Yu-Gi-Oh! GX and 2-C: The Last of Many.

[SomebodyData]

It is a VsBattles tradition to have a seasonal YuGiOh CRT at this point. Recently, one thread has passed through. To certify or rebuke the outcome of the thread, I've made this final staff thread. Of course, @Zencha9 (Original poster of the thread) is allowed to comment and state his arguments for the upgrade while I'll also be the participant on the disagreement.

And I say final because the repetitiveness of this topic among others has been ridiculous. After this, I think I'll be agreeing to a previous suggestion by staff restricting Low 2-C GX discussions based on the Gentle Darkness or 12 dimensions.

---------------------------------------------

The current reasoning for the upgrade, paraphrasing from the thread is that Yubel intended to merge and destroy the 12 dimensions present in GX. Zencha will provide his arguments within his own post, but I'll present my points down below.

The World of Darkness (Which is intended to consume said 12 dimensions later on) eclipses the sun (3:04) and is shown to only be the size of Earth. This is also after Honest claims that it's actually getting amped by the corruption of various duel cards (6:00-6:56), meaning this mirror reflection is larger than it would be when it attacks another one of the 12 dimensions. It should also be mentioned that it refers to the Earth as the universe and the World of Darkness as its equal in the latter two panels. We also know that it consumed the Waking the Dragons world before arriving at Earth, meaning that dimension is also, at best, planetary.

And this isn't a case of a "bigger on the inside" dimension either. As shown again by its attack on the Waking the Dragons world, we know it consumes the world by physically attacking it and grows as it consumes. We also see the world is encompassed by an ocean of darkness and not some sort of divide that makes it bigger on the inside. (17:40)
Now I'm not claiming that these worlds aren't their own separate timelines / universes / etc. I'm pointing out this is more like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, which is very much an alternative universe in Dragon Ball, but only a planetary feat as you can see on the end of Vegeta's page.

We also already have an example of this within the same show, with Neo Space: Neo-Spacian Aqua Dolphin reveals that Neo Space is one of Jupiter's moons (7:00) and he proceeds to refer to Neo Space as a universe twice as well (21:00). This proves that in GX, there is precedence in universes being refered to small pocket dimensions that exist in the universe.

 

[SomebodyData]

bump

Thanks for the bump but it is staff only with the exception of Zencha.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with this.

 

[Zencha9]

none of this addresses the arguments that were brought up in the last thread and restricting Low 2-C GX discussions is a bad idea since the last thread wasn't repeating what's being said in the last threads, new points were brought up and just shutting it down feels cowardly tbh


the darkness argument falls apart once you know that darkness is small at first and then grows by consuming the universe he doesn't start as a universe and in the same scan you posted he says sekai not uchu
there's also the fact that darkness needs energy to even manifest since spirits can't manifest without duel/spirit energy and it's the reason to why darkness consumes the spirit world way faster than the human world

anyways the neo space and the world of darkness argument are just repeating what happened in the last thread with absolutely nothing new
the world of darkness and neo space are not part of the 12 dimensions the premise of this thread is based on an assumptions that you haven't proved in the last thread or any past thread for almost a decade and your interpretation contradicts the show itself and causes major plot holes and here's some

Contradictions​

1-neo space being a part of the 12 dimensions is contradicted by the fact that it's clearly inside the human universe and a kaiba satellite even goes there and the fact there's space that separates the 12 dimensions contradicts neo space being a part of the 12 dimensions

2- you're assuming random dimensions are part of the 12 dimensions when it wasn't stated nor implied like neo space and the darkness dimension since darkness exists between the boundaries of the 12 dimensions (first 2 scans) there's no reason to call it part of the 12 dimensions since again it doesn't fill the requirements of the 12 dimensions which are 1- being parrallel worlds based on quantum theory 2- being separated by space-time 3-being called straight up universes

and using the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a false equivalency since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is straight up stated to be the same size as earth

as i said in the last thread your interpretation causes alot of contradictions that should be addressed otherwise it's just meaningless to argue any further

 

[Antvasima]

Should I send a notification to several staff members, so they might help out here?

 

[Zencha9]

Should I send a notification to several staff members, so they might help out here?

feel free to do so

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress

What do you think about this?

 

[Zencha9]

also yeah keep in mind that the same argument that was brought up by @SomebodyData in this thread was also addressed in the previous thread
though it did not change the reasoning behind nor outcome of the thread

 

[Crabwhale]

Apologies I don't really know much about GX, or any series past the original.

 

[KingTempest]

Me as well, I'm definitely not qualified enough to evaluate this

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Zencha seems to make sense, but I’m really not that knowledgeable about Yugi-oh, so that’s based pretty much on what is said here

 

[Eficiente]

Following to evaluate.

 

[Antvasima]

@SamanPatou

Would you be willing to help out here as well please?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

none of this addresses the arguments that were brought up in the last thread and restricting Low 2-C GX discussions is a bad idea since the last thread wasn't repeating what's being said in the last threads, new points were brought up and just shutting it down feels cowardly tbh


the darkness argument falls apart once you know that darkness is small at first and then grows by consuming the universe he doesn't start as a universe and in the same scan you posted he says sekai not uchu
there's also the fact that darkness needs energy to even manifest since spirits can't manifest without duel/spirit energy and it's the reason to why darkness consumes the spirit world way faster than the human world

anyways the neo space and the world of darkness argument are just repeating what happened in the last thread with absolutely nothing new
the world of darkness and neo space are not part of the 12 dimensions the premise of this thread is based on an assumptions that you haven't proved in the last thread or any past thread for almost a decade and your interpretation contradicts the show itself and causes major plot holes and here's some

Contradictions​

1-neo space being a part of the 12 dimensions is contradicted by the fact that it's clearly inside the human universe and a kaiba satellite even goes there and the fact there's space that separates the 12 dimensions contradicts neo space being a part of the 12 dimensions

2- you're assuming random dimensions are part of the 12 dimensions when it wasn't stated nor implied like neo space and the darkness dimension since darkness and is exists between the boundaries of the 12 dimensions (first 2 scans) there's no reason to call it part of the 12 dimensions since again it doesn't fill the requirements of the 12 dimensions which are 1- being parrallel worlds based on quantum theory 2- being separated by space-time 3-being called straight up universes

and using the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a false equivalency since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is straight up stated to be the same size as earth

as i said in the last thread your interpretation causes alot of contradictions that should be addressed otherwise it's just meaningless to argue any further

Are the scans you posted correct english translation?.

 

[Zencha9]

Are the scans you posted correct english translation?.

yes they are
from the offical Crunchyroll subs

 

[SomebodyData]

The Darkness Argument

I'm not sure how your reply disproves it? If anything, you just affirmed what I've stated.

"...that darkness is small at first and then grows by consuming the universe..."

By your admission Darkness started small and consumed the dimensions. Well how big was it after it consumed said dimensions? The size of the Earth. And that also counts the additional growth from consuming the evil in the hearts of men.

The Hyperbolic Time Chamber was stated to be the size of Earth, while the World of Darkness (After devouring said universes) was shown to be the size of Earth. That is different yes, but more so in that it is significantly more verifable than the statement by Goku.

Also not sure what contradictions you're talking about. For example, I never stated Neo Space was one of the twelve dimensions in this thread. Just an example of a dimensions being called universe but being moon size.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I actually watched Yugioh GX but it's been a while. Those subtitles aren't made up are they? I'm aware of the infamy of the 12 dimensions not being as large as initially believed but if they are confirmed to be and straight up called universes, I don't see the reason to downgrade it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Wouldn't the size of the universe matter more than being called universe?

 

[Eficiente]

A universe can be smaller than our universe, so yes.

 

[Zencha9]

I'm not sure how your reply disproves it? If anything, you just affirmed what I've stated.

"...that darkness is small at first and then grows by consuming the universe..."

By your admission Darkness started small and consumed the dimensions. Well how big was it after it consumed said dimensions? The size of the Earth. And that also counts the additional growth from consuming the evil in the hearts of men.

no when darkness appears in a dimension he's not the same sized darkness that consumed the previous dimensions otherwise at absolute minimum he'll be multi solar system in size when he appeared in earth
and in the same videos you linked there are no duel spirit monsters in the world of darkness showing that it isn't the same world of darkness that consumed the rest of the 11 dimensions

Also not sure what contradictions you're talking about. For example, I never stated Neo Space was one of the twelve dimensions in this thread. Just an example of a dimensions being called universe but being moon size.

then why bring it up ? when it doesn't fill requirements/explanation that was given regarding the 12 dimensions and the fact that it appears way before the 12 dimensions become an actual thing

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not sure how its a different world of darkness. If you have a scan of Nightshroud saying there is a world of darkness for each universe or something, please present it.

I brought up Neo Space as an example of a universe being the size of one of Titan's moons in GX.

 

[Zencha9]

I'm not sure how its a different world of darkness. If you have a scan of Nightshroud saying there is a world of darkness for each universe or something, please present it.

well that would be the most obvious answer since even lowballing at the absolute minimum he will be multi solar system in size either this or that he's much bigger in the inside

I brought up Neo Space as an example of a universe being the size of one of Titan's moons in GX.

well aqua dolphin said uchu which could mean space which makes it far more consistent

 

[SomebodyData]

well that would be the most obvious answer since even lowballing at the absolute minimum he will be multi solar system in size either this or that he's much bigger in the inside

Pretty sure the absolute lowball or what we're actually shown is a lot lower than multi-solar system. And again, the latter doesn't work when its shown to grow as it consumes.

well aqua dolphin said uchu which could mean space which makes it far more consistent

Uchuu is the word they used for all the other 12 universe statements; so I'm alright with that interpertation.

 

[Zencha9]

Pretty sure the absolute lowball or what we're actually shown is a lot lower than multi-solar system. And again, the latter doesn't work when its shown to grow as it consumes.

explain how it's lower when it's consumed the rest of the dimensions

Uchuu is the word they used for all the other 12 universe statements; so I'm alright with that interpertation.

difference being the context they are also referred to as sekai and i could go down that route and get how every interpretations doesn't make any sense except for the 12 dimensions being universes

 

[Zencha9]

And again, the latter doesn't work when its shown to grow as it consumes

also the latter absolutely works since as i explained above, it requires an insane amount of energy to even manifest

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm kinda repeating myself but I don't how else to say it? The World of Darkness is shown equal to the Earth. That's... how there could be a planet-size rating.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear at this point.

Alright, if you can get a scan where it shows how it goes from Low 2-C to 5-B from mere dimensional travel, I'll give. But that seems hard to believe when the entire series has dimensional travel among even some of the lowest of characters.

 

[Zencha9]

I'm kinda repeating myself but I don't how else to say it? The World of Darkness is shown equal to the Earth. That's... how there could be a planet-size rating.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear at this point.

im saying that doesn't make sense how could he consume some worlds that have alot of starry skies and constellations and just be earth sized

Alright, if you can get a scan where it shows how it goes from Low 2-C to 5-B from mere dimensional travel, I'll give. But that seems hard to believe when the entire series has dimensional travel among even some of the lowest of characters.

that doesn't matter it just means that he only manifested a world that is equal to earth that would make sense since the universe doesn't really give any energy only humans do it would also explain why darkness didn't just consume the main universe before earth

 

[Antvasima]

@The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Zencha9]

anyways i don't see how it's seems hard to believe when 2-C characters don't have the energy to even manifest in the real world

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, if it's shown to be the size of Earth we would still assume it's Earth-sized. Even if it's called a universe, it wouldn't mean we'd give it IRL universe size if that's been contradicted. It also doesn't help they have previously called a moon-sized dimension a universe as well.

Right now I'm in agreement with the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

 

[Zencha9]

Well, if it's shown to be the size of Earth we would still assume it's Earth-sized. Even if it's called a universe, it wouldn't mean we'd give it IRL universe size if that's been contradicted. It also doesn't help they have previously called a moon-sized dimension a universe as well.

Right now I'm in agreement with the OP.

i mean sure you can say that the world of darkness is earth sized that's absolutely fine
the problem is that the OP compares neo space (the moon-sized dimension) with the 12 dimensions
the problem with that is the fact that neo space came way before the the 12 dimensions and the fact that it contradicts what the 12 dimensions are
the 12 dimensions are stated to be parallel worlds that work on quantum theory they are stated to be universe in size and they are stated to be separated by space
neo space contradicts all of that because it's set in the normal universe and a satellite reached neo space which shows it isn't part of the 12 dimensions

 

[Ogbunabali]

OP wasn't comparing Neo Space to the 12 dimensions, from what I could see, they were establishing that there is already a set precedent within the show itself that it calls dimensions/universes small-sized pocket dimensions. Which is a perfectly fine thing to do.

 

[Zencha9]

OP wasn't comparing Neo Space to the 12 dimensions, from what I could see, they were establishing that there is already a set precedent within the show itself that it calls dimensions/universes small-sized pocket dimensions. Which is a perfectly fine thing to do.

i said that uchuu doesn't necessarily mean universe it could mean space it depends on the context
i already told SD that i can prove that the 12 dimensions being universes would be the only interpretation that makes sense

 

[Zencha9]

and neo space was the only time a dimension of that size was ever referred to as uchu

 

[Zencha9]

and like i said before it was only once was neo space was referred to as uchu in the entire show and that was before the 12 dimensions rules existed
and don't get me started on aqua dolphin referring to the imaginary space the place that is in jaden's mind as neo universe as shown here

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Forgive me since I could not verify some of your links in the OP (Crunchyroll apparently has 6 midroll ads at a time, ******' hell). With that said, I will say that I don't think SD contradicts as many things as Zencha mentions. I think Ogbunabali also makes sense- SD isn't arguing neo space is one of these "12 dimensions", it was showing that "universe" doesn't really mean "universe" always in the context of the show.

Can someone inform me on what "uchu" means? I'm afraid I don't grasp this bit, I suspect it has something to do with Japanese?

 

[SomebodyData]

im saying that doesn't make sense how could he consume some worlds that have alot of starry skies and constellations and just be earth sized

Well again, there is precedence in universes in GX having see-through dimensional barriers. Look at Neo Space where Jupiter is in the background.

that doesn't matter it just means that he only manifested a world that is equal to earth that would make sense since the universe doesn't really give any energy only humans do it would also explain why darkness didn't just consume the main universe before earth

This seeks speculative at best, ignoring the bizzareness in him shrinking himself to 5-B level? I also don't think it was ever stated the world of darkness could shrink. Only grow.

 

[SomebodyData]

Bambu

Uchu means universe or space.

Zencha's argument that it really meant space though doesn't make much sense, considering they translated Neo Space accurately in the same sentence. And that they also used uchu for the 12 dimensions too, so ironically it'd still downgrade them.

 

[Zencha9]

Forgive me since I could not verify some of your links in the OP (Crunchyroll apparently has 6 midroll ads at a time, ******' hell). With that said, I will say that I don't think SD contradicts as many things as Zencha mentions. I think Ogbunabali also makes sense- SD isn't arguing neo space is one of these "12 dimensions", it was showing that "universe" doesn't really mean "universe" always in the context of the show.

Can someone inform me on what "uchu" means? I'm afraid I don't grasp this bit, I suspect it has something to do with Japanese?

uchuu means (universe/space) but it depends on the context in japanese
the problem is the fact that SD is presenting that as an issue the verse has that it usually refers to small pocket dimensions as universe when it only happened once and before the rules for alternate dimensions were explained in the show

and he is ignoring the context of the aqua dolphin scene since it wasn't referring to the actual neo space as shown in the video he posted
and i would also quote what someone said regarding aqua dolphin's statement

I just checked here on crunchyroll, but at this point it might just be flowery language, it would be for example Zod telling Superman "the Earthly universe with the Kryptonian universe".

I wanted to know something related to Yubel's statement, not something that can be flowery language between Judai and the Aqua Dolphin, which is what I will argue next;

Here is episode 62 on Raw, and what Aqua-Dolphin says to Judai is this:

そう だ よ 重大 君 の 自由 な 心 が 生み出し た カード が 君 たち の 宇宙 と 我々 の 宇宙 ネオ 宇宙
That's right, Judai. Your unfettered heart has created those card that is a link between your universe and our universe, the Neo-Universe.

Here what Neo Aqua is talking about doesn't even refer to the planet where they crashed with Kaiba's capsule, but rather the imaginary universe that the child > > Judai longed for when he was just a child watching people duel, and which gave him the motivations to create the neos universe. In this way, when the cards > > > became alive, the link between Judai's heart and that imaginary universe he longed for was created between him and the new spirits. That is just a flowery passage.
Of course that's not all that changes, the kanji used in that sentence is 宇宙 where the etymology is very manageable according to the context, it can be used in outer space even universe in its actual size, but it was not the universe in its actual size, but only the relationship between the Judai and the cards. So regardless of whether it's Neo-Space, or Neo-Universe he mentioned it's going to have a single meaning and totally different from Yubel's Statements.