Yu-Gi-Oh! GX and 2-C: The Last of Many.

[Zencha9]

as it seems that everyone is confused by what's happening i'll try to make a summary of the points being brought up in this thread by SD


1-SD claims that the world of darkness being only the size of earth disqualifies the 12 dimensions from being universes since he consumed the rest of the 11 dimensions and was going to absorb the 12th which is the human world/universe

• my counter to that would be that the human world requires far more energy to even manifest in unlike the 11 dimensions which are made up of said energy and it's the reason why he absorbed the 11 dimensions far more quickly than the human dimension

2-his 2nd point is claiming that the 12 dimensions could be similar to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber

• but that is false equivalency since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is straight up stated to be the same size as earth and the 12 dimensions are stated to be universes multiple times that are based on quantum theory and have moons, stars and constellation etc

3-his 3rd point is about how neo space is being called a universe thus in GX, there is precedence in universes being refered to small pocket dimensions that exist in the universe.

• but that is wrong on so many levels since it is only 1 statement that appears way before the 12 dimensions even existed as a concept and he's saying that entirety of the show uses that based on 1 scans but that is one of many problems in this point because the 12 dimensions are stated to be separated and not in the same universe as SD says , and there's the fact the aqua dolphin says that jaden's heart connected the neo space to his universe and then it shows the background of what supposedly is neo space. the problem with that is that this isn't the neo space that orbits jupiter it's an entirely different space compared to the one orbiting jupiter and jaden didn't connect neo space to the main universe since neo space existed in the universe beforehand, what aqua dolphin is referring to is that the imaginary neo space is now linked to his universe (his mind) and can now communicate with them and are now connected as shown when aqua dolphin first states that and way later in the series

 

[Zencha9]

Neither of you are using single statements and neither of you are making arguments as weak as the other is trying to portray it as. From where I sit, both of you have reasonably compelling arguments- which is a problem, since it means the verse is somewhat inconsistent in its phrasing and portrayal of shit. Which, in my book, means I go with the lesser option- better to underestimate than overestimate, imo, though this largely comes down to personal opinion.

the problem with his argument is that it contrdicts the show and is based on 1 statement mine isn't

 

[Antvasima]

Neither of you are using single statements and neither of you are making arguments as weak as the other is trying to portray it as. From where I sit, both of you have reasonably compelling arguments- which is a problem, since it means the verse is somewhat inconsistent in its phrasing and portrayal of shit. Which, in my book, means I go with the lesser option- better to underestimate than overestimate, imo, though this largely comes down to personal opinion.

Thank you for helping out. Should we use "At least ..., possibly ..." as a compromise solution then?

 

[Zencha9]

Thank you for helping out. Should we use "At least ..., possibly ..." as a compromise solution then?

wow we really gonna ingore how many contradictions SD's interpretation makes in the verse and just go with compromise? i think you're really rushing things

 

[Mr. Bambu]

the problem with his argument is that it contrdicts the show and is based on 1 statement mine isn't

The whole thing is contradictory. That's what I said. It is literally what my vote is based on.

 

[Zencha9]

The whole thing is contradictory. That's what I said. It is literally what my vote is based on.

it's literally not
like i already explained how the aqua dolphin statement regarding neo space doesn't refer to the actual neo space that is orbiting hupiter and no one even bothered SD just dismissed the argument entirely

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And SD explained the contrary. And I explained how I felt both of you seemed to offer fairly decent explanations. Look at that. We're all already explaining ourselves. What a world.

 

[Zencha9]

no ? he did not even address my point

 

[Zencha9]

This imaginary space doesn't exist, there isnt an imaginary realm or anything like that.

that's literally his counter argument no scans nothing just dismissed it entirely

 

[AKM sama]

As I see it, being called "universe" is taken as being universe-sized by default. However, this may vary in case of pocket dimensions (which are not normal universes) and such depending on context. SD brings up a point that the show also called a moon-sized dimension a universe too. There is also a scan where Earth is being referred to as a universe, and the world that is supposed to be its shadow is also Earth-sized. These two examples at least establish that the series is lax with the term, and we need to dive deeper to investigate whether those 12 dimensions are also similar cases or actually universe-sized.

SD also brings up the point of World of Darkness being Earth-sized after consuming 11 dimensions. I have a question here. Is it evidenced that this World of Darkness grows to the size of what it consumes? Could be a case where it doesn't grow to the same proportion?

Zencha brings up a point that we can see stars and stuff in those dimensions. To which SD claims that the World of Darkness (that is supposed to mirror the universe/Earth) and Neo's universe, both these dimensions had transparent dimensional barriers that allowed people inside them to view the outside, which should work as a precedent, which Zencha doesn't agree with. My question here is whether there exists some more information about these dimensional barriers that we can use here?

I only saw these points as relevant to ascertain the size. If I am missing something else, do point it out.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out AKM.

 

[Zencha9]

As I see it, being called "universe" is taken as being universe-sized by default. However, this may vary in case of pocket dimensions and such depending on context. SD brings up a point that the show also called a moon-sized dimension a universe too. There is also a scan where Earth is being referred to as a universe, and the world that is supposed to be its shadow is also Earth-sized. These two examples at least establish that the series is lax with the term, and we need to dive deeper to investigate whether those 12 dimensions are also similar cases or actually universe-sized.

yes in these scans aqua dolphin says that jaden's heart connects neo space into his universe my problem with that is the fact that neo space already exists in the universe before and when aqua dolphin is talking about neo space the background doesn't show the same neo space that orbits jupiter
aqua dolphin is talking about how neo space (the imaginary space not the one that orbits jupiter) is now connected to jaden's heart and he can now communicate with them as shown later with the same background

SD also brings up the point of World of Darkness being Earth-sized after consuming 11 dimensions. I have a question here. Is it evidenced that this World of Darkness grows to the size of what it consumes? Could be a case where it doesn't grow to the same proportion?

im not sure since the darkness does cover everything but im not sure if it becomes one with the world of darkness since they have different colors iirc
my points against that was needing a big amount of energy to manifest in the normal universe cuz the 11 dimsions are made up of spirit/duel energy so darkness can appear there just fine and consume everything unlike the human universe

Zencha brings up a point that we can see stars and stuff in those dimensions. To which SD claims that the World of Darkness (that is supposed to mirror the universe/Earth) and Neo's universe, both these dimensions had transparent dimensional barriers that allowed people inside them to view the outside, which should work as a precedent, which Zencha doesn't agree with. My question here is whether there exists some more information about these dimensional barriers that we can use here?

i brought up the fact that it said sekai which would mean world which makes sense, there's a dimensional barriers that is around the academy (island) and everyone can go in and out of there and they don't consider the academy as a dimension or anything simillar and a normal satellite reached neo space that's why i think the dimensional barriers aren't important and aren't important

 

[AKM sama]

the background doesn't show the same neo space that orbits jupiter

In the scans you posted, I see that the background is the same. There is just one where planet Jupiter is shown, but you can still see the background behind it in the top-right corner and it looks the same as other scenes you linked. So this could just be perspective and angles. Unless I am seeing something else entirely or you didn't link the right scan.

i brought up the fact that it said sekai which would mean world which makes sense, there's a dimensional barriers that is around the academy (island) and everyone can go in and out of there and they don't consider the academy as a dimension or anything simillar and a normal satellite reached neo space that's why i think the dimensional barriers aren't important and aren't important

Sekai doesn't have a fixed definition and it can mean anything, either a planet, or a universe, or something else. A dimension also qualifies and can be called a sekai, but it doesn't prove its size. We have to go by other information.
Well, obviously not everything enclosed by a barrier can automatically become a universe (talking about the island).

More importantly, if the Neo space has a see-through barrier, is inside the universe, and yet it is called a universe, wouldn't this strengthen SD's interpretation that the 12 dimensions can function in the same way? In that they can have the same type of see-through barriers that make the stars visible? It was also pointed out the World of Darkness has a see-through barrier too.

Also, after consuming 11 "universes" the goal of the WoD was to also consume the human "universe" right? And when in that scan, only planet Earth is being referred to as "universe", wouldn't it also strengthen SD's interpretation that the other "universes" that were consumed would also be comparable to Earth and not actual universe? They should have represented multiple galaxies if they meant the actual universe, no?

 

[Zencha9]

In the scans you posted, I see that the background is the same. There is just one where planet Jupiter is shown, but you can still see the background behind it in the top-right corner and it looks the same as other scenes you linked. So this could just be perspective and angles. Unless I am seeing something else entirely or you didn't link the right scan.

yeah it does show the same background kinda but it doesn't have io or jupiter
and like jaden literally says the same thing when he summons aqua dolphin so it's straight up not referring to the neo space itself and aqua dolphin says the jaden will save the universe not the universes implying neo space isn't treated as a universe

Sekai doesn't have a fixed definition and it can mean anything, either a planet, or a universe, or something else. A dimension also qualifies and can be called a sekai, but it doesn't prove its size. We have to go by other information.

they are stated to be universes 2, times (uchu) and are stated to work on quantum theory and were stated to be space times in the duel monster series im pretty sure that qualifies

More importantly, if the Neo space has a see-through barrier, is inside the universe, and yet it is called a universe, wouldn't this strengthen SD's interpretation that the 12 dimensions can function in the same way? In that they can have the same type of see-through barriers that make the stars visible? It was also pointed out the World of Darkness has a see-through barrier too.

no it wouldn't becuase neo spaciaians and neo space was created by the gentle darkness and it's influence is only limited to half of a human universes he doesn't exist in other alt universes , and now that i think about it i don't remember when it was said that neo space&the world of darkness have a barriers

Also, after consuming 11 "universes" the goal of the WoD was to also consume the human "universe" right? And when in that scan, only planet Earth is being referred to as "universe", wouldn't it also strengthen SD's interpretation that the other "universes" that were consumed would also be comparable to Earth and not actual universe? They should have represented multiple galaxies if they meant the actual universe, no?

yeah but that was him saying sekai not uchu during his stay on earth he was being empowered by the darkness of the humans on the planet so it makes sense for sekai to refer to earth not the universe as a whole keep in mind that he's absorbed almost every human on the planet and didn't grow bigger and after checking the episodes he can also erase beings and cards inside his world

 

[Ogbunabali]

@AKM sama @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? The discussion seems to go around in circles.

My original comment still stands. Nothing new has been brought up from what I could see, just the same points being worded differently.

 

[Zencha9]

well we are discussing the legitimacy of said qoute and i clarified how this scan says sekai which means world and it explains how it's compared to earth not the universe
and how aqua dolphin's statement is flowery because neo space already exists in the universe before jaden even goes there so there's nothing to connect it just means that his mind is connected to the imaginary neo space not the one that orbits jupiter he also says the same thing when he summons, aqua dolphin
hope this changes your mind a bit @Ogbunabali

 

[Zencha9]

so i just noticed that when neo universe (uchu) is said in the show it's said in japanese so they're literally saying neo space but in japanese since uchu can mean both universe and space

 

[SomebodyData]

that's literally his counter argument no scans nothing just dismissed it entirely

You haven't provided any scans of an imaginary universe. You haven't posted any scans stating that the World of Darkness dimension shrinks from 2-C to 5-B in the main universe. Etc, etc.

I can't rebuke something that doesn't exist. It's a double negative.

My 'interpertation' still acknowledges these dimensions are universes by GX's logic- they have their own space time and are shut off from the regular universe- the issue they aren't what we would consider Low 2-C or 2-C feats because they are physically the size of 5-C to 5-B at best.

Also going to emphasize for the staff that the World of Darkness dimension that is the exact same size as Earth after it consumed said 11 other universes beforehand- ie this is the combined size of all those universes + its natural ability to grow + becoming larger thanks to the darkness in the hearts of humans.

 

[Zencha9]

You haven't provided any scans of an imaginary universe. You haven't posted any scans stating that the World of Darkness dimension shrinks from 2-C to 5-B in the main universe. Etc, etc.

it doesn't matter anymore since aqua dolphin is just saying neo space uchu (space) but in japanese instead of saying neo space in english and these scan speak for themselfs i really doubt i would need to explain any further for why that isn't literal
i don't need to since that's the laws of the yugioh universe you're really gonna tell me that every spirit can exist in earth just fine without an insane amount of energy ? i already told you how the main universe doesn't have any energy except for the humans on earth which explains the world of darkness's size and there's also the fact thet darkness can erase beings and cards inside his world so it doesn't really matter

My 'interpertation' still acknowledges these dimensions are universes by GX's logic- they have their own space time and are shut off from the regular universe- the issue they aren't what we would consider Low 2-C or 2-C feats because they are physically the size of 5-C to 5-B at best.

no they aren't i showed above how they have starry skies and all of that

 

[Zencha9]

so in conclusion long story short crunchyroll's yugioh translations sucks since every scan SD and i brought up are mistranslated in a way

so let's begin with the first scan we went over this in the debate but darkness doesn't say uchu which means either universe or space he said sekai which means world
here's a scan that is better translated

next would be the neo universe claim saying that they call neo space a universe but anyone who knows a bit of japanese knows that they are saying neo uchu which literally translates to neo space but in japanese since they say neo space in english most of the time i assume the translation team choose neo universe because it would be rather confusing to translate like these scans

aqua solphin says in the last scan " neo space, neo uchu" clarifing that neo space is neo uchu (space) but in japanese
so it would be confusing to translate it as "neo space, neo space" even though it means the same thing
so yeah that's pretty much it if you don't really trust me even though it's really basic words then i can always go to the translations request thread

 

[SomebodyData]

it doesn't matter anymore since aqua dolphin is just saying neo space uchu (space) but in japanese instead of saying neo space in english and these scan speak for themselfs i really doubt i would need to explain any further for why that isn't literal
i don't need to since that's the laws of the yugioh universe you're really gonna tell me that every spirit can exist in earth just fine without an insane amount of energy ? i already told you how the main universe doesn't have any energy except for the humans on earth which explains the world of darkness's size and there's also the fact thet darkness can erase beings and cards inside his world so it doesn't really matter

Again, no scans present for the yugioh universe not having energy outside of humanity. Nor any scan about being a spirit requiring energy on Earth.

no they aren't i showed above how they have starry skies and all of that

And again, I pointed out that the universes' divides are transparent. There is no telling if that's not just some part of our universe.

As for the translation argument, do I really have to explain why 'Neo Space, Neo Space' being your conclusion for what Aqua Dolphin states is nonsensical?

Also, better translation? Sure, let's assume that even thoygh you haven't even explained where you got this. You do realize that translation literally states the world of darkness mirrors the Earth?

 

[Zencha9]

Again, no scans present for the yugioh universe not having energy outside of humanity. Nor any scan about being a spirit requiring energy on Earth.

purden of proof is on you nothing in the entire series states that the universe can produce duel energy just that they take it from humanity zorc orichalcos god ener-d etc, misawa literally states that the reason the monster were physical was because of the massive energy being around

And again, I pointed out that the universes' divides are transparent. There is no telling if that's not just some part of our universe.

what universes divides ?

As for the translation argument, do I really have to explain why 'Neo Space, Neo Space' being your conclusion for what Aqua Dolphin states is nonsensical?

yes he literally states it (neo space) in english and clarifies it in japanese

Also, better translation? Sure, let's assume that even thoygh you haven't even explained where you got this. You do realize that translation literally states the world of darkness mirrors the Earth?

did i say otherwise ? pretty sure during this whole thread ive said that darkness mirrors earth

 

[Antvasima]

What do other staff members here think? Should I send notifications again?

 

[Zencha9]

What do other staff members here think? Should I send notifications again?

no. because right now the context of the scans is being debated you would just call them mid debate (between me and SD) so im not sure what would they even respond to

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[SomebodyData]

purden of proof is on you nothing in the entire series states that the universe can produce duel energy just that they take it from humanity zorc orichalcos god ener-d etc, misawa literally states that the reason the monster were physical was because of the massive energy being around

That's not how burden of proof works. You're asserting a statement (The World of Darkness is 2-C but shrinks to 5-B; only humanity has energy in the cosmology) now you have to prove it.

what universes divides ?

The point at which space and the 11 dimensions are separated, thus not the same space. To oversimplify it, the 'shell' of these dimensions.

yes he literally states it (neo space) in english and clarifies it in japanese

And immediately afterwards calls it a universe, yeah

did i say otherwise ? pretty sure during this whole thread ive said that darkness mirrors earth

Well I assumed your position wouldn't be that. Since its the conclusion that leads to the downgrade.

 

[SomebodyData]

What do other staff members here think? Should I send notifications again?

I think I've laid down my reasoning why physically tier 5 universes shouldn't be tier 2 and Zencha has on why the feats should still be tier 2. The staff should be able to follow the general idea.

Although, the Universe CRT would probably decide this thread's conclusion now.
If the revisions go through, Zencha's upgrades would stay. So I wouldn't send notifications unless the other thread is postponed.

 

[Zencha9]

That's not how burden of proof works. You're asserting a statement (The World of Darkness is 2-C but shrinks to 5-B; only humanity has energy in the cosmology) now you have to prove it.

again he's only getting energy from earth that's my reasoning for why he's earth sized and he can erase stuff inside his his world of darkness so it doesn't matter

The point at which space and the 11 dimensions are separated, thus not the same space. To oversimplify it, the 'shell' of these dimensions.

where did you get this from ? and how are they transparent ?

And immediately afterwards calls it a universe, yeah

yeah after saying in english he pasues and clarifies it (says uchu) in japanese that's my whole point

Well I assumed your position wouldn't be that. Since its the conclusion that leads to the downgrade.

not really ive been regularly saying that WoD is not earth sized i even said that it's different WoD since their backstories are different

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

will reply later

 

[Zencha9]

also why would we assume that he says neo universe when he clarifies that he means neo space nevermind the fact that he's referring to the same place and said place's name is literally "neo space" in english

 

[Antvasima]

I think I've laid down my reasoning why physically tier 5 universes shouldn't be tier 2 and Zencha has on why the feats should still be tier 2. The staff should be able to follow the general idea.

Although, the Universe CRT would probably decide this thread's conclusion now.
If the revisions go through, Zencha's upgrades would stay. So I wouldn't send notifications unless the other thread is postponed.

Is there another Yu-Gi-Oh upgrade thread running concurrently with this that covers the same points? That seems inappropriate in that case.

Usually it would be best if you provide a summary of the discussion so far after which I ask for help from some staff members in any case.

 

[Zencha9]

covering the same points ?
no not that i know of

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I likely misunderstood then.

 

[SomebodyData]

Antvasima

I was talking about the Universe Level CRT for staff.

Zencha

again he's only getting energy from earth that's my reasoning for why he's earth sized and he can erase stuff inside his his world of darkness so it doesn't matter

That's counterintuitive to your point- even if he's only getting amped by humanity the fact that he's getting amped at all and still only equal to the Earth in size breaks the idea that this universe consumed 11 low 2-C universes.

where did you get this from ? and how are they transparent ?

I've repeated this several times by now. Jupiter is seeable from Neo Space, the Earth is seeable from the World of Darkness.

yeah after saying in english he pasues and clarifies it (says uchu) in japanese that's my whole point

You do know his clarification is "universe", after previously calling it space. Also, since they're both "uchu" that would mean the translation took context into account to be translated to two different things in the same sentence, rather than just being repeated.

not really ive been regularly saying that WoD is not earth sized i even said that it's different WoD since their backstories are different

Okay, well the WoD I'm talking about is the one that's 5-B and consumed the 11 dimensions; so as long as we can agree on that, then the thread is concluded.

 

[Zencha9]

That's counterintuitive to your point- even if he's only getting amped by humanity the fact that he's getting amped at all and still only equal to the Earth in size breaks the idea that this universe consumed 11 low 2-C universes.

that doesn't matter since like i said that darkness can temporarily erase stuff in his world that and he can make duel spirits into cards (like the ojamas) he should be able to turn the worlds into cards since that's what they originally were , like this isn't an argument at this point

I've repeated this several times by now. Jupiter is seeable from Neo Space, the Earth is seeable from the World of Darkness.

yes to neo space no to world of darkness you can't normally see earth from the world of darkness since it's pretty deep and neo space isn't even a a separate dimension since a ******* satellite goes there meanwhile they need a whole in space to even try to enter the 12 dimensions

You do know his clarification is "universe", after previously calling it space. Also, since they're both "uchu" that would mean the translation took context into account to be translated to two different things in the same sentence, rather than just being repeated.

yes i know which is why i said it should be neo space since it's the same sentence translated differently and both mean the same thing "neo space"

 

[SomebodyData]

that doesn't matter since like i said that darkness can temporarily erase stuff in his world that and he can make duel spirits into cards (like the ojamas) he should be able to turn the worlds into cards since that's what they originally were , like this isn't an argument at this point

Complete lies. At no point is it shown he consumes the universes by turning them into cards.

We literally see it's consumed by the world of darkness growing and consuming them.

yes to neo space no to world of darkness you can't normally see earth from the world of darkness since it's pretty deep and neo space isn't even a a separate dimension since a ******* satellite goes there meanwhile they need a whole in space to even try to enter the 12 dimensions

Images Snip

Bizarre how in the previous thread, you provided scans of lasers physically entering the dimensions and reaching the duel academy while having all the universes appear on a radar. It also seems you forgot that Neo Space can teleport objects / people into its universe, as shown with Jaden in the same episode, so the satellite entering isn't conflicting.

yes i know which is why i said it should be neo space since it's the same sentence translated differently and both mean the same thing "neo space"

So you're standing on the hill that they say "Neo Space the Neo Space." instead of "Neo Space the Neo Universe" as the translators determined?

Also, I'm confirming once again if you agree that the World of Darkness is 5-B when it invades Earth. If you do, you understand this thread is finished right?

 

[Zencha9]

Complete lies. At no point is it shown he consumes the universes by turning them into cards.

We literally see it's consumed by the world of darkness growing and consuming them.

so you're still dodging darkness being able to erase stuff neat
except that's not what i said i didn't say the worlds would turn into cards the moment they touch the world of darkness i just said that dakness has shown that he is able to turn duel spirits and regular people into cards so he should be able to turn the worlds inside him into cards since that is what they originally were

Bizarre how in the previous thread, you provided scans of lasers physically entering the dimensions and reaching the duel academy while having all the universes appear on a radar. It also seems you forgot that Neo Space can teleport objects / people into its universe, as shown with Jaden in the same episode, so the satellite entering isn't conflicting.

bizarre how you forgot the fact that there's a space that separates the 12 dimensions and the fact that neo space contrdicts the radar since it exists inside the main universe when the radar shows how every dimension is divided
also using that as point is dumb because neo spacicans (the deck) are what was inside the kaiba corp satellite to begin with and the reason to why they and neo space even exist is because of the waves of the gentle darkness made them real

So you're standing on the hill that they say "Neo Space the Neo Space." instead of "Neo Space the Neo Universe" as the translators determined?

Also, I'm confirming once again if you agree that the World of Darkness is 5-B when it invades Earth. If you do, you understand this thread is finished right?

yes because they use neo space and neo uchu interchangeably (ep62 17:02) which is what led me to beileve that, but don't take my word for it im asking a translator about it
which is what makes me believe that there is not just a single darkness since the world of darkness in the human world mirrors the world (being a planet or a universe doesn't matter to this)
meanwhile the one in the spirit world exists in the space between the dimensions which contradicts what darkness says

 

[Antvasima]

What is the consensus here so far?

 

[Zencha9]

What is the consensus here so far?

there have been none so far since im questioning the translation at the moment and the context behind them since from what i see there some issues about the context like the characters in the show never really refer to neo space as a universe sized or anything like that they just say neo uchu (which could mean space or universe in japanese) which brings up some issues since the place's name is neo space in english and since they never really talk about to the size of tha place they just call it by it's name (sometimes they say neo space in english and sometimes they say neo uchu) and use them interchangeably (ep62 17:02)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.