Yu-Gi-Oh! GX and 2-C: The Last of Many.

[SomebodyData]

@Antvasima

I've already posted my summary (I'll also be adding Zencha's subspace statement), but Zencha will have to summarize his own points.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And Zencha accidentally further concluding this:
"btw i found in the summary of ep 62 that they call neo space a sub-space ( scan , source )
translation
clarification"

Subspace meaning another space-time in fiction.

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

I've already posted my summary (I'll also be adding Zencha's subspace statement), but Zencha will have to summarize his own points.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And Zencha accidentally further concluding this:
"btw i found in the summary of ep 62 that they call neo space a sub-space ( scan , source )
translation
clarification"

Subspace meaning another space-time in fiction.

@Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

We have problems ever finishing here and are going in circles. Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Zencha9]

You literally just moments ago argued it completely debunked my argument- and now that I point out it proves it you just want to discard your own point?

no, because the general meaning of sub-space is another space within a space and if you want to claim that it means the sub-space that is generally used in science fiction aka space-time that is used often is usedcommunication at speed faster than light then you need proof of that

Well I'm pretty sure I mentioned I just think they're either around tier 5, based on how Neo Space is stated to be the size of a moon.

EDIT: Checked OP, yeah, I mentioned that

ignoring ths stars and constellation for some reason
that still would put the world of darkness way bigger than the planet how do you fix that ? your interpretation contradicts what's been shown

You're probably right, but it'd still be adding the mass/size to the World of Darkness with this method. It wouldn't be like, for example, Hakai from Dragon Ball.

what, i just explained how you get physically and mentally erased once you become one with darkness what are you talking about

 

[Jeune_fou]

I'd like to point out something. "uchuu" can be translated "universe" indeed ... but when they talk about "neo space" it isn't translated "universe" but "space".

Spoiler: screenshots that show neo space being treated as "space" instead of "universe"

I do not know which source you're using but the translation employed for the source you used is incorrect. Listen carefully to episode 62 and you may hear "uchuu" (but always used alone in a sentence and never near "neo") but the moment they say "neos universe" in your screenshot is a translation error because I swear they NEVER (except once) pronounced the words "neo" ("ネオ" in japanese) and "uchuu" ("宇宙" in japanese) consecutively, and this apply to episode 62 but also to ALL of season 2. Therefore it was a liberty taken by the translator from your source. The correct translation here is "space" (one of the other ways you can translate "uchuu") which is the correct way to refer to neo space because when neo space is written in japanese they use "ネオスペース" ("ネオ" (neo) and "スペース" which are the katakanas (the syllabary used in Japan to transcript foreign-language words) used to transcript "space" (it's pronounced "supēsu"). Which shows a clear will to limit Neo speace to ... a small space, otherwise if they wanted it to be an universe they'd use "ユニバース" ("Yunibāsu" so the katakanas to transcript "universe" in japanese based on the english word "universe").

Keep in mind the words "neo" and "universe" are NEVER used consecutively (except once) while "neo" and "space" always are. Also I think it makes no sense for neo space to be treated as an universe while it's already inside the human universe.
Finally, I think we should just completely stop using neo space in discussions about ygo's cosmology since neo space is totally irrelevant due to the fact:

1) it's not a duel monster spirit dimension: the japanese words related to dimensions are NEVER used in season 2. While there are countless instances those words are used during season 3 and 4. Once again showing a clear will from creators to make a distinction between neo space and duel monster dimensions. So it can't even be compared to them.

2) Unlike duel monster spirit dimensions, neo space is contained in the human universe (since Kaiba corp sent a space probe that reached this space on Io while we have 0 instance the same was done or can be done with other dimensions since they're spatially not even in the same domain as the human universe).

3) Neo space is like 10 years old (at most) or something because Elemental Hero Neos and the neo-spacians are monsters created by Judai so it doesn't even work like duel monster spirit dimensions. So since it's nature works totally differently we should stop using it: it's really a special case.



Also your vision of dimensions being tier 5 large universes makes no sense because it contradicts the definition of an universe used by Dr Zweinstein. Indeed, Zweinstein considers an universe is like our universe, that is to say an enormous space with countless of planets and stars (proven when he plays his field spell card Relativity Field, since the hologram of a whole universe appears (and Misawa Daichi confirms this is the type of universe he talked about).

Spoiler: the hologram shows the vision Zweinstein has of an universe

Also in addition to that, Dr Zweinstein states (as he lectures Judai about how universes work) there are several universes and that EACH of them contains multiple worlds (which couldn't be possible with tier 5 large universes).

Spoiler: pics about Dr Zweinstein lecturing Judai can be consulted here:

Zweinstein is also regarded as the best specialist in his domain of research and acts as if the multiple universe things was factual (and due to his logical brain he wouldn't dare to explain how universes work if that was still just a theory).

Spoiler: Pics where Zweinstein is regarded as an exceptional person within the scientific community

Also even if you somewhat still doubt that, when he and Misawa Daichi conducted research about it. Misawa Daichi was transported to the desert dimension which shows the 12 dimensions are the famous "universes that contain multiple worlds" mentioned by Zweinstein. And let's not forget each dimensions has several stars and constellations (which confirms Zweinstein's words).

Spoiler: research about the 12 dimensions

Even if I understand where you're going with the Darkness thing I think the reason it's showed to be like the Earth in size can explained by the following reasons:

1) Artistic reasons (to be a sort of dark reflect of the Earth) that contradicts what was stated/showed previously (it wouldn't be the first anime to do something like that)

2) PIS, outlier, inconsistency etc ... which once again wouldn't be the first time it happened in a fictional verse. Random example: tournament of power Frieza bragging about his attack that can destroy a planet while most of character and himself are 3-A or low 2-C at this point.



Also the Dr's Radar can identify 11 forms as he compared the human universe (exact center of the radar) and the 11 other dimensions. In addition to that, Yubel states the 12 dimensions are universes ... at least twice.

Spoiler: radar + Yubel statement

Anyway I think we should now wait for people to react and give us their opinion about that like Ant suggested.

 

[Zencha9]

We have problems ever finishing here and are going in circles. Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

could you give me a sec to post my summary because you're rushing this cuz his interpretation still doesn't make much sense (like saying how the dimensions are moon sized even though that would make the world of darkness way bigger than the human world which doesn't make sense as shown by the visuals)
and i'll explain that in my summary just give me a moment to breathe ant

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but it seems like our staff are uninterested in this.

 

[Zencha9]

the 12 dimensions​

what are the 12 dimensions ?
basically they are parallel dimensions which are based on quantom theory

now that that's cleared up let's start with size:
1-as shown the 12 dimensions are stated to be universal in size 3 times

Spoiler: translation

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と
i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

2- desert dimensions has stars and moons inside it
(the dimension has no name so i call it the desert dimensions)

3- the dark world dimensions has constellations inside it

inconsistencies/stuff that doesn't make sense​

1-neo space is inside the human world and is on Io a moon that orbits jupiter and is obviously isn't a part of the 12 dimensions since it has never been called a part of the 12 dimensions and it was never even called a dimension in general

2-neo space has never been called a dimensions it's always been called "neo supēsu"(meaning neo space in english) it's been called "neo uchu" twice (uchu meaning either space or universe) and it's been called a sub-space once, and it's pretty obvious how ridiculous it is to say that io is a universal space-time instead of just a normal space inside another space
i.e a location within another space

3-the size of the world of darkness:
we all know how darkness absorbed the 12 dimensions but is still planet level in size

the problem with this is that @SomebodyData 's interpretation still doesn't make sense since he's not only ingoring the stars and constellations, his interpretation of the 12 dimensions being moon sized would still make the world of darkness way smaller than the planet which isn't the case since they are stated and shown to be equal

​

the solution to the world of darkness size problem​

since both my and @SomebodyData 's interpretation would still make the world of darkness bigger than earth here's the solution

it's fairly simple since it's explained in the show how inside the world of darkness is a place where physical form is not needed and how it's void that will make people live for all eternity
and how once you lose your individuality you'll fully become one with darkness and you will get erased from existence

 

[Jeune_fou]

What Zencha said is backed up by the fact gx ep 62 makes a clear distinction between the rest of the universe and neo space since at 17 min 03 Judai says "The door that links this universe and neo space is opened" before he summons Neos. Also it's backed up by Zweinstein

Really hope it'll end the discussion once and for all about gx's cosmology

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll state this one last time, although at this point, not addressing it would only benefit me.

I'm not arguing they are not universes. I'm merely pointing out they are 5-B sized universes. All your points in these recent summaries just prove they are universes- which again- I agree with.

You can edit your summaries to discuss that or leave them as is, however, if you choose the latter I need to note most of the staff that have already this thread have acknowledged this even if they don't agree with me or have changed their mind. So the summaries wouldn't address the issue they had.

 

[Zencha9]

again my post goes around how them being 5-B universes also doesn't make sense in the story

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll let you decide what you want with your summaries, but again, just pointing out something that could only benefit you.

Especially since the current rebuttal of their size using the stars and moon of the dark world and desert dimension have already been accepted by other admins with the pointing out of the fact that you can see the rest of the main universe from Neo Space and the World of Darkness, so it isn't necessarily part of those two dimensions you brought up.

Also your final summary is #207 correct? I'll quote it alongside mine to make it more visible for the admins.

 

[SomebodyData]

Final summaries of Zencha's & my points:


@Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress

I apologize for calling you all out here, but here the next two posts are the final summaries to end the thread at last:

 

[SomebodyData]

@Antvasima

I've already posted my summary (I'll also be adding Zencha's subspace statement), but Zencha will have to summarize his own points.

The World of Darkness consumed/absorbed the 12 duel-spirit dimensions and grew accordingly:

The World of Darkness however is only 5-B afterwards, also shown after it makes an eclipse in their last duel:

With another universe in the series at best being the size of a moon:

And Zencha accidentally further concluding this:
"btw i found in the summary of ep 62 that they call neo space a sub-space ( scan , source )
translation
clarification"

Subspace meaning another space-time in fiction.

Finally, it should be noted that in both cases as shown above you could see the main universe from these dimensions. Hence the scans showing the multiple stars / moons in the desert dimension as well as the stars in the dark world aren't proof of anything. They can quite literally just be from our universe and the characters seeing them from that dimension.

 

[SomebodyData]

the 12 dimensions​

what are the 12 dimensions ?
basically they are parallel dimensions which are based on quantom theory

now that that's cleared up let's start with size:
1-as shown the 12 dimensions are stated to be universal in size 3 times

2- desert dimensions has stars and moons inside it
(the dimension has no name so i call it the desert dimensions)

3- the dark world dimensions has constellations inside it

inconsistencies/stuff that doesn't make sense​

1-neo space is inside the human world and is on Io a moon that orbits jupiter and is obviously isn't a part of the 12 dimensions since it has never been called a part of the 12 dimensions and it was never even called a dimension in general

2-neo space has never been called a dimensions it's always been called "neo supēsu"(meaning neo space in english) it's been called "neo uchu" twice (uchu meaning either space or universe) and it's been called a sub-space once, and it's pretty obvious how ridiculous it is to say that io is a universal space-time instead of just a normal space inside another space
i.e a location within another space

3-the size of the world of darkness:
we all know how darkness absorbed the 12 dimensions but is still planet level in size

the problem with this is that @SomebodyData 's interpretation still doesn't make sense since he's not only ingoring the stars and constellations, his interpretation of the 12 dimensions being moon sized would still make the world of darkness be bigger than the planet which isn't the case since they are stated and shown to be equal

​

the solution to the world of darkness size problem​

since both my and @SomebodyData 's interpretation would still make the world of darkness bigger than earth here's the solution

it's fairly simple since it's explained in the show how inside the world of darkness is a place where physical form is not needed and how it's void that will make people live for all eternity
and how once you lose your individuality you'll fully become one with darkness and you will get erased from existence

 

[Zencha9]

Especially since the current rebuttal of their size using the stars and moon of the dark world and desert dimension have already been accepted by other admins with the pointing out of the fact that you can see the rest of the main universe from Neo Space and the World of Darkness, so it isn't necessarily part of those two dimensions you brought up.

sorry i don't get this
neo space is on the io moon of course the stars can be seen
there are times when darkness and his goons show you what's inside the realm or outside the world of darkness
besides the 12 dimensions are divded how does any of this matter unless they are connected ?

 

[Zencha9]

for some reason the qoute doesn't show the translation
anyways here

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と

i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate some further staff help here, as this has been going in circles for a long time.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'm not staff but I 100% disagree with the universes in GX being only 5-B in size since it not only contradicts the story (starry skies and all) but it also makes no sense to assume the size of the 12 dimensions based on two realms (world of darkness and neo-space) that aren't even part of nor naturally connected to the 12 dimensions plus we've got multiple examples of characters eating/absorbing planets to timelines without growing to the "exact" size of the object they consumed. To partly base the size of a dimension based on another dimension swallowing it makes little sense from my PoV (plus fiction is weird).

I'm neutral with everything else tho.

 

[Zencha9]

yeah plus there's a canon explanation to how darkness can erase stuff inside his world
and we never see these worlds/universes inside the world of darkness ever

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise what the staff members who have responded here have thought so far?

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not staff but I 100% disagree with the universes in GX being only 5-B in size since it not only contradicts the story (starry skies and all) but it also makes no sense to assume the size of the 12 dimensions based on two realms (world of darkness and neo-space) that aren't even part of nor naturally connected to the 12 dimensions plus we've got multiple examples of characters eating/absorbing planets to timelines without growing to the "exact" size of the object they consumed. To partly base the size of a dimension based on another dimension swallowing it makes little sense from my PoV (plus fiction is weird).

I'm neutral with everything else tho.

I know you're not staff but since it's a quick rebuttal I've decided to reply:

For one, we do know that it actually did grow according to its consumption. It's also the first scans in my summary, which please check before responding.

As for the starry sky, again, the universes we've been shown in GX allow on-viewers to look past their dimensional walls (You can see Jupiter from Neo Space and WoD from Earth for example), so that very well might just be the regular universe.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Antvasima

In Agree:

DarkDragonMedeus

Ogbunabali

Mr.Bambu

AKM-Sama (?) (Refuted some of Zencha's earlier posts, but just because they disagree with Zencha doesn't mean they agree with me.)

In Disagree:

DemonGodMitch

DinoRangerBlack

QuasiYuri

Neutral:

Crabwhale

KingTempest

Samanpatou (Argues At least 4-A, likely 2-C)

 

[Zencha9]

pretty sure bambu said both of us makes sense
but i don't want to put words in his mouth so you should tag him

 

[SomebodyData]

Neither of you are using single statements and neither of you are making arguments as weak as the other is trying to portray it as. From where I sit, both of you have reasonably compelling arguments- which is a problem, since it means the verse is somewhat inconsistent in its phrasing and portrayal of shit. Which, in my book, means I go with the lesser option- better to underestimate than overestimate, imo, though this largely comes down to personal opinion.

Honestly, I get the notion that the verse is wildly inconsistent based on the arguments above- I don't know rightly how to approach this, though I'm leaning in favor of SD's proposal if only because the verse seems to bounce between definitions, so a conservative take is better in my mind.

Since I quoted their comments, Mr.Bambu should get a notif. But I think they were in agreement, if just barely.

 

[Zencha9]

As for the starry sky, again, the universes we've been shown in GX allow on-viewers to look past their dimensional walls (You can see Jupiter from Neo Space and WoD from Earth for example), so that very well might just be the regular universe.

i'm gonna call you out on that me and @Jeune_fou already explained how neo space isn't dimension or is it ever called a dimension in the show ever it's on io moon in our universe
and darkness and his people can show what's inside the world of darkness and vice versa so i would like to see a scan where the universe is visable from the outside

 

[SomebodyData]

And I showed scans to the contrary:

And while it might be embarrassing to debunk your own argument, you did that when you both provided scans where Neo-Space was stated to be a subspace (A space-time continuum in fiction):

But honestly, this is reconfirming what I thought earlier- we just discussed this a few posts ago and now it's being brought after it's been shown that votes won't lead to your result. Stalling really doesn't work when it's not subtle.

 

[Zencha9]

And while it might be embarrassing to debunk your own argument, you did that when you both provided scans where Neo-Space was stated to be a subspace (A space-time continuum in fiction):


But honestly, this is reconfirming what I thought earlier- we just discussed this a few posts ago and now it's being brought after it's been shown that votes won't lead to your result. Stalling really doesn't work when it's not subtle.

first off like i said that's rarely used, it's general meaning is a space within another space you have prove the other less used meaning "a hypothetical space time continuum used for communication at speed faster than light" but you can't because it's contradicted in the show
and my whole point is neo space does not matter cuz it was never called a dimension in gx they make that out as as a clear distinction it could literally be 1-A for all i care if it isn't called a dimension then your point is irrelevant

 

[Zencha9]

btw here's fubuki going inside the world of darkness and it shows how deep it goes and how the nothing is visable when you go inside

https://i.gyazo.com/5807ef4dcf611082ad54f34637d465a8.mp4

 

[Zencha9]

i also discussed with someone about the size of the world of darkness by your interpretation @SomebodyData
the world of darkness would be 43.48x smaller than earth
(assuming every dimension is the size of IO and has a moon like the desert dimension )

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was in favor of SD's proposal, yes, but I must reiterate that I felt both interpretations were fine and ultimately boiled down to semantics- which is splitting hairs, in my book. I just prefer to avoid overestimation rather than the opposite.

 

[Zencha9]

we're kinda past the uchu semantics (a little)
so i'll explain how SD contradicts the show's own words and how his interpretation makes alot of plot holes

1- the world of darkness
like i said the world of darkness was stated to be a place where physical form is not needed and a void which will make humans live for all eternity by melting their consciousness and becming fully with him and getting erased from existence (scans : 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 )
SD claims that it would it is not a void because it caused a sailor eclipse which is fair but both statments refer to the inside of the world not the outside
and darkness's goal wouldn't make any sense since their mass/physical bodies would be there and all human bodies would die from rotting
and by his interpretation then the 12 dimensions would be equal to neo space which is on the io moon (scans , 1 , 2 ) and 11 of them would still be 43.48x smaller than earth which isn't the case as shown and stated that they are equal (scans 1 , 2 )

2- the neo space stuff
i still have no idea why he's comparing neo space to the 12 dimensions
neo space is on the normal universe and not an alt universe it's on io for god sake (scans , 1 , 2 )
and neo space was never stated to be part of the 12 dimensions and was never called a dimension in general for the first time it is introduced until the end of the show (2 seasons)

and the 12 dimensions being inside one universe is contradicted multiple times

• they are parallel dimensions duh ( 1 ) meanwhile neo space is on the Io moon
• they needed a wormhole to even get a small rocket containing a card to get into another dimensions meanwhile a normal satellite reached neo space ( 1 , 2 )
• they are stated to be separate

じゅ十二にの 次元 に 分かれ て 存在 する 全て の 宇宙 僕 の 十 代 に 対する 愛 で 満たす と

i'll fill all the twelve universes that exists in different dimensions with my love for you, Judai.

 

[Abysswalker2126]

Also is nobody going to comment on how The Darkness’s cards Zero and Infinity depict the creation of the universe?

the omniversal battlefield wiki reasoning for low 2-c darkness is

“Universe Level+ (Created the World of Darkness, which is an entire universe that exists outside the normal universe. Wields both "Infinity" and "Zero", of which are meant to represent the creation of the universe. His defeat by Jaiden caused the entire World of Darkness to collapse. Is the universal embodiment of Darkness and controls all of it across existence)”

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

In Agree:

DarkDragonMedeus

Ogbunabali

Mr.Bambu

AKM-Sama (?) (Refuted some of Zencha's earlier posts, but just because they disagree with Zencha doesn't mean they agree with me.)

In Disagree:

DemonGodMitch

DinoRangerBlack

QuasiYuri

Neutral:

Crabwhale

KingTempest

Samanpatou (Argues At least 4-A, likely 2-C)

Thank you. It seems like you have a slight staff overweight then.

I was in favor of SD's proposal, yes, but I must reiterate that I felt both interpretations were fine and ultimately boiled down to semantics- which is splitting hairs, in my book. I just prefer to avoid overestimation rather than the opposite.

So should we use "At least ..., at most ..." instead then?

 

[Zencha9]

Thank you. It seems like you have a slight staff overweight then.

you should ask akm to comment
so far it's equal
(even though SD's interpretation contradicts the plot character motives as shown by my post above)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do you think @AKM sama ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So should we use "At least ..., at most ..." instead then?

There is something to be said about this, yeah. I'm think it'd be a fine solution though Zencha says they've moved past the more semantics-based arguments (which I did not notice) so this may not be valid if that's true.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What about the rest of you? Does a compromise solution seem acceptable to apply?

 

[SomebodyData]

i also discussed with someone about the size of the world of darkness by your interpretation @SomebodyData
the world of darkness would be 43.48x smaller than earth
(assuming every dimension is the size of IO and has a moon like the desert dimension )

?? That seems like a really random number. Especially since we already know it's comparable to the Earth?

The only way I could think you got that number is from assuming the WoD didn't grow after consuming the 11 dimensions- remember how the darkness in the hearts of people made it bigger?

 

[SomebodyData]

Okay. What about the rest of you? Does a compromise solution seem acceptable to apply?

I don't think either Zencha or I would agree with the compromise, as either end seem really far-fetched to the other.

 

[Zencha9]

?? That seems like a really random number. Especially since we already know it's comparable to the Earth?

The only way I could think you got that number is from assuming the WoD didn't grow after consuming the 11 dimensions- remember how the darkness in the hearts of people made it bigger?

your interpretation assumes that the 11 dimensions are comparable to neo space right ? neo space is on Io, 11 Ios combined are way bellow earth
remember how the darkness in people's hearts didn't make it bigger and only created cards ? that works exactly the same as the humans trapped inside the cards?
i.e nonexistent