Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e ability removal thread

[Vzearr]

Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e ability removal thread:​

[3/???]​

Ayanokouji:​

Resistance to Limited Fear Inducement​

Ayanokouji is given this resistance through this:​

It was mentioned that his emotions stopped working, this should likely be the reasons why his older self was unaffected by Ryuuen's glare that stunned Housen Kazuomi. It was mentioned that White Room subjects were given training to not feel emotions like fear.​

1. Ryuuen's glare is social influencing, not fear inducement, you wouldn't get resistance to fear inducement for resisting a naturally scary glare. Making someone feel confused for an instant because you glared at them whilst getting hit does not qualify for fear inducement.
2. His emotions didn't stop working, he still has emotions, just much less than a normal human.
3. Getting training to not feel emotions like fear doesn't mean you can't feel fear, it also doesn't mean you're resistant to fear hax, which is done via supernatural means, something Kouji has never seen.​

Resistance to Pain Manipulation​

Ayanokouji is given this ability through this:​

Despite being at age four and being hit by trained martial artists and adults, Ayanokoji as well as other students needed to endure cruel beatings from instructors to the point it was normal and thinking about it was a waste of time, The white room gave Yuki physical paralysis, Trauma and, Depression, The white room also gave Heart/Panic attacks to those less resistance to the hellish training, The White Room also implied that kids have died in the White Room​

This is just good endurance, nothing suggests that he's immune to pain manipulation.​

Fear Inducement​

Ayanokouji is given this ability through this:​

(Caused Karuizawa and Hirata to spill their secrets by inducing fear in them, Hirata said that Ayanokouji's eyes showed a darkness which was so dark that it was terrifying. Stunned Nagumo with his killing intent)​

1. The first scan is social influencing​

Instigating Fear: Characters who can in some way or the other, instigate fear and affect the thinking or confidence of another person in their verse​

Nothing suggests this is supernatural. Supporters have bought up that Ayanokouji is below Karuizawa in terms of classroom hierarchy (iirc) which justifies it, however, you can be above someone in terms of literally everything but still be scared by their eyes, its a natural thing.

2. This scan is also social influencing. Anyway, I wouldn't say that he stunned Nagumo as he literally reacted with an "Urgh?!", he just scared him, which would be instigating fear. By no means is this fear manipulation.
​

White Room Training:​

Fifth-Generation (White Room Difficulty Level 4)​

Limited Resistance to Fear Inducement​

Students get this ability with the following justification:​

It was mentioned that White Room subjects were given training to not feel emotions like fear. [15]Should likely be unaffected by Ryueen's glare [16]due to the white room environment​

1. Getting training to not feel emotions like fear doesn't lead to the conclusion that you don't feel fear.
2. This justification relies on the possibility that they're resistant to Ryueen's glare even though they've never encountered it.​

Fourth-Generation (White Room Difficulty Level 10)​

Limited Durability Negation​

Students get this ability with the following justification:​

Throat Strike - Getting punched in the throat may damage internal structures, such as the voice box, the airway, or blood vessels[21], Ayanokouji used this against[22] Albert where it was stated that normal punches were not that effective against him even when Ayanokouji hitting him in the gut[23] which is also a pressure point​

This ability relies on the possibility that a pressure point hit may damage internal structures, but that doesn't grant you this ability, like, I can also possibly damage my friends voice box, doesn't mean I have durability negation. Ayanokouji could also damage Albert before, but dealt a bit more with his throat strike and gut punch. So I wouldn't say he can damage a target regardless of their durability, since he could already damage Albert.​

Limited Pain Manipulation and Limited Status Effect Inducement​

Students get this ability with the following justification:​

Solar Plexus Strike - Located between the chest and the nombril, receiving a hit on the solar plexus is really painful and might stop your attacker from breathing for a few seconds. This effect is amplified when you hit him while he is breathing in[25], Ayanokouji was planning to hit Albert in this area[26], Nasal Pole Strike - An injury to your nose could also cause a concussion, Headache and Confusion[27] also made Tsukishiro forcefully tear up effectively obscuring his vision[28]​

What I said above applies to this. The ability relies on the possibility that something could happen.​

Limited Sleep Manipulation​

Students get this ability with the following justification:​

Carotid Strike - The carotid slap/strike is a great self-defense technique, which is very useful in self-defense and close-range situations. When executed correctly, the so-called “Okinawan slap“, “carotid strike” or “carotid slap” will cause the assailant to have a sudden loss of oxygen to the brain, followed by fainting and collapse. This self-defense technique aims to strike the carotid sinus, which is located on either side of the assailant’s neck, slightly behind the jaw. If we may delve into human anatomy for a minute: the carotid sinus is the area at which the common carotid artery separates into the internal and external carotid arteries. The carotid sinus contains numerous baroreceptors which act to regulate our blood pressure[29], Ayanokouji used this to knock Ibuki out with 1 hit[30]​

Knocking somebody out isn't sleep manipulation.​

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e ability removal thread:​

[3/???]​

Ayanokouji:​

Resistance to Limited Fear Inducement​

Ayanokouji is given this resistance through this:

1. Ryuuen's glare is social influencing, not fear inducement, you wouldn't get resistance to fear inducement for resisting a naturally scary glare. Making someone feel confused for an instant because you glared at them whilst getting hit does not qualify for fear inducement.
2. His emotions didn't stop working, he still has emotions, just much less than a normal human.
3. Getting training to not feel emotions like fear doesn't mean you can't feel fear, it also doesn't mean you're resistant to fear hax, which is done via supernatural means, something Kouji has never seen.​

All of this was already debated and you are just bringing the same arguments

Resistance to Pain Manipulation​

Ayanokouji is given this ability through this:

This is just good endurance, nothing suggests that he's immune to pain manipulation.​

Same arguments

Fear Inducement​

Ayanokouji is given this ability through this:

1. The first scan is social influencing

Nothing suggests this is supernatural. Supporters have bought up that Ayanokouji is below Karuizawa in terms of classroom hierarchy (iirc) which justifies it, however, you can be above someone in terms of literally everything but still be scared by their eyes, its a natural thing.

2. This scan is also social influencing. Anyway, I wouldn't say that he stunned Nagumo as he literally reacted with an "Urgh?!", he just scared him, which would be instigating fear. By no means is this fear manipulation.
​

Same arguments which Reggor already explained and you still are not bringing anything new

White Room Training:​

Fifth-Generation (White Room Difficulty Level 4)​

Limited Resistance to Fear Inducement​

Students get this ability with the following justification:

1. Getting training to not feel emotions like fear doesn't lead to the conclusion that you don't feel fear.
2. This justification relies on the possibility that they're resistant to Ryueen's glare even though they've never encountered it.​

Same here

Fourth-Generation (White Room Difficulty Level 10)​

Limited Durability Negation​

Students get this ability with the following justification:

This ability relies on the possibility that a pressure point hit may damage internal structures, but that doesn't grant you this ability, like, I can also possibly damage my friends voice box, doesn't mean I have durability negation.​

"Internal structures"

Limited Pain Manipulation and Limited Status Effect Inducement​

Students get this ability with the following justification:

What I said above applies to this. The ability relies on the possibility that something could happen.​

Koji hit the Nasal pole on Tsukishiro expecifically to make him tear up effectively blind his vision which is status inducement

Solar plexus also causes alot of pain which is literally in the pressure point section and leads to pain manipulation and also causes the user to be unable to breath which is also status inducement

Limited Sleep Manipulation​

Students get this ability with the following justification:

Knocking somebody out isn't sleep manipulation.​

If you read the explanation, You will notice that hitting the carotid will make your oxygen unable to travel to the brain ceasing all functions and make you collapse and faint

For these reasons, I disagree

 

[Vzearr]

"Internal structures"

This ability relies on the possibility that a pressure point hit may damage internal structures, but that doesn't grant you this ability, like, I can also possibly damage my friends voice box, doesn't mean I have durability negation.

No one inverse has damaged internal structures, therefore you cannot apply the ability to them.

Koji hit the Nasal pole on Tsukishiro expecifically to make him tear up effectively blind his vision which is status inducement

Beating somebody to the point of making them cry is status effect inducement?

Solar plexus also causes alot of pain which is literally in the pressure point section and leads to pain manipulation and also causes the user to be unable to breath which is also status inducement

Interesting. No this isn't status effect inducement, you get status effect inducement from inflicting ailments on somebody, not from making them unable to breath with a punch.

If you read the explanation, You will notice that hitting the carotid will make your oxygen unable to travel to the brain ceasing all functions and make you collapse and faint

If you read the sleep manipulation page, you would notice that knocking somebody out isn't sleep manipulation.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

No one inverse has damaged internal structures, therefore you cannot apply the ability to them.

Attacking the throat means you are attacking the internal structures too

Beating somebody to the point of making them cry is status effect inducement?

You missed the point, Koji is legit attacking SPECIFICALLY the Nasal Pole to make Tsukishiro tear up, Koji even explains that, Read

Interesting. No this isn't status effect inducement, you get status effect inducement from inflicting ailments on somebody, not from making them unable to breath with a punch.

You are making someone incapable of breathing, This is legit status inducement

If you read the sleep manipulation page, you would notice that knocking somebody out isn't sleep manipulation.

If you read the ability, You will know that you are sucking the oxygen out of the opponents brain making them faint and collapse in 1 hit '-'

 

[Vzearr]

Attacking the throat means you are attacking the internal structures too

Sure I guess? But it still doesn't fall under durability negation as Albert tanks his throat strike (I believe).

The ability that allows users to damage the target, regardless of their durability. In particular, it enables causing serious damage to an opponent, even with the user's lack of comparable or greater attack potency.

Ayanokouji could damage Albert before, but dealt a bit more with his throat strike. So I wouldn't say he can damage a target regardless of their durability, since he could already damage Albert.

You missed the point, Koji is legit attacking SPECIFICALLY the Nasal Pole to make Tsukishiro tear up, Koji even explains that, Read'

So?

You are making someone incapable of breathing, This is legit status inducement

Not according to the definition.

If you read the ability, You will know that you are sucking the oxygen out of the opponents brain making them faint and collapse in 1 hit '-'

Still not sleep manipulation.

 

[Dinozxd]

Following.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything looks logical, I fully agree and support this downgrade and CRT.

 

[Hiiilt]

Resistance to Pain Manipulation​

Ayanokouji is given this ability through this:

This is just good endurance, nothing suggests that he's immune to pain manipulation.​

idk if something changed but there was a thread abt characters gaining resistance to pain manip for stuff like that and everyone seemed to agree that it's just a feat of endurance/supernatural willpower

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

All of this was already debated and you are just bringing the same arguments

Same arguments

Same arguments which Reggor already explained and you still are not bringing anything new

Same here

Can you cite the thread where this was discussed?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Can you cite the thread where this was discussed?

This one iirc

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokoji's abilities organization and additions CRT - Part 3

This will be for organizing Ayanokoji's abilities as there is alot of misunderstandings regarding his abilities This was made with the help of @RoggerReggor 1st Key; 2nd Key; 3rd Key; Staff votes; Ayanokoji Kiyotaka (Kid) Staff Agrees - DarkDragonMedeus, Qawsedf234 Staff Disagress...

vsbattles.com

 

[Vzearr]

This one iirc

Classroom Of The Elite - Ayanokoji's abilities organization and additions CRT - Part 3

This will be for organizing Ayanokoji's abilities as there is alot of misunderstandings regarding his abilities This was made with the help of @RoggerReggor 1st Key; 2nd Key; 3rd Key; Staff votes; Ayanokoji Kiyotaka (Kid) Staff Agrees - DarkDragonMedeus, Qawsedf234 Staff Disagress...

vsbattles.com

When you read this, ignore my behaviour, it was pretty out of order, although it was from 6 months ago, my apologies.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234

As the staff that accepted some of these abilities before, can you take a look at this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

As the staff that accepted some of these abilities before, can you take a look at this?

Reading the counter arguments, everything other than the pressure point stuff makes sense to me. So I've changed my mind and agree with removing those abilities.

For the pressure points afaik that's still limited durability negation barring an anti-feat.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Reading the counter arguments, everything other than the pressure point stuff makes sense to me. So I've changed my mind and agree with removing those abilities.

For the pressure points afaik that's still limited durability negation barring an anti-feat.

Thank you for your help

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I agree with the changes, especially removing Durability Negation. Pressure points are 100% effected by durability, Ayano can't hurt Superman with a throat punch, in order to harm the internal organs requires you to generate enough energy to actually harm the throat, which for a very durable opponent, won't happen.

The only thing I disagree with is removing limited Sleep Manipulation. The carotid strike works by tricking the body into thinking that it's blood pressure is too high, making your blood pressure drop significantly, causing you to black out. Because it works via a vulnerability in human biology, I'd say he is deserving of it, as it's not just simple knocking out, it's messing with the persons blood pressure & forces them to go to sleep

 

[Vzearr]

The only thing I disagree with is removing limited Sleep Manipulation. The carotid strike works by tricking the body into thinking that it's blood pressure is too high, making your blood pressure drop significantly, causing you to black out. Because it works via a vulnerability in human biology, I'd say he is deserving of it, as it's not just simple knocking out, it's messing with the persons blood pressure & forces them to go to sleep

Sleep and losing consciousness are different things. You don't "fall asleep" after being hit in the carotid per se as sleeping occurs when your consciousness is mostly suspended, loss of consciousness (which is what happens when you get hit in the carotid I believe) means its entirely suspended, you won't wake up if someone pushes you or screams in your ear.

 

[Dinozxd]

I personally agree with Qawsed's evaluation.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Sleep and losing consciousness are different things. You don't "fall asleep" after being hit in the carotid per se as sleeping occurs when your consciousness is mostly suspended, loss of consciousness (which is what happens when you get hit in the carotid I believe) means its entirely suspended, you won't wake up if someone pushes you or screams in your ear.

With that logic, then I'm fine with removing sleep manipulation, though there should probably be a note on the pressure points section of his hacks that Ayano does have a pressure point that can cause people to black out

 

[RoggerReggor]

I agree with everything except for Fear Inducement, though my arguments happen to be the same, it's not simply based on that Kiyotaka possesses a lower-class hierarchy, but due to how badly he influences Kei Karuizawa. Kiyotaka ultimately possesses the eyes which can help him to have manipulate other people. However, to summarize the feat and to show how bad of a fully justified feat it is, I think I will provide the context and the stuff for like the one last and the final time, also, to mention, we have debated this for like 3 times already, 2 times in threads meant for it, and 1 time for when it wasn't.

Truthfully, he probably did want to reveal his innermost thoughts. But he couldn't do that, which was why I was here right now. Talk. Now, I told him with my eyes, encouraging him so powerfully that I was almost threatening him.

When he saw the look in my eyes, he seemed overcome by fear.

"I finally understand the real reason Karuizawa-san revealed everything about herself to you, Ayanokouji-kun. When I saw your eyes... Just now, when you made me see them. There's a deep darkness there. So dark it's terrifying..." said Hirata.

The darkness within Hirata was being eroded. By me. He wasn't just waiting around for death to find him he was begging to be saved, with each passing day. That was why he was grasping the black thread of salvation dangling before him. So that he could crawl out of hell.

(Year 1 Volume 11)

Now, to understand this, there are two people whom he manipulated and caused them to spill their secrets.

1. Kei Karuizawa: In Year 1 Volume 5, Kei Karuizawa's traces of backstory are revealed. It has been revealed that in her school, she was bullied and this negatively affected her. This caused her to have a dark past attached to her forever. It is revealed that she was dating Hirata Yosuke, a classmate of her who knew her before she applied to the school. Their relationship was solely due to her trying to be safe from others, and Hirata had promised to save her in difficult situations. So, their relationship happened to be a fake one. This was hidden from the students around them, and Kei was highly insecure about her past. After having secured a very high position and reputation in her class, it had become important for her to be involved in hiding her secrets. She would normally never reveal her past.

2. Hirata Yosuke: In Year 1 Volume 10, Hirata Yosuke is shown to have become very violent after a classmate is expelled due to some politics happening in the class. This happens to be a topic of his personal reasons attached to him. In his past, he noticed a boy who was being bullied and this made him be incredibly careful about him. Only the thing which he was most irritated by was that he couldn't approach that boy, and the boy ultimately gave up on his own life. This ate him from inside. Hirata was also trying to hide his own secrets.

Now, it would be totally ridiculous if you were to say that someone could get someone to reveal their darkest secrets to someone by just looking into their eyes. It's to the point of degree where you approach a VSBW mod, look into their eyes, and have them accept your threads. This is completely NOT NORMAL, neither natural. Someone was trying to hide their secrets. If you were to say that Kei is just not resilient enough and can be socially influenced to reveal her secrets, it is not that. In Year 1 Volume 7, she never gave up on Kiyotaka's identity, despite being physically tortured, thrown around, splashed with cold water in a very cold weather, and being threatened with the risk of having her expelled or drop out of the school (by Ryuuen). This is quite incomparable to what damage Kiyotaka did to Kei. Like sure, Kiyotaka is a way better manipulator than Ryuuen, but manipulation is not just going in and telling some words and have someone do anything. It's quite clear that Kiyotaka wasn't filling her ears.

Saying that it is normal is like saying that if some characters were to throw fire from their hands and throw it, it would be natural and normal until it was declared supernatural. The context and everything say that it's not normal.

As someone who helped Zetsu with the Social Influencing page, and that, Zetsu is quite literally someone who proposed for the Social Influencing page, Fear Instigating is not even what happens in this case. Fear Instigating is taking advantage of an insecurity of weakness of a character which is attached to their psychology, having them get into a difficult situation related to that weakness and then taking it and manipulating that person or causing them to feel fear by asserting dominance and stuff. From Year 1 Volume 7, it's quite clear that Kei was ultimately not revealing secrets about stuff when she was put in a situation way worse than what Kiyotaka did, and it would be non-sensible for Kei to suddenly forget that she was resilient to social influencing on a higher level and leave herself vulnerable to something of lesser degree.

Now, Hirata one is not normal as well. The text itself says that this dude was making someone perceive his darkness and have an aura which made him influence fear in someone and cause them to reveal their secrets. The entire argument in the thread is that until Kiyotaka were to mention that "Oh hey, my ability is supernatural, it would be bad to give him the ability.".

Another feat,

"Huh? What are you-?"
I looked right into Nagumo's eyes with all the killing intent I could muster.
"Huh?!"
"I told you to withdraw. Do you understand?" I told him sternly. Nagumo quickly shot upright, jumping back to his feet, as if to refuse to recognize the fear that I had instilled within him.

(Year 2 Volume 4)

In this feat, Kiyotaka uses the same ability, tries to induce fear in Nagumo.

When he does it, he is able to have Nagumo afraid for a moment, or at least feel something, as Nagumo is just randomly questioning stuff and saying "Huh? What are you-?", he also implies that he was going to use it to have him stay at one place for a long time and just sit on the ground

Though yes, Nagumo does happen to be able to resist it. Another thing is that Kiyotaka was ultimately shocked as well.

Willpower, was it? He was trying to rouse himself as student council president and shake off the intimidation he felt from me.

He also begins to question how Nagumo pulled it off.

The reason why the positions of Kei and Hirata were mentioned was simply due to Kiyotaka trying to use Nagumo's higher position in school politics to reason how he avoided the inducement. Second thing is that it was not the main argument, and not something to be milked. I simply used it and argued for it because I had somehow predicted that Nagumo having a higher position being a reason of avoiding would ultimately make Kiyotaka's ability to be argued for only working against people who happen to be socially less capable and have a lesser social position, it never was, and never will be a good reason for him to have the ability.

Also, Zetsu does happen to be planning to give Nagumo a resistance to the said ability for pulling off the feat as well, as much as I know from him, which I also agree with.

Spoiler: TL;DR for why I think Fear Inducement is valid.

TL;DR:

1. Kiyotaka's ability isn't normal. He walked up to Karuizawa, sensed that she was hiding something, and ultimately caused her to reveal the secrets which could have ultimately damaged her own self. He also did the same with Hirata. It's like you walk up to someone, sense that they have money, and cause them to reveal their vault password.
2. The primary argument isn't that Kei and Hirata possess a higher position, it's to simply show that Kiyotaka can induce fear in characters with higher social status and position than him, as one could argue by using Nagumo's example and say that Kiyotaka said that Nagumo resisted the inducement by just having a higher position than him. This argument is fundamentally wrong in itself, Kiyotaka just gave a possibility of Nagumo shaking off the inducement by rousing up as the Student Council President, he wasn't sure of it himself. And yes, the idea of Kiyotaka being able to induce fear in someone like Kei or Hirata who possessed much higher social position than him at the time was just to illustrate that he can induce fear in people having higher social status than him.
3. The fear inducement is an active ability, and not related to social influencing, which would be him playing with words, or torturing Kei. Kei has shown resilience to tortures worse than what Kiyotaka used, and it doesn't make sense for her to give out a secret much important than what she would have to reveal against a greater psychological damage.

About the other stuff, I agree, I don't happen to have any solid arguments against, and the stuff seems believable enough.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, Kiyotaka doesn't have naturally intimidating eyes in himself. Mei in Volume 9 mentioned that Kiyotaka was just hard to approach, but he was friendly and didn't give a very bad vibe. Characters like Ichinose can directly look into his eyes and not be afraid of him, they even feel safe around him. Karuizawa, though a victim and affected by his Fear Inducement in Year 1 Volume 5, she also feels safe around him, and IS LITERALLY DATING KIYOTAKA right now.

 

[Dinozxd]

Now, to understand this, there are two people whom he manipulated and caused them to spill their secrets.

1. Kei Karuizawa: In Year 1 Volume 5, Kei Karuizawa's traces of backstory are revealed. It has been revealed that in her school, she was bullied and this negatively affected her. This caused her to have a dark past attached to her forever. It is revealed that she was dating Hirata Yosuke, a classmate of her who knew her before she applied to the school. Their relationship was solely due to her trying to be safe from others, and Hirata had promised to save her in difficult situations. So, their relationship happened to be a fake one. This was hidden from the students around them, and Kei was highly insecure about her past. After having secured a very high position and reputation in her class, it had become important for her to be involved in hiding her secrets. She would normally never reveal her past.

2. Hirata Yosuke: In Year 1 Volume 10, Hirata Yosuke is shown to have become very violent after a classmate is expelled due to some politics happening in the class. This happens to be a topic of his personal reasons attached to him. In his past, he noticed a boy who was being bullied and this made him be incredibly careful about him. Only the thing which he was most irritated by was that he couldn't approach that boy, and the boy ultimately gave up on his own life. This ate him from inside. Hirata was also trying to hide his own secrets.

Now, it would be totally ridiculous if you were to say that someone could get someone to reveal their darkest secrets to someone by just looking into their eyes. It's to the point of degree where you approach a VSBW mod, look into their eyes, and have them accept your threads. This is completely NOT NORMAL, neither natural. Someone was trying to hide their secrets. If you were to say that Kei is just not resilient enough and can be socially influenced to reveal her secrets, it is not that. In Year 1 Volume 7, she never gave up on Kiyotaka's identity, despite being physically tortured, thrown around, splashed with cold water in a very cold weather, and being threatened with the risk of having her expelled or drop out of the school (by Ryuuen). This is quite incomparable to what damage Kiyotaka did to Kei. Like sure, Kiyotaka is a way better manipulator than Ryuuen, but manipulation is not just going in and telling some words and have someone do anything. It's quite clear that Kiyotaka wasn't filling her ears.

Saying that it is normal is like saying that if some characters were to throw fire from their hands and throw it, it would be natural and normal until it was declared supernatural. The context and everything say that it's not normal.

As someone who helped Zetsu with the Social Influencing page, and that, Zetsu is quite literally someone who proposed for the Social Influencing page, Fear Instigating is not even what happens in this case. Fear Instigating is taking advantage of an insecurity of weakness of a character which is attached to their psychology, having them get into a difficult situation related to that weakness and then taking it and manipulating that person or causing them to feel fear by asserting dominance and stuff. From Year 1 Volume 7, it's quite clear that Kei was ultimately not revealing secrets about stuff when she was put in a situation way worse than what Kiyotaka did, and it would be non-sensible for Kei to suddenly forget that she was resilient to social influencing on a higher level and leave herself vulnerable to something of lesser degree.

Now, Hirata one is not normal as well. The text itself says that this dude was making someone perceive his darkness and have an aura which made him influence fear in someone and cause them to reveal their secrets. The entire argument in the thread is that until Kiyotaka were to mention that "Oh hey, my ability is supernatural, it would be bad to give him the ability.".

Now this whole argument derives from "Ayanokouji's Intimidiation is so good, that it can't be natural", except for the fact that there are literally tens of social influencers that visually perform much better feats than Koji, even though they don't use any superpowers, curses, special abilities etc.

"Natural" in this context does not mean "not performable irl", "natural" in this context means it is achieved via means that are explainable with things that are natural. Koji making Hirata and Kei, two characters with good willpower, reveal their secrets is completely explainable via using their emotions and weaknesses (which Koji pretty much states).

It's pretty much like how a character paralysing another character with, let's say a "monster like gaze" does not qualify for Fear Manipulation, as the source of the fear isn't some kind of superpower, curse, special ability or some kind of supernatural aura, even though the feat itself is pretty much not performable irl.

In this feat, Kiyotaka uses the same ability, tries to induce fear in Nagumo.

When he does it, he is able to have Nagumo afraid for a moment, or at least feel something, as Nagumo is just randomly questioning stuff and saying "Huh? What are you-?", he also implies that he was going to use it to have him stay at one place for a long time and just sit on the ground

Though yes, Nagumo does happen to be able to resist it. Another thing is that Kiyotaka was ultimately shocked as well.

He also begins to question how Nagumo pulled it off.

Willpower, was it? He was trying to rouse himself as student council president and shake off the intimidation he felt from me.

The scan itself says that it was intimidation, so I don't really get how this is Fear Hax to be honest.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Now this whole argument derives from "Ayanokouji's Intimidiation is so good, that it can't be natural", except for the fact that there are literally tens of social influencers that visually perform much better feats than Koji, even though they don't use any superpowers, curses, special abilities etc.

Ok, so just because you happen to think that some characters can possibly have greater social influencing than Kiyotaka, that would mean that it makes this feat unapplicable.

First of all, I haven't watched Bleach fully, and from what I asked from my friend, Aizen has no such feats of instigating fear.
I have watched OPM, and King has no such feats either. In fact, King is like not even a quantifiable outsmarting genius.
Johan and Light are applicable, but they come under the Social Influencing genre, and Light has no Social Influencing feats such as intimidation, and neither does Johan except for getting Richard afraid after exposing his corruption or getting Tenma afraid on his way to commit crime.

And if you want to, I can ultimately even be confident in debating how Kiyotaka is a better social influencer than King and Light Yagami, and prove you wrong on this. Kiyotaka takes like 5 of the categories of Social Influencing against Light, and badly stomps King on this. Well, that would be unrelated, but your basic belief on this is about how YOU THINK that some characters have better Social Influencing than Kiyotaka, and because they exist, Kiyotaka's feat is inapplicable. And most of these characters have feats under what I already mentioned:

As someone who helped Zetsu with the Social Influencing page, and that, Zetsu is quite literally someone who proposed for the Social Influencing page, Fear Instigating is not even what happens in this case. Fear Instigating is taking advantage of an insecurity of weakness of a character which is attached to their psychology, having them get into a difficult situation related to that weakness and then taking it and manipulating that person or causing them to feel fear by asserting dominance and stuff.

So, read my reply again, I proved how his ability isn't just this, and he didn't live to get Kei and Hirata into a psychological weakness of their own, but he himself mentioned how he used his "darkness", which is already something quite unreal for a person IRL to possess.

"Natural" in this context does not mean "not performable irl", "natural" in this context means it is achieved via means that are explainable with things that are natural. Koji making Hirata and Kei, two characters with good willpower, reveal their secrets is completely explainable via using their emotions and weaknesses (which Koji pretty much states).

He stated his emotional understanding, he never explained what his so-called darkness was. And you are yet to prove how it is natural to just go against some character and make them spill their secrets by just looking into their eyes. Do you even know what Kiyotaka did to Kei and how Kei has basically kept her mouth shut in a difficult situation? I QUITE LITERALLY mentioned that into my reply.

So, he never stated using their emotions and weaknesses, and if it was the case, then Ryuuen did something very similar to his own thing, and nothing really slipped from Kei's mouth, you are yet to prove Kei's functioning differently at that point too.

It's pretty much like how a character paralysing another character with, let's say a "monster like gaze" does not qualify for Fear Manipulation, as the source of the fear isn't some kind of superpower, curse, special ability or some kind of supernatural aura, even though the feat itself is pretty much not performable irl.

Having a monster-like gaze and being able to paralyze another character is a supernatural ability in itself, it can count as Fear Inducement depending on cases and mostly Paralysis Inducement.

The scan itself says that it was intimidation, so I don't really get how this is Fear Hax to be honest.

Intimidation basically means "cause someone to feel fear", it really isn't a primarily natural thing to begin with. There can be "supernatural intimidation", to say.

Just answer my one question, why does it make sense for Kei to spill her secrets just randomly to a person who she tried to hurt before (she tried to slap him before, and even showed her own hate) and be in total denial against them by just some character using the darkness in their eyes in like the minute of their conversation?

That's like saying it is completely normal for you to go against a billionaire and get them to reveal their bank password by showing them your eyes. I expect you to regard this as "yeah, completely normal" just to make an argument though.

 

[Dinozxd]

Ok, so just because you happen to think that some characters can possibly have greater social influencing than Kiyotaka, that would mean that it makes this feat unapplicable.

That is not what I said at all.

First of all, I haven't watched Bleach fully, and from what I asked from my friend, Aizen has no such feats of instigating fear.

I just meant Social Influencing feats as a whole.

I have watched OPM, and King has no such feats either. In fact, King is like not even a quantifiable outsmarting genius.

His own profile has this feat in it, which imo qualifies for Instigating fear.

Well, that would be unrelated

Yes it really would.

but your basic belief on this is about how YOU THINK that some characters have better Social Influencing than Kiyotaka, and because they exist, Kiyotaka's feat is inapplicable. And most of these characters have feats under what I already mentioned:

That is again not what I meant here. I tried to show how characters can use Social Influencing to perform feats that are impossible to perform irl, via natural means.

So, read my reply again, I proved how his ability isn't just this, and he didn't live to get Kei and Hirata into a psychological weakness of their own, but he himself mentioned how he used his "darkness", which is already something quite unreal for a person IRL to possess.

That "darkness" requires context for it to become supernatural. Things that are natural can be worded in a way of sounding supernatural in fiction, even though they aren't supernatural at all. Like, a commentator stating that a boxer having an "explosive punch" is just exaggerating the boxer's punching strength which is obviously high, but having really good punching strength is completely natural. The commentators statement doesn't actually mean that the boxer can explode shit with punches, which would be supernatural.

Also, I don't see the scan of Koji inducing fear in Kei. Do you mind sharing that scan please?

He stated his emotional understanding, he never explained what his so-called darkness was. And you are yet to prove how it is natural to just go against some character and make them spill their secrets by just looking into their eyes. Do you even know what Kiyotaka did to Kei and how Kei has basically kept her mouth shut in a difficult situation? I QUITE LITERALLY mentioned that into my reply.

I'm not really sure if we're looking at the same scan rn.

Truthfully he probably did want to reveal his innermost thoughts, but he couldn't do that, which was why I was here right now. Talk. now. I told him with my eyes, encouraging so powerfully that I was almost threatning him.

He wasn't just waiting around for death to find him. He was begging to be saved., with each passing day.

It's obvious that Hirata is weak mentally here. The "darkness" in Koji's eyes has no reason to be supernatural in any way.

Like I said, this is just a character performing a highly unrealistic feat via natural means.

then Ryuuen did something very similar to his own thing, and nothing really slipped from Kei's mouth, you are yet to prove Kei's functioning differently at that point too.

That just makes Ayanokouji's gaze more terrifying than Ryuuen's tortures (which aren't really that brutal of a torture, per say. An irl person can very likely endure cold water getting poured on them in a cold enviroment), which doesn't prove that Ayanokouji's way of inducing fear is supernatural, as Ryuuen's torture isn't supernatural either.

Having a monster-like gaze and being able to paralyze another character is a supernatural ability in itself, it can count as Fear Inducement depending on cases and mostly Paralysis Inducement.

Not really. Cause of the fear is perfectly natural, just the effect of the fear isn't performable irl.

Intimidation basically means "cause someone to feel fear", it really isn't a primarily natural thing to begin with. There can be "supernatural intimidation", to say.

It is causing someone to feel fear through natural means. There's also nothing in the scan that implies that Ayanokouji did it with a supernatural cause.

Just answer my one question, why does it make sense for Kei to spill her secrets just randomly to a person who she tried to hurt before (she tried to slap him before, and even showed her own hate) and be in total denial against them by just some character using the darkness in their eyes in like the minute of their conversation?

Because the cause of the fear is natural?

That's like saying it is completely normal for you to go against a billionaire and get them to reveal their bank password by showing them your eyes. I expect you to regard this as "yeah, completely normal" just to make an argument though.

You don't get the point at all.

Let's go with your example here. Character A gazes at a billionare and makes them reveal their bank password. The outcome of the fear is highly hard to perform, though the cause of the fear is just a gaze, not some hax, superpower, supernatural curse, supernatural aura, etc.

 

[RoggerReggor]

That is not what I said at all.

Then what? You are basically going with the whataboutery philosophy as far as I can see..

I just meant Social Influencing feats as a whole.

What? Are you kidding me? So how are you even relating characters who don't have feats as such with Kiyotaka? Your basic stance was that these character possessed better Social Influencing (though it is debatable and the three of the characters you mentioned are not even that potent, and I don't know about Aizen but I trust my friend, and Light being greater than Aizen in general outsmarting and influencing is a common take in the smart characters community as well so I will take up on that and make that count as 3.

I have honestly lost the count of the number of times you try to compare Kiyotaka with other characters to do whataboutery and mess up badly. None of the characters you mentioned are surprisingly better than Kiyotaka at doing those feats. Johan is great and all but doesn't have any inducement feats except for the ones I already mentioned.

His own profile has this feat in it, which imo qualifies for Instigating fear.

This is seriously a very bad relation. Not only is King using his power to have that random feel fear, but also is using a psychological tactic of assuming the savior but revealing his true self.

Kiyotaka caused fear in Kei as well. Kei was afraid from the start. Learn what instigating fear really is:
1. Instigating fear in Kei's case: Kiyotaka approached Kei, and physically dominated her, even telling her that he might assault her as well (never done though). Kei was sweating heavily in this case, and was even very afraid, but she didn't reveal her own secrets.
2. Inducing fear in Kei's case: Kiyotaka used his darkness which ultimately eroded all the darkness out of Kei, and terrified her even further, and this made her reveal her secrets, and not the instigating fear (i.e. social influencing) which he did, because as shown, Kei is kind of resilient against tortures which are even more dangerous and threatening.

There you have it, the key for not confusing fear instigating with the inducement part from the feat which took place in Year 1 Volume 5.

That is again not what I meant here. I tried to show how characters can use Social Influencing to perform feats that are impossible to perform irl, via natural means.

No. Light, Johan, Aizen and even King performed feats are possible to perform IRL. Social Influencing is not a supernatural ability in itself. It is quite literally a skill and not a thing which can be acquired only supernaturally lmao. This is just wrong thinking.

That "darkness" requires context for it to become supernatural. Things that are natural can be worded in a way of sounding supernatural in fiction, even though they aren't supernatural at all. Like, a commentator stating that a boxer having an "explosive punch" is just exaggerating the boxer's punching strength which is obviously high, but having really good punching strength is completely natural. The commentators statement doesn't actually mean that the boxer can explode shit with punches, which would be supernatural.

Wrong comparison again. There's nothing to compare a boxer's punch with someone's words. While yes, COTE does happen to get flowery at many parts, Hirata himself mentioned that he felt that someone was messing up with his mind and making him reveal his secrets. Kiyotaka was legit messing up with Hirata's mind by doing quite literally nothing.

In fact, what's funny here is that unlike Kei's case where Kei was like in a bad situation and was naturally feeling fear from the start (but still, not to be confused with the fact that she still wasn't revealing her secret, and it was only due to Kiyotaka's glare). Kiyotaka and Hirata were legit having a buddy-buddy conversation, and Kiyotaka just caused him to do it lol.

In fact, in the anime, this is even more absurd, when you see that Hirata tells Kiyotaka, "You think I am going to tell you everything?", and Kiyotaka is like, "You will.", and then shots his ultimately glare which does it and Hirata is like, "Alright, I will. But those eyes are terrifying dude.".


Hirata knew that revealing that secret was ultimately going to do nothing good to him, and in this case, Hirata was also having a massive rebellious phase, so Kiyotaka just went up to a dude, got him to reveal his secrets by inducing fear in him, and that's what really happened. Given the context, there's nothing natural in this. Kiyotaka hasn't even got Hirata in a situation where he should feel fear in the first place.

Also, I don't see the scan of Koji inducing fear in Kei. Do you mind sharing that scan please?

It's an off-screen feat which would have taken place in Year 1 Volume 4, and fully later on in Year 1 Volume 6, Kei talked about it to Hirata as well, and Hirata mentioned it. Only in the anime, we see Kiyotaka's eyes from close, and Kei getting more impatient. Though yes, the anime never includes her revealing her backstory, and it is only revealed in the light novel where she talks to Kiyotaka.

I'm not really sure if we're looking at the same scan rn.


It's obvious that Hirata is weak mentally here. The "darkness" in Koji's eyes has no reason to be supernatural in any way.

Hirata is not mentally weak here. He was surrounded by sadness for being unable to protect his classmate like once again. If you say Hirata is mentally weak, then all of his backstory (shown quite literally in the same volume) is a straight fire to that. He has gone through a lot and all what is happening is Hirata being rebellious and angry with his classmates, because they couldn't cooperate and ultimately fall to the traps of expelling someone.

Like I said, this is just a character performing a highly unrealistic feat via natural means.

Things cannot be highly unrealistic and natural at the same time wth.

Unrealistic means "not real", and "real" is quite literally a synonym for "actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed" or "naturally existing", so this is just very wrong lmao.

That just makes Ayanokouji's gaze more terrifying than Ryuuen's tortures (which aren't really that brutal of a torture, per say. An irl person can very likely endure cold water getting poured on them in a cold enviroment), which doesn't prove that Ayanokouji's way of inducing fear is supernatural, as Ryuuen's torture isn't supernatural either.

Ryuuen wasn't just throwing cold water on Kei in a cold environment. He was threatening her expulsion, her image in real life, and was going to quite literally destroy her entire life lmao. This is just badly comparing what Ryuuen did and I know you like Ryuuen a lot, but protecting him and showing his actions as minor things is not okay.

Not really. Cause of the fear is perfectly natural, just the effect of the fear isn't performable irl.

Fear Inducement is an ability which is used to induce fear (which is a natural emotion) via things which cannot be performed IRL, or naturally not. And, effect is cause, both are not different things upon even vocabulary. So yes, thanks for defining Kiyotaka's ability as fear inducement yourself.
I am confused, are you debating for the fear or against the feat?

It is causing someone to feel fear through natural means. There's also nothing in the scan that implies that Ayanokouji did it with a supernatural cause.

This is just like saying, "Character A only threw fire from his arms, there's nothing in that feat which shows that the character is doing it via supernatural cause.". I mean, doing it is supernatural in itself. Kiyotaka doesn't need to go around and say, "Oh hey, my ability is supernatural.".

Because the cause of the fear is natural?

How is the cause of the fear being natural? He isn't psychologically manipulating her, he isn't dominating her with confidence to cause it (I mean, he did, but not for the part where he causes her to spill her secrets), but he is using his eyes of all the things to do it.

You don't get the point at all.

Let's go with your example here. Character A gazes at a billionare and makes them reveal their bank password. The outcome of the fear is highly hard to perform, though the cause of the fear is just a gaze, not some hax, superpower, supernatural curse, supernatural aura, etc.

Bruh, he's literally making someone see some darkness, and imagine things, have something messing with their mind, and cause them to ultimately do stuff. This is not conventional fear instigating in the first place. Fear instigating via a gaze involves a variety of factors such as using your position, power, confidence, or even the situation of a character at the time, and nothing was used by Kiyotaka as an excuse.

Allow me to ask the question, how do you define both fear instigating and fear inducement, and how do you differentiate between them? From what I can make, you are trying to argue that Social Influencing itself isn't IRL possible, which is wrong, and Social Influencing is literally a natural ability, performable IRL, and a realistic ability. You can also ask Zetsu about it, he's quite literally someone who caused improvements to the ability page, and also an expert for the ability, though you have had your personal disagreements with him from the start of the thread.

 

[Vzearr]

Things cannot be highly unrealistic and natural at the same time wth.

Unrealistic means "not real", and "real" is quite literally a synonym for "actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed" or "naturally existing", so this is just very wrong lmao.

This isn't true. Unrealistic means that something isn't realistic, realistic just means that something is a sensible and practical idea of what can be achieved, like, I can win a million dollars if I put my name into the lottery tomorrow, but that's unrealistic, still a thing that can happen though.

 

[Dinozxd]

What? Are you kidding me? So how are you even relating characters who don't have feats as such with Kiyotaka? Your basic stance was that these character possessed better Social Influencing

Eh, might've made a mistake there. But King's and Johan's feats about instigating fear on people are a sole example on how characters can induce fear with natural causes, even though the effects of the fear are almost impossible to perform irl.

hough it is debatable and the three of the characters you mentioned are not even that potent, and I don't know about Aizen but I trust my friend, and Light being greater than Aizen in general outsmarting and influencing is a common take in the smart characters community as well so I will take up on that and make that count as 3.

I don't care what buncha yt shorts content creators say about a character's traits so I think I'll be passing on that.

This is seriously a very bad relation. Not only is King using his power to have that random feel fear, but also is using a psychological tactic of assuming the savior but revealing his true self.

I was tryna show you how fear via natural causes can have an outcome that is almost impossible to perform irl. I'm not trying to compare Ayanokouji with him.

No. Light, Johan, Aizen and even King performed feats are possible to perform IRL. Social Influencing is not a supernatural ability in itself. It is quite literally a skill and not a thing which can be acquired only supernaturally lmao. This is just wrong thinking.

Killing a villian with only fear is pretty much impossible to do irl, but King did that via instigating fear from a natural cause (his "strenght"). I never said Social Influencing can be achieved via supernatural cause, I just said it can lead to something that's impossible to perform irl.

Wrong comparison again. There's nothing to compare a boxer's punch with someone's words.

I just gave that example to show flowery language. You don't have to compare everything I say with the feat as I'm just giving you an example.

In fact, what's funny here is that unlike Kei's case where Kei was like in a bad situation and was naturally feeling fear from the start (but still, not to be confused with the fact that she still wasn't revealing her secret, and it was only due to Kiyotaka's glare). Kiyotaka and Hirata were legit having a buddy-buddy conversation, and Kiyotaka just caused him to do it lol.

In fact, in the anime, this is even more absurd, when you see that Hirata tells Kiyotaka, "You think I am going to tell you everything?", and Kiyotaka is like, "You will.", and then shots his ultimately glare which does it and Hirata is like, "Alright, I will. But those eyes are terrifying dude.".

Hirata visually doesn't look really stable in the anime scene either so idk why you brought this up to prove your point really. The "You think I'm gonna tell you everything?" just sounds like an unstable defense mechanism, more than actually showing willpower and resistance. Ayanokouji even stated that Hirata was "begging to be saved" but couldn't do it, but still was in his limit so Ayanokouji had to encourage him with his eyes to make him reveal his secrets.

Hirata knew that revealing that secret was ultimately going to do nothing good to him, and in this case, Hirata was also having a massive rebellious phase, so Kiyotaka just went up to a dude, got him to reveal his secrets by inducing fear in him, and that's what really happened. Given the context, there's nothing natural in this. Kiyotaka hasn't even got Hirata in a situation where he should feel fear in the first place.

Doubling the anime scene with Ayanokouji's reading of Hirata's emotions, it's pretty much clear that Hirata isn't even in the right mind to resist Ayanokouji's glare.

Hirata is not mentally weak here. He was surrounded by sadness for being unable to protect his classmate like once again. If you say Hirata is mentally weak, then all of his backstory (shown quite literally in the same volume) is a straight fire to that. He has gone through a lot and all what is happening is Hirata being rebellious and angry with his classmates, because they couldn't cooperate and ultimately fall to the traps of expelling someone.

Yeah, thanks for agreeing with me that he isn't in the right mind. It's obvious that he's pretty much at his limit in terms of hanging on despite his trauma.

Things cannot be highly unrealistic and natural at the same time wth.

Unrealistic means "not real", and "real" is quite literally a synonym for "actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed" or "naturally existing", so this is just very wrong lmao.

Might've worded that one badly. What I meant is that this is a feat done via natural means, that is very hard to perform irl.

Ryuuen wasn't just throwing cold water on Kei in a cold environment. He was threatening her expulsion, her image in real life, and was going to quite literally destroy her entire life lmao. This is just badly comparing what Ryuuen did

Nice for you to just ignore anything else I said.

effect is cause, both are not different things upon even vocabulary.

That is not even slightly correct.

A cause is something that produces an event or condition; an effect is what results from an event or condition.

Like I said, the cause of the fear in this feat is completely natural, having a scary gaze, and even the outcome is pretty natural.

This is just like saying, "Character A only threw fire from his arms, there's nothing in that feat which shows that the character is doing it via supernatural cause.". I mean, doing it is supernatural in itself.

Damn scaring someone is as supernatural as fire manipulation nowadays

Kiyotaka doesn't need to go around and say, "Oh hey, my ability is supernatural.".

He actually needs to, or his ability has to be highly implied to be supernatural. I don't really see that in these scenes, at all.

How is the cause of the fear being natural? He isn't psychologically manipulating her, he isn't dominating her with confidence to cause it (I mean, he did, but not for the part where he causes her to spill her secrets), but he is using his eyes of all the things to do it.

Even the Social Influencing page you appearently helped making explains this:

having an appearance or a certain feature in their appearance which other characters in the verse perceive as creepy or scary and easily scared by it or driving other characters into situations where they are set to feel fear, etc.

Ayanokouji's gaze and eyes are stated to be scary more than one time. Having scary eyes is not ******* Fear Manipulation for god's sake.

Bruh, he's literally making someone see some darkness, and imagine things, have something messing with their mind, and cause them to ultimately do stuff. This is not conventional fear instigating in the first place. Fear instigating via a gaze involves a variety of factors such as using your position, power, confidence, or even the situation of a character at the time, and nothing was used by Kiyotaka as an excuse.

Already explained this above I think.

From what I can make, you are trying to argue that Social Influencing itself isn't IRL possible, which is wrong, and Social Influencing is literally a natural ability, performable IRL, and a realistic ability.

I never said this, it was just your own wrong interperation.

Allow me to ask the question, how do you define both fear instigating and fear inducement, and how do you differentiate between them?

Both Fear Inducement and Social Influencing have the same outcome; Causing fear, though the cause of the fear in Social Influencing is natural, and the word "natural" in my interperation refers to things that can exist irl; as a scary appearence, higher authority, overwhelming strength and demanour etc.

Fear Inducement causes on the other hand are things that can't exist irl. Things like a superpower that has something to do with fear, a hax ability, a state a character gets into via supernatural causes scaring other people, etc.

Now I'll give you two examples to help clear things:

1. Character A can make people visualize a monster with a glare and terrify them, where Character M has a curse (which are supernatural) inflicted on them which makes them release an aura that makes people visualize a monster and terrify them as well.

Character A qualifies for Instigating fear, Character M qualifies Fear Manipulation, even though the outcomes of the fear between the two are the same.

2. Character A can make someone absouletely terrified for their life with a glare, Character B has a special superpower which they can use to induce fear in other people, although it just makes people slightly uncomfortable than normal.

Character A qualifies for Instigating fear where Character B qualifies for Fear Manipulation, even though the outcome of Character A's fear is objectively superior to Character B.

 

[RoggerReggor]

This isn't true. Unrealistic means that something isn't realistic, realistic just means that something is a sensible and practical idea of what can be achieved, like, I can win a million dollars if I put my name into the lottery tomorrow, but that's unrealistic, still a thing that can happen though.

ChatGPT regards usage of both the words as generally contradictory and contextually dependent as well.

Spoiler: nerdy stuff

(ChatGPT response)
Using the words "unrealistic" and "natural" to describe the same thing would generally be contradictory or at least confusing in most contexts. Here’s why:

1. Meaning Contrast:
- Unrealistic: This typically implies something that does not conform to reality or is improbable. It suggests that the thing in question doesn't happen or exist in the natural order of things.
- Natural: This usually refers to something that occurs in nature, conforms to natural laws, or is innate and inherent.

2. Contextual Use:
- "Unrealistic" is often used to critique ideas, plans, or depictions that seem impractical or unlikely to happen in real life.
- "Natural" is used to describe phenomena, characteristics, or processes that are expected, intrinsic, or occurring without human intervention.

3. Examples of Contradiction:
- Describing a painting as "unrealistic" suggests it doesn’t accurately portray real-life scenes or proportions.
- Describing the same painting as "natural" would imply it captures the essence of reality or nature.

4. Semantic Clash:
- The words "unrealistic" and "natural" have opposite connotations, leading to confusion if used together or interchangeably.

In summary, while language can be flexible and context-dependent, using "unrealistic" and "natural" to describe the same thing would generally be considered contradictory. They imply fundamentally different perspectives on whether something aligns with reality or nature. It's crucial to choose words carefully to convey the intended meaning clearly and accurately.

Though it is context specific, it really isn't applicable to this one, considering how there really isn't any specifications of naturality in the verse.

(Also, I am sorry for sending this late, I had a powercut at this hour. )

 

[Vzearr]

ChatGPT regards usage of both the words as generally contradictory and contextually dependent as well.

Spoiler: nerdy stuff

(ChatGPT response)
Using the words "unrealistic" and "natural" to describe the same thing would generally be contradictory or at least confusing in most contexts. Here’s why:

1. Meaning Contrast:
- Unrealistic: This typically implies something that does not conform to reality or is improbable. It suggests that the thing in question doesn't happen or exist in the natural order of things.
- Natural: This usually refers to something that occurs in nature, conforms to natural laws, or is innate and inherent.

2. Contextual Use:
- "Unrealistic" is often used to critique ideas, plans, or depictions that seem impractical or unlikely to happen in real life.
- "Natural" is used to describe phenomena, characteristics, or processes that are expected, intrinsic, or occurring without human intervention.

3. Examples of Contradiction:
- Describing a painting as "unrealistic" suggests it doesn’t accurately portray real-life scenes or proportions.
- Describing the same painting as "natural" would imply it captures the essence of reality or nature.

4. Semantic Clash:
- The words "unrealistic" and "natural" have opposite connotations, leading to confusion if used together or interchangeably.

In summary, while language can be flexible and context-dependent, using "unrealistic" and "natural" to describe the same thing would generally be considered contradictory. They imply fundamentally different perspectives on whether something aligns with reality or nature. It's crucial to choose words carefully to convey the intended meaning clearly and accurately.

Though it is context specific, it really isn't applicable to this one, considering how there really isn't any specifications of naturality in the verse.

(Also, I am sorry for sending this late, I had a powercut at this hour. )

I'd not use ChatGPT since the engine contradicts itself constantly. Something like winning the lottery can come naturally but its unrealistic (you can ask ChatGPT that and it'd agree). Using natural and unrealistic to describe the same thing is a bit weird in a lot of contexts though.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

ChatGPT regards usage of both the words as generally contradictory and contextually dependent as well.

Spoiler: nerdy stuff

(ChatGPT response)
Using the words "unrealistic" and "natural" to describe the same thing would generally be contradictory or at least confusing in most contexts. Here’s why:

1. Meaning Contrast:
- Unrealistic: This typically implies something that does not conform to reality or is improbable. It suggests that the thing in question doesn't happen or exist in the natural order of things.
- Natural: This usually refers to something that occurs in nature, conforms to natural laws, or is innate and inherent.

2. Contextual Use:
- "Unrealistic" is often used to critique ideas, plans, or depictions that seem impractical or unlikely to happen in real life.
- "Natural" is used to describe phenomena, characteristics, or processes that are expected, intrinsic, or occurring without human intervention.

3. Examples of Contradiction:
- Describing a painting as "unrealistic" suggests it doesn’t accurately portray real-life scenes or proportions.
- Describing the same painting as "natural" would imply it captures the essence of reality or nature.

4. Semantic Clash:
- The words "unrealistic" and "natural" have opposite connotations, leading to confusion if used together or interchangeably.

In summary, while language can be flexible and context-dependent, using "unrealistic" and "natural" to describe the same thing would generally be considered contradictory. They imply fundamentally different perspectives on whether something aligns with reality or nature. It's crucial to choose words carefully to convey the intended meaning clearly and accurately.

Yeah no, the second you pulled out ChatGPT to argue a point is the second you lost. I'm with Dino on this. I'll comment a bit more on this once I'm off work

 

[RoggerReggor]

Eh, might've made a mistake there. But King's and Johan's feats about instigating fear on people are a sole example on how characters can induce fear with natural causes, even though the effects of the fear are almost impossible to perform irl.

Nope, they aren't sole example. Kiyotaka has a feat of instigating fear as well, where he beat up Ryuuen, and wanted him to "feel fear" via subjecting him to violence, but that's just contextually dependent. Going through this, there really isn't anything which shows that King is even on the same level as Kiyotaka in terms of social influencing, much like he has even performed anything better than Kiyotaka as you mentioned. Johan is fair but his instigating fear into Richard which I think is his best fear instigating fear in action was also due to him catching his corrupt behavior and basically having destroyed his life.

I don't care what buncha yt shorts content creators say about a character's traits so I think I'll be passing on that.

My friend isn't a "YT shorts" creator though, and being a YT shorts creator doesn't make someone fundamentally wrong.

I was tryna show you how fear via natural causes can have an outcome that is almost impossible to perform irl. I'm not trying to compare Ayanokouji with him.

My guy you are legit debating against a feat and illustrating an example, so it is kind of necessary for me to prove that there's no comparison between them. Kiyotaka no diffs King in Social Influencing, period.

Killing a villian with only fear is pretty much impossible to do irl, but King did that via instigating fear from a natural cause (his "strenght"). I never said Social Influencing can be achieved via supernatural cause, I just said it can lead to something that's impossible to perform irl.

That isn't impossible IRL, many people have died from heart attacks by giving in to fear, jumpscares in horror games are found to naturally increase someone's heart rate by a lot, and some people have even gone through stuff through just that.

I just gave that example to show flowery language. You don't have to compare everything I say with the feat as I'm just giving you an example.

Alright. But that's unrelated to and shouldn't be done.

Hirata visually doesn't look really stable in the anime scene either so idk why you brought this up to prove your point really. The "You think I'm gonna tell you everything?" just sounds like an unstable defense mechanism, more than actually showing willpower and resistance. Ayanokouji even stated that Hirata was "begging to be saved" but couldn't do it, but still was in his limit so Ayanokouji had to encourage him with his eyes to make him reveal his secrets.

That's just weak character psychology interpretation. "Begging to be saved" isn't an excuse for a character to be mentally weak. Hirata is going through his hard time, but that still doesn't make him "mentally weak". That's like saying Guts (Berserk) is a mentally weak character every time he goes through a hard time, though the entire story is him only becoming mentally stronger and stronger, and have a stoic mentality.

Now, going through this scene, Kiyotaka didn't "encourage him", he was kind of having Hirata feel fear and spill his secrets. "Encourage" is a completely wrong word, Kiyotaka wasn't doing any motivation here, he was literally making Hirata feel threatened. While he did use the word himself, it isn't motivation in my regard.

Doubling the anime scene with Ayanokouji's reading of Hirata's emotions, it's pretty much clear that Hirata isn't even in the right mind to resist Ayanokouji's glare.

Again no, as said above.

Yeah, thanks for agreeing with me that he isn't in the right mind. It's obvious that he's pretty much at his limit in terms of hanging on despite his trauma.

I am not agreeing with you. I am saying that not being in your right mind doesn't make it up for vulnerable to this ability.

Nice for you to just ignore anything else I said.

When did I ignore your point? I have answered it already. Your basic stance was that Ryuuen was only throwing water on Kei, which is wrong, or have you mentioned anything else?

That just makes Ayanokouji's gaze more terrifying than Ryuuen's tortures (which aren't really that brutal of a torture, per say. An irl person can very likely endure cold water getting poured on them in a cold enviroment), which doesn't prove that Ayanokouji's way of inducing fear is supernatural, as Ryuuen's torture isn't supernatural either.

See here, you yourself said that what Ryuuen did to Kei wasn't torture and compared that to an IRL person. I only tried to show how much Ryuuen did.

That is not even slightly correct.

We are arguing about "effect of cause", and not "cause of effect", that's why I interchanged them. I am in no way challenging vocabulary through that, I am well aware cause is an action and effect are a reaction or a consequence.

Like I said, the cause of the fear in this feat is completely natural, having a scary gaze, and even the outcome is pretty natural.

Then why is that person feeling darkness, or having describe it as "being eroded" instead of just feeling fear?

He actually needs to, or his ability has to be highly implied to be supernatural. I don't really see that in these scenes, at all.

It is implied to be supernatural. There's nothing natural in being

Even the Social Influencing page you appearently helped making explains this:

Ayanokouji's gaze and eyes are stated to be scary more than one time. Having scary eyes is not ******* Fear Manipulation for god's sake.

I have also made a reply to the thread about how Kiyotaka's appearance isn't naturally scary, and if you are really using anime, then he doesn't change his facial expressions and the art remains the same even when he is described as "shooting his glare".

I never said this, it was just your own wrong interperation.

Nah, you were arguing about how there is supernatural "Social Influencing", or were you not?

Both Fear Inducement and Social Influencing have the same outcome; Causing fear, though the cause of the fear in Social Influencing is natural, and the word "natural" in my interperation refers to things that can exist irl; as a scary appearence, higher authority, overwhelming strength and demanour etc.

Kiyotaka didn't use any higher authority, and doesn't have a scary appearance, overwhelming strength or anything, and going by the anime, we know he doesn't change his facial expressions in the entire scene, neither does the art change, and in reality, Hirata was even angry on Kiyotaka for this.

Fear Inducement causes on the other hand are things that can't exist irl. Things like a superpower that has something to do with fear, a hax ability, a state a character gets into via supernatural causes scaring other people, etc.

And meanwhile Fear Instigating is what Kiyotaka was doing to Kei in the entire scene, but he just shot his glare to have her reveal all of her secrets, which is a separate thing from what he was doing the entire time.

Now I'll give you two examples to help clear things:

1. Character A can make people visualize a monster with a glare and terrify them, where Character M has a curse (which are supernatural) inflicted on them which makes them release an aura that makes people visualize a monster and terrify them as well.

Character A qualifies for Instigating fear, Character M qualifies Fear Manipulation, even though the outcomes of the fear between the two are the same.

Both are supernatural. People don't "naturally" have eyes which makes others visualize a monster. Yes, people can have eyes which can make the other feel uncomfortable, but I don't think I need to make it known again and again about how we are talking about making someone terrified to the point of having them REVEAL THEIR SECRETS which is neither normal, nor natural.

If we have people like that IRL who "naturally exist" and are not "supernatural", then we would be already using them to have criminals confess their crimes, or reveal their secrets.

2. Character A can make someone absouletely terrified for their life with a glare, Character B has a special superpower which they can use to induce fear in other people, although it just makes people slightly uncomfortable than normal.

Character A qualifies for Instigating fear where Character B qualifies for Fear Manipulation, even though the outcome of Character A's fear is objectively superior to Character B.

Context-dependent. If Character A did it with no preparation (like psychologically damaging the affected, or getting them in a situation where they "naturally" would feel fear), and if the affected person wasn't naturally vulnerable to Character A's glare, and it works for everyone, then both are potent supernaturally.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Yeah no, the second you pulled out ChatGPT to argue a point is the second you lost. I'm with Dino on this. I'll comment a bit more on this once I'm off work

I am arguing vocabulary and not all the points (though the point of argument wasn't even pertaining to the debate and was just related with a minor confusion of regarding the feat). I can understand the "AI is dumb." part, but ChatGPT is actually pretty good with languages. I learnt like half of my regional language (might not reveal that considering how my region can be guessed) through AI and I am able to communicate well with others and even learn a basic part of it.

Also, just saying that just because someone used ChatGPT to argue some random point not pertaining to the debate means they lost the entire debate is not the best of things.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Another one, but this just mentions the darkness part and Kiyotaka doesn't use it to make Tsukishiro feel fear.

"Those eyes... really look like him. Eyes with horror and deep darkness. Eyes like that are things that cannot be copied by any White Room students, no matter how talented they are...!!" Concluding that conversation more than this is pointless. Tsukishiro turned around and left.


(Year 1 Volume 11.5)

Here, Tsukishiro and Kiyotaka are talking about general stuff, and Tsukishiro is threatening Kiyotaka about getting him expelled the next here.

And Tsukishiro also mentions that Kiyotaka has eyes which show horror and deep darkness. This is only a mention of his eyes (which he uses actively), and he doesn't use it to throw his glare.

 

[Dinozxd]

Nope, they aren't sole example.

**** my vocabulary really is bad

I meant to say they were one of the many examples of insitigating fear.

My friend isn't a "YT shorts" creator though, and being a YT shorts creator doesn't make someone fundamentally wrong.

Yeah it doesn't, but I still genuinely don't care about their opinions.

My guy you are legit debating against a feat and illustrating an example, so it is kind of necessary for me to prove that there's no comparison between them. Kiyotaka no diffs King in Social Influencing, period.

We aren't comparing King's Fear Instigating feat and Koji's. I'm just saying that King can perform a Insitigating Fear feat, and make an outcome that is really hard to reach irl.

I really don't ******* care about Ayanokouji soloing fiction in Social Influencing, man. I don't have to praise Koji's abilities between every two sentences I type.

That isn't impossible IRL, many people have died from heart attacks by giving in to fear, jumpscares in horror games are found to naturally increase someone's heart rate by a lot, and some people have even gone through stuff through just that.

So for one, fear triggering a heart attack which kills people isn't dying because of fear directly. Like if you throw a grenade and blow up a building, It's not you that blew it up, it's the grenade. So in conclusion, those deaths are caused by heart attacks, not fear directly. King does not do that.

And even if they are, I bet those are either humans who have suffered a heart attack before, or have problems with their heart. A healthy person wouldn't die of a heart attack after getting scared.

That's just weak character psychology interpretation. "Begging to be saved" isn't an excuse for a character to be mentally weak. Hirata is going through his hard time, but that still doesn't make him "mentally weak". That's like saying Guts (Berserk) is a mentally weak character every time he goes through a hard time, though the entire story is him only becoming mentally stronger and stronger, and have a stoic mentality.

He might not be mentally weak entirely, but the context suggests that he's in a bad mental state when he was talking to Ayanokouji.

Now, going through this scene, Kiyotaka didn't "encourage him", he was kind of having Hirata feel fear and spill his secrets. "Encourage" is a completely wrong word, Kiyotaka wasn't doing any motivation here, he was literally making Hirata feel threatened. While he did use the word himself, it isn't motivation in my regard.

Well he both says "threatning" and "encouraging" in the scene, which are both very natural things imo.

I am not agreeing with you. I am saying that not being in your right mind doesn't make it up for vulnerable to this ability.

An overall very strong willed person can become depressed at some points of their life, which is what I think happened to Hirata. He might be a strong willed person overall, but it's obvious that he's in a bad state in the scene with Koji.

Kind people can do bad things when they're pushed to their limits. It's just how human mind works.

When did I ignore your point? I have answered it already. Your basic stance was that Ryuuen was only throwing water on Kei, which is wrong, or have you mentioned anything else?

See here, you yourself said that what Ryuuen did to Kei wasn't torture and compared that to an IRL person. I only tried to show how much Ryuuen did.

My main point is how Ryuuen's tortures aren't supernatural, so even if Koji can get through her willpower with his glare, it doesn't make his glare supernatural.

Then why is that person feeling darkness, or having describe it as "being eroded" instead of just feeling fear?

Flowery language is a thing like I said. He's not actually being "eroded by darkness" , even in the anime.

I have also made a reply to the thread about how Kiyotaka's appearance isn't naturally scary,

A normal or cute looking character suddenly turning evil or scary is a common fiction trobe. Ayanokouji doesn't have to always look scary for him to be able to appear scary ijncertain scenes (idk if i explained this well).

and if you are really using anime, then he doesn't change his facial expressions and the art remains the same even when he is described as "shooting his glare".

Shooting a glare doesn't really require facial expressions to change, it's just looking at someone.

Nah, you were arguing about how there is supernatural "Social Influencing", or were you not?

No.

Kiyotaka didn't use any higher authority, and doesn't have a scary appearance, overwhelming strength or anything, and going by the anime, we know he doesn't change his facial expressions in the entire scene, neither does the art change, and in reality, Hirata was even angry on Kiyotaka for this.

He has a scary feature, which is his eyes or glare so he just used that. Don't think making eye contact with someone requires facial expressions to change.

And meanwhile Fear Instigating is what Kiyotaka was doing to Kei in the entire scene, but he just shot his glare to have her reveal all of her secrets, which is a separate thing from what he was doing the entire time.

Don't you see how contradictive that is? Why does he go around doing the Instigating fear stuff when he can just make her talk with a glare?

Both are supernatural. People don't "naturally" have eyes which makes others visualize a monster. Yes, people can have eyes which can make the other feel uncomfortable, but I don't think I need to make it known again and again about how we are talking about making someone terrified to the point of having them REVEAL THEIR SECRETS which is neither normal, nor natural.

You're missing the point entirely. While the outcome of the fear Character A induces is pretty much impossible to perform irl, the cause of it is their glare, and everyone can shoot up a glare and intimidate a person, which is Insitigating Fear too and making them visualize a monster via a glare would be Instigating Fear as well, just a superior form of it.

If we have people like that IRL who "naturally exist" and are not "supernatural", then we would be already using them to have criminals confess their crimes, or reveal their secrets.

Already explained how a person like that may not exist, but this is just a bad example regardless as it's a whole big assumption.

Context-dependent. If Character A did it with no preparation (like psychologically damaging the affected, or getting them in a situation where they "naturally" would feel fear), and if the affected person wasn't naturally vulnerable to Character A's glare, and it works for everyone, then both are potent supernaturally.

Well then we disagree here, sadly.

Another one, but this just mentions the darkness part and Kiyotaka doesn't use it to make Tsukishiro feel fear.
Here, Tsukishiro and Kiyotaka are talking about general stuff, and Tsukishiro is threatening Kiyotaka about getting him expelled the next here.

And Tsukishiro also mentions that Kiyotaka has eyes which show horror and deep darkness. This is only a mention of his eyes (which he uses actively), and he doesn't use it to throw his glare.

This just proves my point more as Ayanokouji canonically has very scary eyes that show horror and terror to people when he "lets people see them" according to Hirata.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Also, just saying that just because someone used ChatGPT to argue some random point not pertaining to the debate means they lost the entire debate is not the best of things.

That was mainly ment to be a joke, though you still shouldn't use ChatGPT for stuff like that, there's better resources for grammer.

So from reading previous arguements, it seems like a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that Ayano has "supernatural" fear inducement, which is leading RoggerReggor to think that it's fear manipulation. So from what I can tell, this is a case of miscommunication.

But the thing is, having superhumanly good social influencing doesn't automatically grant you fear manipulation. The definition of Fear Manipulation is "the ability in which to inflict a level of "fear" on the target using supernatural means."

This means that in order to qualify for Fear Manipulation, you have to directly be able to scare someone using a supernatural power, whether that be some form of mind manipulation, empathic manipulation, or some other form of magic/superpowers/whatever wacky shit the creators want to throw into their verse.

Fear inducement isn't done by any supernatural superpowers or magic, it's done via charisma and intimidation. Real people can be intimidating and scary looking. I'll give you an example.

(Scopophobia warning)

This guy in this photo looks a bit creepy, right? If it doesn't creep you out, you can at least understand why someone might be unsettled by this photo, right? This photo is not supernatural, it's not using any magic or superpowers or anything to be creepy, the guy just looks scary. Assuming he can scare a lot of people with his face alone, that would be Fear inducement via Social Influencing. Even if you amped his creepiness up to inhuman levels where even the most battle hardened and brave people are terrified of it, that would still just be Social Influencing and not fear manipulation, as he's not using anything supernatural, he just looks like that.

Simply having good enough SI to scare someone into giving you information doesn't qualify as fear manipulation. Even if you can scare that person through sheer SI better than any human on earth ever could and to a supernatural level, that doesn't mean that you're doing it through supernatural means, you're just better at Social Influencing than any other person on earth.

And that's what Ayano is doing here. His eyes aren't channeling some supernatural power, he just has creepy looking eyes in-verse. That's it. Unless you can supply 100% solid proof outside of just fluffy language that he's actually using some supernatural power or mind manipulation or something, then he just has creepy looking eyes and can make people tell him stuff with just his appearance alone. Just because no other human has good enough SI in real life to replicate that feat doesn't mean that Ayano is automatically using some supernatural power that has never been described, he's just got better Social Influencing than real people. And even that, I would argue against. Humans have had some absolutley bonkers SI feats IRL that are honestly more impressive than just scaring people into telling you what you want. Police interogators do that stuff all the time. But this is off topic. Point is, even if he had supernatural levels of Fear Inducement, doesn't mean he's doing it through supernatural means.

Also, COTE seems to be a very grounded in reality verse. A lot of the characters know real life martial arts and can preform feats real life martial arts masters can do, most of their pressure points are real pressure points, their AnPr is based off of things real athletes can do, it seems like a really grounded and realistic verse, just amped up quite a bit, to the point of where these high school characters can do these very real things, such as martial arts & AnPr, just better than any human irl could realistically do. So tell me, why would it make any sense for this very realistic & grounded verse to suddenly have its characters have superpowers? And not just doing things supernaturally well like fighting or reading people, but actual Marvel Comics level superpowers?

Saying that Ayano is using magical Fear Manipulation doesn't work with the verse, as this verse clearly hasn't established that superhero bullshit exists like that. Every other ability listed here is something that a real human can do, just amped up to the extreme. So why would it make any sense for superpowers like this to suddenly exist? Do other flat-out superpowers exist? Is someone out here flying & shooting lasers from their eyes like superman? Is someone crawling up walls like Spider-Man? No. All of the hacks & abilities presented throughout the series are all abilities that exist irl, just to the extreme. All Ayano is doing is just intimidating someone really damn well, beyond what any real human could do (in theory. Again, not going to go over how broken real life SI is, that's not important). But real humans can intimidate each other and have fear inducement. Ayano is just using the same strategies that real people use to intimidate each other, he's just better at it than any of them.

TL;DR: Unless Marvel Comics level superpowers are consistantly a thing in COTE, Ayano is just really really good at intimidating people. That's still just social influencing but to a (debatebly) supernatural extent.

Also not that it matters but King f*cking curbstomps Ayano in Social Influencing to the point that it's not even funny, but again, that's not important to this debate. Idk why you guys kept going in this back & forth between that, all that did was prove nothing and get you guys nowhere. How good Kings SI is in comparison to Ayanos doesn't matter lol

 

[RoggerReggor]

**** my vocabulary really is bad

I meant to say they were one of the many examples of insitigating fear.

Bro, I got confused by "these are the sole examples of instigating fear" line.

Yeah it doesn't, but I still genuinely don't care about their opinions.

Most YT shorts creators are lowkey bad either way though, so fair.

We aren't comparing King's Fear Instigating feat and Koji's. I'm just saying that King can perform a Insitigating Fear feat, and make an outcome that is really hard to reach irl.

I really don't ******* care about Ayanokouji soloing fiction in Social Influencing, man. I don't have to praise Koji's abilities between every two sentences I type.

You were comparing his ability though?

So for one, fear triggering a heart attack which kills people isn't dying because of fear directly. Like if you throw a grenade and blow up a building, It's not you that blew it up, it's the grenade. So in conclusion, those deaths are caused by heart attacks, not fear directly. King does not do that.

It's still fear which caused the heart attack.

And the second thing is that if I throw a grenade and blow up a building, then the police isn't arresting the grenade, but me, which totally means I am still somewhat responsible, though the cause might not be my doing, the plan was originally mine.

And even if they are, I bet those are either humans who have suffered a heart attack before, or have problems with their heart. A healthy person wouldn't die of a heart attack after getting scared.

Yes, it's obvious that it would be more effective in people with lying health problems already, but you get the point. King is however better, but this doesn't mean he's good at Social Influencing now, he's just triggering an unnatural death. That would be like the Medusa case where she turns people to rocks. The cause of it may or may not be the Social Influencing, but again, it's related to the "plan example" I gave above. And many times, the stuff like King is just a GAG scene, like many characters get nosebleeds by looking at characters being angry or smth, but yeah, COTE is far from having any GAG scenes. The most GAG scenic it becomes is during decimal parts volumes.

He might not be mentally weak entirely, but the context suggests that he's in a bad mental state when he was talking to Ayanokouji.

Saying this again, being in a "bad mental state" doesn't mean you would go around throwing information which you would normally hide just randomly.

My main point is how Ryuuen's tortures aren't supernatural, so even if Koji can get through her willpower with his glare, it doesn't make his glare supernatural.

It is supernatural. He is sending darkness, and not make someone "imagine" darkness, which is different from making a use of your normal appearance/demeanor.

Flowery language is a thing like I said. He's not actually being "eroded by darkness" , even in the anime.

The anime just cut their conversation and Ayanokouji's thoughts regarding that, so it was just "darkness" talk, and not what it did.

A normal or cute looking character suddenly turning evil or scary is a common fiction trobe. Ayanokouji doesn't have to always look scary for him to be able to appear scary ijncertain scenes (idk if i explained this well).

Yeah, but he hardly changes it when he did so.

Shooting a glare doesn't really require facial expressions to change, it's just looking at someone.

That would make it seem like Kiyotaka is 24/7 just glaring at people.

And all of them would be naturally scared.

My main point is that Kiyotaka isn't doing anything like thinning of his eye area or anything (basically what is done every time for a serious glare).

He has a scary feature, which is his eyes or glare so he just used that. Don't think making eye contact with someone requires facial expressions to change.

No. Many people talk to him by just looking into his eyes, and he himself implied that he could consciously send darkness to someone, and make them feel its horror, to the point of their own darkness coming out.

Don't you see how contradictive that is? Why does he go around doing the Instigating fear stuff when he can just make her talk with a glare?

He used it only two times, and that was when he wasn't having any leads. Kiyotaka is a conservative person, and he also hides his abilities, so if people were to go around and say "This dude has this kind of eyes." then that would be a big problem. More

You're missing the point entirely. While the outcome of the fear Character A induces is pretty much impossible to perform irl, the cause of it is their glare, and everyone can shoot up a glare and intimidate a person, which is Insitigating Fear too and making them visualize a monster via a glare would be Instigating Fear as well, just a superior form of it.

Already explained how a person like that may not exist, but this is just a bad example regardless as it's a whole big assumption.

Well then we disagree here, sadly.

Alright, I will just say this. I was comparing character A to Kiyotaka. Character A possesses a feature in their appearance (in the first case), meanwhile Kiyotaka doesn't. He is mentioned to have eyes which are not scary, but his eyes possess "darkness" and "horror". There's a difference between both, eyes making someone imagine darkness may be natural as it may make someone remember something scary, but darkness being possessed in eyes which can cause someone to have their darkness eroded as well, is something which is completely supernatural. There's a difference in making someone imagine stuff, and then possess that stuff to be imagined themselves.

This just proves my point more as Ayanokouji canonically has very scary eyes that show horror and terror to people when he "lets people see them" according to Hirata.

People see him many times directly into his eyes. There are many light novel illustrations and anime meetings both.

Tsukishiro is comparing Kiyotaka to his dad. And seeing this, it doesn't mean the eyes are scary, but Kiyotaka has just mastered them to use them to his advantage, and Tsukishiro mentioned it as well, they "possess" darkness and can radiate darkness, instead of making someone imagine something or someone scary.

 

[RoggerReggor]

That was mainly ment to be a joke, though you still shouldn't use ChatGPT for stuff like that, there's better resources for grammer.

Yes. I really tried to type on Google and search for it, but none of them mentioned it.

So from reading previous arguements, it seems like a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that Ayano has "supernatural" fear inducement, which is leading RoggerReggor to think that it's fear manipulation. So from what I can tell, this is a case of miscommunication.

Maybe so.

But the thing is, having superhumanly good social influencing doesn't automatically grant you fear manipulation. The definition of Fear Manipulation is "the ability in which to inflict a level of "fear" on the target using supernatural means."

I understand this one, yes. And I am not trying to change the definition of the ability, but show how Kiyotaka's ability is well into this sector.

This means that in order to qualify for Fear Manipulation, you have to directly be able to scare someone using a supernatural power, whether that be some form of mind manipulation, empathic manipulation, or some other form of magic/superpowers/whatever wacky shit the creators want to throw into their verse.

Yes, and the author of COTE has used the "wacky sh*t" of "darkness" into this. This is somehow into the sector of Mind Manipulation as well, considering how it's causing someone to reveal their secrets against their wills.

Fear inducement isn't done by any supernatural superpowers or magic, it's done via charisma and intimidation. Real people can be intimidating and scary looking. I'll give you an example. This guy in this photo looks a bit creepy, right?

First of all, you should put up a warning for people who go through scopophobia (the fear of being watched), considering how normal people may see it and not feel that intimidated, but people who go through that may even have a panic attack. I happen to know it because I did a presentation on phobias and causes behind them in my first year and when we were showing images which would intimidate people (and do worse to people who go through scopophobia), 2 people had panic attacks in the hall. Just that, yeah.

If it doesn't creep you out, you can at least understand why someone might be unsettled by this photo, right? This photo is not supernatural, it's not using any magic or superpowers or anything to be creepy, the guy just looks scary. Assuming he can scare a lot of people with his face alone, that would be Fear inducement via Social Influencing. Even if you amped his creepiness up to inhuman levels where even the most battle hardened and brave people are terrified of it, that would still just be Social Influencing and not fear manipulation, as he's not using anything supernatural, he just looks like that.

Yes, normal people would be unsettled or feel uncomfortable by that photo. It's called a "scopophobia" face and it is generally based on facial geometry, such as having big pupils, light smile, and more angular face, and all the faces will look creepy to you. It really isn't what is Kiyotaka's case though.

Simply having good enough SI to scare someone into giving you information doesn't qualify as fear manipulation. Even if you can scare that person through sheer SI better than any human on earth ever could and to a supernatural level, that doesn't mean that you're doing it through supernatural means, you're just better at Social Influencing than any other person on earth.

And that's what Ayano is doing here. His eyes aren't channeling some supernatural power, he just has creepy looking eyes in-verse. That's it. Unless you can supply 100% solid proof outside of just fluffy language that he's actually using some supernatural power or mind manipulation or something, then he just has creepy looking eyes and can make people tell him stuff with just his appearance alone. Just because no other human has good enough SI in real life to replicate that feat doesn't mean that Ayano is automatically using some supernatural power that has never been described, he's just got better Social Influencing than real people. And even that, I would argue against. Humans have had some absolutley bonkers SI feats IRL that are honestly more impressive than just scaring people into telling you what you want. Police interogators do that stuff all the time. But this is off topic. Point is, even if he had supernatural levels of Fear Inducement, doesn't mean he's doing it through supernatural means.

I think you are mistaken here. He not only did use his eyes to scare the crap out of someone, but also used them to reveal their secrets (when they weren't ready to do it), which would be messing up with their mind. Also, he doesn't have an appearance which makes him look like it. It would be talent/genes which makes your eyes' appearance like that. But upon data, we know that no one can possess those eyes, no matter how talented they are, which would mean that they aren't possessable naturally, and they radiate darkness, they don't make others imagine darkness. This is all real things revealed in the plot, and not my theory. You can take a good look at the scans and see for yourself.

Also, COTE seems to be a very grounded in reality verse. A lot of the characters know real life martial arts and can preform feats real life martial arts masters can do, most of their pressure points are real pressure points, their AnPr is based off of things real athletes can do, it seems like a really grounded and realistic verse, just amped up quite a bit, to the point of where these high school characters can do these very real things, such as martial arts & AnPr, just better than any human irl could realistically do. So tell me, why would it make any sense for this very realistic & grounded verse to suddenly have its characters have superpowers? And not just doing things supernaturally well like fighting or reading people, but actual Marvel Comics level superpowers?

No. A COTE character doesn't have an AnPr which can be done IRL, none of the athletes IRL would even be Ichika level, but only Suzune's level at best, which is peak human AnPr.

A COTE character like Kouenji can detect heat changes and heat emitted by someone's body to tell their power levels. A character like Kiyotaka has a 6th sense to detect presences around him. A character like Nanase has dynamic visual acuity which allows her to go stiff and defend against any attack processions which may be much, much faster than her. A character like Takuya can detect lies of people by talking to them, doesn't matter how good they are to hide their emotions. In fact, if you really want to see more and more supernatural stuff, Nanase in Year 2 Volume 3 was theoretically possessed by the spirit of a boy, though it might just be an act, but it still becomes another personality of her, and it was duly noted that when she activated it, her physical power increased.

So, COTE characters do happen to be "not very grounded" in reality but happen to be a verse which is of people with some talents which are supernatural, and they exist in the verse's supposed "reality".

Saying that Ayano is using magical Fear Manipulation doesn't work with the verse, as this verse clearly hasn't established that superhero bullshit exists like that. Every other ability listed here is something that a real human can do, just amped up to the extreme. So why would it make any sense for superpowers like this to suddenly exist? Do other flat-out superpowers exist? Is someone out here flying & shooting lasers from their eyes like superman? Is someone crawling up walls like Spider-Man? No. All of the hacks & abilities presented throughout the series are all abilities that exist irl, just to the extreme. All Ayano is doing is just intimidating someone really damn well, beyond what any real human could do (in theory. Again, not going to go over how broken real life SI is, that's not important). But real humans can intimidate each other and have fear inducement. Ayano is just using the same strategies that real people use to intimidate each other, he's just better at it than any of them.

No, this is just bad logic. Just because a COTE character doesn't happen to be supernatural to the extent of a Marvel superhero doesn't invalidate their feats.

TL;DR: Unless Marvel Comics level superpowers are consistantly a thing in COTE, Ayano is just really really good at intimidating people. That's still just social influencing but to a (debatebly) supernatural extent.

It isn't "debatably" supernatural, it's supernatural outright, even Dino agreed with it. Kiyotaka went up to someone, caused them to feel fear by threatening them of assaulting them, then realized that they were still hiding something, then used his eyes (which I would say that he was already looking at the affected from before, it is just that he radiated his darkness around at that point) and then really overwhelmed them with fear and caused them to reveal those secrets. If this is not messing with someone's mind, I don't know what is.

Also not that it matters but King f*cking curbstomps Ayano in Social Influencing to the point that it's not even funny, but again, that's not important to this debate. Idk why you guys kept going in this back & forth between that, all that did was prove nothing and get you guys nowhere. How good Kings SI is in comparison to Ayanos doesn't matter lol

Spoiler: yap

Haha no. King only has feats in leadership and fear instigating, which are minimal. Kiyotaka from any single volume worth of feats from Year 2 arc would be an overkill for King. Not to mention, King isn't fundamentally "a very smart character who controls the entire verse in his palms" kind of person. You should really read COTE lol.

And yes, I don't really see the need to debate this in this context, it was Dino who brought up that these characters had better Social Influencing than Kiyotaka and that was just an unworthy comparison, which didn't go into too much derailing, and yes, should likely stop. If you really want, you can do a King vs Kiyotaka matchup as a VS thread in any general outsmarting scenario with prior knowledge and I will just use Kiyotaka's feats from Year 2 Volume 7, and still prove how badly Kiyotaka stomps in that. Yes, you might think that I am glazing Kiyotaka, which is fine, but I am not saying Kiyotaka solos fiction in Social Influencing. Batman (literally all keys and versions), Sora, Dazai, Fang Yuan, Akiyama, Hannibal, Patrick are just the few of the characters who stomp Kiyotaka in Social Influencing with no diff (maybe not the last three, but they still take it), and I can possibly name a hundred.

At last, the debate about Kiyotaka being compared to others should be stopped.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can someone TLDR the arguments and counterarguments, way to much text to read.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Can someone TLDR the arguments and counterarguments, way to much text to read.

Same

 

[Dinozxd]

Bro, I got confused by "these are the sole examples of instigating fear" line.

Yeah but I didn't mean it that way. Sorry about that.

Most YT shorts creators are lowkey bad either way though, so fair.

"Let's finish this debate once and for all" ahh people

You were comparing his ability though?

No, but I just showed the feat as an example of a person being able to induce fear via natural means, but still perform feats that are very hard to perform irl.

It's still fear which caused the heart attack.

The person still doesn't directly cause the death via fear, they just cause the heart attack which causes death.

And the second thing is that if I throw a grenade and blow up a building, then the police isn't arresting the grenade, but me, which totally means I am still somewhat responsible, though the cause might not be my doing, the plan was originally mine.

Wtf does this have do with what I said? You still don't explode the building, you throw the grenade and the grenade explodes it. The point is how you do NOT cause the explosion directly.

Yes, it's obvious that it would be more effective in people with lying health problems already, but you get the point. King is however better, but this doesn't mean he's good at Social Influencing now, he's just triggering an unnatural death. That would be like the Medusa case where she turns people to rocks. The cause of it may or may not be the Social Influencing, but again, it's related to the "plan example" I gave above. And many times, the stuff like King is just a GAG scene, like many characters get nosebleeds by looking at characters being angry or smth, but yeah, COTE is far from having any GAG scenes. The most GAG scenic it becomes is during decimal parts volumes.

I mean the whole One Punch Man series is pretty much a gag series, but it doesn't mean that the feats they perform are invalid in any way.

Saying this again, being in a "bad mental state" doesn't mean you would go around throwing information which you would normally hide just randomly.

He isn't "throwing around information", he just hits his limit and Ayanokouji intimidates him to tell his secrets.

It is supernatural. He is sending darkness, and not make someone "imagine" darkness, which is different from making a use of your normal appearance/demeanor.

Cmon now. He doesn't actually send darkness in an actual sense. That's just how Hirata describes his glare. If I tell someone they have empty eyes, it doesn't actually mean that they don't have anything in their eyes.

The anime just cut their conversation and Ayanokouji's thoughts regarding that, so it was just "darkness" talk, and not what it did.

This still doesn't go aganist my stance on how it's flowery language.

Yeah, but he hardly changes it when he did so.

That was what I was talking about... His facial expressions don't have to change that much.

That would make it seem like Kiyotaka is 24/7 just glaring at people.

And all of them would be naturally scared.

My main point is that Kiyotaka isn't doing anything like thinning of his eye area or anything (basically what is done every time for a serious glare).

Watching the scene again, It's obvious that Ayanokouji at least looks more intimidating when he induced fear in Hirata, than he looked before he did as the scene visually implies that. Ayanokouji also has the weird ability to be able to look normal, then look absolutely intimidating all of a sudden, so this isn't anything new.

No. Many people talk to him by just looking into his eyes, and he himself implied that he could consciously send darkness to someone, and make them feel its horror, to the point of their own darkness coming out.

Like I said, being able to talk with an intimidating person normally while they don't look intimidating doesn't make their intimidation weaker nor make it supernatural in any way.

He used it only two times, and that was when he wasn't having any leads. Kiyotaka is a conservative person, and he also hides his abilities, so if people were to go around and say "This dude has this kind of eyes." then that would be a big problem. More

You're right here I guess. The thing is though, it's just weird for a dude who has fear inducement tries to induce fear into people via normal means, rather than using their fear inducement.

Meanwhile Kiyotaka doesn't. He is mentioned to have eyes which are not scary, but his eyes possess "darkness" and "horror". There's a difference between both, eyes making someone imagine darkness may be natural as it may make someone remember something scary, but darkness being possessed in eyes which can cause someone to have their darkness eroded as well, is something which is completely supernatural. There's a difference in making someone imagine stuff, and then possess that stuff to be imagined themselves.

I think I already talked about the flowery language part and how the anime does not depict any darkness being eroded in Hirata in any way, he simply gets scared. That's the ability. When you minus the flowery language part, this is just some good old intimidation, although it's definitely superior to normal intimidation feats.

Tsukishiro is comparing Kiyotaka to his dad. And seeing this, it doesn't mean the eyes are scary, but Kiyotaka has just mastered them to use them to his advantage, and Tsukishiro mentioned it as well, they "possess" darkness and can radiate darkness, instead of making someone imagine something or someone scary.

Think I already explained this one before. The darkness parts are just an exxaggaration and they are just written to show how intimidating Ayanokouji's eyes are.

People see him many times directly into his eyes. There are many light novel illustrations and anime meetings both.

Already explained this one.

 

[Dinozxd]

even Dino agreed with it.

Also this is just bad interperation. I only stated that Instigating Fear feats as a whole can be fairly unrealistic, even though the fear gets induced via natural means every human posseses. Fear Manipulation on the other hand, has the fear induced via completely supernatural means I already gave examples on above.