tiny. Have you considered for a second, they literally mentioned the canvas was a card. It is inherently small to begin with.

In fact, the portal created on earth was made from the consciousness of humans, while in the other dimensions it invaded because it existed between them.

If you submit a scan that the final size of darkness after absorbing any of the dimensions (where was it said to absorb them all again?) was of a planetary size, that's fine. Until then, if you just do a scalling with the size of the portal made by the consciousness of humans on earth, which was still growing, frankly, I'd rather a vote be called soon, because your argument is just vague and baseless.

.......How large do you think an eclipse can be? Legitimately asking because you seem to think that there is a way to get low 2-C from that scene and I'm just bewildered by the idea.

I'll call for a vote then if you'd like, Zencha and I were supposed to issue our final summaries earlier even but got back into debate.

 

[SomebodyData]

1st but they would still mirror earth and thus would be comparable to it
2nd so in this context the 12 dimensions would be the planets the cast arrive in , and the moons/stars/constellations would be ignored yeah ?
1 - true
2 - that does not stop him from erasing them like i find this couter argument strange since i never implied that the world of darkness is a place that erases everything based on touch alone , all i said that he can erase them after he absorbs them

1st. Mirroring Earth in a parallel dimension sort of way wouldn't mean they are actually the same size of Earth. Like an alt. universe of Earth could be the size of a city and it'd still be parallel.
2nd. That response was slightly on the nose since I've already mentioned I don't think the dimensions are planets for the 8th, maybe 9th time.
2 - I mean, sure. But it'd retain the size, as shown by the world of darkness not shrinking when it absorbs people. Not to mention, it erases again, via absorption.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Zencha9

Actually, since Alonik wants this to be put into a vote, you okay with making a short summary ala what I did earlier for staff to see?

 

[Zencha9]

1st fair enough
2nd then tell me exactly what darkness is abosrping since you're making it pretty vauge and it could cause contradictions
2-sure, but they still get erased psychically iirc even someone says that their existence at that level is erased

Actually, since Alonik wants this to be put into a vote, you okay with making a short summary ala what I did earlier for staff to see?

after you answer the these questions
sure

 

[Alonik]

For one, being the canvas of the universe (Which your scans contradict as I'll show below) doesn't mean it's low 2-C. As it wasn't the darkness that created the universe, but Numeron Dragon. Using the darkness to do so (Again wrong, but I'll show that in a bit), doesn't make it low 2-C.

I never said it was the darkness. I said the darkness was the void before the Big Bang, and it is literally said that a card that created the universe in Nightshroud's explanation. Later in the next few seasons it was said that that card was the Numeron Dragon.

You said the World of Darkness we see isn't actually the world of darkness. I pointed out that Nightshroud said they're in the World of Darkness. Then I provided a scan showing that they're in the one we see that is attacking Earth. Nothing vague, just pointing your headcanon is just that.

Two strawman in a row. I literally just said it was a portal leading to the void outside the universe, which is the world of darkness.

Dude. If it's an eclipse, it doesn't matter what the size is. It's clearly lower than anything near low 2-C.

It is an eclipse only in your interpretation, despite your personal view, Nightshroud himself was saying that it would absorb the entire universe over time, because the universe took part of the existence of darkness.

I literally just used the fact that the world of darkness was small and then expanded against you last post. Read the end of my post and you'll see it there.

And again, that scan literally debunks your entire argument, as if being the canvas of the universe meant low 2-C, then how come it started out so small? I mean even Honest for crying out loud said it was tiny. Have you considered for a second, they literally mentioned the canvas was a card. It is inherently small to begin with.

That was her size within the universe, she was taking over the universe with time. Also, it's interesting that here you use the scan of the card that created the universe, but right before that you were trying to discredit what i said with a strawman that you created. You should be a little more reasonable to argue about this, no wonder this thread just keeps extending infinitely to others.

.......How large do you think an eclipse can be? Legitimately asking because you seem to think that there is a way to get low 2-C from that scene and I'm just bewildered by the idea.

Well, you are the one who persists that it's just an eclipse, the work makes it clear several times that it would increase in size until it swallowed the entire universe, and returned the universe to the state before the big bang.

 

[SomebodyData]

1st fair enough
2nd then tell me exactly what darkness is abosrping since you're making it pretty vauge and it could cause contradictions
2-sure, but they still get erased psychically iirc even someone says that their existence at that level is erased

after you answer the these questions
sure

I mean, if I answer the questions, that would just end the argument. The voting was just for speed.

2nd It's shown in your scans.

2 - I know the scans you're talking about:

With the context of the consciousness' melting, it's just the absorption basically adds them to the Darkness and thus they no longer exist.

 

[SomebodyData]

I never said it was the darkness. I said the darkness was the void before the Big Bang, and it is literally said that a card that created the universe in Nightshroud's explanation. Later in the next few seasons it was said that that card was the Numeron Dragon.

Yeah, I know. I'm pointing out that therefore by your own admission the low 2-C feat belongs to Numeron Dragon, not the Darkness.

Two strawman in a row. I literally just said it was a portal leading to the void outside the universe, which is the world of darkness.

It is an eclipse only in your interpretation, despite your personal view, Nightshroud himself was saying that it would absorb the entire universe over time, because the universe took part of the existence of darkness.

You literally posted the scan showing it only eclipsed the sun. How are you even denying this?

I've never denied it would not be able to eat the universe over time, especially since we know it grows proportionately to what it eats. But that's irrelevant, we don't hold hypothetical profiles like "Nightshroud (What if the Darkness won)".

That was her size within the universe, she was taking over the universe with time. Also, it's interesting that here you use the scan of the card that created the universe, but right before that you were trying to discredit what i said with a strawman that you created. You should be a little more reasonable to argue about this, no wonder this thread just keeps extending infinitely to others.

Well, you are the one who persists that it's just an eclipse, the work makes it clear several times that it would increase in size until it swallowed the entire universe, and returned the universe to the state before the big bang.

Ironic you keep saying I strawmanned you when you based most of this response off a massive strawman. Ask even Zencha- I've made it very clear I believe the world of darkness continues to grow as it consumes (It's literally the crux of my argument). You've been debating with some imaginary version of me this entire time.

In the off chance you just didn't read any of the thread or even the original post, let me reiterate the basic argument I've said:

The World of Darkness started small, grew as it consumed the dimensions, before arriving at Earth big enough to cause an eclipse. Therefore, by the end of GX AKA for our profiles it is 5-B.

 

[Alonik]

I've never denied it would not be able to eat the universe over time, especially since we know it grows proportionately to what it eats. But that's irrelevant, we don't hold hypothetical profiles like "Nightshroud (What if the Darkness won)".

That's the point, the darkness itself is bigger than the universe at its origin, she was just wanting everything to go back to being her. We don't need to scale the "overtime"

Ironic you keep saying I strawmanned you when you based most of this response off a massive strawman. Ask even Zencha- I've made it very clear I believe the world of darkness continues to grow as it consumes (It's literally the crux of my argument). You've been debating with some imaginary version of me this entire time.

Thankfully you have a strong position that it grew exponentially, so here it is something very strong that cannot scale the incomplete size on top of the earth as the size of the other dimensions.

In the off chance you just didn't read any of the thread or even the original post, let me reiterate the basic argument I've said:

The World of Darkness started small, grew as it consumed the dimensions, before arriving at Earth big enough to cause an eclipse. Therefore, by the end of GX AKA for our profiles it is 5-B.

I understand all these points, look again at my arguments that I differentiate the event from the duel monster dimension to the earth. The darkness only awakened on earth due to the human collective unconscious, not because it absorbed the duel spirit world. Also because it would be impossible to absorb the spirit world and then the mortal plane, since it is the spiritual plane itself that maintains the existence of the mortal plane, that's why I asked for the evidence where it's already absorbed the entire spiritual world.

 

[Zencha9]

2nd It's shown in your scans.

i meant the dimensions, what exactly did darkness absorb when he attacked the 12 dimensions a moon a solar system do these count under the 12 dimensions by your interpretation ?
lTLDR: with your interpretation what would be the size of the 12 dimensions

With the context of the consciousness' melting, it's just the absorption basically adds them to the Darkness and thus they no longer exist.

eh i could contest to this because they sperate memories from existence but i'll leave that for the big post

 

[Antvasima]

SomebodyData and Zencha9:

Can you both write summaries of your arguments here, so I can ask our staff to evaluate the posts again?

 

[Zencha9]

btw i found in the summary of ep 62 that they call neo space a sub-space ( scan , source )
translation
clarification
so here ya go can't get any more obvious than this, neo space is being called a sub-space and this basically debunks the uchu semantics arguments

 

[Jeune_fou]

I confirm what was said by Zencha: I rewatched season 2 ENTIRELY and neo space is always referred to as a sub space. In fact when they say "Neo space" they don't say "Neo Uchû" (uchû being written "宇宙". Uchû can be translated as "universe" or "space") but instead they use "ネオスペース" (Neosupēsu). So basically they're pronouncing the english word "space", and the fact "スペース" (space) is used is a choice destined to make a clear distinction between neo space and the rest of the space/universe and that neo space (the latter being a sub space).

Also, Neo Space is NOT part of the 12 dimensions (so that debunks the theory about the 12 dimensions being 12 planets within the human universe), because not even once during the WHOLE season 2 the words "次元" ("jigen" which means "dimension") or "異次元" ("ijigen" which means "different dimension") were used (while the words "universe" or "space" were very often used). However the fact they magically started to use the words "jigen" or "ijigen" since season 3 proves the anime makes a clear distinction bewteen "universe" (which refers to the human universe), "space" (which is often used to refer to sub spaces like neo space) and "jigen/ijigen" used to refer to the 12 dimensions (one of them being the human universe and the 11 other ones being duel monster spirit dimensions. Each dimension is as big as other ones (because the quantum theory mentionned by Misawa Daichi who worked on it with dr Zweinstein states they're "parallel worlds" and in addition to that the doctor's radar shows 12 squares identical in size).

Also talking about Dr Zweinstein, when he is introduced in episode 96 he states there are multiple universes. Also we know he isn't referring to sub spaces but to ENTIRE universe because when he uses his field spell Relativity Field, the hologram of a whole universe appears (and Misawa Daichi confirms this is the type of universe he talked about). This is later backed up by the the whole season 3 where his theory was not only never debunked but proven right.

I also took screenshots that show Dr Zweinstein is famous and is the best expert in his domain. Also he has an IQ of 173. So this character clearly has a huge authority in his research domain in the world of Yu-Gi-Oh.

As if all this wasn't enough during episode 153 (season 3), Judai refers to the light of destruction as the force that tried to "destroy the universe", once again a proof the anime makes a clear distinction between "universe" (human universe) and other dimensions. In season 2 there are dozens and dozens of instances the light of destruction was said to be a threat to the universe but none of the dimension was involved in the light of destruction crisis from season 2 (since the world "dimension" isn't even used to refer to the gx's cosmology in that precise season). It's not for nothing they "magically" talked about "dimensions" only in season 3 and 4 but never in season 2.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll be able to respond significantly more in two days, but I wanted to drop some clarifications for Zencha's and Jeune's comments.

Jeune
Like I mentioned earlier, I haven't argued that neo space is one of the 12 dimensions in this thread. I don't mean to be rude but I've had to repeat this already over 10 times and I'm sure most staff reading are also tired of this.

Zencha

I don't think Subspace means what you think it means.

You concluded the thread, but not in the way I think you intended.

 

[Zencha9]

I don't think Subspace means what you think it means.
You concluded the thread, but not in the way I think you intended.

your assertion was that it's a universe yeah ? absolutely none of what you shown says that

space contained in another space

great

a hypothetical space time continuum used for communication at speed faster than light (used in science fiction)

good luck proving that in the show

 

[Jeune_fou]

Like I mentioned earlier, I haven't argued that neo space is one of the 12 dimensions in this thread. I don't mean to be rude but I've had to repeat this already over 10 times and I'm sure most staff reading are also tired of this.

Sorry, I assumed you were because several years ago I remembered this was an argument you employed to say the 12 dimensions were 12 planets within the human universe (for my defense: the fact you mentioned neo space confused me).

Anyway even without this, Dr Zweinstein still mentions there are multiple universes (and he also precises each of them contains several worlds) which was never debunked or denied (if it was then either him or Misawa Daichi would say it at some point) and in fact reinforced by the fact the doctor and Misawa Daichi later conducted experiments (an accident transported Misawa Daichi in the desert dimension) about it which shows the dimensions are the famous "other universes that contain worlds inside of them". Interestingly enough he doesn't even consider that to be a theory but a factual thing and note he has the most logical brain of mankind (therefore he wouldn't dare to lecture someone about how the universes work if that was just a theory)

Also like I said earlier the japanese words that refer to dimensions ("次元" and "異次元") aren't pronounced even once during season 2 outside of card names during duels which shows duel monster dimensions were never in danger during the light of destruction crisis (despite it being treated as a threat to the whole universe). And therefore the cosmology in gx is the one of a low multiverse which is also confirmed by Yubel ... Twice since she described them as universes. So yeah we have one scientist with a huge authority within the ygo world who says there are multiple universes who all contain several worlds as well as a main antagonist who confirms it.

 

[Antvasima]

We still need some more staff evaluations here. SD, would you be willing to write summaries of the discussion so far for them?

 

[Zencha9]

@SomebodyData
all of this confusion could've been avoided if you gave a clear answer about your interptation of the cosmology and how big do you think the 12 dimensions are because all you've been saying that the 12 dimensions aren't as big as our universe with no further elaboration as far as i remember

 

[Zencha9]

With the context of the consciousness' melting, it's just the absorption basically adds them to the Darkness and thus they no longer exist.

i asked someone about this and it still seems to be EE since and i quote
"if something consumes you and all your components cease to exist I think that still counts as EE
Rather than just having them added to whatever is eating you'

 

[SomebodyData]

your assertion was that it's a universe yeah ? absolutely none of what you shown says that

great

good luck proving that in the show

You literally just moments ago argued it completely debunked my argument- and now that I point out it proves it you just want to discard your own point?

@SomebodyData
all of this confusion could've been avoided if you gave a clear answer about your interptation of the cosmology and how big do you think the 12 dimensions are because all you've been saying that the 12 dimensions aren't as big as our universe with no further elaboration as far as i remember

Well I'm pretty sure I mentioned I just think they're either around tier 5, based on how Neo Space is stated to be the size of a moon.

EDIT: Checked OP, yeah, I mentioned that.

i asked someone about this and it still seems to be EE since and i quote
"if something consumes you and all your components cease to exist I think that still counts as EE
Rather than just having them added to whatever is eating you'

You're probably right, but it'd still be adding the mass/size to the World of Darkness with this method. It wouldn't be like, for example, Hakai from Dragon Ball.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry, I assumed you were because several years ago I remembered this was an argument you employed to say the 12 dimensions were 12 planets within the human universe (for my defense: the fact you mentioned neo space confused me).

Anyway even without this, Dr Zweinstein still mentions there are multiple universes (and he also precises each of them contains several worlds) which was never debunked or denied (if it was then either him or Misawa Daichi would say it at some point) and in fact reinforced by the fact the doctor and Misawa Daichi later conducted experiments (an accident transported Misawa Daichi in the desert dimension) about it which shows the dimensions are the famous "other universes that contain worlds inside of them". Interestingly enough he doesn't even consider that to be a theory but a factual thing and note he has the most logical brain of mankind (therefore he wouldn't dare to lecture someone about how the universes work if that was just a theory)

Also like I said earlier the japanese words that refer to dimensions ("次元" and "異次元") aren't pronounced even once during season 2 outside of card names during duels which shows duel monster dimensions were never in danger during the light of destruction crisis (despite it being treated as a threat to the whole universe). And therefore the cosmology in gx is the one of a low multiverse which is also confirmed by Yubel ... Twice since she described them as universes. So yeah we have one scientist with a huge authority within the ygo world who says there are multiple universes who all contain several worlds as well as a main antagonist who confirms it.

Well the argument back then was that they were around the size of planets rather than actual planets iirc.

And I don't disagree with them being universes, just not low 2-C universes. My argument is that they're 5-B universes, which is a lot more common than I think most people realize. Like Battleworld from Marvel's 2016 Secret Wars (Although in their case it was an entire multiverse condensed into one planet).

The World of Darkness did threaten the other dimensions though; if you remember, Yubel's mind was influenced by the Light. Also it tried to attack Neo Space too.