Your Waifus Do Not Exist: Touhou Main Cast NEP + High-Godly

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again, just to get this out of the way, yes, this is important enough to not be considered spam, given it gives NEP and high-godly regen to dozens of characters.

As I’m sure any Touhou fan is aware, Gensokyo is basically a land of fiction, illusions, and the like; nothing there really ‘exists’.

BAiJR states that things go to Gensokyo when they lose their existence, and that vampires and maids are “illusionary beings that do not exist”.

Things that enter Gensokyo lose their existence.

Things that enter Gensokyo are stated to renounce their existence and cease to exist.

The visions that Maribel sees of Gensokyo are described as nonexistent.

‘Youkai whose nonexistence is obvious’ inherently appear in Gensokyo immediately after their creation.

Rinnosuke describes Gensokyo, as well as everything inside it, as illusionary.

Finally, CoLA confirms that Gensokyo lacks ‘truth’, and describes truth as a kind of fundamental information that can define reality (ie; Type 2 information).

All of this proves that Gensokyo, and everything in it, has aspect type 4 from lacking fundamental information. I’m not 100% sure if being ‘forgotten’ by humanity and becoming non-existent from that would qualify for another aspect of nothingness beyond that, or is also just type 4 (it could maybe be type 2?); Any input on this is appreciated.

Koishi would additionally have type 3 due to lacking a mind, and Yoshika and Mayumi would also have type 1 due to lacking souls (y’know, whenever I get around to making the rest of the WBaWC profiles).

But Who Does This Apply to?

Naturally, with all the statements about the nature of Gensokyo, this applies to everyone who lives there (Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Yukari, you get the idea). However, what ‘Gensokyo’ is is a bit weird in this context. The thing that draws the line between existent and non-existent in Touhou isn’t the Hakurei Barrier that encloses the physical space of Gensokyo; it’s actually a completely separate barrier, as mentioned in SCoOW. This barrier, created by Yukari, is what defines the line of existent and non-existent, and is said to extend across the entire world. This means that this barrier encapsulates basically everything, which in turn means that everybody who is not in the outside world has been affected by this barrier and is thus nonexistent.

TL;DR: It applies to everybody who doesn’t reside in the outside world. Since the barrier separating ‘truth’ (type 2 information) and ‘fiction’ was created by Yukari, she would get Information Manipulation (Type 2) from manipulating truth.

Incorporeality

There are a few instances where Gensokyo denizens interact with the outside world in a manner that could prove or disprove NEP. But first, let’s get the supposed anti-feats out of the way.

There are quite a few instances where characters are shown to be able to travel to the outside world. However, what’s important to note here is that virtually none of them interact with the world in such a way that would disprove incorporeality. Mamizou sneaks out to keep watch over Sumireko, but merely looking at someone doesn’t require physical interaction. Yukari visits the outside world in one of the fairy manga, but she doesn’t physically touch anything; She’s just standing there. She’s also rumored to go to the outside world to see the cherry blossoms, but again, no physical interaction required.

Another instance is during the events of ULiL, where the protagonists fight Sumireko in the outside world. At first this seems like pretty blatant counter evidence for incorporeality, but the issue here is that we don’t actually see anybody interact with the outside world itself. Their only point of interaction is with Sumireko, who is already capable of harming NEP beings as shown in her fights against dream Junko (and yes, dream Junko should have the same qualities as the ‘real’ Junko since dream selves are identical to their real world counterparts). The fact that she can harm a being with nature type 2 NEP means harming beings with nature type 1 would be extremely easy for her.

As for actual proof of incorporeality, when Maribel enters Gensokyo, she is stated to be akin to a phantom-like being.

Furthermore, when Maribel is describing Gensokyo, she states that physical form is meaningless there.

Finally, when she sees a youkai cat in the outside world, she notes that it’s phasing through objects.

(Source for all of these is Dr. Latency’s Freak Report)

So all the possible anti-feats for incorporeality aren’t really anti-feats, and there are quite a few statements of how things lose their physical form when entering Gensokyo, with said formlessness carrying over to the outside world as well. Pretty clear incorporeality overall, which means we can safely say that everybody in Gensokyo qualifies for NEP.

Youkai High-Godly

Don’t worry, this is still partially related to the NEP. As explained in the scans above, youkai disappear immediately in the outside world (in addition to this scan), and this is explicitly informational erasure also for the reasons listed above. One of the ways to qualify for high-godly is reforming from having your type 2 information erased, and youkai are stated to do exactly that. So the description would be as follows:

Regeneration (High-Godly; If a youkai is erased from the outside world and has the truth of their existence refuted, they will reform inside Gensokyo immediately)

TL;DR: Give everyone except Sumireko, Renko, and Maribel Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 4). Yukari gets Information Manipulation (Type 2) from creating the barrier that defines the informational existence and non-existence of certain beings. All youkai get Regeneration (High-Godly) from recovering from informational erasure.

AGREE: OverlordDonnelly, Bummel (Neutral on high-godly), Cat, ÆONS (Only agrees with NEP for youkai, thinks gods should get information manip too), Thestrikingzebra, Shiroiyo, Greatsage13th

DISAGREE: Hecatia_Gaming (Agrees with Yukari information manip and youkai high-godly), DaimouAshura, Malomtek (Agrees with information manip)

NEUTRAL: TheGreatJedi13 (Agrees with information manip), WanderingGecko

 

[Pixy]

Following

 

[Jibz]

would this regen be combat applicable?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It happens instantly, so probably. The issue is whether or not all instances of conceptual erasure cause youkai to reform inside Gensokyo, or just the specific kind brought about by Yukari's barrier. In the former case, it's not combat applicable unless the youkai in question has some sort of dimensional travel or whatever (unless you specify in a VS thread that the fight takes place in Gensokyo, in which case it is combat applicable). In the latter case, 100% combat applicable.

They'll have combat applicable mid-godly regardless, however.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I don't think nonexistence or losing their existence in this context means literal nothingness. It seems mostly that 1) they are losing it's part in the Outside World, and 2) they are becoming "fantasy." For example, Moriya Shrine and Scarlet Devil Mansion's statements, in which they aren't directly losing their whole existence, but instead, their place in the Outside World. Yet, they still exist, obviously, in Gensokyo. And that's not because they are becoming voids or something like that, but instead, because in Gensokyo, fantasy rules over reality, and thus, any kind of magical, weird, and essentially illogical creature can fit there. Further prove of that it's the very Maribel's statement, in which Renko says that strange and unknown principles and phenomena's are treated as inexistent, because, well, they cannot be totally explained.

As for "Youkai whose nonexistence is obvious" thing, well, that's the same as I'm explaining. The whole context of the statement is how Youkai are born from humanity's imagination, which, in this sense, means "nonexistence." From the record, being an imagination or something made of thoughts doesn't bring NEP, but instead, Abstract Existence (Type 1). Same goes from the illusionary stuff (an illusion isn't "inexistent" in the sense of lacking of existence, but instead, because is something more akin to mind and perception). And, well, I don't think someone who is nonexistent could be an aspect of reality, aka a natural phenomenon, which the Youkais are.

So, yeah, I don't think NEP could work here. However, I think Abstract Existence instead can be argued, which, with what I've already explained, makes more sense than NEP.
Buuut, that should be only for Youkais. I don't think humans in Gensokyo can 100% fit with this.

For the other stuff, well, makes sense. But, again, that should only be for Youkai, who are the only supernatural beings that defy logic and are consistently creatures who lacks of a physical body. I don't think it correlates with humans, and the statements are mostly specifically speaking about them.

 

[Shmooply]

Based ZUN reminding weebs that their weifoos aren't real. Give him his crown already.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think nonexistence or losing their existence in this context means literal nothingness. It seems mostly that 1) they are losing it's part in the Outside World, and 2) they are becoming "fantasy." For example, Moriya Shrine and Scarlet Devil Mansion's statements, in which they aren't directly losing their whole existence, but instead, their place in the Outside World. Yet, they still exist, obviously, in Gensokyo. And that's not because they are becoming voids or something like that, but instead, because in Gensokyo, fantasy rules over reality, and thus, any kind of magical, weird, and essentially illogical creature can fit there. Further prove of that it's the very Maribel's statement, in which Renko says that strange and unknown principles and phenomena's are treated as inexistent, because, well, they cannot be totally explained.

Allow me to quote some excerpts from the NEP page that will hopefully show you that everything I have listed does in fact meet the criteria.

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence"

So right off the bat, you don't need to be a literal walking void to have NEP; You just need to lack one of the fundamental aspects of existence, of which information is a part. And Rinnosuke's explanation very clearly explains how that information does not exist in Gensokyo, and thus everyone within it (after all, if a single Gensokyo denizen had information, then Gensokyo would too by extension). Also, your explanation on what Gensokyo's purpose is is true, but doesn't even necessarily counter anything. All it really does is explain why things become non-existent; They disappear because they are magical or illogical, which does not affect the simple fact that they are in fact becoming non-existent.

"Examples of possible portrayals include, but are not limited to, existing in a state of a being prior to being born in any form or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way."

Again, this is a specific form of NEP that Touhou characters blatantly qualify for. Youkai are directly stated to be erased when being forgotten in the outside world, yet paradoxically continue to exist inside Gensokyo after the fact, which is basically 1-to-1 with what this form of NEP is.

And the point about the SDM just. isn't what's in the text. It directly says it 'loses its existence', yet you want to pretend that that somehow isn't the case.

As for "Youkai whose nonexistence is obvious" thing, well, that's the same as I'm explaining. The whole context of the statement is how Youkai are born from humanity's imagination, which, in this sense, means "nonexistence." From the record, being an imagination or something made of thoughts doesn't bring NEP, but instead, Abstract Existence (Type 1). Same goes from the illusionary stuff (an illusion isn't "inexistent" in the sense of lacking of existence, but instead, because is something more akin to mind and perception). And, well, I don't think someone who is nonexistent could be an aspect of reality, aka a natural phenomenon, which the Youkais are.

You're misunderstanding the context here. The illusionary statement doesn't mean literal illusions, like we classify illusion creation. Nothing about Rinnosuke's statement implies as such. The last point doesn't work either, because youkai embody a concept, not information; The thing that they embody still very much exists, even if a separate and unrelated aspect of their existence does not.

For the other stuff, well, makes sense. But, again, that should only be for Youkai, who are the only supernatural beings that defy logic and are consistently creatures who lacks of a physical body. I don't think it correlates with humans, and the statements are mostly specifically speaking about them.

Youkai AE should be its own thread, and nothing that I've posted here really suggests AE.

For the other stuff, well, makes sense. But, again, that should only be for Youkai, who are the only supernatural beings that defy logic and are consistently creatures who lacks of a physical body. I don't think it correlates with humans, and the statements are mostly specifically speaking about them.

The first statement is about Maribel, a human, losing her physical form as she enters Gensokyo. The statement about physical form being meaningless is referring to the entirety of Gensokyo, and while the topic was brought about from discussion of youkai, that doesn't inherently mean it was just in reference to youkai.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right, when you said other stuff makes sense, were you just referring to Yukari's information manip? Or is there something else you agree with?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Oh right, when you said other stuff makes sense, were you just referring to Yukari's information manip? Or is there something else you agree with?

Well that + High-Godly regen for Youkai, also incorporeality, for them.

Also, going to respond tomorrow for the other stuff.

But first:

Youkai AE should be its own thread, and nothing that I've posted here really suggests AE

Actually yes. The statement of them being created by imagination proves that they are mostly abstract images of the mind, which is supported with them being incorporeal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well that + High-Godly regen for Youkai, also incorporeality, for them.

Also, going to respond tomorrow for the other stuff.

Alright, cool. There's some other solid stuff for youkai incorporeality as well, though the context for that is limited to Gensokyo and doesn't really have anything to do with existent/non-existent interactions.

Also feel free to take your time responding, I'm in no rush here.

Actually yes. The statement of them being created by imagination proves that they are mostly abstract images of the mind, which is supported with them being incorporeal.

There's more to it than that, you need evidence that the abstraction they embody can bring them back indefinitely. And while that IS the case for youkai, I would prefer to keep this thread focused on one thing and avoid derailment, given its importance.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

There's more to it than that, you need evidence that the abstraction they embody can bring them back indefinitely. And while that IS the case for youkai, I would prefer to keep this thread focused on one thing and avoid derailment, given its importance.

Not really. You are misunderstanding Type 2 with Type 1, which is the one I'm arguing.

For 1, the only requirement is that you are totally the abstraction, while physical manifestations are just avatars and such. It's not related with being reliant on am abstraction or something.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Nope, both types require it.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Eeeeee Messi

 

[DaimaouAshura]

I don't think nonexistence or losing their existence in this context means literal nothingness. It seems mostly that 1) they are losing it's part in the Outside World, and 2) they are becoming "fantasy." For example, Moriya Shrine and Scarlet Devil Mansion's statements, in which they aren't directly losing their whole existence, but instead, their place in the Outside World. Yet, they still exist, obviously, in Gensokyo. And that's not because they are becoming voids or something like that, but instead, because in Gensokyo, fantasy rules over reality, and thus, any kind of magical, weird, and essentially illogical creature can fit there. Further prove of that it's the very Maribel's statement, in which Renko says that strange and unknown principles and phenomena's are treated as inexistent, because, well, they cannot be totally explained.

As for "Youkai whose nonexistence is obvious" thing, well, that's the same as I'm explaining. The whole context of the statement is how Youkai are born from humanity's imagination, which, in this sense, means "nonexistence." From the record, being an imagination or something made of thoughts doesn't bring NEP, but instead, Abstract Existence (Type 1). Same goes from the illusionary stuff (an illusion isn't "inexistent" in the sense of lacking of existence, but instead, because is something more akin to mind and perception). And, well, I don't think someone who is nonexistent could be an aspect of reality, aka a natural phenomenon, which the Youkais are.

So, yeah, I don't think NEP could work here. However, I think Abstract Existence instead can be argued, which, with what I've already explained, makes more sense than NEP.
Buuut, that should be only for Youkais. I don't think humans in Gensokyo can 100% fit with this.

For the other stuff, well, makes sense. But, again, that should only be for Youkai, who are the only supernatural beings that defy logic and are consistently creatures who lacks of a physical body. I don't think it correlates with humans, and the statements are mostly specifically speaking about them.

My thoughts on NEP are in line with this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idk what exactly isn't being understood here, there is clear indication that type 2 information does not exist within Gensokyo. All the stuff about Gensokyo being a place for magical/fantastical things isn't even a counterpoint, because that's literally why things become non-existent; They are regarded as fantasy or otherwise 'fictional'. and that is what causes them to enter Gensokyo and lose their type 2 information (truth) and lose their physical form. It doesn't contradict NEP in the slightest when it's literally just the explanation for how and why NEP happens.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Eeeeee Messi

Lionel Messi#Run

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, if I am understanding Hecatia's position correctly, the issue is that they seem to think the statements of non-existence are about Gensokyo relative to the outside world; As in, Gensokyo objectively exists, but does not appear that way to the outside world.

However, Rinnosuke's statement is speaking from an objective point of view; With no comparison to other locations, we cannot say that the statement of non-existence here is based on individual perception, and is thus still valid regardless of one's interpretation of it.

And, given this is explicit confirmation of aspect type 4, and we have repeated demonstrations of incorporeality, this means even if we were to discard every other scan on the basis of a flimsy interpretation, NEP would still hold weight.

So here's a chart more clearly explaining what the deal is. With Hecatia's interpretation, the bceoming non-existent stuff is just in reference to moving between the outside world and Gensokyo. However, with Rinnosuke's statement taken into account, we know the process of this occurring removes the 'truth' (type 2 information) of whatever is moving between those worlds. And due to Maribel losing her physical form in Gensokyo, as well as stating that the entirety of it is non-physical, we can safely say that the incorporeality aspect of NEP is met as well. And of course, lacking information and a physical form is literally as blatant of a case of NEP as possible.

 

[Pixy]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also should note that Miko compares her state of non-existence to a 'god-like existence', and given Junko's purification that reduces things to a non-existent state is ALSO said to bring out their 'godly nature', we can safely assume that this talk of god-like existences is referring to objective non-existence and not just moving from point A to point B. So at this point there's no reason not to have NEP be the default assumption when there's a clear comparison to something I hope we all agree is NEP.

Also you could charitably read this as evidence for type 2 NEP but let's not go that far

Also feel the need to mention how silly it is that we're choosing to interpret statements of losing existence as just moving from one place to another. I just finished moving, but I definitely wouldn't say I've 'ceased to exist', 'given up my existence', 'renounced my existence', or so on.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Allow me to quote some excerpts from the NEP page that will hopefully show you that everything I have listed does in fact meet the criteria.

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence"

So right off the bat, you don't need to be a literal walking void to have NEP; You just need to lack one of the fundamental aspects of existence, of which information is a part. And Rinnosuke's explanation very clearly explains how that information does not exist in Gensokyo, and thus everyone within it (after all, if a single Gensokyo denizen had information, then Gensokyo would too by extension). Also, your explanation on what Gensokyo's purpose is is true, but doesn't even necessarily counter anything. All it really does is explain why things become non-existent; They disappear because they are magical or illogical, which does not affect the simple fact that they are in fact becoming non-existent.

The issue however is that they aren't becoming essentially nonexistent beings. Their "nonexistence" just means losing place in Outside World, but they are still clearly existing characters in Gensokyo, and it's not like it is a void in first place. Just lacking of one aspect (information) of existence isn't enough to qualify NEP, when for that you need to be, well, a walking void.

I will explain it like this:

Obviously, the best you can argue for NEP is Type 1, as neither Type 2 or 3 are logical for several obvious reasons.

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.

Here is the thing: what you are implying is that X due to being illusionary of fantastical becomes 0. While, under the perspective of the Outside World, this is true, that rule isn't followed by any other worlds, including Gensokyo.

What happens here, actually, is that X due to being contradictory with the Outside World, becomes 0 for them. However, they aren't actually becoming 0. What happens is that, X, which was initially 1, remains at 1, but, it's being transported into Gensokyo, as in that world everything contradictory with Outside World's laws can stay without further issue.

That's the problem with giving NEP to the characters only for that. It's not the same thing as with the general standards to qualify for it. And as someone who read the whole NEP revision thread and changes, it's pretty obvious that just lacking of one aspect isn't going to give you the ability only for that.

"Examples of possible portrayals include, but are not limited to, existing in a state of a being prior to being born in any form or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way."

Again, this is a specific form of NEP that Touhou characters blatantly qualify for. Youkai are directly stated to be erased when being forgotten in the outside world, yet paradoxically continue to exist inside Gensokyo after the fact, which is basically 1-to-1 with what this form of NEP is.

And the point about the SDM just. isn't what's in the text. It directly says it 'loses its existence', yet you want to pretend that that somehow isn't the case.

That again, isn't true at all. Firstly, Youkai are indeed erased if their existence is forgotten. However, that doesn't mean they are becoming nonexistent, because that's something would 100% kill them. If they are giving up their existence in the Outside World it's because there the things are different than Gensokyo (not enough magical energy to use their abilities or create fear among mankind), but since in Gensokyo they can still gain power from the fear of humans there, they decide to travel to it, while being "banished" from the Outside World.

It's not a 1-to-1 comparison. It's just a question of perspectives. Everything regarding losing their existence is within the point of view of the Outside World, but, said, someone who comes from the Lunar Capital to Gensokyo isn't losing their existence there, neither it happens with someone who comes from the Hells to Gensokyo, etc.

You're misunderstanding the context here. The illusionary statement doesn't mean literal illusions, like we classify illusion creation. Nothing about Rinnosuke's statement implies as such. The last point doesn't work either, because youkai embody a concept, not information; The thing that they embody still very much exists, even if a separate and unrelated aspect of their existence does not.

How you interpret it then? Why it shouldn't be an illusion if that's how it's treated? Of course, I'm not saying everything is literally an illusion or something like that, but the comparisons are there. And yes, Youkai embody a concept, but that doesn't mean they doesn't require information. In fact, this is something needed for them, as they exist due to speculation and, yes, information. That's why they need to "distort" history (not in the literal way) so they can still induce fear into humans.

The first statement is about Maribel, a human, losing her physical form as she enters Gensokyo. The statement about physical form being meaningless is referring to the entirety of Gensokyo, and while the topic was brought about from discussion of youkai, that doesn't inherently mean it was just in reference to youkai.

Not totally. In Gensokyo, there's still a clear distinction between physical and non-physical. The physical and mental layers still exists there, and pretty much many of the locations are still physical. Again, this whole thing is question of perspectives, and Maribel seems like a phantom being for them because she's from another world. She isn't saying she became non-corporeal after reaching Gensokyo, she just think she is like an anathema for Gensokyo inhabitants, much like how Sumireko is one for them too. Youkai can be treated as incorporeal due to several reasons, this being something that also applies for them, but that doesn't correlates entirely with the whole world, nor humans who lives inside it.

However, Rinnosuke's statement is speaking from an objective point of view; With no comparison to other locations, we cannot say that the statement of non-existence here is based on individual perception, and is thus still valid regardless of one's interpretation of it.

Ehmm, no? Rinnosuke isn't saying that the illusionary creatures are nonexistent. He's saying that these kind of entities can be found in Gensokyo, due to it being the "illusion" of the Outside World. Yet again, that's matter of perspectives (how many times did I said that?), and doesn't mean everyone who enters Gensokyo from any other world besides the Outside World is going to become nonexistent for their worlds.

So here's a chart more clearly explaining what the deal is. With Hecatia's interpretation, the bceoming non-existent stuff is just in reference to moving between the outside world and Gensokyo. However, with Rinnosuke's statement taken into account, we know the process of this occurring removes the 'truth' (type 2 information) of whatever is moving between those worlds. And due to Maribel losing her physical form in Gensokyo, as well as stating that the entirety of it is non-physical, we can safely say that the incorporeality aspect of NEP is met as well. And of course, lacking information and a physical form is literally as blatant of a case of NEP as possible.

Actually I want to talk about this.
Look, what Rinnosuke is saying isn't that in Gensokyo truth or information doesn't exist. What he's saying, instead, is that truth and information are both so convoluted and volatile concepts, that basically everybody can change it at will, so they can alter established facts and change reality with this. Truth (or well, ""truth"") it's something that still exist in Gensokyo, but in another way than how it is in the Outside World. I remind you, the memory layer still exist here, and Bunbunmaru News too, which, as stated by Hecatia herself (haha me), it's something that can passively manipulate the facts so information can be filtered to, for example, Lunarians. That's why Rinnosuke says truth is the ultimate illusion that doesn't exist in Gensokyo, because basically someone with Information Manip and so can be capable of changing it at they pleases. Even Youkais do this by changing history(?).
So yeah, there's no real loss of information in all that process.

Also should note that Miko compares her state of non-existence to a 'god-like existence', and given Junko's purification that reduces things to a non-existent state is ALSO said to bring out their 'godly nature', we can safely assume that this talk of god-like existences is referring to objective non-existence and not just moving from point A to point B. So at this point there's no reason not to have NEP be the default assumption when there's a clear comparison to something I hope we all agree is NEP.

You are misunderstanding Miko's words here. She didn't compared her "non-existent" status with being a god-like existence in the literal way. She only said so because, yeah, she was erased from the records of the Outside World. But that isn't something really correlated with NEP or if she literally ascended to the state of godhood. And actually, the same scan proves me right with my argument of moving from one place to another, by stating how things that renounced to their existence in the Outside World can be found in Gensokyo.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The issue however is that they aren't becoming essentially nonexistent beings. Their "nonexistence" just means losing place in Outside World, but they are still clearly existing characters in Gensokyo, and it's not like it is a void in first place. Just lacking of one aspect (information) of existence isn't enough to qualify NEP, when for that you need to be, well, a walking void.

Lemme stop you right there. This is blatantly wrong, and it shows that you haven't really read the NEP page very thoroughly.

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence"

This is literally the opening line on the NEP page. You can, in fact, just lack certain aspects of existence and qualify for NEP so long as you meet the incorporeality requirement. All this nonsense about walking voids means nothing, because it has very little to do with what grants NEP to begin with.

I will explain it like this:

Obviously, the best you can argue for NEP is Type 1, as neither Type 2 or 3 are logical for several obvious reasons.

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.

Here is the thing: what you are implying is that X due to being illusionary of fantastical becomes 0. While, under the perspective of the Outside World, this is true, that rule isn't followed by any other worlds, including Gensokyo.

What happens here, actually, is that X due to being contradictory with the Outside World, becomes 0 for them. However, they aren't actually becoming 0. What happens is that, X, which was initially 1, remains at 1, but, it's being transported into Gensokyo, as in that world everything contradictory with Outside World's laws can stay without further issue.

So what exactly do you mean by "that rule isn't followed by any other worlds"? Regardless, your explanation here boils down to "they aren't becoming non-existent, they are just moving to Gensokyo". However, you have ignored the context of how doing so makes one non-existent in the process. You say they retain these aspects of their existence, yet that isn't the case as we can clearly see how entering Gensokyo strips one of their physical form, and lose their information as well.

How you interpret it then? Why it shouldn't be an illusion if that's how it's treated? Of course, I'm not saying everything is literally an illusion or something like that, but the comparisons are there. And yes, Youkai embody a concept, but that doesn't mean they doesn't require information. In fact, this is something needed for them, as they exist due to speculation and, yes, information. That's why they need to "distort" history (not in the literal way) so they can still induce fear into humans.

Illusionary can be defined as something likened to an illusion, so it's just a matter of comparison rather than a literal illusion. For the second part of your argument, nothing you described is really related to type 2 information. History in Touhou is just a system of causality, and can operate just fine without type 2 information. Same goes for fear, as that is a matter of emotional and mental control, which again, does not require information. Touhou characters exist in every regard except for their information, so trying to point to other systems of importance such as concepts or causality doesn't mean anything here, since I never claimed those were non-existent.

Not totally. In Gensokyo, there's still a clear distinction between physical and non-physical. The physical and mental layers still exists there, and pretty much many of the locations are still physical. Again, this whole thing is question of perspectives, and Maribel seems like a phantom being for them because she's from another world. She isn't saying she became non-corporeal after reaching Gensokyo, she just think she is like an anathema for Gensokyo inhabitants, much like how Sumireko is one for them too. Youkai can be treated as incorporeal due to several reasons, this being something that also applies for them, but that doesn't correlates entirely with the whole world, nor humans who lives inside it.

The physical layer isn't defined on the basis of physical objects alone; In fact, incorporeal entities such as ghosts or phantoms obviously still exist on that layer. Maribel being compared to a non-physical entity on the basis of being from another world makes 0 sense, because if that were the case, literally everybody in Gensokyo would see the denizens of Hell, Heaven, or any other Otherworld as non-physical as well, which obviously isn't the case. And again, the statement you're interpreting as just applying to youkai is in fact being applied to all of Gensokyo ("physical form has no meaning in that world beyond anyways"). It's clearly making a generalized statement, and the fact that youkai are mentioned in the same passage doesn't change that.

Ehmm, no? Rinnosuke isn't saying that the illusionary creatures are nonexistent. He's saying that these kind of entities can be found in Gensokyo, due to it being the "illusion" of the Outside World. Yet again, that's matter of perspectives (how many times did I said that?), and doesn't mean everyone who enters Gensokyo from any other world besides the Outside World is going to become nonexistent for their worlds.

You misunderstand, the statement I was referring to was the one about truth not existing in Gensokyo, not about the illusionary beings one.

Actually I want to talk about this.
Look, what Rinnosuke is saying isn't that in Gensokyo truth or information doesn't exist. What he's saying, instead, is that truth and information are both so convoluted and volatile concepts, that basically everybody can change it at will, so they can alter established facts and change reality with this. Truth (or well, ""truth"") it's something that still exist in Gensokyo, but in another way than how it is in the Outside World. I remind you, the memory layer still exist here, and Bunbunmaru News too, which, as stated by Hecatia herself (haha me), it's something that can passively manipulate the facts so information can be filtered to, for example, Lunarians. That's why Rinnosuke says truth is the ultimate illusion that doesn't exist in Gensokyo, because basically someone with Information Manip and so can be capable of changing it at they pleases. Even Youkais do this by changing history(?).
So yeah, there's no real loss of information in all that process.

Once again, you misunderstand the idea of what type 2 information is. The memory layer determines the memory of the world (causality), probability, and fate; It is not type 2 information in any sense. Same goes for Bunbunmaru; It isn't literal reality-warping information, it's information in the sense of knowledge and ideas, which is type 1 (and even then, just writing down or spreading knowledge isn't enough for type 1 either). Rinnosuke does explicitly say truth doesn't exist in Gensokyo, which is of course a very different thing from truth being easily changed. His final statement on the matter doesn't really change the core idea, either; Truth as a concept can be easily altered, but at the same time, truth does not exist in Gensokyo. Overall, there is loss in information, but what that information is is totally disconnected from other things in the verse, and thus the continued existence of those things isn't contradictory.

You are misunderstanding Miko's words here. She didn't compared her "non-existent" status with being a god-like existence in the literal way. She only said so because, yeah, she was erased from the records of the Outside World. But that isn't something really correlated with NEP or if she literally ascended to the state of godhood. And actually, the same scan proves me right with my argument of moving from one place to another, by stating how things that renounced to their existence in the Outside World can be found in Gensokyo.

Then why exactly would she say she's changed from a human to a god-like existence, then? If she were speaking solely about moving from one place to another, then the idea that the very nature of her being is changing makes 0 sense; A human that moves into Gensokyo is still very much a human, after all. So yes, there is reason to assume that this comparison is referring to one's godly (non-existent) nature.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, how can you agree with high-godly if you think informational erasure isn't occurring? Like, that's the entire basis for high-godly, so if you disagree with that, what makes you think high-godly still works without it?

 

[Shmooply]

Leaning towards Mokou's points.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sorry to keep adding shit on when I really should be fitting everything in one post, but Miko's reaction to her being in Gensokyo kinda contradicts the idea that non-existence is referring to moving between worlds. At this point, she is already aware of having moved between worlds and is fine with it, but is shocked to learn that she has ceased to exist. So if ceasing existence and moving locations are supposedly referring to the same thing, why would Miko have two very different reactions to them?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That again, isn't true at all. Firstly, Youkai are indeed erased if their existence is forgotten. However, that doesn't mean they are becoming nonexistent, because that's something would 100% kill them. If they are giving up their existence in the Outside World it's because there the things are different than Gensokyo (not enough magical energy to use their abilities or create fear among mankind), but since in Gensokyo they can still gain power from the fear of humans there, they decide to travel to it, while being "banished" from the Outside World.

It's not a 1-to-1 comparison. It's just a question of perspectives. Everything regarding losing their existence is within the point of view of the Outside World, but, said, someone who comes from the Lunar Capital to Gensokyo isn't losing their existence there, neither it happens with someone who comes from the Hells to Gensokyo, etc.

Ah, I don't think I ever responded to this.

First of all, no, being non-existent isn't the same thing as being dead. They get erased, and then reform inside Gensokyo, losing certain aspects of themselves in the process. Their reformed state is in no way comparable to a form of 'death'. I'm not arguing that youkai somehow aren't losing influence in the outside world or whatever, I know that's the case and that they enter Gensokyo either through choice or disappearance. What my argument is, however, is that once this process of moving to Gensokyo occurs, regardless of the method, the character in question is rendered non-existent.

As I explained in the OP, the barrier that Yukari created that defines truth and fiction extends across the whole world. In fact, in WaHH, Marisa mentions that even when they went to the Lunar Capital, they were still within the confines of the barrier (she even admits she's never been to the outside world despite going to virtually every other location in the cosmology at this point, further suggesting that the truth-fiction barrier encompasses everything). We know that this is specifically about Yukari's barrier, as Reimu mentions that it's her barrier, and it's not the Hakurei Barrier as that is described as the barrier that encloses the physical 'space' of Gensokyo, which means either 'Gensokyo' in the context of the Hakurei Barrier is in fact referring to all non-outside world locations, or the specific barrier mentioned in WaHH is the second barrier that defines truth. Either way, the idea that non-existence is limited to the island-sized space of Gensokyo is incorrect. So there's no need for characters from the Lunar Capital or whatever to become non-existent upon entering Gensokyo, because the barrier that makes things non-existent to begin with has already affected them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[OverlordDonnelly]

If my waifus aren't real, then how come Doremy came to me in a dream and said otherwise?

Anyway, since I looked through a good amount of this stuff myself before this thread was made, I'm in agreement with the proposals.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If my waifus aren't real, then how come Doremy came to me in a dream and said otherwise?

Did you forget to take your psychosis medication?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Hecatia_Gaming]

Just note that I'm already finishing the response and I will respond possibly tomorrow, or monday .

As a spoiler note, I found many interesting statements about truth and information that gives a more detailed view of the general concept and how it works, which I will explain better.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm looking forward to it :v

I feel like the text walls are only gonna get longer as the thread goes on...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

Found some things that would give another character information manipulation, but I will hold them in reserve since I am 99% sure I'll need to bring them up when responding to Hecatia :v

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Hecatia_Gaming]

Lemme stop you right there. This is blatantly wrong, and it shows that you haven't really read the NEP page very thoroughly.

"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence"

This is literally the opening line on the NEP page. You can, in fact, just lack certain aspects of existence and qualify for NEP so long as you meet the incorporeality requirement. All this nonsense about walking voids means nothing, because it has very little to do with what grants NEP to begin with.

But they aren't really losing any aspect there. While yes, they are being removed in the Outside World and in that sense they are in fact being erased, they aren't becoming nonexistent in the general sense, but just reshaping in another world (Gensokyo).

So what exactly do you mean by "that rule isn't followed by any other worlds"? Regardless, your explanation here boils down to "they aren't becoming non-existent, they are just moving to Gensokyo". However, you have ignored the context of how doing so makes one non-existent in the process. You say they retain these aspects of their existence, yet that isn't the case as we can clearly see how entering Gensokyo strips one of their physical form, and lose their information as well.

I'm saying that for any other world they aren't becoming 0 after entering Gensokyo. You misunderstood my statement. I'm not negating that they disappear in the Outside World. I'm saying that this banishment will not turn then into 0 directly, as they are being restored within Gensokyo due to the whole boundary of reality and fantasy. The whole losing physical form stuff isn't really true at all, but I will explain that below.

Illusionary can be defined as something likened to an illusion, so it's just a matter of comparison rather than a literal illusion. For the second part of your argument, nothing you described is really related to type 2 information. History in Touhou is just a system of causality, and can operate just fine without type 2 information. Same goes for fear, as that is a matter of emotional and mental control, which again, does not require information. Touhou characters exist in every regard except for their information, so trying to point to other systems of importance such as concepts or causality doesn't mean anything here, since I never claimed those were non-existent.

Basically what I said. I didn't make a 1:1 comparison with real illusions, I just said it's something akin to them. And also, none of this really refutes my claims about that part of being "nonexistent" didn't meaning true nonexistence, but just that Youkais are in fact imaginary creatures related to mind and perception.
The memory layer actually correlates with truth and information. That's why Aya indirectly alters history by publishing her newspaper, or her magazine (something stated in Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia), or Sagume changes history by twisting the truth with her words (speaking of that she needs that listed tho). And while fear and such doesn't require information per se, Youkais relies on the records and rumors about what they do in order to exist. For that, obviously, they require information to be existing, because if not, they would have disappear a long while.

The physical layer isn't defined on the basis of physical objects alone; In fact, incorporeal entities such as ghosts or phantoms obviously still exist on that layer. Maribel being compared to a non-physical entity on the basis of being from another world makes 0 sense, because if that were the case, literally everybody in Gensokyo would see the denizens of Hell, Heaven, or any other Otherworld as non-physical as well, which obviously isn't the case. And again, the statement you're interpreting as just applying to youkai is in fact being applied to all of Gensokyo ("physical form has no meaning in that world beyond anyways"). It's clearly making a generalized statement, and the fact that youkai are mentioned in the same passage doesn't change that.

First is the physical layer that moves in accordance with the laws of physics, including all living things, objects, etc. It is on this layer that an object falls towards the ground, and that the water of the river flows.

Literally stated that the physical layer, is, redundantly, physical. It literally follows every physical phenomenon and explains, again, physical laws.
How's that of ghosts and phantoms "obviously" living in the physical layer? No lmao, that's utterly false. There's nothing stating that's the case, and they obviously coexist within the mental layer, which is the metaphysical one. You have nothing to prove that claim, unless I don't know something, because from the record, outside of CoLA, the layers of reality aren't mentioned nevermore. Besides, that isn't disproving my points, because, even assuming that's true somehow, doesn't disproves that there's a clear distinction between physical and non-physical in Gensokyo. Heck, WBaWC literally states how humans are actually physical entities.

Actually, speaking of which...

You're not a human spirit from the Animal Realm!
You're a flesh-and-blood human!

How did you manage to survive in
such a dog-eat-dog place as this?

Now with Maribel, this is an argument with trick yet it's uncontextualized at all. First, while isn't directly mentioned, Gensokyo's inhabitants seeing every entity from different worlds as phantom-like entities doesn't imply a real contradiction at all. Yes, it's speculative, but there's nothing debunking me or you, so it's a dead point. But that's only if we are going with you interpretation. Second, Maribel isn't making a direct statement. She's only saying a speculation of hers, which doesn't proves anything direct at all. She just said a possibility, hence why the "perhaps they see me as a phantom-like being," but she didn't make a direct claim of "I became a phantom-like being when entering Gensokyo" or "My physical body disappeared at the time of entering the world beyond" to assume everyone who enters became non-corporeal. You just can't get much from this if there isn't something clear at all. Third, even assuming that people from the Outside World loses their physical selves after entering Gensokyo... how's supposedly refutes that there's clearly distinctions between physical entities and metaphysical ones, again?
The statement comes after the apparition of a Youkai, and all the examples of incorporeal entities comes from Youkais. But anyway, "physical form has no meaning in that world beyond anyways" doesn't necessarily has to refer as literal, but instead, it just can mean that in Gensokyo incorporeal creatures can coexist with physical ones. It's more logical, and doesn't contradicts previous statements about physical things existing in Gensokyo.

Once again, you misunderstand the idea of what type 2 information is. The memory layer determines the memory of the world (causality), probability, and fate; It is not type 2 information in any sense. Same goes for Bunbunmaru; It isn't literal reality-warping information, it's information in the sense of knowledge and ideas, which is type 1 (and even then, just writing down or spreading knowledge isn't enough for type 1 either). Rinnosuke does explicitly say truth doesn't exist in Gensokyo, which is of course a very different thing from truth being easily changed. His final statement on the matter doesn't really change the core idea, either; Truth as a concept can be easily altered, but at the same time, truth does not exist in Gensokyo. Overall, there is loss in information, but what that information is is totally disconnected from other things in the verse, and thus the continued existence of those things isn't contradictory.

Again no, memory and truth are indeed correlated each other. Bunbunmaru is actually literal information manip, and something that alters and changes truth, stated by your own scan. Even that's the reason Aya's is the perfect target for Lunarians.

Truth? Have you EVER done that? All you do is choose the truth that's most beneficial for you and try to dye the world in that color. Heck, that way of thinking would make you a perfect match for the Lunarians. I mean, sheesh, this magazine of yours is already chock full of prejudice. Seriously, you should go back over every article in here and ask yourself if it's really the truth.

Your own scan states this: truth is built upon information, which makes it something really susceptible against these kind of things. Information as a whole is type 2 for everyone in-verse, so you can't say Aya only has type 1 or so.
Again, the whole context of the statement is that truth itself isn't something you can write and say "ok this is true," but instead it's a so fragile idea that literally can be written and rewritten constantly by those who has enough power to do so.
Actually, that's the whole premise of the chapter. And isn't something totally restrained to Gensokyo, but the entire verse.
(Seriously after reading the whole chapter I see how much decontextualized the statement is)
But anyway. Let's look at the whole context.
First, truth isn't something you can outright put down and write, doing so will instead erase the truth. That's one of the reasons there's no history in Gensokyo:

“I was thinking of writing about everyday happenings.”

“Like a journal? But what would it be useful for?”

“Because the authenticity of these newspapers is somewhat questionable. So I was thinking of writing the facts as close as possible to the truth.”

“That‘s still not truth.”

“When you write down a truth, it is not truth anymore. That’s why it’s impossible to write down the truth. Don’t you know why there isn’t any historical history in Gensokyo?”

“Because every day is peaceful? The things that remain as history are things that were good for a few people and bad for a lot. And even if we have an incident, it’s quickly solved.”

“That’s not all to it. There’s a simpler reason for the lack of history… !!”

Second, the whole reason of this statement:

Most truths are not only built on uncertain bases, they are also fleeting and fragile. Truth is, in fact, easily changed by information. If one is to create information, then one must keep in mind that this information will change reality. There’s no such thing as information that conveys only but the truth. Truth itself is the ultimate illusion, an illusion that doesn’t exist even in Gensokyo.

Isn't because there's literally no information in Gensokyo, but instead, because since Youkai has a long life-span, they can easily (even unconsciously) change facts and information, reason of why there's no historical records in first place:

Gensokyo doesn’t have any historical history. And that is not because everyday is peaceful and the incidents get quickly solved. There’s a simpler reason.

That is because a youkai’s life span is too long. Even if an event were to become history, as long as the involved party is still alive and can go changing the information at their will, the real truth cannot be determined, not upon this uncertain foundation. Truth is a tower built upon the sands of information. If a truth of uncertain authenticity is built, it will crumble in the wind. No matter how many “towers of truth” are erected, they can all melt under the rain. Objectiveness is the most important thing in history, but if the concerned party is still around, it cannot quite separate from its interests. And that’s why there’s no history in Gensokyo.

Third, while truth/history/information can be manipulated by Youkais as they please, that doesn't mean there can't exist truth at all. In fact, that's something Rinnosuke plans to do by creating his own history book, which as he intend, could potentially create the first historical record in Gensokyo:

I intend to use this paper that fell in from the outside world to write about the Gensokyo I see in the most objective fashion I can. If that can become history, then the beginning of my writing of this book will become our very first history. And this first history would be exactly about the birth of Gensokyo’s history. I wrote, at the beginning of my book: “The history of Gensokyo has been born.”

Gensokyo’s history would soon be born through my hands. I wonder if it will come the age when my book will become Gensokyo’s history textbook. At this time, academism will start to take place in Gensokyo, and Gensokyo will become closer to the outside world. Incidentally, if my book does fly off the shelves, it would help a lot with the shop. If I sell more than just goods I collect, then Kourindou could maybe rise above that of a mere second-hand store.

(This also confirms by point about information and the memory layer being essentially connected)
Lastly, even without all of this, there's one character that reaffirms my initial point: Chimata.

For humans, letting go of things is difficult.
Even if you give it to someone, the information that it was a gift from you will remain.
Even if you throw it in the trash, or illegally dump it on a mountain, the information that someone left it there will remain.
Relinquishing ownership is no easy feat.

These days, the buying and selling of things has come to occur without a market's involvement much more often, and as a result, there is an utter glut of ownership rights. She lamented this fact.


When Iizunamaru came to her and asked her to open a marketplace, she knew there was no way she'd let this chance slip by.
She replied that she'd cooperate with her if, and only if, the transactions took place under strict conditions, like those of the original marketplaces.

Marketplaces and ownership can exist in Gensokyo, and thus, information as a whole is still existing there, just in a different way than the regular information of the Outside World. It wouldn't make sense that information as a whole is lost when entering there, yet objects can still have within them remnants of information.

Then why exactly would she say she's changed from a human to a god-like existence, then? If she were speaking solely about moving from one place to another, then the idea that the very nature of her being is changing makes 0 sense; A human that moves into Gensokyo is still very much a human, after all. So yes, there is reason to assume that this comparison is referring to one's godly (non-existent) nature.

Because in that sense she is losing her previous existence, but instead of literally disappearing, she just gained a new one? The conversation goes around the Outside World, and it's talking from the perspective of the Outside World. Of course she's becoming non-existent for them (which is also kinda false because her memory is still there), but that doesn't mean she's actually becoming a nameless/non-existent being as a whole, not in the same sense as a true divinity.

Actually, how can you agree with high-godly if you think informational erasure isn't occurring? Like, that's the entire basis for high-godly, so if you disagree with that, what makes you think high-godly still works without it?

Because it's actually happening... I'm not disagreeing with them losing their existence in the Outside World. What I'm saying here is that doing so isn't enough to give them directly NEP. Like, of course, Youkai are erased after being forgotten/becoming "fictional" beings, but they are restored after reaching Gensokyo, that's my whole point. And yes, they remain as "inexistent" creatures under the perspective of the Outside World, but that's not to be treated as literal, because, again, they return in Gensokyo after this. Like seriously... this is as logical as, said, giving Saber Alter NEP just because she was erased by the Corrupted Grail, yet somehow managed to return as an "erased" existence. Same shit, yet not something to be treated as literal. But in this case is even worse, because literally everything in the series contradicts this notion, like, basically everything I quoted above.

First of all, no, being non-existent isn't the same thing as being dead. They get erased, and then reform inside Gensokyo, losing certain aspects of themselves in the process. Their reformed state is in no way comparable to a form of 'death'. I'm not arguing that youkai somehow aren't losing influence in the outside world or whatever, I know that's the case and that they enter Gensokyo either through choice or disappearance. What my argument is, however, is that once this process of moving to Gensokyo occurs, regardless of the method, the character in question is rendered non-existent.

No. Non-existent in this case is equal to be dead. For a Youkai, being completely forgotten is the equivalent of dying. That's why they need to spread their terror and change information so they can still living. It wouldn't make sense that entering Gensokyo will turn them as non-existent beings because if they become so they will purely die, which also was the whole reason why Gensokyo was created in first place: to prevent this happening, by creating the barrier between fantasy and reality, so fantasy beings can still exist here. A character can enter here by losing its existence in the Outside World, of course, but not everyone is going to enter by the same premise.

As I explained in the OP, the barrier that Yukari created that defines truth and fiction extends across the whole world. In fact, in WaHH, Marisa mentions that even when they went to the Lunar Capital, they were still within the confines of the barrier (she even admits she's never been to the outside world despite going to virtually every other location in the cosmology at this point, further suggesting that the truth-fiction barrier encompasses everything). We know that this is specifically about Yukari's barrier, as Reimu mentions that it's her barrier, and it's not the Hakurei Barrier as that is described as the barrier that encloses the physical 'space' of Gensokyo, which means either 'Gensokyo' in the context of the Hakurei Barrier is in fact referring to all non-outside world locations, or the specific barrier mentioned in WaHH is the second barrier that defines truth. Either way, the idea that non-existence is limited to the island-sized space of Gensokyo is incorrect. So there's no need for characters from the Lunar Capital or whatever to become non-existent upon entering Gensokyo, because the barrier that makes things non-existent to begin with has already affected them.

Well, I never said it only encompasses the island. I'm saying that the barrier encompasses Gensokyo as a whole. Regardless, this doesn't really disproves my points at all.